I'd be interested to know who made the programme. Certain church groups have different views about crosses, especially the one Jesus died on. One group calls it .
a stake instead of a cross. (the word crucify indicates a cross, I.e. two lines crossed)

Whatever it was like, it was a slow and painful death.

I'd be interested to know who made the programme. Certain church groups have different views about crosses, especially the one Jesus died on. One group calls it a stake instead of a cross. (the word crucify indicates a cross, I.e. two lines crossed)

Interestingly, also in Judea, the shape of the cross changed to reflect the shorter trees in that region, into an X shape, shedding light on St Andrew's Cross, notably on the flag of Scotland.

According to last Friday's TV program (March 6th, 7.35 pm ADST) it was published in UK in 2019, under the title: The Crucifixion Mystery, Episode 3 of Season 6. Season 6 of this program consists of 6 episodes, & it seems to be called "Discover the Secrets of 5 of History's Greatest Treasures", but I could be wrong & will check it. You may find more information on SBS on Demand, on this site. It didn't cost me anything to join, but I'd be wary about this for people elsewhere in the world.

The two previous episodes were 1.The Viking Murder mystery, & 2. The mystery of Rome's Sunken City.

The synopsis of Episode 3 states: The stunning discovery of an executed man in Northern Italy reveals the brutal truth behind the Roman practice of crucifixion and sheds new light on the most famous crucifixion of all - the killing of Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 3:17 does mention it's better to suffer for good than evil, if it's God's will.

I've never understood people who reject God because life isn't perfect. Life on Earth isn't perfect because we aren't perfect. And the Bible makes it clear that we will endure suffering. Jesus was perfect, but he was still tortured and crucified by the very people he was here to save. And the early Christians didn't fare much better. And 2000 years later, Christianity is still being persecuted.

I however do understand that some people reject God out of ego/pride. We want to think that we're in control and powerful. I just think most people are misguided about their views on power. To me, anything that can be given or taken away is not power. It *must* be inherent. And there are only two things that fit that description: God's love and free will. Free will doesn't get enough credit. Going into sci-fi/fantasy nerdiness here for a moment, with alternate realities. They're always about what if B happened instead of A? But it's not that far-fetched, when we think about choices. We box ourselves into thinking our choices are just turn right or turn left. But you can go straight, make a U-turn or do donuts. And you can honk your horn and have your lights on. And have them on for varying lengths of time. And you can be singing to the radio while you're doing it. And you can keep changing stations every five minutes. Go forward five feet and then slam on your brakes. Each of those are the choices you have(just like it's the cop's choice to give you a ticket, but we're not going there ), and so many more. The power of the choice is so awesome, and it shows that God loves us enough to gift us a world of infinite possibilities.

I'm an "ex-vangelical". In fact, I'm really an agnostic now. The reason is, I've tried pursuing faith the evangelical way for nearly 40 years, starting with the "ask Jesus into my life" prayer when I was 17, and then praying over and over for God to guide me, reading the Bible to discover his will... and it didn't work. I've never heard God speak to me. The Bible, whilst interesting in places, was not written for me, and I don't agree with the way some people read it, like a Christianised version of a horoscope: open the book somewhere (usually according to some Bible reading notes or a "read the Bible in a year" plan) and then whatever you read must be God's word for you that day. I certainly don't believe it's somehow "magic" in that the reading and the learning from it automatically makes you a more spiritual person. I have a friend who's probably the most knowledgeable about the Bible of anyone I know, and he's also one of the most short-tempered and judgemental.

But what drove me away from the evangelical church was the unwillingness of people to be honest, and to listen to others without judging. Instead of admitting that they too might have struggles with their faith, they would cling to the Bible texts about having the victory in Jesus. Instead of listening to those expressing doubts or genuine problems, they would just keep quoting John 3:16 as if it were a spell they'd learned at Hogwarts. It's not fair to condemn people because they have a hard time believing because "life isn't perfect". For some, life is hell. They may have suffered from abusive relationships, or been made homeless, or inherited a serious medical condition. Yet the response I received from people in the church is that not knowing God is ALWAYS because of ego/pride. Blame The Victim! It's not the fault of the family members who mistreated you, or the thief who stole all your money, it's YOUR fault. If you don't hear God speaking to you, it's YOUR fault. In the past I've gone along with this, thinking, "Maybe it is me, maybe I am selfish," and sincerely asked God to change me; and still nothing changed.

I've always (certainly since I was 5) believed in a Creator God; to me it doesn't make sense that a universe as vast and as complex as this could suddenly spring into being with nothing to make it happen. But a lot of modern evangelism seems to me to be based on the premise that if you can convince people of the existence of a Creator God, then they will instantly believe that God loves them, and if they don't, just quoting John 3:16 will fix that. I've never heard anyone say "I don't believe in God because Schwarzschild's Equations clearly demonstrate that the nature of matter and energy is random". People say they don't believe because they can't reconcile an all-powerful and all-loving God with the state the world is in. It's too easy - dare I say, smug - just to say, "It's because of our sin". That may be the case, but it puts over a sense of really not caring about people's problems, only of wanting to get the unbeliever to agree with them and stop moaning.

Sorry. Rant over.

Are you directing your remarks to me, or just making a general post? Because if it was directed at me, I'm sorry you feel that way. Would you be offended if I prayed for you?

A bit of both, really. I wasn’t angry at you but your post was a trigger for me to say what I felt I wanted to say. I didn’t mean to be offensive. I don’t mind at all if you want to pray for me, though at the moment I don’t believe that prayer does any good.

@Kalta79
I believe the problem comes from reading verses saying God is loving and all-powerful, and then taking a look around the world at the suffering, and wondering why someone who loves us would allow us to suffer. If God is our Father, shouldn't he spare us? If you have a child, and they were diagnosed with cancer, wouldn't you try to move Heaven and Earth to take it away? To make it stop? Or....would you turn your head and tell them they are a human, they "deserve" this? This suffering will "build character?" If they die, "oh well, all humans are destined to die?" That would be cruel. But that it what many people see God as doing to his own children.

The truth is...a lot about the Bible and God's nature is not black and white, it is gray and complicated. It's great that some people have such assured answers, but it doesn't help the people who have - very reasonable - doubts about such things.

It doesn't mean you are wrong, but I do think we can be more understanding and have more empathy for people who struggle, and ultimately reject, God based on these notions. They have deep concerns and questions and are often met with "answers" like "It's a mystery!" or "Humans are lowly and deserve it!" Not helpful in the slightest.

@King_Erlian
I totally understand a lot of your issues. While I still identify as Christian, I'm fairly positive it looks quite different from many of the members here. I see the Bible and Christianity differently than how my parents see it, how the members of the church I went to growing up see it, and probably "American Christianity" in general.

I don't "hear God's voice," I never have. I question the stability of a person who claims such things. Also, reading the Bible to discern God's will...that has always been such a strange phrase to me. The Bible is a book full of history and wisdom...it's not a magical book like in the movies, where you read it and "Eureka! A plan for my life! This is what God wants me to do!" You will learn more about God and how to lead your life by actually living it. Making decisions and learning from your mistakes. At least that's how I see it. If God is present in all things, you experience God best out in the world, not locked up in a room reading the Bible all day.

The people in the Church has always been my biggest problem with Christianity too. My family has had extremely bad experiences with fellow Christians. It drove my father to eventually renounce all religion. Some were cruel and judgmental (I'm not talking a single church, I'm talking several churches). Others were nice but still had problems.

When someone answers a religious question I have with "I don't know, I'll need to look into it," or something similar, that is so much better to me than "It was meant to be a mystery, God doesn't want us to know everything because all will be revealed in Heaven!" When someone gives me that "answer," I immediately lose disrespect for them. That's neither an answer, nor does it show concern or empathy for the person asking.

And finally, I'll also echo that I have friends who don't deny the existence of God. They reject the notion of worshipping a God who - to them - seems cruel and unjust. And it doesn't come from a sense of pride, it comes from a sense of empathy and bewilderment.

If I were to describe my beliefs without any religious/spiritual terms, I believe in the truth. It never changes, just what we know of it does. That's why I said what I did. If atheism is correct, then life not being perfect because we're not perfect is true. Because there would be no such thing as perfection without God. If the Bible is correct, then there is suffering because humanity rejected God's word right from the beginning. He loves us enough to give us free will, because sure he could make us obey him without question(so we'd still be in the Garden of Eden), but making us mindless slaves is not love, it's abuse. With the power to make choices also comes the consequences of those choices. Humanity doesn't have a good track record with making good choices, we still can though. It would help if we remember we're the ocean instead of the beach. Because each grain of sand on the beach is forever separate from all the rest. The ocean is made of drops of water that are still unique, yet form a cohesive body. Hence the ripple effect.

I specifically said if the Bible is correct, not Christianity, because to me there is a distinct difference. Christianity is people following other people. But there have always been false 'prophets' and charlatans. We simply need to look in the Bible for the truth of God's word. If you don't understand it, find those who can help you, just make sure what they're saying isn't contradicted by the Bible. There are three passages that sum up my chosen path: Romans 13:9(For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”), Matthew 25: 32-40(32Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’), and John 16:33(I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.”).

That's all I have to say. God bless everybody!

...If you don't understand it, find those who can help you, just make sure what they're saying isn't contradicted by the Bible.

This can be self-defeating advice. It’s almost as if you are saying ‘find someone who understands it better than you until you find that you understand it better than them’.

I don’t think any of us can truly just look to the Bible for the answers, then once we get stuck, look to another to help us understand it, then check to see if that person’s responses contradict the Bible, because then you’re back to going based on your own understanding which could be flawed.

It's really cool to see this thread right after I join the community!

I had no idea there was a place for this inside the forum, so my thanks to you all already. I haven't read all the posts, but as expected I've seen many different views and backgrounds.
I am myself probably more in 'evangelical' group (although I'm Dutch and things are slightly different here). I enjoy reading the Bible, but also hold a strong belief in prayer and living in relation to God. I hope that's okay for the people that are in a different form of faith, as I have seen throughout this topic. I've had and have my struggles with God, the Bible and - naturally - especially the church, but I do consider myself a firm believer.

I don’t think any of us can truly just look to the Bible for the answers, then once we get stuck, look to another to help us understand it, then check to see if that person’s responses contradict the Bible, because then you’re back to going based on your own understanding which could be flawed.

I'd like to touch upon this. I understand where Kalta is coming from. I think the worst thing to do is try to figure out the Bible by yourself. We have many very wise and God-focused people in the world and 2000 years of church history. Although I do feel we talk too often and too scholarly about the details of the Bible, I think it's great to discuss it with others, then pray for its wisdom to be revealed and follow the conclusion that comes out of it.
I don't think one will lose his/her salvation over a misinterpreted doctrine, since most of our foundation in Christ should be enough to lead us on the right path; closer to God and His will. As long as you're searching God and seeking to know and follow Him, you will have a lifetime full of new insights.

That's not to say there aren't some tricky questions that have been raised, though. In my opinion, they're just not as numerous as we make them to be.

God bless!

P.S @Kalta Great choice using Matthew 25: 32-40 for your chosen path

Question:

When I was growing up (never you mind how long ago), I heard the expression:

Don't read your way out of your salvation!

As an adult, I heard a different version:

Is that reading doing you any good?

Have you heard either? And what was your reaction to each?

Fair enough. To reply to my own question,

I've heard both, and they seem to have different passive-aggressive meanings, despite good intentions.

In my experience, if someone asks, "Is that reading item doing you any good?" they may be saying that they wouldn't read it. If they say it with a less-than-kindly look or tone, the implication is, "Would you offer it to Jesus to read if He were sitting next to you? Or would you be embarrassed [and rightly so, thou work-under-construction]."

I do think children need healthy and kindly guidelines. They aren't born with discernment. This line seems to be a way of suggesting a boundary, whether or not the person needs that guidance.

Whereas the line, "Don't read your way out of your salvation" doesn't even seem to appear very often in search engines. Maybe it was our own corner of the world. I used to hear it applied to nonfiction, especially science and history, so I took it to mean, "Your book-learning is a problem." It wasn't the only time I was told that asking questions was a Bad Thing.

Thoughts?

I've never heard either of those things myself. The closest thing i did hear was to ask yourself if what you were reading (or watching, or listening to) was bringing you closer to God, leading you away, or doing nothing -- and to be most cautious of that which did nothing. Presumably because if it was leading you away, you would stop reading (or watching, or listening to) it.

Depending on my mood, and what way the phrase rubs me, i could be very complimentary or very critical of advice condensed into quotable phrases like that. It's certainly easier to rattle off some familiar phrase than do the work of asking questions, carefully considering the situation, and then offering relevant advice, but that's not necessarily their intended use. Sometimes they're meant as a general reminder, or as a way of looking at a situation differently.

In light of the "is it bringing you closer", i could see "is that reading item doing you any good?" being a reminder to be aware of how your reading is affecting you and not just read passively. 

I'm having trouble putting my finger on why "don't read your way out of salvation" sounds too general, but it does. It comes across as saying "don't read too much", rather than "avoid books that have a negative effect on your faith". 

From the news: Police called on statue of Homeless Jesus within 20 minutes of its installation.

Pope Francis loved the statue and took one home with him.

The statue has been in the news since 2014 or thereabouts. In this latest incarnation, the church that installed it got complaints from bystanders that if the church "really" loved Jesus, they wouldn't put up a statue of Him. They "should" provide real benches for the homeless to sleep on. Maybe a blanket too. (As if their neighborhood, which complained in 20 minutes about a work of art, would like real homeless in the same place any better.)

Thoughts?

Oh, I get it now — the nail wounds in the feet. I was just going to say, "If we can't see his face, how do we know that's meant to be Jesus and not a Ringwraith??" Seriously, though, it's a thought-provoking work, if one thinks about Matt. 25:31 onwards.

Posted by: @the-old-maid

(As if their neighborhood, which complained in 20 minutes about a work of art, would like real homeless in the same place any better.)

Good point...