The book of Revelation, while God's truth, is very much written in the style of apocalyptic literature of it's time. This was likely done to confuse those may have tried to stop John's book being written and released.
Micro-chips under the skin? I don't know, sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. Suffice to say that the end times will be very violent and disturbing.
I believe demons do disguise themselves as aliens, but that has less to do with the end times and more that, as we enter the age of Scientific Reason (excuse me while I laugh), they have to adapt their ways to deceive mankind, since many people wouldn't take stock in the supernatural. Needless to say, they're not terribly creative (in the past they probably posed as as gods and goddesses, now it's aliens and ghosts).
The Mark of the Beast will be a very deliberate choice. You won't be able to accidentally receive the mark or have it forced on you.
Currently watching:
Doctor Who - Season 11
A quick note: for those who believe most scientists are simple seekers of truth, who only want to discover the truth about human origins, I don't want to overthrow that completely because Jesus is clear that even evil people can do good things, thanks to God's common grace (Matt. 7:11). However, that's just the point. Evil people can do good things for other people. But they are still evil in the worst way -- rejecting God.
Romans 1 is also clear that God clearly reveals Himself in nature, enough that man is "without excuse." Man can't plead ignorance, that he never knew God was there or what kind of God He was. But Romans 1 is also clear that people reject God anyway. This is something that gets brazenly ignored by well-meaning Christians who say that "nature is the 67th book of the Bible" and things like that. Moreover, such folks ignore the overt politicization of science in many ways, and even more so, the flawed starting point of many scientists who reject the first Book of books in order to get to the "67th book" (which is not as clear as Scripture anyway). And then Christians who say they believe the first Book give any weight the words of those who admit they don't (but attempt to redefine humankind's Story anyway). What's up with that?
Anyway, I think I am done with the origins discussion (I thought I was done already). There is plenty of material out there to research about the philosophies and motives of science and scientists. Thus there is no need to rehash it all here. Evolution/naturalism is just as much a religion as creation/Christianity. So Christians have no more reason to take seriously that other religion's claims than they have for accepting bits of Buddhism.
Now for a word on the end-times question; we've gone from the Beginning to the End. Hurrah!
Ithilwen and others, if you haven't seen this already, Speculative Faith contributor, Lutheran pastor, and superhero contemporary-fantasy novel Failstate author John Otte recently made a video about all the end-times views: It's The End of the World As We Know It.
For myself, I'm a former default pre-everything-ist. Now I see how that view is founded on low views of God's sovereignty, His plan for the Church (and later also for Israel; Romans 11), Christ's final victory over evil on the Cross, and especially the Resurrection. So I'm looking for a new end-times view.
I wrote some more thoughts here, and concluded with what I believe is a debate-ender:
When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written
“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
“O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”1 Corinthians 15:54-55 ESV
1. If death itself dies at the Resurrection, which occurs when Christ returns the “first” time to “rapture” the (current) Church, how can anyone suffer or die during a literal seven-year tribulation or any sin persist at all in a “millennium” after the Resurrection?
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Evolution/naturalism is just as much a religion as creation/Christianity.
Social Darwinism, sure, I could call that a religion (it's certainly a "world-view"), but simply accepting the theory of evolution? I hardly see that as a religion. I "accept" (or at the very least, don't reject) evolution, but I'm not particularly excited or religious about it.
Now as for End-of-the-World specifics, I try not to be too, well, specific about it. I hold to the messages or themes of Revelation (union of Christ and His Church, redeeming of the world, punishment of sinners etc.) without making charts and diagrams about exactly how it's going to play out. Not that there's anything wrong with doing that, I just think it's a waste of time. Like Genesis, I accept the themes but am more than open to a metaphorical/mythical interpretation.
Hi all...been awhile since I've hung out here much, but it's summer, and I've got a little time on my hands, so I ducked in for a moment.
On the creationism vs evolutionism debate: here is a thought that's been rolling around in my head for quite some time on the subject. If you find that my logic is faulty, feel free to gently correct.
One of the famous first "science experiments" was directed toward what was then known as "spontaneous generation". As we were all taught in some elementary science class, Louis Pasteur disproved the theory in the 19th century.
But who started that theory in the first place? Turns out it was a very, very smart person who's work we still base much science and math off of today: Aristotle. Aristotle believed in spontaneous generation, and had "evidence" that proved it!
That theory was taken as fact for 2 millenia. 2 millenia!
All the evidence fit the theory, by the way. Few people doubted it. It was only when Louis Pasteur decided to question the theory and apply a different model and found evidence that killed that theory.
So--is it at all possible that though much of the evidence so far fits the model of evolution, there is another model we have yet to explore thoroughly which fits the evidence even better? Is there something missing, something we haven't even thought of yet?
If you say "no, we've proved this model, it's solid" I point you to Aristotle and caution you against too high an opinion of yourself or science.
I'm a little put out with the creationist side of the debate: in many cases, too many, these scientists are attempting to make something out of what's not there, and it reflects badly on the Lord of Creation and His Church.
But so are the evolutionist scientists. They demand that we teach this to children and the general public as a fail-proof theory.
And yet, there is old Aristotle. People acted on his theory and taught their children his theory for 2000 years.
And they were WRONG.
Just thinkin...
mm
Just got back from holiday abroad, been off line for the past two weeks.
On the thread of "What is the Gospel and what does it mean to become a Christian", all the answers I've read look like answers in a theology exam. I understand them - and believe them - as head knowledge, but somehow they don't translate into how-do-I-live-my-life-every-day kinds of things. I don't have any "feeling" of the Holy Spirit living inside me, even though I've invited him in a number of times. This is where I get so frustrated, as when I try to describe my lack of a relationship with God to other Christians, they assume it's because I don't know the first thing about it and have never read the Bible. According to the evangelical approach, I have done all the things you're meant to do to become a Christian, and been sincere about them; and not just once, but over and over again. Yet after thirty years, I still feel as empty and purposeless as ever. Charismatics have "baptised me in the Holy Spirit" on numerous occasions (sometimes with my permission, but not always) and that's had no effect either. That's why I find myself thinking that I'm not one of those whose name is written in the Book of Life, and no matter what I do or say, God doesn't want me.
Besides, Christians of different backgrounds disagree on how one becomes a Christian. Evangelicals are particularly keen on every Christian having to have a conversion moment, where one says sorry for one's sins, asks Jesus into one's life and then bang, one is a Christian for ever more. Other Christians don't appear to put nearly so much emphasis on that; for them it's more about belonging to the Church, since the Church is the Body of Christ. On the one hand, I can imagine people just going to church every week as a ritual without that ritual ever penetrating their skulls and affecting the way they live; on the other, I think it's quite possible to get so emotionally worked up (especially at some kind of outreach event) that one prays the Conversion Prayer because one is being encouraged to do so, not because it's what the person really wants. (In my case, it was a fairly emotional atmosphere when I first prayed the ask-Jesus-into-my-life prayer, but I've prayed it again since, more than once, on my own, without feeling worked up.)
Some Christians seem to think that only people of their own denomination are real Christians. Others disagree; but how theologically right do you have to be to count?
That's why I find myself thinking that I'm not one of those whose name is written in the Book of Life, and no matter what I do or say, God doesn't want me.
Of course God wants you. If you believe in Christ and His resurrection, that means that God has chosen you from before the foundation of the world. In that regard, it doesn't matter what you subjectively feel or whether you've "prayed the prayer" or had some other conversion experience---what matters is that you believe.
Some Christians seem to think that only people of their own denomination are real Christians. Others disagree; but how theologically right do you have to be to count?
The Nicene Creed provides a good start. "The doctrine of the Trinity is what basically distinguishes the Christian doctrine of God as Christian." ~Karl Barth
TBG
Whereof we speak, thereof we cannot be silent.
If God did not exist, we would be unable to invent Him.
King_Erlian;
I agree with what TBG has said above, but to add a few thoughts:
I detect a bit of a bias in what you have said. Perhaps you haven't noticed it. Here are two questions you should answer very seriously. Your answer will answer the question of whether you are saved.
Are you trusting in Christ for your salvation, or in the feeling of being saved?
Are you trusting in something you've done (i.e., praying, "receiving the Holy Spirit", accepting, asking Jesus into your heart, sinning less, yadda yadda) rather than Christ's work on the cross and resurrection for your salvation?
If you chose "feeling of being saved" or "something you've done" from those choices, then your salvation is, indeed, in question.
You seem to think you must feel something "special" or "different". Some people do, some don't. I could leave you with a list from scripture of the evidences of salvation, but that wouldn't satisfy you, because by now you well know that people can look like that on the outside and be "lost as a lost thing that's lost" (as per Hank the Cowdog).
It's simple. Do you believe Jesus is your only hope?
If so, rest assured that you have been saved, regardless of the "evidence". That's called faith, and you don't generate faith: faith is a gift.
mm
Erlian, I wouldn't put too much stock in "feelings". I consider myself a Christian, but I've never "felt the power of Jesus" like a Charismatic. He makes me smile, makes me laugh, makes me cry, and sometimes terrifies me and I love Him for it, but I haven't experienced anything dramatic.
Now regarding some denominations thinking they're the REAL Christians, I think that's nonsense. Aside from the really, really wonky denominations (e.g. Jesus is a space alien), the Church is all one family, united by Christ's redeeming love. I may disagree with a Charismatic or a Catholic, but I don't doubt their salvation if they sincerely believe in the gospel (i.e. mere Christianity) and do their best to live good lives.
Hi King_Erlian! I was reading your post and I have to say that my heart broke for you. The reason is I used to be in the same place you are (There was a time when I would ask Jesus into my heart every night).
Though I can't exactly articulate what changed in me, I found this blog post by Paul Ellis called "The Happy Gospel". http://escapetoreality.org/2012/01/25/the-happy-gospel-by-benjamin-dunn/ And I really feel like it could answer some of your questions. Another one you may want to read is "Are Sinners Forgiven Too." http://escapetoreality.org/2011/10/18/are-sinners-forgiven-too/ This should answer your question about how a person becomes a Christian.
Forgive me for being even more stubborn than Puzzle, but I still don't get what being a Christian means on a practical, day-to-day level. Some of the answers above seem to suggest that if I've gone through the conversion thing then it doesn't really matter what I do, I'm still saved. Somehow that doesn't feel quite right. Other people say that I have to live like a Christian - but what does that mean in practice? Fulfilling a quota of praying or reading the Bible? That doesn't feel quite right either - the Pharisees did a lot of that, and Jesus was probably less happy with them than with anyone else. Obeying God? But what if you don't hear God giving you specific instructions - how do you know if you're obeying him or not?
And which version of God is the right one anyway? The kind, loving Father who wants to give me a hug? The stern, angry Judge who wants to punish me? Various Christians I know always seem to emphasise one to the exclusion of the other.
God is the gracious judge. He is loving and merciful but he has to punish sin and won't stand to have it in his presence. God is both the stern judge (he needs to correct the sinner) and the loving father. He is more than multidimensional, he is life.
Currently watching:
Doctor Who - Season 11
But what if you don't hear God giving you specific instructions - how do you know if you're obeying him or not?
Through prayer (lots of it), reading of Scripture, the counsel of the brethren, and the conviction of the Spirit.
Some of the answers above seem to suggest that if I've gone through the conversion thing then it doesn't really matter what I do, I'm still saved. Somehow that doesn't feel quite right.
Well the question here, then, is do you believe? Do you trust in Christ and His work alone for your salvation? If so, then live it out: live as if the Gospel promises of God are really true. No, your works do not save you, but if your have true faith, then you will have works.
And which version of God is the right one anyway? The kind, loving Father who wants to give me a hug? The stern, angry Judge who wants to punish me?
That depends. If you are a Christian, then you are a child of God by adoption through union with Jesus Christ and therefore have the right to call Him Father and so even when He disciplines you, it is for your sanctification. If, however, you are unrepentant, then God does, indeed, condemn you.
TBG
Whereof we speak, thereof we cannot be silent.
If God did not exist, we would be unable to invent Him.
Apologies for interjecting in the current discussions, but I wanted to slip in and acknowledge and respond to the kind responses I recieved a month ago...
(by the way, those who have answered some questions in the past...you have gained the reputation to my mom as "Those great people on Narniaweb who help and answer your [theologically-related] questions." )
All the way back from Page 85, regarding my questions on a situation pertaining to demon deliverance:
Thanks for your detailed response to my post, Fencer! I really appreciate it.
I saved your post to refer to later - it had many great points, such as how there are many other battles we have to fight, from Satan, the world, and our flesh. What you said and described about someone battling the flesh but possibly blaming demons for attention makes heaps of sense.
A Christian cannot be possessed. They already have a spirit living in them: the Holy Spirit. But a Christian can be oppressed. This usually is a reaping of habitual sin. Oppressed people can sometimes hear voices that are not of God or can know things that they normally wouldn't know. But they have full control of their functions.
One thing I have seen is that demons can't get to a stage of oppression or possession unless the person gives an invitation. Those invitations can be very subtle. Common ones are doing things that involve the occult. Just playing with an Ouiji Board without really taking it seriously could be an invitation. Sometimes it can be the reaping of habitual sin. Sometimes I could be an imaginary friend. I don't have Scripture to truly back this up, but this is something I have seen.
Amen - I totally agree that a Christian can not be possessed. And I also believe and 100% agree that a Christian can be oppressed by the reaping of habitual sin or by inviting such influences in their life through Ouiji boards and the like.
However, in a different case scenario... can a Christian be oppressed (such as, bothered?) even when they have not pertained in habitual sin, but as a part of spiritual warfare? (not in a like "ooh, creepy!" way, but in a general way.)
Demons are not something to take lightly and if you are dealing with them, ALWAYS get your battle orders from the Commander-in-Chief, Jesus Christ. No one knows how to deal with them better and he knows what needs to be done. I hope this helps.
Again, completely Amen. Yes, it helped heaps. Thanks so much.
Thanks, Dr. Elwin, for your response to some issues I asked!
And based on a lot of twisted verses (about "binding and loosing," a twisting of Matt. 18) and pagan superstition about Things and people being literally "possessed" by demons that has no place in Scripture.
I agree and understand in the context I was speaking. May you elaborate a bit on "pagan superstition about Things and people being literally "possessed" by demons that has no place in Scripture."? I think I understand what you mean, but I'm not sure if I completely do.
I agree with the point you brought up - people will search for anything to blame their sin upon (such as someone who sinned perfectly willingly claiming, "The Devil made me do it.")
"Possession" is the wrong word. Theologian Wayne Grudem, for example, argues that this term implies a progressive or complete demonic takeover of the mind and will. (There it is again: people who hate "Calvinism" lurching toward fatalistic, I-could-be-Satan's-puppet nations.) This is not in Scripture. Only demonic influence, to varying degrees, is found in Scripture. Christians are not exempt from this (cf. Paul's "thorn in the flesh" which he calls a "messenger from Satan to torment me"), but they are certainly exempt from being in any way "controlled" by demons.
True Christians can't be "possessed" by demons. But they can certainly be possessed by un-Biblical notions about them -- or want to get attention, or distract from other problems.
Again, I completely agree. (and now I think can see what you mean by possession. What I meant by "possession" was, say, the way the Legion guy (an unbeliever) was possessed. I was not implying that I believe Christians can be possessed.) Totally agree - I don't believe in any way or form that Christians can be controlled by demons.
... And I believe that sums it up! Thanks for the responses.
RL Sibling: CSLewisNarnia
Forgive me for being even more stubborn than Puzzle, but I still don't get what being a Christian means on a practical, day-to-day level. Some of the answers above seem to suggest that if I've gone through the conversion thing then it doesn't really matter what I do, I'm still saved. Somehow that doesn't feel quite right. Other people say that I have to live like a Christian - but what does that mean in practice? Fulfilling a quota of praying or reading the Bible? That doesn't feel quite right either - the Pharisees did a lot of that, and Jesus was probably less happy with them than with anyone else.
It's more of a heart thing than an action thing. And once you have the heart part, the actions kind of follow naturally. It's not about you have to do this or you can't do that. It's more that, if you become a Christian, you have a desire to do what's pleasing to God. Everyone will mess up and sin, of course; and that doesn't mean you're not saved. But if a person is saved, there will be a desire to not mess up. If a person claims to be saved, but then says, "Oh, now I'm going to Heaven. That means I'm forgiven and can do whatever I want. Pfft, forget God's rules then! I'm going to go sin up a storm because I can!" <-- Then there's a pretty good chance that person's heart wasn't really in it when they decided to "become a Christian and follow God". If they really wanted to follow God, they wouldn't toss His rules aside like that. They would still mess up sometimes... but that's different.
So, it's not about little details and rules or quotas. It's more about the state your heart is in.
~Riella
Forgive me for being even more stubborn than Puzzle, but I still don't get what being a Christian means on a practical, day-to-day level. Some of the answers above seem to suggest that if I've gone through the conversion thing then it doesn't really matter what I do, I'm still saved. Somehow that doesn't feel quite right. Other people say that I have to live like a Christian - but what does that mean in practice? Fulfilling a quota of praying or reading the Bible? That doesn't feel quite right either - the Pharisees did a lot of that, and Jesus was probably less happy with them than with anyone else. Obeying God? But what if you don't hear God giving you specific instructions - how do you know if you're obeying him or not?
Let me encourage you by telling you that I ask these questions myself a lot. These are good, searching questions to ask. I appreciate that you're not just accepting everything at face value. I'm no expert, but I'll do my best to answer your questions.
Ultimately, like Ithilwen put so well, the Christian life is about where your heart is. God says in the book of Ezekiel that He will remove our heart of stone and give us a heart of flesh. Essentially, He will remove the sinful person who hates Him and give us a heart that yearns for and loves Jesus Christ.
The question then is, what does it mean to love Jesus? What does it mean to be a member of his church, a part of his bride and body?
There is a lot of stress within today's Christian culture on our relationship with Christ and how Christianity is all about relationship. I believe this is absolutely true. I believe that when Christ changes us, we will want to get to know Him more and we will get to know Him more--and the more we know Him and love Him, the more we begin to look like Him. He promises us this. But, remember, the church is Christ's body. You cannot get to know Jesus completely if you do not know the other members of His body. If you have yet to find a good church that worships, teaches, and preaches in God's truth, then find one soon! You cannot meet or experience God's love anywhere else the way He made us to meet Him in worship together on His Lord's Day.
Next, I would urge you to search through God's Word on your own. Read it. Study it. A lot. There is no specific quota of Bible-reading that the Christian must meet. But if you feel like you can't hear God's commands, it's because He has already spoken His commands to us in His Word. Our pastor is currently preaching through the book of Revelation and I have found this book of the Bible incredibly helpful in discerning what it means to be a Christian, what that looks like in every day life. If you find the book of Revelation extremely confusing (which I myself do), feel free to message me and I can send you some links to some very helpful sermons.
And finally...pray!! If you feel like you do not love or know Jesus as you ought, ask Him to give you a heart and a will that does! And I promise He will give it to you. If you feel like you are still in the dark and have no idea what He wants you to do, continue to seek Him in His Word, and ask Him to make His Word clear to you. If you have difficulty praying, I recommend the Book of Psalms in the Bible. I have found nothing, not even my own prayers, express my sentiments of doubt, pain, loneliness, praise, and joy the way the Psalms do.
That's all I have for you right now. I apologize if this was really confusing. I am obviously not an expert. I hope it was helpful all the same.
Ruby G.
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