That whole subject will make your head hurt like it's been hit with a rock. I wouldn't poke it with a stick.

So how do angels work in our lives? Is it possible that angels take on human forms and interact with us on a daily basis?

I can quite understand, Moonlight Dancer. Now how do angels come into it all?

God is Sovereign and he has given us free will. God directs our lives, but he's given us free choice. Neither overrides the other, both are true. Human wisdom would indicate that this is impossible but this holy paradox makes sense if you read the Bible as a whole.

That sounds like the point my post was making, so it sounds like maybe we agree on more that we think? ~Riella

Recently I read a story, but I am not quite sure where, or how. I think it was in the Australian version of May's Reader's Digest, the one with the Queen's Jubilee celebrations in it. But I can't swear to it. It could have been from somewhere else, like a sermon, or another magazine. And so I can't quote it exactly. There is too much going on at the moment and time is running short.

The story goes something like this: A man is dropped into a raging river where he prays desperately to God to allow him to survive. He is swept by a low bridge where a man bearing a stick reaches out to him. 'Take hold of this' says the man on the bridge.

'No, I can't reach' says the man swept into the torrent. 'And besides I expect someone will be able to winch me out'. The man in the river - let's call him Jonah - was swept onwards where a woman called out to him to grab the improvised rope she had made. 'Grab hold of this', she said. 'Oh no', Jonah said. 'You won't be strong enough to haul me out'.

Now I can't swear to the exact circumstances, or who said what. But Jonah's body was eventually found further down the raging river. Jonah went to the Pearly Gates where he protested, 'How is it I have died? I prayed to be saved'!

He was told: 'Yes, you did pray, but didn't you notice the people I sent to help you? Each of them offered to help you, but you refused it.'

Does that explain a little what an angel might be? And a little about what W4J says about free will and free choice? You can only be helped if you accept the genuine help that is on offer.

Angels are an issue that I try not to be too concrete about. I believe in angels, but I'm very hesitant to say they take human form "on a daily basis" or anything like that.

Wagga's story is a good illustration. I can see predestination and free will working there, but the problem is that passages like Isaiah 6:9-10 and Romans 9:14-21 make it look like God designed certain people exclusively for Hell, because He "hardened their hearts". And somehow, some way this doesn't negate His goodness. For the record, I don't like the sound of this at all, but that's what these passages seem to imply.

In terms of hardened hearts, Pharaoh is always the prime example. But if you read the full context, specifically in Exodus 4, when Moses is still at the Burning Bush, God told Moses that Pharaoh had already decided he would not do it. That we before God hardened Pharaoh's heart. There is another passage (I can't remember where) where in the End Times, there are going to be points where people will not be able to accept Jesus even if they wanted to. "How long shall I stay with you?" Jesus said. God is not going to give us an infinite number of chances to respond to him. Reject him enough times and God will turn you over to sin. Jesus said several times, "He who has ears, let him hear." He's talking about those who would listen. Many times people reject God, not because of logical or intellectual reasons, but because of moral reasons. They don't want anything to do with him because they like their sin.

Angels: In 22 years of missions experience, I've worked directly with people who have encountered angels. They didn't know they were angels until after the fact. Two encounters in particular stand out. In both occasions, the angel (who looked like a normal person in the crowd) came up to the person I worked with and gave a message. "You need to know you are doing a good work here." was one. "Thank you for taking care of my people." was the other. What was interesting is that the angel never really engaged in conversation. He just repeated the message until the person I worked with 'got it'. And I mean really 'got it'. Then the angel left and was never seen again.

I am not convinced that angels are in and among us on a daily basis, but we never know. Quite often we do attend to angels unaware and likely more often then not, we miss them. The homeless person on the street corner may be a homeless person, but he might be an angel there to test your compassion. We don't know. If said person is an angel, I'm very certain there will be a prompting of the Holy Spirit to do something with said person. That prompting may come even if said person is not an angel. That's not for us to know. What we do need to know is to listen to the voice of God and obey it when we hear it.

In terms of hardened hearts, Pharaoh is always the prime example. But if you read the full context, specifically in Exodus 4, when Moses is still at the Burning Bush, God told Moses that Pharaoh had already decided he would not do it.

If the example of Pharaoh isn't good enough, there are plenty of others. I believe I referenced quite a few more than that in my post.

Besides the scripture Reepicheep mentioned, there's also the fact that when Jesus told parables, he said that he purposely did this so that people would be hearing but not perceiving, "otherwise they might turn and be saved". Also, the scripture about man's depravity that says that we are unable to choose God. So if it was on our shoulders to choose God, then we'd all be doomed.

In fact, according to Romans 9, with the twins Jacob and Esau, before either of them were even born, God loved Jacob but hated Esau. And the Bible purposely points this out to us. So, there is a lot more to it than just what we choose to do or choose to be. God is the potter after all. We don't mold ourselves.

According to Romans 9, it does not depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy. It says that he is the potter and hardens whom he wants to harden.

Reepicheep, if it helps, Romans 9 also says something that I believe gives some insight as to why God does what he does.

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory —

So, apparently, it has to do with glorifying Himself for the sake of us who are predestined.

~Riella

I think it's the "otherwise they might turn and be saved" that trips me up. It seems like certain people's salvation must be avoided.

Also, the scripture about man's depravity that says that we are unable to choose God. So if it was on our shoulders to choose God, then we'd all be doomed.

That's definitely a point worth making.

All this reminds me of another C. S. Lewis character quote: when Aslan tells Jill "You would not have called to me unless I had been calling to you". Theologically, that scene by the river is one of the most fascinating in the series. I think I need to re-read it.

Sorry to jump in here.. I just wanted to say thanks Ithilwen for trying to answer my question.
But I must say I still don't agree, with what you believe, because there is so much stated in the Bible that says otherwise...(besides John 3:16)

And because my original question was a few pages back I'm going to reiterate my statement and say that: God desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Jesus died for ALL people.

For instance. 1 Timothy 2:3 - 6 "God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. 7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying —and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles."

And 2 Peter 3:9 - "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

And 2 Corinthians 5:14 - "For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again."

And I was also looking at Romans today and saw these verses: "You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation." (Romans 5:6 -11)

To me this says that even when we were in our most depraved state, Jesus still died for us. And note that verse 6 says that "Christ died for the ungodly" and not for "some of the ungodly"...

In terms of hardened hearts, Pharaoh is always the prime example.

Umm, can someone please direct to the place in the Bible that says when God hardens someone's heart its permanent...

And also for this current discussion about angels, if you actually look up the word angel it means messenger, not another type of species..

Very interesting discussions guys..

Been a while since I've been here, hasn't it? And I see the perennial topic of predestination and God's sovereignty has arisen.

As usual, there's a bit of confusion here (as W4J has pointed out) in the sense that the Bible teaches both 1) God is absolutely sovereign over salvation and has chosen some but not all to be His even though the work of Christ is such that all could be saved by it 2) nonetheless no one goes to hell who doesn't want to be there. God doesn't send anyone to hell---everyone who goes to hell gets there on their own steam and no one who goes to heaven gets there except by the unmerited favour and grace of God.

The classic John 3:16 objection shows this confusion beautifully by failing to realize that Divine predestination is perfectly compatible with human free choice, and that to choose God, one must be born again of water and the Spirit, as Jesus says earlier in the passage. Elsewhere, Jesus says that "no one can come to me, unless the Father draw (literally "drag" or "pull," as from a well) him."

Like Paul, James, and the author of Hebrews, I'm going to use as my example the figure of Abraham, who is chosen to be the father of nations not because of anything he had done, but because it was God's good pleasure. Because of this calling and the promises which God gave Him, Abraham believed and it was counted as righteousness because of the promise that would be fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

Sorry to jump in here.. I just wanted to say thanks Ithilwen for trying to answer my question.
But I must say I still don't agree, with what you believe, because there is so much stated in the Bible that says otherwise...(besides John 3:16)

I believe I made reference to those as well in my post, saying that there are scriptures that say God wants all to be saved, but that those scriptures are referring to the Perseverance of the Saints -- the principle that God will ensure that those who are already His will be saved and won't be snatched out of His hand, that he doesn't want any of them to perish. If those scriptures were referring to Him wanting every person on earth ever to be saved, that would contradict other verses. Therefore, if we believe the Bible is inerrant, one of us - either you or I - is interpreting the scriptures wrong. The question is, which one?

I'd like to hear TBG's opinion on some of the verses MagicApple referenced; if you have time, TBG.

And because my original question was a few pages back I'm going to reiterate my statement and say that: God desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Jesus died for ALL people.

Christ died so that the opportunity would be there for everyone, yes. But that doesn't mean it's in His will for everyone to accept that opportunity. People are created for different purposes.

I'd like to ask you that, since you believe it is God's desire for everyone to come to Him and come to the truth, what is your interpretation of scriptures such as the one I referenced in Mark? Where Christ purposely spoke in parables so that, "they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!"?

To me this says that even when we were in our most depraved state, Jesus still died for us. And note that verse 6 says that "Christ died for the ungodly" and not for "some of the ungodly"...

It wouldn't say "some of the ungodly" in that scripture, no matter which of our views is true, because predestination isn't the point of that particular scripture. The point it's making is that He died for ungodly people.

To give you an example, let's say I gave money to a charity. I would say, "I helped the poor." Does this mean I helped all of the poor? After all, I didn't say I only helped some of the poor. I said I helped "the poor". Likewise, just because it says "the ungodly", and doesn't include the word "some", that doesn't necessarily mean "all".

Umm, can someone please direct to the place in the Bible that says when God hardens someone's heart its permanent...

It doesn't have to be permanent, necessarily. But you also have to keep in mind that God sometimes hardens hearts during people's "last chances". Someone could be on death's door, or near the time of their death, and they have one last chance to accept Christ, and God might harden their heart. It was the case with Pharaoh.

~Riella

MagicApple,

As for the verses you cite, consider the context: Paul and Peter are writing to a largely Jewish audience---they are addressing this idea that somehow in order to become a Christian, you have to become Jewish and part of the Jewish nation. The desire of God that all be saved means that God takes no delight in the destruction of the wicked and (further) gives them every opportunity to repent--which they refuse.

For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

If we take Paul to mean here that Christ died for every individual who ever lived, then we must conclude that no one goes to Hell---for if you are under the blood of Christ, having been united to Him, having died with Him, and having been raised with Him, then you are saved, for you are no longer dead in your sins, but alive to righteousness, for you are alive in Christ Jesus and have fellowship with the eternal Trinity. If you want to take this to mean that Christ died for all, then you will have to become a universalist (in which case, it turns out, you do believe in predestination!). Yet if we want to maintain, as Scripture does, that hell exists and people send themselves there, then we must conclude that the "all" in these verses is not "everyone who has ever lived."

After having much objections to Predestination the day I heard it for the first time in a class, I saw where the Bible states it and read how it should be taught, understood, etc. so I can say that I do believe in Predestination. I've attempted to start several posts to try explain it, but that might take forever to put it in my words, so I'll ask something else...

Let me clarify my beliefs so you know where I'm coming from... xD I'm a Christian who believes in justification by faith which is a living faith that exhibits itself through obeying God. I believe salvation is a gift of God. I believe the Bible is the inspired and inerrant word of God and, as stated above, I do believe in Calvinistic theology. I believe Christ is the only way to save us from our sinful nature and to reconcile us back to God. I am a member of a non-denominational church, and am currently attending a Reformed church, whom I agree with on the essentials and feel very blessed by the preaching, structure, and theology there. So... just to clarify that so you know my beliefs on the Bible, on demons, etc as I write this.
Because of some unsavory, and definitely unBiblical events, there's a tangled mess some of our relatives are in due to Person One's convoluted obsession with deliverance (which is done in a really dramatic way) and Person One's false beliefs on demons, the Gospel, and that kind of stuff in general (she's kind of into formula Christianity/instant converts without teaching discipleship or whatnot), and Person 1 heretically does this in the name of Christ. Person One claims that she has completely delivered some people (whose demons she professes to have yelled at for 9 hours) but then within a short time, declares legions have possessed them. She believes that people of other faiths other than Christianity are in general possessed with thousands upon thousands of demons and she assigns nationalities to demons, both of which we disagree with. We initially thought it was exaggerated and flying off the handle, but after we heard she said that an Old Testament prophet visited her and read her autobiography... :S :S we were really, really, really creeped out and were reminded of the witch of Endor in 1 Kings. Person 2 (who professes to be a Christian) who is my cousin is seeking advice from Person 1. We think that Person 2 involved may be psychologically messed up by Person 1, rather than what is being explained as supernatural means, because Person 2 has not overall shown signs of demon possession but has shown trouble with having humility.
But my main question...what is your all's opinion on demon posession? What does it mean when a professing demon-possessed person (who also claims to be a Christian....?) says that they vomited? :/ In general, what is the relation to throwing up and demon possession?
Do you think that demons psycologically bother some people, as well as but more frequently than physically? What do you think of physical demon possession? Do you think practicing Christians can be possessed? Do you think that practicing Christians can be bothered by demons?
(for the record, I do believe that people can be possessed by demons but I do believe that Christ can give deliverance in a Biblical way. I do not believe Christians can be possessed by demons, but I believe they can be bothered by them, but God is still in control.)
Thanks in advance for the answers.

I was for a time part of a Facebook group called Demon Deliverance Ministries. The overall spirit of the group came pretty close to matching what you described in Person 1. They could quote Scriptures all day long but if you even questioned them, you had a demon on your shoulder and they proceeded to try to drive it out. It finally got to a point where I said 'enough is enough and I'm out'.

Now, I am not an 'expert' on demonic activity, but I do have experience in dealing with it. Not every demonic possession involves the 'Exorcism of Emily Rose' activities. Those who have been here on NWeb for at least five years knows about my encounter with the demonic and I'm not going to go into detail about it now. I do want to emphasize what CS Lewis said about demons: "There are two equally dangerous approaches to dealing with the demons. One is to deem them a myth and the other is have an overt interest in there." (I know I got the quote wrong.) To put it simply demons want to be in one of two places: behind the scenes or in the spotlight. Person 1 is on the latter extreme and that is dangerous.

Satan and his minions are but one of three enemies we have. The other two are the world and the flesh. Person 2 (dealing with humility) is battling the flesh, the person's own sin. Don't need a demon for that. Marc Driscoll describes all three as a fisherman. Satan is the fisherman, the world is the bait, and the flesh is the hook. If we don't bite, Satan has no power or effect on us.

Possession is an outright control of the body. This is when the demons actually controls speech, actions, etc. I've encountered this. It does not have be violent in nature. When I say violent, I usually refer to what most people think when they hear about possessions and exorcisms. It usually turns violent when the demon reacts to something, like a believer attempting to drive it out. But violent or no, the actions are always evil driven and motivated.

One thing I also caution about. If someone who is accused of being possessed is lonely and looking for attention, sometimes that person might act that way because that gives them the attention they want. So not every case of possession is really possession.

A Christian cannot be possessed. They already have a spirit living in them: the Holy Spirit. But a Christian can be oppressed. This usually is a reaping of habitual sin. Oppressed people can sometimes hear voices that are not of God or can know things that they normally wouldn't know. But they have full control of their functions.

One thing I have seen is that demons can't get to a stage of oppression or possession unless the person gives an invitation. Those invitations can be very subtle. Common ones are doing things that involve the occult. Just playing with an Ouiji Board without really taking it seriously could be an invitation. Sometimes it can be the reaping of habitual sin. Sometimes I could be an imaginary friend. I don't have Scripture to truly back this up, but this is something I have seen.

That pretty well sums up what I can think of right now. But the true key to dealing with the demonic is to be fully Christ-focused. I've seen others like Person 1 who are so focused on their 'mission' and on driving out demons that they can't see what's really going on in the picture. Others try to blow off demons as though they are nothing. Demons are not something to take lightly and if you are dealing with them, ALWAYS get your battle orders from the Commander-in-Chief, Jesus Christ. No one knows how to deal with them better and he knows what needs to be done. I hope this helps.

I believe I made reference to those as well in my post, saying that there are scriptures that say God wants all to be saved, but that those scriptures are referring to the Perseverance of the Saints --

In the beginning of 1 Timothy it actually states that he is talking to the disciples and Christian Jews, telling them to offer up prayer for all people. "I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness."

In 2 Peter 3, it is stated that "instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." Repenting is not some long, drawn out-on your knees-implorement. To repent means to change your mind, and this is what everyone does to become a Christian, because we use to have minds towards sin, then when we become Christians we have minds toward Jesus. So, why would he be telling people that are already Christians, that he desires them to repent when they already have?

Christ died so that the opportunity would be there for everyone, yes. But that doesn't mean it's in His will for everyone to accept that opportunity.

When you want something would say it’s your will for it to happen..?

Okay, I just want to stop here and state that I believe that all of us who are discussing this topic know that God loves us and that he is love. (1 John 4:15 "...God is love.") And that the only reason he created humans is because he wanted to have a relationship with other people. When God created Adam and Eve he already knew the risk he was taking (This was after Lucifer [who was described as the standard for perfection] and some angels had rebelled, even though they had been living in a place or state with no evil or knowledge of evil. And they had only seen God in a loving form.), yet he was willing to take that risk because he wanted a people who loved him.

To give you an example, let's say I gave money to a charity. I would say, "I helped the poor." Does this mean I helped all of the poor? After all, I didn't say I only helped some of the poor. I said I helped "the poor".

I would say its more like a bunch of people lost their jobs to the only person who can give them any and now there is no way they can get another one because their reputations are so bad and they don’t want to change. I offer to wipe away all of their bad history and give them the ability to become better people. However, they have to choose whether or not they are going to receive what I am offering them. Some reasons why they may not is because some may be to prideful and want to get their job back by themselves and others simply don’t want to change.

what is your interpretation of scriptures such as the one I referenced in Mark?

Your talking about Mark 4:10 – 12 right? Well I found the verse that basically talks
about the same thing in Matthew 13:10 -16 and from reading that it seems that even if Jesus had spoken to them not using parables they still would not have understood what he was saying.
…or it might have to do with the verse in John 20 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” So, really I’m not sure yet what this verse it exactly talking about, so I’ll have to think about this more..

If we take Paul to mean here that Christ died for every individual who ever lived, then we must conclude that no one goes to Hell—

Just to answer your question The Black Glove. I am not a Universalist, because even though Jesus died for all people, this only makes people able to accept Christ it does not save them from Hell automatically. To become a Christian you have to “declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.”

Hey all. Ithilwen asked me to stop by and I thought I'd (briefly) reprise the good ol' "predestination vs. free will" debate.

However, I see that my old friend and colleague The Black Glove has also been summoned from the past. What! did someone manage to find Susan's magical horn and blow it?

First, I agree with my friend Warrior when he says:

God is Sovereign and he has given us free will. God directs our lives, but he's given us free choice. Neither overrides the other, both are true. Human wisdom would indicate that this is impossible but this holy paradox makes sense if you read the Bible as a whole.

It's a paradox, but yes, Scripture does include both God's sovereignty and man's meaningful choice.

Notice I do not say "free," not because man is an automaton but because "free" has a wrong connotation in our culture. When people say "free," they often mean "man can choose anything." This is partly true. It is better to say "man can choose whatever he wants." And there is no getting around the truth that, according to the Bible, man does not naturally want God. He is "dead in [his] trespasses and sins" (Eph. 2). Though "dead," he has the will to do whatever he likes -- but what he likes is to stay dead! God must do a miracle: spiritual resurrection.

It's taken me a while to become even more perplexed as to why this is hard for folks to comprehend: man is free to do what he likes, but is constrained to his own nature. How is this so difficult? It seems even stranger when we realize that God is also free to do as He wants, but this does not mean that God will contradict His own nature.

As C.S. Lewis memorably said (I think about the whole "can God make a rock too big for Him to lift" silliness), nonsense does not become sense when you prefix it with "God can." (I do not, by the way, claim that Lewis believed in Reformed doctrine. He, like many American Christians, had fallen for a caricature of what "total depravity" meant, thinking it meant one has to deny any goodness thanks to God's "common grace" in man.)

Ultimately, these issues are not resolved by saying "I believe" such-and-such or trying to work out beliefs to make them fit all together and run smoothly like a machine. (This mode of theological reasoning can easily lead to the error of hyper-Calvinism, after all!) Instead, we must read through Scripture the way it was meant to be read. Not bits and pieces, or verses stuck together, but in context and from start to finish.

You don't read my reply the other way, the way Christians sometimes try to prove something from the Bible, right? By taking one sentence near the end, and sticking it with a sentence near the middle? Not at all. And you will likely hope I read your post from start to finish, too!

Finally, the reason to discuss any of this stuff is not to be Right or to get every bit of doctrine squared away. Instead it's to chase after the glorious God of the most amazing and Epic Story ever told. It's about giving Him the maximum amount of glory, and paying attention to our God Who is loving enough not to leave us in the dark about what we need to know of His plans. It's about seeing Him for the loving and absolutely sovereign God that He is, and trusting Him to be freer than we are.

Now for a couple of other topics, while I'm here.

I'm so glad you're still around, Moonlight. A few days ago, my wife and I celebrated our third wedding anniversary, the first NarniaWeb marriage, after we had "met" in the discussion thread you started -- which was about, oddly enough, predestination and free will.

Anyway, Moonlightdancer asked about angels. I'd like to know why you're asking, and what it means to you, and how you believe we would know a thing about angels anyway, if they even exist.

Also, Aslanisthebest asked about demons. I have thoughts.

Because of some unsavory, and definitely unBiblical events, there's a tangled mess some of our relatives are in due to Person One's convoluted obsession with deliverance (which is done in a really dramatic way)

And based on a lot of twisted verses (about "binding and loosing," a twisting of Matt. 18) and pagan superstition about Things and people being literally "possessed" by demons that has no place in Scripture.

Yes, by now I can fairly well fill in the rest! Call it a Gift of Prophecy.

and Person One's false beliefs on demons, the Gospel, and that kind of stuff in general (she's kind of into formula Christianity/instant converts without teaching discipleship or whatnot), and Person 1 heretically does this in the name of Christ.

(Pokes under the hood) Well, there's your problem right there -- a false view of the Gospel, which usually rots away the whole engine. ...

Person One claims that she has completely delivered some people (whose demons she professes to have yelled at for 9 hours) but then within a short time, declares legions have possessed them.

This kind of Holy Ghost is a fairly wussy entity, then.

After we heard she said that an Old Testament prophet visited her and read her autobiography... :S :S we were really, really, really creeped out and were reminded of the witch of Endor in 1 Kings.

My thought: she could be making it up entirely. And that's the "best-case scenario." It sounds like you all are discerning this nonsense well.

Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind, and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.

If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations—“Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch” (referring to things that all perish as they are used)—according to human precepts and teachings? These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.

(Colossians 2:18-23 ESV)

Person 2 (who professes to be a Christian) who is my cousin is seeking advice from Person 1. We think that Person 2 involved may be psychologically messed up by Person 1, rather than what is being explained as supernatural means, because Person 2 has not overall shown signs of demon possession but has shown trouble with having humility.

Get him/her to a Gospel-preaching church, yesterday.

These two topics are related. Here is how. When people, even professing Christians, allow for a belief of "free will" to mean that man should mostly worry about the sinful influences outside his heart, rather than inside (as Jesus warned in Mark 7), they will start blaming demons. Or the world. Or Harry Potter novels. Anything else but their own hearts. Then, strangely enough, they end up falling into a kind of spiritual-warfare fatalism that is worse than any supposed "hyper-Calvinist"! Instead of realizing that they have freely chosen to sin, or even to open themselves up to Satanic temptation, they decide that Satan, not God, is treating them like puppets! Nowhere does Scripture support this.

But my main question...what is your all's opinion on demon possession?

"Possession" is the wrong word. Theologian Wayne Grudem, for example, argues that this term implies a progressive or complete demonic takeover of the mind and will. (There it is again: people who hate "Calvinism" lurching toward fatalistic, I-could-be-Satan's-puppet nations.) This is not in Scripture. Only demonic influence, to varying degrees, is found in Scripture. Christians are not exempt from this (cf. Paul's "thorn in the flesh" which he calls a "messenger from Satan to torment me"), but they are certainly exempt from being in any way "controlled" by demons.

For more, try this at Eternal Perspective Ministries, or Google "demon possession, Wayne Grudem."

What does it mean when a professing demon-possessed person (who also claims to be a Christian....?) says that they vomited? :/

True Christians can't be "possessed" by demons. But they can certainly be possessed by un-Biblical notions about them -- or want to get attention, or distract from other problems.

Of course, I don't know for sure; I am not there, and I am not a pastor or elder/counselor. I would graciously ask that person if they truly know and believe the Gospel. But from the few circumstances I've seen, I believe that Satan's best work is done when he's convincing people he is more powerful than the Gospel and Christ's indwelling Spirit. What a sick joke.

I do believe that Christ can give deliverance in a Biblical way. I do not believe Christians can be possessed by demons, but I believe they can be bothered by them, but God is still in control.

Indeed. Demons are dangerous, but Christ is even more dangerous to them. It reminds me of The Doctor's parting words in the Doctor Who series 2 episode "The Girl in the Fireplace." A young girl asks the Doctor, "What do monsters have nightmares about?" and as he leaves he shouts back, "ME!"

In 2 Peter 3, it is stated that "instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." Repenting is not some long, drawn out-on your knees-implorement. To repent means to change your mind, and this is what everyone does to become a Christian, because we use to have minds towards sin, then when we become Christians we have minds toward Jesus. So, why would he be telling people that are already Christians, that he desires them to repent when they already have?

There are different forms of repentance. There's the first repentance we do when first becoming a Christian. But there are other times of repentance after that. Though we are Christians, we still fall into sin. Not just one-time sins that we commit, ask forgiveness quick, and never do again. We have sins that we get trapped in, and which we don't want to give up, even after we are saved. Christians have to take those sins and decide to repent of them for Christ. This will happen many times throughout a Christian's lifetime.

When you want something would say it’s your will for it to happen..?

Not really. Even if that verse does mean it the way you're taking it, there is more than one kind of "will". Even those of us who believe in predestination also believe in free will along side it, and that is taken into account when talking about "God's Will". It is a mother's "will" that her child always obeys her; but since that child has "free will" (i.e. is a slave to sin), that doesn't happen. Then, it is also her "will" that the child faces consequences. I think most of us who believe in predestination believe that the Fall of Adam and Eve is in the "free will" arena, rather than something that was predestined (My fellow Calvinists can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). In that case, it probably was God's "will" that they don't disobey Him and all be saved. But He still allowed them to do it. And because they did it, it's in His will for some of the human race to face consequences in Hell. Like I stated before, I interpret that particular verse you referenced differently than you do. But even with your interpretation, it still wouldn't disprove predestination.

Okay, I just want to stop here and state that I believe that all of us who are discussing this topic know that God loves us and that he is love. (1 John 4:15 "...God is love.") And that the only reason he created humans is because he wanted to have a relationship with other people.

I'm afraid not everyone discussing this topic believes that. God is a God of love, but he is also a God of justice, a jealous God, the Potter, and a good many other things too. As for why He created us, I definitely disagree that it was so He could "have a relationship with other people". That would imply that He "needed" us in some way (as if God needs anything). And the only "Lonely God" I know of is The Doctor. Rather, I think He made us for His own glory.

To give you an example, let's say I gave money to a charity. I would say, "I helped the poor." Does this mean I helped all of the poor? After all, I didn't say I only helped some of the poor. I said I helped "the poor".

I would say its more like a bunch of people lost their jobs to the only person who can give them any and now there is no way they can get another one because their reputations are so bad and they don’t want to change.

I was using that example to demonstrate the fact that the use of the phrase "The ___" does not always imply the idea "All of the ____". I wasn't using it as an illustration of God's relationship to us.

Your talking about Mark 4:10 – 12 right? Well I found the verse that basically talks
about the same thing in Matthew 13:10 -16 and from reading that it seems that even if Jesus had spoken to them not using parables they still would not have understood what he was saying.

That isn't what Christ said. He said that he purposely spoke in parables so that they would hear but not perceive. Then He goes on to say that "otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!"

So, really I’m not sure yet what this verse it exactly talking about, so I’ll have to think about this more..

No problem.

In fact, I think I also will think/ask more about one of the verses you quoted before commenting on it in full, though I already have some ideas on it. I would also love to hear TBG's comments on the verse, since he knows a lot more about theology than I do. I believe the verse has come up in conversations of Predestination vs. Free Will before, but I can't remember what was said about it. TBG, what's your take on the "wants all people to be saved" bit in 1 Timothy 2?

Here's the scripture again, for reference:

I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying —and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.

Is it talking about "people" in the individual sense -- as in, He wants "every person" to be saved? Or is it talking about "people" in the sense of "peoples", like in races or classes -- meaning He wants all "peoples", both Jews and Gentiles, rich and poor, etc. -- to be saved, rather than "just Jewish" people, or "just" any kind of people? That's the impression I got... And if I'm right, then the verse isn't talking about Free Will/Predestination at all, but rather the fact that there will be people from every group/background in Christ's kingdom some day.

Theology is a tricky thing. So much of one's beliefs hinge on how one interprets a scripture. The Bible is different from any other book; but like any other book, what it says can, at times, be taken more than one way. Only one way is correct. Question is, which one? If only we could be all-knowing. But I suppose one day we will be, after this earthly life is done.

~Riella