Well often when I debate people who are not Christians about what they believe. They often come back to the kosher laws asking if Christians who do not eat kosher will go to heaven. I'll tell them "yeah, they will go to heaven". But then they say that if Christian's don't need to keep the kosher laws they don't need to keep the other laws. What do you tell tell them when they say that?

Some Christians (myself among them) distinguish between Moral and Ceremonial Law.

The Moral Law is what is codified in the Ten Commandments--this is the expression of the character of God, and is therefore as unchangeable as God himself.

Ceremonial Law is that part of the Torah which is not a part of the character of God, but served only to point to the Messiah. The Ceremonial Laws were all shadows of New Testament realities; they were meant, as Paul says in the letter to the Galatians, to be a schoolmaster--to prepare Israel for the Messiah. Now that the Messiah is come the shadows are done away with. They are no longer necessary.

One important point, though, is that no amount of law-keeping will get anybody into heaven. We can't do it.

The Bible passages that say things like "Keep the commandments and live" are universally damning. It's not their purpose to make us smug, and say, "Yes, all these things I've done since my youth," nor is it their purpose to make us fearful, thinking, "I've got to do more! I've to love God more and keep more commandments so I can have eternal life."
No, the purpose of the Law is to lead us to Christ: to make us say, "I have no hope in myself. There is nothing I can do. I rely wholly upon Christ."

As far Messianic Judaism, I don't find any fault with enjoying the Jewish traditions on a strictly cultural basis. However,if you consider them to be somehow more spiritually profitable than the traditions of the Spanish, German, Indonesian, Norwegian (or modern American ) cultures, you're making a serious mistake.

I totally agree that we as Gentile believers are grafted into the True Israel--but what we have to realize is that not all citizens of the physical Israelite nation were part of the True Israel; only those that had faith according to the Covenant. Neither did all the Jewish traditions have a place in the history of redmption--only those that prepared for the Messiah. And even these are done away with, as with shadows and dreams, for the Messiah has come, and the True Israel is revealed in every tribe, tongue and nation; salvation and grace are come to all who trust in the Son of God.

I have to say this is an issue I've been struggling with for quite sometime and here's where I've arrived for the time being. Yeshua came not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. Therefore, I believe that the ceremonial side of it sacrificies etc. are void now because he paid the ultimate sacrifice. That being said, we are not released from our covenent with him, but he has given us a new covenent. The old covenent was based on law, the new one on love. The old one punished actions, now it's about the heart. In a sense, it's a even stricter convenent then before. Now we are not just being held accountable for our actions, but for our thoughts as well. He has given us the Ruach(Holy Spirit) in our hearts to guide us and reveal things to us. The laws of the Old Covenent should be the fruit of our love (do not steal, honor they father and mother etc). In all things we are to love on another as we love ourselves. The definition of love being "to lay down your life for another". Therefore, preferring others above ourselves and being sure to not cause another believer to stumble should be our main focus in this area. It goes back to what Paul says about if another brother doesn't believe in drinking wine, then don't drink wine in his presence, for you might cause him to stumble. I personally keep the feasts and celebrate them, believing they are symbolic of God's plan for the Restoration of Israel and all the world with her. I do try to eat Kosher, but I'm not super religious about it(it has been proven to be one of the healthiest diets around! Maybe the Creator of the Universe knows what he's doing!). It's one of those things I struggle with having some friends who do take it religiously and some who don't.

Sorry to interrupt your conversation, but this seemed to be the appropriate thread to ask a question:
Yesterday I was in the garden with my cat, just sitting down.
A (tired looking) moth flew down next to her and couldn't seem to move... I distracted my cat, and somehow helped the moth fly again, but it being disorientated flew straight into a spider web!
A big black spider darted down and grabbed the moth and quickly dragged it further into its home, where i could no longer rescue the moth...
I destroyed most of the web and the spider dropped out of it, onto the ground and hid (badly) in under a leaf...
I found that I couldn’t kill it, even after it had taken the moth.
I know it seems weird to worry about this, but it just seems strange that I couldn’t kill it!
Why do you think I couldn’t?

Jill, I've had similar experiences. I was one of those kids that got mad at the other kids for killing insects. Even now, as a 17-year old, I just can't bring myself to do it. Times like this, I look at the sky and know that God is real.

God intended for us to take care of the world and it's creatures (spiders, included) as stewards and this still echoes inside us.

Reepicheep775
I know what you mean. Even as a kid (I am at least twice your age, and we will leave it at that) working on farms, I found it difficult to harm God's creatures. I drive my wife nuts sometimes. She is deathly afraid of spiders, and when she finds one in the house guess who has to squish it? But at times I release them outside. Then I must convince her they cannot get back in.
We must take care not to let ourselve believe as the world does. There are those who would say that we show how good we are by acting like that. Even to say we are "spiritually" better.
To care for His creation is not from Our goodness. It only shows a willingness to hear His voice, and do His will.

Fair enough if you don't kill spiders, although it sometimes has to be done because they're too dangerous to release (especially the ones in Australia). That said, I'm going to continue swatting flies and mosquitoes and inch ants when they bite me.

Haha, yeah I squash mosquitos, I have to admit.

Mosquitos? You want to squash mosquitos? Come to the land of 10,000 breeding ponds (aka Minnesota). We'll let you squash all you want

No thanks! Australia doesn't have that many but it has plenty of them all the same. They love me and I hate them. I don't want to be a poison pin-cushion for those horrible insects!

Well, I'm coming in a little late in the discussion, and although I've skimmed through most of this, it does get a bit lengthy, so I'm not entirely certain what discussions are currently in circulation and which have been abandoned...although, it would appear that the two currently being discussed are (1) What different people believe about the Jewish traditions of eating Kosher, and (2) The morality or immorality of killing insects?

Well, firstly, I suppose I should state that I am a full fledged Assemblies of God Pentecostal Christian, baptised with the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in other tongues. I believe in the Triune God (or in other words, the Trinity), That God is the one and only God, and that Jesus came to earth as a human being in order to die on the cross as a perfect sacrifice in the place of all humanity in order that we might be able to achieve holiness through Him and enter heaven as the servants of the King (this being known as the crucifixion). I believe in heaven, and I believe in hell. I believe that Jesus is the one and only way to get to heaven and that by rejecting Him as savior, some people have chosen to enter hell instead.

Right, so, on to the discussions!
(1) Some people often mistake Jews and Christians for having the same belief system. While we do believe in the same entity as God, and some parts of scripture, the rest is pretty much completely different. I personally, do not believe that the clean and unclean laws apply to us today, although I absolutely respect the beliefs of those who do. I believe that certain ceremonial laws were put into practice by Christ for very good reason at the time in which they were commanded, most of them having to do with safety (such as the clean and unclean laws). Vultures and lobsters, for instance, were considered unclean. This was for good reason, as both of these creatures thrive on the rotting flesh of other dead animals. Obviously, this would be devastating to consume, without proper methods of preparation and the lack of vaccinations against disease. Other ceremonial laws, such as the practice of communion were specifically commanded to be continued until the day of His return, and are not for safety purposes, but for the purpose of reminding us of His sacrifice, among other things.

(2) I personally believe that all creatures were created for a purpose, and that they fulfill their purposes on earth. Many times, humans disturb balances that God has put into place without even knowing it by the willfull and useless distruction of animal life (for example, the overhunting of the grey wolf in the southern portion of North America resulted in an overabundance of prey animals, such as deer, rabbits, squirrels, and rats. Or take the bat for example, without them, 98% of all fruit production in the entire world would cease to exist.). In fact, it has been supposed that before the fall of Adam and Eve in the Garden, all animals, along with human beings were vegetarians (this stemming from the evidence that pre-fall, there was no death on the earth, and therefore, one animal could not or would not need to kill another). However, after the fall of man, things changed dramatically, and where once, animals served only their individual purposes on the earth (such as pollination of vegetation and companionship), they also began to serve the purpose of food for people. There is a fine line though, between killing for food, and killing for fun. In my opinion, trophy hunting, poaching, ritual killings, or any other willfull destruction of life outside of necessity falls into the realm of cruelty, which is obviously, unscriptural.

Welcome sister-in-the-Lord.

Might I inquire, are you then a believer in literal creation as stated in the Bible?

By the way. Interesting name. rather like the originality of it.

Hmm... some good thoughts but baptism by the Holy Spirit doesn't only reflect itself through speaking in tongues. That is but one of the spiritual gifts God can give us. I for one can't speak tongues but I know that doesn't mean I'm not a follower of Christ.

^^ Agreed. I can't speak in tongues either, haha.

So, do we have to be baptised to be saved? Like, if I accepted Christ, but was never baptised before I died, would I go to Hell? I've heard some people believe this, but I was wondering if it was true or not.

Might I inquire, are you then a believer in literal creation as stated in the Bible?

This caught my interest. What is the non-literal belief?

~Riella

'Non-literal' refers to either God using evolution to create the world, taking millions of years or more, rather than 6 24-hour days. There are also people who believe the creation story to be a myth or metaphor for creation and sin entering the world. Never mind that the beginning chapters of Genesis are written in the manner Hebrew people dealt with historical accounts.

Looks like I started something here.

While I myself recieved the gift of tounges when babtised in the Spirit, I have never believed it to be a qualifier for salvation. I have heard more than once of those who say that if you do not you cannot be saved. This has no scriptural bases.
As for babtism itself, I can only go to the thief next to our Lord on the cross. He was not babtised, and yet he had faith, which is the only requirment that I know of.
When it come to creation. I must say that I will not question the faith of those who believe in what has been called "theological evolution". That is, as W4J said, that God used evolution to create life, and the first few chapters are myth. I will however warn them that this will eventually effect their witness.

Baptism is commanded in Scripture, but not as a requirement for salvation. Romans 9 says all that needs to be done to be saved is to believe in your heard and declare with your mouth that Jesus Christ is LORD. Baptism is simply a public declaration of your faith. Christianity is not meant to be a 'keep to yourself' religion. It is meant to be shared and public statements is part of that.

I have gotten into many interesting debates about Creation. I am a firm believer in the "Young Earth" model, which describes the Creation in 6 literal 24-hour periods taking place approx 6,000 years ago. I do not consider those who hold to the "Old Earth" theory as un-saved, but I do have to consider them misled. Scientifically, only the Young Earth model holds without any flaws or questions that cannot be answered. And doctinally, every "Old Earth" theory has problems. (and yes, I have been accussed of being 'dogmatic' in my approach). The first big issue with "Old Earth" is that it puts death before sin and that has a wide range of dangerous effects on theology.

I can easily get into this debate but I am tired and need to get to bed. I have to get up early so I can catch my chain of buses to get to church on time.