Very good thoughts there, ericnovak. Yes, one thing we must be very cautious about (preaching to myself here more than others) is to keep the discussion Christ centered and not doctrine centered. The Pharisees and Sadducees were the masters of doctrinal debate, but had no ounce of light in them. I am a believer of "Theory is fine, but nothing more if you can't use it." Same is true with Biblical doctrine. It's meant to be practical (and much more). The question is, Now that we have this doctrine, what are we going to do about it? It is interesting to note that some of the great evangelists of our time are Calvinists, in a time where my experience with Calvinists in the church tends to not focus on evangelism because they believe those who will be saved are already determined. I know the response here to that remark will be 'we don't know who those people are, so we need to preach'. That's a good response. How will they respond if they do not hear, and how will they hear if we do not preach?

It's good stuff, but only good for head knowledge if we don't use it in our walk.

I would totally agree, Christian. To some extent I would almost say that head-knowledge without heart-knowledge is more damaging than it is helpful. Without heart-knowledge, we understand the concept but have no way to apply it. The concept may be totally correct, it just falls short. Thankfully, the holy spirit is constantly working in us, conforming us to the likeness of Christ Jesus, our Lord.

I would argue that Calvinism has been taken a step too far, when there is no evangelism. God is sovereign, God chooses those who will be saved, yet God also chooses the means through which they will be saved and I have been commissioned by Christ to make disciples of all nations. We cannot simply discard portions of scripture to fit our theology. Scripture, rather, forms that theology.

I would argue that Calvinism has been taken a step too far, when there is no evangelism. God is sovereign, God chooses those who will be saved, yet God also chooses the means through which they will be saved and I have been commissioned by Christ to make disciples of all nations.

I believe it's Hyper-Calvinism that discards evangelism. Any ordinary Calvinist, as far as I've ever seen, would agree with the above.

~Riella

First, I would mention that Calvinism is a reactionary theology. The five points of Arminianism were formed and as rebuttal, Calvinism's TULIP came about. While this isn't a bad thing, it simply means that Calvinism shouldn't be held as the standard, but rather the truths examined more closely, in light of scripture. Rarely have I met a Calvinist who was not first a Christian

Yes, the Canons of Dordt were a response to the points made by Arminius, but to call that reactionary is like saying that the Nicene Creed is reactionary because it was formulated in response to the Arian heresy.

I do agree that Calvinists can sometimes be rather argumenative and hard-headed. However, that's because even Calvinists are still sinners who are being sanctified. We're all on the road. I don't like a lot of the attitude that many Calvinists bring to the table, but I can't be too harsh on my brothers because but for the grace of God, there go I.

TBG

Two Questions.

1. This is a question that has been bantered around by people I know, and each person seems to have a different opinion on it. It concerns this scripture from Romans 10:

9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

The question is, what does it mean when it says to declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and that "it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved"? Some people have told me that it means you have to go up to someone and tell them you've been saved in order for your salvation to "take effect". Other people say you have to literally say, out loud, the words "Jesus is Lord" in order to be saved. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.

2. My last question is, are we supposed to pray out loud? Because I never do. I just pray inside my head. Are there some prayers that are supposed to be said out loud, while with others it doesn't matter? I've heard people say that when you pray to God to save you when first becoming a Christian, you're definitely supposed to say that one out loud... Thoughts?

~Riella

I don't have a lot of time right now, but I will say that there is a power in the spoken language (aloud) that many of us don't understand. God created the universe with his spoken voice. The tongue can literally speak blessings or curses (knowing that a curse without a cause cannot alight). To speak out loud has an effect that transcends what we understand. There are so many Proverbs and other wise teachings about the tongue that it's hard to count them.

As for prayer, it is important that God knows our prayers before we speak them. There are prayers we can say silently, but there is something about a spoken out loud prayer that is more powerful than just a silent one. I am not advocating that speaking a prayer out loud will mean it will get answered the way we want more. I am speaking about those prayers that are truly God-given (and not selfishly driven). When we speak them out loud, something happens that would not necessarily happen if we say them only in our mind.

There are times in spiritual warfare where we need to pray out loud. This is not so God can hear us but so Satan can hear us. He can't see our thoughts or know our thoughts. If we are battling against the devil, he needs to hear our prayers vocalized and he can't stand being around that.

I'm not a huge pray out-loud person myself but there is something special that goes on when you pray out loud that gets things done in a way that silent prayers don't.

What does it mean when it says to declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord?

I'm not sure if this is as much of a vocal declaration of being a Christian, than a refusal to deny Christ - Luke 12:9, "But the one who denies me before men will be denied before the angels of God." What God requires of the sinner to become saved, is a recognition of sin, repentance and trust in Jesus Christ. What of those who are mute and can't audibly speak?

Perhaps confession of Christ in public, is a form of growth, just as baptism for the Christian signifies that we were dead in our sin, resurrected and raised in Christ but is not indeed the act that saves us from an eternal, fully deserved punishment.

As far as the praying thing goes, I would echo and just tack on to what Christian said. While prayer is just as valid in silence and is often more of a lifestyle than a specific single time act, pray is also a gift that God uses to make an impact on His people. If you want a definition of what prayer should be, if you want to know how it should proceed from you, Lewis seems to have a decent grasp on that idea,

I pray because I can't help myself. I pray because I'm helpless. I pray because the need flows out of me all the time- waking and sleeping. It doesn't change God- it changes me.

It is important to remember that prayer not only changes you, but it changes those around you. It is healing in raw form, God talking to God through our sickly body. Don't have the audacity to keep it to yourself simply because you don't feel comfortable saying it aloud. Let God direct you, let your identity rest in Christ who redeems you, and pray aloud for the encouragement of the body.

Today I read Romans 4 with my nifty new Halley's Bible Handbook by my side and I found it very interesting. Basically Paul writes that God was pleased with Abraham's faith rather than his circumcision. Mosaic law (including the circumcision command) hadn't even been written when God blessed Abraham. From there it seems Paul says that circumcision is a moot point ultimately. It doesn't really do anything to change God's view of you. This got me thinking why circumcision was ever instituted in the first place. I've heard that it might have been for medical reasons so by breaking this command (or suggestion?) it wouldn't be an act of unrighteousness, but maybe just of stupidity. Any thoughts?

Back to the Calvinism thing for a second; it's important to remember that Calvin was much more a preacher than a theologian in his day, and would probably "roll over in his grave" at the thought of people abandoning evangelism in his name. MORE IMPORTANTLY, however, it is important to remember than Jesus is the true authority on the matter. Realistically, the Bible teaches both predestination and free will, and God said that the secret things are His. I think He is much too incomprehensible for us to fit in our little theological boxes within theological camps; also, I do not think He is unable to do different things with different people, or in different situations. Instead of arguing over whether an eternal soul is going to hell whether you show them God's love or not, it seems to me more biblical to do what the Bible actually says to do with the information it gives us; that is, Go out, tell the world of Christ, and make disciples.

Ithilwen, I think that the part about confessing Jesus with your mouth is better understood with a couple of other points on the table, 1 being that in Matthew 5 Jesus tells us that those who deny Him before men will be denied before the Father in heaven, and those who confess Him before men will be confessed before the Father who is in heaven. Imagine if you married someone but they were embarrassed of you and wouldn't tell people they were your spouse, and even denied it when someone asked. Would you be inclined to proudly show them off to your parents? Would you even want to be associated with them anymore? Also, remember the context of Paul. He believed that Jesus was coming back very soon, within the next few years. He had a great sense of urgency with telling others about our salvation, which is definitely biblical (like we've just examined from Jesus' own words).

As for your second question, so far as I can tell the issue of praying out loud or not has nothing to do with your lips but your heart. Jesus said that those who pray out loud for the praise of MAN have recieved their reward in full, but those who pray TO GOD will be rewarded by Him. I'm not saying it's wrong to pray around other people, just to be careful and remember the heart is decietful.

I've actually been wondering about that myself lately. Since prayer is an intimate thing, why do we do it out loud, around people so much? Most of us wouldn't be intimate with another person in the same situations. But I'm not really sure about the issue yet.

I've actually been wondering about that myself lately. Since prayer is an intimate thing, why do we do it out loud, around people so much? Most of us wouldn't be intimate with another person in the same situations. But I'm not really sure about the issue yet.

God wants us to pray both alone and with others and we see this through the example of almost every single leader in the Bible, including Jesus:

"Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven." -Matthew 18:19

"And when the time for the burning of incense came, all the assembled worshipers were praying outside." -Luke 1:10

"They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers." -Acts 1:14

"But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." -Matthew 6:6

"Very early in the morning, while it was still dark, Jesus got up, left the house and went off to a solitary place, where he prayed." -Mark 1:35

"Yet the news about him spread all the more, so that crowds of people came to hear him and to be healed of their sicknesses. But Jesus often withdrew to lonely places and prayed." -Luke 5:15-16

I would be very hesitant to limit prayer when it clearly a powerful tool that God uses for communication with His people and encouragement in the body of Christ.

A new question.

What does it take to be forgiven? When you sin, do you just ask to be forgiven and you are? Or is there more to it than that? Does there have to be a specific level of regret? Do you have to stop doing that particular sin before you can be forgiven for it? What about people who want to stop but are too weak? Or people who wish they wanted to stop, but like their sin too much to let it go? Are they forgiven too?

Also, must we confess a sin to be forgiven for it? In prayer, I've always said "Please forgive me for all my sins." Is that sufficient or are we supposed to actually list the sins we have done? (And if so, wouldn't that take a very long time? ) And also, are we required to confess our sins to other people, in order to be forgiven?

~Riella

Ithilwen, I love those questions. I will do my best to recall what scripture says about them, here goes.

First off, what would you say it means to be a Christian? Is it a collection of religious practices that we must excercise in order to be saved? Or, is it a relationship with Jesus Christ? I don't see in scripture anywhere that we have to muster up some level of regret in order to repent. If we are in an active relationship with Jesus, we do begin to feel our sin more, which probably does lead to greater regret. However, scripture tells us this:

"And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying, "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART,
AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM,"
He then says, "AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE." Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.

I believe that, when Jesus died on the cross, He carried the punishment for all sins that had been and ever would be committed. This includes our sins that we commit over and over again. Make no mistake, Christ's bride is as adulterous as it gets! I am speaking of those of us who profess faith in Him. But, as John so eloquently put it (1 John 1:9), "He is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Furthermore, Paul writes this to the church of Rome:

For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Hopefully that answers your first batch of questions. I've wasted a lot of time not approaching Christ because I feel like such a failure for my sin. If you happen to be strugging with that yourself, I recommend listening to Tenth Avenue North. They are a wonderful band, I had the pleasure of meeting them a short while ago, people dedicated to dispelling the myth that our sin can keep us from the love of Jesus. A few good songs to try: "You Are More," "Healing Begins," and "Strong Enough to Save."

As for whether we should confess our sins, I couldn't tell you if it's necessary for salvation, but I can tell you that we should still do it, probably more for ourselves than anything else. You can't list all your sins, because you (and by you I mean "we") are so sinful that you wouldn't know where to start. Everytihng you do is in some way tainted by sin. However, by confessing our exposed sin we learn to become holier. Having accountability is one of the best ways to do this. This will sort of leak into whether or not we should confess our sins to people (which, by the way, the bible tells us to do - James 5:16), because people can expose our sin to us. I know that I would definitely be a much more selfish and prideful person without my girlfriend, who is a lovely and godly person. Having her around forces me to look at my failures, because they hurt her, which in turn hurts me. There's sin I've had that I would never have been aware of if it weren't for her. Also, ask Jesus if there is any sin in your life that you are unaware of, so that you may repent* of it. I try to always do this before taking communion, especially.

Furthermore, while I don't know if we need to confess our sins to people to be forgiven by God (and I don't think that we do), I do believe that it is still the right thing to do. This is of course common knowledge; anyone can tell you that when you hurt someone, you need to ask their forgiveness. This not only forces humility onto us, which is good, but it gives them the opportunity to immitate Christ as well. And this again goes back to the James 5 verse.

* - Repent doesn't just mean apologizing. It means making it right and changing.

Question:

Given that we are all descended from the same families --

(Adam and Eve, Noah and Mrs. Noah ... Judaism says they know her name, BTW) --

how do you think racism got started? Was it a dispute between bad neighbors? a family feud that got out of control? children taunting each other who never were corrected? a political thing? economics? or who knows what. On the one hand, I wonder if it matters how it got started when we probably should focus on ending it. On the other hand I wonder, if we knew the root cause, could that help us to end it. Or do you think it's one of those sins we'll never entirely abolish in this life?

OT: How I came up with the question is that I have been looking for this poster of genealogy from Adam to Jesus for years and found it on Amazon via Faith Films which was the source. FaithFilms probably got it from Good Things Company. Originally it was sold by Cokesbury but GTC seems to have the patent nowadays and will sell direct. Personally I think more churches should have one since it shows our relationship both to Jesus and to each other.

The 'races' all got started with the dispersion at Babel (Genesis 11). Genetically, the genes with the families of the same language remained that way and the genes of the other 'races' eventually receded until we get what we have today. Racism is simply looking at another person or tribe who is different than you and hating them simply because they are different. It is pride, thinking you are the standard and anyone who doesn't live up to your standard is a 'lesser being'. Very often it's subtle and we make judgements based on stereotypes. Other times, it is more outright in what we see in typical films and videos of the American south.

What can we do about it? The same way Jesus went about going to the Samaritans. That was the equivalent racial tension back in his day to what we have had with the white/black relationship in America (or white/Hispanic). But remember that racism also tends to be two-way. It's not just the whites against the blacks, but the blacks against the whites as well, independent of political power. If blacks were the majority in political power, we'd see the same issues.

How do we see beyond the racial barriers? It's more than just 'seeing them as a person, not as a race'. We have to be Jesus to them. We have to look past the stereotypes. We have to avoid any appearance of judgement. We can't change how they look at us, but we can change how we look and act towards them.

I’m sorry for not coming in here for some time, and for bringing up a topic from some pages back. I read every response to me and appreciated them, but I figured I’d respond a bit later due to a. time b. better understanding once I’ve finished the class. I can now say that I agree with the Cannons of Dort, or at least 90-95% of them. I don’t really understand everything, ostensibly, but I agreed with so much and learned a lot during this class. I suppose my initial thought was that people might use things such as Unconditional Election as a license to sin, because after all, they are elected and will be preserved etc. We were unable to go through every point, unfortunately, so I do intent to read them over again, but I was relieved to find the articles which said that certain points could not be twisted to fit someone’s flawed philosophy, whether about repentance for sin or evangelism. Anyways, I appreciated your responses and let myself marinated with their points while going to the class.

So, yes, I see many of y’alls points.

Thanks for your post, Riella. I really appreciate how you answered my questions. I now see better about Total Depravity; I read somewhere on here by I believe it was Dr. Elwin Ransom, that Total Inability clarifies it a little further – Total depravity does not imply that man is to the highest degree of evil.

In response to what you said about the elect, I understand the point in the Cannons now and I can say I believe it in a deep sense – they are the elect whom God has chosen, who man does not know, etc. I’m still learning about it and am asking wisdom from God to interpret it as He wants it to be interpreted.

And I also understand and agree with the fact that salvation is of the Holy Spirit; He softens us to the Gospel. An interesting point that the pastor brought up was that without God, in our sin and dead, our free-will was dead, too; we couldn’t will what to do, we just obeyed sin. I think I can believe that. And as far as the Holy Spirit’s work in our hearts, I whole-heartedly believe that He initiates a response to God. The teacher also cited something from Spurgeon, “The thing with reconciling predestination and free will; you can’t really reconcile two friends.”

I understand what you mean. Thanks for your post!

I really appreciated your post, Fencer; it helped me see different takes on it. Thank-you!

Thanks for your response, The Black Glove, and the book recommendation. I’ve been meaning to see if any library nearby carries it.

I think it's also good to note that Predestination is a doctrine that is meant to comfort the Christian---it's an aid to assurance of salvation and a reassurance that, whatever doubts you may have, God is always faithful and will be there holding you up even when you fall.

Thanks. I understand this and find it comforting, too. I think the main reason why I shirked away from it was because of hearing “God’ll forgive you no matter what!!” relentlessly as a license to sin, and such. I’ve just heard it used so many times as “I know we’re supposed to be righteous in God’s ways and all, but this is our exit clause to fall into the same sin over and over again and we don’t even have to help you get out of it, because after all, we’re never going to be perfect.” The Reformed Pastor who was teaching the class, however, did not misquote Predestination and I was glad to see that the Cannons made it clear that a lax attitude wasn’t acceptable, so I was able to study it objectively.

Secondly, I would caution that Calvinism, if not taken in the correct context and treated with great caution, can easily become an issue the hurts the body of Christ. Calvinists must understand that this is not a dividing issue and one may still be a Christian, even while following Armenian doctrine. The moment Calvinism becomes such an issue that you aren't able to dialog with another Christian, you've pushed the limit, gone too far and need to seriously re-evaluate what the Gospel means. We must never exchange the dialog of the Gospel for a theological battle on issues that should remain open handed. As someone comes to Christ, matures in their walk and learns to love the Lord, those theological issues become more and more sure. If we have relationship with people, we should be able to have intelligent discussion with them in a loving way.

Thank-you for that; I was reminding myself to be wary of slipping into the mode of “If you’re not Calvinist, you don’t have it right and probably are not saved.” I think it’s important to make theologies conform to the Bible rather than the other way around.
I see your point, too; God’s sovreignity allows him to choose what and whomever He wills and now, in retrospect after taking the class and understanding everything better than I did that first day, I do believe that.

Thanks everyone for the responses; I really do appreciate them and felt like I should come in here and respond; apologies for this being very belated.