^ I always feel bad for him too. It makes me really mad at the Pharisees.

It's a good question about his salvation though. I haven't read the Gospels in their entirety yet (I'm reading cover to cover and am currently on Isaiah) but obviously I know the story. Judas was a follower of Christ but does that make him a Christian?

As a side note, in Inferno Dante imagines Judas as being in the deepest part of Hell but, of course, I know Dante isn't Scripture. Just thought I'd mention it.

Most have taken Judas' suicide to be the remorse of despair rather than that of repentance. However, if I can be saved, with all of my sin and betrayal of God, then so can he.

TBG

Well, maybe, maybe not. Judas Iscariot did something wrong and couldn't live with the consequences. Hence his action. But however remorseful he was, suicide is still wrong.

I'd prefer that any disincentives to suicide remain. It is not easy at all to talk someone so despairing of life out of such drastic action. Suicide being wrong, that it puts someone's immortal soul in peril, would be a strong disincentive I would have thought.

But however remorseful he was, suicide is still wrong.

Absolutely, no question. But there's grace, too and whenever we talk about sin, we have to talk about grace. We should not sin more that grace may abound.

TBG

Suicide...puts someone's immortal soul in peril

Does it? Christian scriptures are quiet about suicide. Not once does the Christian god ever explicitly condemn suicide, nor is there ever any mention of those who commit suicide putting their souls in danger. The ten commandments say "though shalt not murder," but it takes an enormous stretch of logic to say that suicide is murder, given that murder is almost always defined as an act done without the consent of the victim.

Foolish? Maybe. A mortal sin? No evidence for it.

Life is precious to God and murder is wrong- thus suicide is wrong.

Interesting, Berserker. I hadn't thought about the silence of Scriptures on this question.

I think the fundamental wrong thing about suicide is that it is assuming a right to decide which belongs to God alone - that is, to decide how long our lives will be, and when our trials/pilgrimage should end. But it's easy for me to say that, and I would really really not want to judge someone who took that decision. In any case, judging is also assuming a right which belongs to God alone.

I once talked to someone who believed suicide puts one's soul in danger, and asked them why they believed that; and they answered, "Because the Bible says that our bodies are holy temples and that if we destroy it, God will destroy us. That means, God will send us to Hell if we destroy our bodies."

I'm guessing they were talking about 1 Corinthians 3:17, which goes, "If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple."

Thoughts?

~Riella

The bible mentions the unforgivable sin - it doesn't say what it is, I don't believe, but my pastor and others I've spoken to believe that it is the blasphemy of God. Not just saying a swear word (:P), but to be in your right senses, calmly saying that God 1, doesn't exist, or 2, is not good. And this doesn't sound how it's supposed to. xDD
But suicide is certainly that. It's saying that I don't trust God, I don't believe he has a plan for me, so I will take it all in my own hands. I personally don't believe that anyone who commits suicide would go to heaven.
*slips out*

But suicide is certainly that. It's saying that I don't trust God, I don't believe he has a plan for me, so I will take it all in my own hands. I personally don't believe that anyone who commits suicide would go to heaven.
*slips out*

So a good, sincere, Christ-loving person one days gets an incurable disease that causes hideous, excruciating pain every waking moment of their life. They can't work, they can't talk, they can barely even keep their eyes open because of the pain. Unable to bear the torture, they decide to end their own life with an overdose of morphine.

Guess they go to hell to be tortured forever, huh?

As you can see, what you personally believe has nothing to do with the Bible. The Bible says nothing about suicide. Of course, the Christian god hates tattoos and cosmetic surgery too (big issues for an all-powerful all-knowing deity, I know,) so you've got to be careful. Hope you haven't pierced your ears!

The bible mentions the unforgivable sin - it doesn't say what it is,

It says in the Gospels that the unforgivable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. In Matthew 12, after Jesus heals someone with the power of the Holy Spirit, the Pharisees claim Jesus is using the power of the devil. In other words, they are claiming that the Holy Spirit is the devil (most likely purposely, and not because they don't know any better). And Jesus says to them:

31 And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

~Riella

As you can see, what you personally believe has nothing to do with the Bible.

Very true, thank you - I see I didn't state myself correctly. What I said is simply my own (and other people I know) perception of what the Bible says/means - I could obviously be wrong.

So a good, sincere, Christ-loving person one days gets an incurable disease that causes hideous, excruciating pain every waking moment of their life. They can't work, they can't talk, they can barely even keep their eyes open because of the pain. Unable to bear the torture, they decide to end their own life with an overdose of morphine.

Again, it is my perception that yes, they would go to hell. Remember Job? If he had taken his life and cursed God, would he have gone to heaven? I don't think so. Because you're suffering pain, and you perceive your life as useless, you can end it?

Suicide...puts someone's immortal soul in peril

Does it? Christian scriptures are quiet about suicide. Not once does the Christian god ever explicitly condemn suicide, nor is there ever any mention of those who commit suicide putting their souls in danger. The ten commandments say "though shalt not murder," but it takes an enormous stretch of logic to say that suicide is murder, given that murder is almost always defined as an act done without the consent of the victim.

Foolish? Maybe. A mortal sin? No evidence for it.

Suicide is definitely a mortal sin. In fact I can't think of any sin more mortal, in fact since it is killing oneself, i.e. the results are mortal. That is plain common sense, if nothing else. Does anyone need a whole Bible to confirm what is sheer common sense?

The 10 commandments tell us Do not kill, after all. It said also to honour thy father and mother. Killing oneself is not honouring the father and mother who gave one life. In Deuteronomy we are told to choose life, not death. Suicide is a choice for death.

Death is final, a closed book and the end of the story. There can be no second chances in this life once life has departed. Verse after verse tells us not to contact the dead, not to seek to know from them what the future will be, not to deal with necromancy, seances and the like. No I won't waste sympathy on Judas Iscariot. It isn't as if he is going to come back to life to discover that for 2,000 years he has been held up as the basest of traitors for what he did wrong in this life. That in itself would be a kind of hell, whatever Dante said about the inferno.

All of us, being mortal humans, doomed to die, will die soon enough anyway. The important thing is to die at peace with oneself, having been been forgiven of sin by God's grace. Killing oneself does not suggest one is at peace with oneself or with God.

Some suicides are mentioned in the Bible. Not only Judas Iscariot but also Saul, the King. But was it Jesus or Paul who said Greater love hath noone than he who lays down his life for others? Is suicide laying down one's life for others? I think not.

Elanor, I understand what you are trying to say, but unfortunately, the logic doesn't work. Suicide is not unforgiveable because it isn't blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. If mere unbelief or reckoning of oneself as worthless were unforgiveable, then we'd all be going to Hell. In the passage mentioned, Jesus is addressing a very particular situation where the Pharisees were muttering among themselves about whether Jesus' miracles were demonic in origin. I think understanding this context makes it a bit clearer that blasphemy against the Spirit is something very different.

Is suicide wrong? Absolutely, no question. Is it a sign of hopelessness? Yes. But that simply means that one had a moment or period of weakness where they felt separated from God. Would Job have gone to Heaven if he had cursed God and died? No, because in doing that he would have rejected God. But I can see where someone could be despairing about their present circumstances and, in a moment of weakness, do a terrible thing.

The other reason why I'd like to be careful with this one is because I think it important (as in the case of infant salvation) to be able to extend words of comfort to grieving Christian parents. I think that the Scriptures give us hope here, as in the case of infant salvation, and so we should embrace the fact that the grace of God is big enough to cover even this.

TBG

Yes, TBG, that is a good argument. I can see where you are coming from with what you are saying. But from the POV of a mother, Christian or not, I would want to do everything under the sun to prevent my child's destruction, even if it means scaring him/her off the notion with threats of hell-fire. I'd rather die myself than see my child destroy herself. I hope my children understand this.

Life is too short to get too dramatic over lost jobs, lost romantic opportunities etc. All anyone can do is continue on, keep trying, keep learning and hope for a better future. Just like Job.