Eustace+Jill, I don't think it's wise to write a book on free-will versus predestination if you don't understand what you're writing about. And why does it have to be one or the other? Why can't it be that God gave people free-will but also predestined their paths? He's sovereign and we have choices. I think it's difficult to deny either one, especially in light of God's Word.

If we have no free will, then does that mean God chose what you want for lunch for you?

I know Bookwyrm is being funny to make a point, but really Eustace+Jill, how far can you take the idea that we have no free-will? Wait. How did we choose to reject God in the first place (ala Adam and Eve), if we don't have choice? If we have no free-will, why do we continue to choose to sin, over doing what is right by God? Is that part of God's plan? Far be it from me to second-guess God and his motives, but I'd say sin and death were contrary to his original plan for his creation. You want to be careful, there are some mighty dangerous ideas there.

When it comes to free will or predestination I still like the "ant on a yardstick" explanation.
Picture us, (the ants), living our lives, (the yardstick we are on). God, (being divine, all seeing, etc.) knows where we go, when etc. But we in our limited view cannot see beyond our vision.
Which answers some other questions that trouble people. Like, why didn't God just fry this gut who has been oppressing people? Well, maybe that person's actions, (free will) are what eventually led to someone else being saved. God knowing this, (predestination) allowed these thing to happen for that reason.
I know that's rather simplistic, but I hope it helps.

Eustace+Jill, I don't think it's wise to write a book on free-will versus predestination if you don't understand what you're writing about. And why does it have to be one or the other?

I do understand it. I just wanted to see what everyone on here thought about it, because it's always been a subject of interest to me. I thought it might be a good topic of conversation.
I am also still in the research phase of the book -- a time where I like to hear the different viewpoints of a number of trustworthy people. And the people on here seemed pretty trustworthy.

I believe there's both at the same time too, just like you said.

If we have no free-will, why do we continue to choose to sin, over doing what is right by God? Is that part of God's plan?

I absolutely love this example! People I've met have told me that God is the one who makes them sin, but I never really believed them, of course. God is good, and therefore would never cause someone to sin.

~Riella

I too believe that it is both at the same time. It is always interesting how people use Pharoah to illustrate the predestination side, but they always forget to turn back a few pages to Exodus 3, at the Burning Bush. There God reveals to Moses that Pharoah had already 'chosen' that he would not listen to him. God didn't make Pharoah refuse to let them go, but rather blinded him to seeing that the plagues taking place were from him.

I've also here that an easy way to interpret the two is man's point of view vs God's point of view. From our perspective we really do have a choice to go one way or the other. Even if someone holds a gun to your head and threatens you to do something you don't want to do, you have a choice to do it in fear of being shot, or not to and take the risk of the decisions of the one with the gun. But that is just a direct physical example. Satan works the same way. He will use threats to get us to sin. "Do this bad thing, or I'll do this to you or to someone you care about." Satan does this to believers and non-believers alike. And both groups have a choice to give in or not.

God, however, has such infinite wisdom that he not only knows what wew will decide in which situation, he proactively sets things up based on those choices. So it appears like predestination from our side. God works through relationship and parternship with us. That is his choice of doing things. He can do it all by himself if he wanted to, but he chose to perform his actions through us. We, believer or not, are not mere drones of God or mere chess pieces, but active servants.

The ability to be creative, the ability to choose between one thing or another, is part of being made in the image of God. Yes, our choices are limited by our character and circumstances, but they don't make the choices, no matter how inclined we are towards one. I have an opportunity to go to a big fencing tournament in a couple weeks that will be paid for by my university and I have every inclination to go to that meet. But in seeking God's wisdom and looking at my school circumstances, I chose to stay back from this one. I can still change my mind in a few days. This is a light example.

Where the conflict always arises is when it comes to salvation. The predesintation side says those in sin can't help but choose sin. They can't choose good or God. But when God calls them, they are drawn in irrisistibly, are 'reborn', and then has the power to choose between good and evil. Free-will is often misused to say we can choose God or good whenever we want. I do not agree with that interpretation. But the one thing that I have had to wrestle with between this thread, sermons I've heard and other things, is whether the whole predestination stuff that Paul talks about in Romans is actually talking about salvation or not. I usually can't get it written down before he is past it, but my pastor refers to the predestination in reference to birthright and to what is in store for us after the point of salvation. But we still have the choice to accept Jesus or not as our personal Lord and Savior.

Let me use a this as an illustration. Someone in sin is lost. They are in darkness, blind, and doesn't know one way from another. They continue to sin, because not only are they lost and cannot help but acting lost, they actually don't even know they are lost. They wander to and fro at whatever calls them. We have to remember that we have a villian who is trying to keep us separated from God, and he will keep telling us to do one thing or another to prevent us from hearing God. But at some point, God comes into the picture and removes the blinders. That person will then see they are lost, see that Jesus knows the way out from their pit, and understand that only by following him will they get out. But they have to decide to actually walk and follow his path or not. I believe every single person is given the chance to accept Jesus or not.

Something else I've struggled to understand, but am starting to get is that God willing suspends his desires so that we can make our choices. God doesn't necessarily always get what he wants. 2 Peter says God is willing that none would perish but that all might come into repentance. But we know that not everyone does. God didn't want Adam and Eve to eat of the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, otherwise he would not have told them to not do it. But he willing suspended that desire so that they might have the ability to decide whether to follow him or not. And in God's amazing wisdom, he not only knew that they would, he knew when they would. And what I learned from the Star of Bethlehem presentation is that God set the stars and planets in motion so that they would be aligned at the exact time of his birth and death. That also meant he had to orchestrate all of history so that the Roman Empire would come to prominance and Ceasar Augustus would require the census that sent Joseph and Mary to Bethlehem.

God is sovereign over everything, including our choices. That doesn't mean he makes them for us, including salvation. But he has control over the circumstances that brought up the choice and control of what happens as a result of that choice. I don't see free-will and predestination as an either/or, but as a both/and. It is an interesting discussion, but only as the sides of the discussion are working towards a closer understanding of who God is and not bickering over a small point.

Back here for the first time in many weeks ...

I would also love to hear anything anyone has to say about the free-will/pre-destination issue, as it may help me with my writing to hear some viewpoints I haven't heard yet.

If you like -- if you're still around! -- I can go back and find some of the previous debates over this in the old Christianity discussions.

One of the best and most balanced summaries of Biblical doctrine on the issue is in Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology (there's also a condensed version, which I have, called Bible Doctrine). Grudem is especially good at focusing us first on what the Bible teaches about God's free will, which is freer than man's (and man does have the ability to make meaningful choices, as I'll summarize below).

God's freedom is that attribute of God whereby he does whatever he pleases. This definition implies that nothing in all creation can hinder God from doing his will. God is not constrained by anything external to himself, and he is free to do whatever he wishes to do. No person or force can ever dictate to God what he should do. He is under no authority or external restraint.

[. . .]

Since God is free, we should not try to seek any more ultimate answers for God's actions in creation than the fact that he willed to do something and that his will has perfect freedom (so long as the actions he takes are consistent with his own moral character). Sometimes people try to discover the reason why God had to do one or another action (such as create the world or save us). It is better simply to say that it was God's totally free will (working in a way consistent with his character) that was the final reason why he chose to create the world and save sinners and thereby bring glory to himself.

[. . .]

There are, however, some things that God cannot do. God cannot will or do anything that would deny his own character. [. . .] For example, God cannot lie (Titus 1:2), he cannot be tempted with evil (James 1:13), and he cannot deny himself (2 Tim. 2:13). Although God's power is infinite, his use of that power is qualified by his other attributes (just as all God's attributes qualify all his actions). This is therefore another instance where misunderstanding would result if one attribute were isolated from the rest of God's holy character and emphasized in a disproportionate way.

I don't think people have free will, in regards to Salvation. I've never seen a verse in the Bible that led me to believe so. And this confirms my beliefs

Glenstorm, I think I can see what you're getting at, but this seems to connote that humans do not have the ability to make meaningful choices. Though Scripture does not refer directly to humans' "free will" in so many words, the concept is there by implication. However:

1. Scripture is mainly about God and Who He is, and what He has done, is doing and will do, and so emphasizes His free will.

2. Man's ability to make decisions must be defined by Scripture, and not superseded by the definitions of philosophy or a System (no matter how internally consistent it seems to be!).

(Lest you think I'm just picking on you, Glenstorm, I love your Avatar avatar and signature ... )

Jonathan Edwards, likely the greatest Reformed scholar in American history, outlined a still-not-yet-rebutted argument that allows for both man's "free will" (though defined and limited by God's free will) and God's sovereignty. Man can make meaningful choices, yes, but those choices will always be based on something man cannot help: his nature. For example, I might freely choose to fly, but because of my nature I simply can't. The same is true of a person whom God's grace has not saved: people can make meaningful choices, but because of their natures, they will always end up the same way: into sin. And we're responsible for that.

Hope that makes sense!

People I've met have told me that God is the one who makes them sin, but I never really believed them, of course. God is good, and therefore would never cause someone to sin.

Amen, and that's what the Bible says. Those who would claim otherwise are trying for a logical loophole: maybe they think they can take one part of Scripture (like God is in control of everything], cut it off from the rest, then derive another point from that piece alone. Way to go. They've then made up a world that doesn't exist, with nonexistent rules.

Also relevant here is the issue of God's "two wills," which some have referred to as His revealed will or will of command (His commands to obey) and His hidden or secret will (what will actually happen, regardless of what He has commanded out loud). Grudem also summarizes those well.

Why can't it be that God gave people free-will but also predestined their paths? He's sovereign and we have choices. I think it's difficult to deny either one, especially in light of God's Word.

This is compatibilism, and yes, it does match (though of course this view holds some variations!) what Scripture presents to us.

Hi Eustace+Jill. I disagree with the suggestion that you should not write a book "if you don't know what you are talking about." I think that's different from the suggestion that you not publish the book if it turns out to be not very good. It's the word "book" that is distracting them, I think. After all there is an unofficial syndrome called "writing the Great American novel." (Sample usage: "Is your brother-in-law looking for a job?" "No, he's decided to write the Great American novel instead." Since he is not showing self-discipline in other areas of his life we guess in advance that nothing will come of this project.)

Put it this way: if you had to write a five-page essay for school and you didn't know the subject material, would people here say, "Oh, don't attempt it. Just take the failing grade. You should only attempt a project if you are guaranteed that you will succeed." No, they would recognize that the purpose of the exercise is for you to learn the material. In other words, go for it. And keep asking questions.

Since you'll have more room to work with, you can introduce your book by saying what you are sure that you know; what you think you know; what you don't know and are hoping to find out; and the sources you start with. Tell the reader which Bible translation is your gold standard, the one you'll use unless specified otherwise, but don't neglect to compare translations for clarity. In the middle, you write about what you are learning. Document your sources all the way. That way, even if readers disagree with you, they can point to the turn on the roadmap, the ingredient in the recipe, the measurement in the formula where they think you went astray. (You will be doing the same thing with your sources, after all!) At the end you write about what you learned; what you now know that you thought you knew and you really didn't; what you knew and didn't know that you knew; and other things like that. Also, since your topic is free will versus predestination, be honest with the reader and with yourself that this is a big topic that has been debated for thousands of years, and you may not be able to solve it all while standing on one foot, so to speak.

As to the subject itself, I like the rabbi's proverb, "We have to use our free will; we have no choice in the matter."

The Old Maid, I already know enough about it to write a book. I was just asking what you guys's opinion on it was, just out of curiosity, in order to see if you believed the same thing I do. The question isn't whether or not I should write the book. (It's not even the kind of book you guys are thinking it is -- just forget I mentioned the book.) I just wanted to know your opinions on the orginal question.

Thanks you guys for all the comments! I love studying and talking about the Bible.

~Riella

Hello all! I've never posted one of these threads before, but I have read and enjoyed them.

Today I was doing my devotional reading in 1 Chronicles 21 where Satan provokes David to takes a census of Israel. God does not like this one bit and He unleashes His wrath upon Israel until David makes peace with the Lord by way of burnt offerings.

I got to wondering why taking a census at this time was wrong. God told Moses to take a census, so why can't David? Could it be giving David too much power? Then I thought that maybe this is something that God needs to tell you to do and you shouldn't do it without knowing it is in His Will.

To make matters more confuse I cross-referenced to 2 Samuel 24. The same story, but with a big difference. Here it says God provoked David to take the census!

Not only do I still not know why David taking a census was evil, but now I have two more questions. This seems like a contradiction, because one says Satan provoked David and the othe say it was God. They couldn't both want the same thing. And if the latter is true, why would God provoke David into doing something He disapproves of.

Insight would be appreciated.

"Now Satan stood against Israel, and moved David to number Israel."
-1 Chronicles 21, NKJ

"Again the anger of the Lord was aroused against I srael and He moved David against them to say, 'Go, number Israel and Judah.'"
2 Samuel 24, NKJ

Let us look at both of the verses in full context.

" And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel. And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan; and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it.

And God was displeased with this thing; therefore he smote Israel."

Now, if we look closely around 1 Chronicles 21, we can see that Israel is at war. David takes the census to see how many troops he can muster, having distrust in God's strength to supply his army (because he was tempted by Satan), which is why this would be considered wicked to God, being a reason to punish Israel.

Moses takes a census because God commands him to. David also takes another census because he is commanded by God. A census in itself is not considered wicked by God, but the motives behind taking a census can be.

Xenophanes, said it pretty well. The issue was not the census, but the heart. David wanted to compare his numbers with his enemies and putting his battle strategy and trust in his numbers, not on God. Joab as well as Orieus in LWW had the same ideal response: "Numbers do not win a battle". And interestingly enough, to teach David to put his trust in the Lord and not his militaristic might (which was pretty impressive as David was the world's most powerful person at the time), 70,000 Israelites had to die via plague (as oppossed to the other options of 7 years famine or six months enemy occupation). It's pretty intense stuff.

Now, if we look closely around 1 Chronicles 21, we can see that Israel is at war. David takes the census to see how many troops he can muster, having distrust in God's strength to supply his army (because he was tempted by Satan), which is why this would be considered wicked to God, being a reason to punish Israel.

Moses takes a census because God commands him to. David also takes another census because he is commanded by God. A census in itself is not considered wicked by God, but the motives behind taking a census can be.

Aha! That makes perfect sense.

Although I still wonder about my other two questions: why does 1 Chronicles say Satan provoked David to take a census and why does 2 Samuel say it was God? And why would God tell David (as it says in 2 Samuel 24) to number his people if it was against His Will?

Here are a couple things to think about. We know God will never tempt us. It is against his nature, but Satan does. But we also know that Satan often acts as God's messenger boy without even knowing it. Example is Job. God was the that pointed Job out to Satan. Satan didn't ask to torment him, God offered him up. Looking at the whole context, we can surmise that God told Satan to tempt David. This is seen in 2 Kings when God brought a lying spirit in to get Ahab to go to war where he would be killed.

Something else to consider is that 2 Samuel states that God's anger was against Israel, not David. This explains why the punishment was directed at the people, not David directly. It is theorized that this is due to many people's support of Abosalam's rebellion. No proof but mere speculation. It is difficult to explain and we cannot always understand God's actions, but he knew what he was doing.

That will give me something to think about. Thanks.