Self-analysis can be very dangerous. Comparison to others when in ministry is a clever tactic of the enemy. But let this encourage you. I was on a mission trip many years ago (I've been on countless for 21+ years) to Mexico with International Family Missions. There was a husband and wife couple on the team that has pretty significant differences in their gifts. The husband was very outgoing, eager to preach on the street corners of the markets, led the VBS Bible Clubs, and was a pretty much do everything guy. The wife however, could hardly do any of that. And it wasn't long before she started to compare her 'results' with his. But the team leader talked to her about this and revealed to her that her role was encouragement and without her presense being there, she would not have encouraged the team leader and others from being able to do the jobs that they did.

My parents have a calling with helps ministry. They do the behind-the-scenes jobs that enable the 'in-front-of-the-camera' jobs to happen. When we house a group like we are now, we do everything we can to make sure the floors are swept and mopped, the dorm roofs don't leak (which we have to check after a little rain last night), the vehicles work, the kitchen is ready for us, the vans (or bus) is loaded, and all this kind of stuff. We approach it like a tapestry. We try to do everything we can so that someone looking at the front of the tapestry cannot see us from behind trying to tie up all the knots in the back that hold it together. This approach enables those that have the gifts of ministry like the husband I mentioned to do their job without having to think about the little things behind.

This is all part of being the body of Christ. Not everyone has to be the hand or the eye or the foot. Paul warns us against not needing a particular part of the body, but I could take it a bit further and say we should not have every part of the body seeking to do the same job. That being said, if your gift is prayer and intercession, and not public speaking and evangelism, then your role is not to do public speaking. Your role is to stay back and pray so that the person doing the speaking can speak clearly without having to also fight against the enemy who would try to confuse and bring chaos to the speaker's mind.

I believe every single person has a complete unique combination of gifts that no other person in the world has. The list above are just some major ones. I have gifts in sports, math, and writing. I'm good at all them but not necessarily the absolute best at them. If I don't put them them use, then I would be guilty of the sin the last servant did in the parable of the talents. That doesn't mean I have to use fencing for ministry. I know other fencers that are much better than I am and are believers and use their gift to make themselves better people. I would put them in the same boat as me in terms of putting thier gift to use.

Now here is another aspect to the parable of the talents. Each servant was giving talents according to their ability. Why did one get five, one get two and one get one? (or ten, five, and one?) It was because one had the ability to handle five (or ten), one could handle two (five) but not five (ten), and the last one could only handle one at a time. By putting thier skills to use the first two servants increased thier skills (money is the original context but skills still apply). The last one didn't put his money or skills to use and let it go to waste. God wants us to use our abilities. I have a gift in math. I could go into engineering or computer development (Computer Science graduate), but God has called me into teaching. I am putting that gift to use. If I were to just stick with being a competitive fencer and working at McDonalds or as a stocker or sacker at Wal-Mart, not letting my skills be used productively (not saying any of those are bad, but doing something where my skills would not be used) would that be productive use of my skills? We each have skills and abilities. Some may appear to be bigger than others, but each one of us has a critical role to play. Without that role, the body of Christ hurts. I'm trying to do my part. I'm not perfect and sometimes I don't do my role, but I'm striving to go that direction. Let's all do that as well.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it...And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Or perhaps...

In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it...And the Logos became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Or maybe even...

In the beginning was the Rational Discourse, and the Rational Discourse was with God, and the Rational Discourse was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it...And the Rational Discourse became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

God IS philosophy.

Any thoughts?

You make a very good point. If you don't take the time to grieve and especially don't take the time to be angry at injustice, then you're robbing yourself of an important part of the healing process. Too many people have been hurt by Christians who say otherwise. It's damaging and dishonest to sweep hurt and sin under a rug. Best to deal with it over time, take it to Christ and let him sort it out.

Fair point, again. Getting back to forgiveness, what do you say about Corrie Ten Boom's quote:

"Forgiveness is an act of the will, and the will can function regardless of the temperature of the heart."

It happens the minister has said much about forgivenenss, especially last week after that Norway atrocity. In the course of a year or so he has also mentioned Corrie Ten Boom more than once, especially this particular incident she related in one of her books and also in the Wikipedia article I linked to and quoted from.

Her teaching focused on the Christian Gospel, with emphasis on forgiveness. In her book Tramp for the Lord (1974), she tells the story of how, after she had been teaching in Germany in 1947, she was approached by one of the cruelest former Ravensbrück camp guards. She was reluctant to forgive him, but prayed that she would be able to. She wrote that,

For a long moment we grasped each other's hands, the former guard and the former prisoner. I had never known God's love so intensely as I did then.
She also wrote (in the same passage) that in her post-war experience with other victims of Nazi brutality, it was those who were able to forgive who were best able to rebuild their lives.

She was known for her rejection of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture doctrine. Her writings claim that it is without Biblical foundation, and she has claimed that the doctrine left the Christian Church ill-prepared in times of great persecution, such as in China under Mao Zedong. She appeared on many Christian television programs discussing her ordeal during the Holocaust, and the concepts of forgiveness and God's love.

I am interested in reading about this lady who suffered a lot. But what is meant by the Pre-Tribulation Rapture doctrine?

I am quite happy with those lovely quotes from the Gospel of John Andrew mentions. But is God love or is God the Word? Are they the same thing philosphically?

Only got a couple minutes. Pre-Tribulation Rapture is the belief that all believers will be called up to heaven before the 7 years of the Tribulation. During the Tribulation, the world will truly be unified under a single government, the Anti-Christ will have risen to power, the temple rebuilt, the two Witnesses will be revealed, and the Anti-Christ will declare himself to be God. It will also be during the Tribulation that the 21 Judgements of Revelation (the 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and 7 bowls) of God's wrath will be poured onto the earth.

Pre-Tribulation is the concept that believers will be rescued from this and will watch it from heaven before returning to the earth with Christ when he returns. It is widely accepted that this will be sudden, unexpected, and instantaneous. Cars going down the road will suddenly no longer have drivers, same with airplane pilots. This is the approach Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins used for thier Left Behind Series.

I tend to side with Pre-Tribulation more than the others. But I don't agree with Corrie Ten's Boom's claim that it would be unBiblical. At the same time, the other rapture doctrines are just as possible. I also fully agree that many Christians are truly un-prepared for times of great persecution. But that has happened throughout the ages and has little to do with the Tribulation. The Tribulation is simiply when it will reach its ultimate peak and will truly be world-wide.

But Corrie Ten Boom has such a powerful testimony of someone who helped Jews escape Nazi persecution and hid them, someone who suffered greatly at the hands of the concentration camp officers, she lost her sister in her hands to the camp, was released on a clerical error when she was supposed to be executed along with many others, and her understanding and revelation about the real nature of forgiveness is something very few can relate with. If Corrie Ten Boom could find the power to forgive the camp guard that asked for it, how on earth could we who have never suffered a remote glimpse of her ordeal, not forgive? And even better, when God forgives us of our sin, which to a holy God with a standard of perfect is a horrific crime, how much more should we be expected to forgive of the many trite offenses we are dealt with?

Wagga wrote:
I am interested in reading about this lady.

Ten Boom's title The hiding place is in print and audio formats. Interestingly, Corrie originally considered herself the more cynical of her sisters. Her sister Betsie, who died in the camps, once prayed, "Thank you, God, for the lice," which used to make Corrie almost frantic (both the lice and her sister's contentedness). But it turned out that the lice kept the camp guards out of the women's barracks. A recommended book, definitely.

But what is meant by the Pre-Tribulation Rapture doctrine?

You're playing my song! [points to link in siggy. Is long, bring toothbrush for your visit.] Basically, Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a belief that Scripture says that the last generation of Christians will not be present upon the earth as it perishes but will be translated (raptured) off the earth, as were Enoch and Elijah, to observe from a safe distance.

The majority of Christians believe that the last generation of the earth will stay on it to the bitter end, and that it is a time for the endurance of the saints. They say that the pre-Trib Rapture teaching is based upon a mistranslation of certain key verses and over-generalization of Rev. 4:1, in which John and only John is taken to Heaven, shown signs and wonders, and sent back to earth to write what he saw.

Either way, such beliefs don't necessary qualify as hills to die on, so to speak.

That gifts test looks interesting. Am hoping my schedule will give me a breather to try it soon.

Andrew ... you sound different!

Meanwhile, I haven't put a lot of stock in "spiritual gift" quizzes/surveys. That's mainly because I doubt the lists of spiritual gifts in Paul's epistles are comprehensive. For example, someone may be gifted by the Spirit in certain kinds of creative arts expressions to honor God, as were Bezalel and his craftspersons team in the book of Exodus, whom God appointed to build the Tabernacle.

For that reason, I think it would be equally fine to take a secular career-placement quiz. If you are a Christian, whatever gifts it accurately shows you have, you attribute to the Holy Spirit. And even if you're not a Christian, God has given you those gifts out of common grace anyway. Now follow what you know is His revealed will: repent and believe the Gospel, and live your life in gratitude to the Giver Who gives Himself.

I wanted to give a follow up on what God did through me this past week. I got to share for 30 minutes at a girl's refuge center and use my sport to teach several practical life lessons with a general theme of spiritual warfare. The responses were incredible. This presentation followed a great message where 8 girls accepted Christ and at least a dozen got baptized. Afterwards there was a powerful time of prayer and the Holy Spirit just fell onto the room. I've been recruited to do this presentation on a large scale by Operation Mobilization. God hasn't called me that direction right now but through my talk with them, I was able to bring the vision God gave me into a more concrete form. This presentation is what came of that. I still need a lot of practice but God is going to use this mightily in both the near and distant future. Here are the links to the 2-part presentation.

Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QA40T8pu ... re=related
Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnO62QIo ... tube_gdata

Great stuff, Fencer! I just hope there are people in place to disciple the new Christians, that very important side is often neglected.

The refuge center is run by a very strong believer. I don't know how long the girls stay there, but the facility is run by faith and the girls are taught the Bible daily. So yes, we fully believe in follow-up. The Bible says make disciples, not converts. The group I was assisting is from Arkansas but they return there 3-4 times a year and this place is one they always visit. So while the girls are there, there is discipling from the center staff and from this group and several others when they visit.

As for my part, I still need to do some tweaking and practice. I didn't know I was going to be doing that until about 9:30pm the night before so it was a bit of a scramble and some good praying to figure out what I would share. This is where I thank the Lord for my gift in discernment because God tends to tell me things seemingly out of the blue but it is exactly what needs to be said for that given moment. The lesson I taught on forgiveness was one of these things. I wanted to find a way to give a lesson for that last action which is called an 'inquartada' and it all came to me at once last year. It was the Lord speaking to me and it's a powerful message. I'm really excited about seeing where God is going to take this fledgling ministry he's given me over the last seven years because it is powerful and effective. Not becasue of me or my skills, but because it was set up by the Lord and directed by him. I just made myself available for him to use and he is using me.

Well, for what it's worth, my test scores came out fairly spiked on the ends.

Celibacy=12 (duh). I'd call Error 404 on a test that didn't.

Word of knowledge=9. Sounds good. Research is fun with the right topic.

Hospitality/Teaching/Mercy/Helps/Giving all came up in a high cluster.

Tongues? Big honkin' zero. Healing wasn't much better.

I guess then that my way of healing is to throw money at it.

Conina wrote:
This is all part of being the body of Christ. Not everyone has to be the hand or the eye or the foot. Paul warns us against not needing a particular part of the body, but I could take it a bit further and say we should not have every part of the body seeking to do the same job.

Pretty much. What surprises me is how many people -- in real life, not here, I'm sure! -- want to be elbows.

...

EDIT: Oops, you're right. Fencer for Jesus wrote that quote. Sorry.

That was actually me who said that The Old Maid, not Conina. It's really sad that about 80% of the work done by the church body is done by 20% of the church body. So many don't want to do thier part or they all want to do the same part. Many are just in their own little world and don't have a clue of what the whole body is trying to do or needs to do. And when you have people not doing the job they need to do, someone else who doesn't have a gifting in that area must step in because the job needs to be done. This leads to exhaustion, lack of communication and eventually potential breakdown. The church as a whole needs to step up and wake up. I'm trying to do my part as the Lord leads. I'm not perfect nor will I be until Christ returns but one person can't do it. One person may spark it, but one can't do it alone. Let's seek the Lord and have him reveal where we need to act for our role.

I think these church revivals start with prayer. I think that prayer is the heart beat of our church body. Not that we shouldn't act but I think prayer is a hugely necessary part for change to happen.

Without prayer, it doesn't happen. Acts without faith are nothing. But likewise, without action, faith is dead. My pastor is seeking an opportunity to approach a city-wide (El Paso, but he is also thinking state of Texas) 40-day fast with revival in the forefront. And I heard a report from Texas Gov. Rick Perry's prayer meeting this weekend and that 40-day fast was also mentioned. Of course, fasting has never been a strong part of my faith. I'm sure many of us can say the same thing. We'll see what happens.

I personally don't see what good comes of fasts. I don not believe in them in the very least. I never understood them, nor do I think I ever will.

Fasting is part of boot camp or basic training, although nowadays perhaps some denominations substitute another discipline instead. Here are some of the answers I've heard.

From a Catholic website:

Christians have fasted (gone without food) and abstained (gone without certain foods, especially meat) since the beginning. The Book of Genesis teaches that all the plants and animals that God created and entrusted to human beings are good, especially those given to us as food (Genesis 1:29). Jesus taught that nothing that a person eats makes him or her evil (Mark 7:18). So why then do Christians fast and abstain?

When the devil tempts Jesus in the desert with a comfortable life and a full stomach, Jesus recalls the wisdom of Deuteronomy: "One does not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God" (8:3). Fasting and abstaining makes this real. It also hones our appetite, training us for the basic stance of a baptized person in this world: gratitude. Doesn't something taste better once you've truly hungered for it? Aren't we more grateful for what we've hungered and thirsted for?

Jesus recommended fasting, but not as a mere formality--and certainly not as a burden to be imposed on the poor who have to eat when they can, even if in violation of religious tradition. Instead Jesus recommended fasting when one fails to sense that God is near.

(Read the whole article here).

From the "Rapture Ready" website:

Fasting is the foregoing of a meal or consumption of food for a predetermined period of time. A fast may be warranted before blood tests or a medical procedure. Sometimes, very obese people need to go on a liquid diet, which would considered a fast as well.

A religious fast is something else, entirely. In a religious fast, a Christian will sacrifice his natural desire for food in order to spend time seeking God regarding a specific issue. The intention is that all the time that would be spent acquiring, preparing and consuming food will, instead, be spent in the presence of God through prayer, worship or meditation on the Word.

Also, the heightened sense of awareness obtained through hunger serves as a reminder of the purpose of the fast. The goal is to replace the feeding of the needs of physical hunger with the feeding of one’s spiritual hunger by the means of intimacy with God.

Jesus fasted from all food and drink, except water (Luke 4:2). The Bible also describes some extreme times that people fasted from everything, including water. See Exodus 34:28, Deuteronomy 9:9, Ezra 10:6, Esther 4:16 and Acts 9:9. This type of fast is usually reserved for extreme circumstances.

There are also “partial fasts” that restrict only certain foods or meals. A person may choose to fast through breakfast to allow extra time for prayer and worship. While biblical fasts do refer to abstaining from food, I have heard, many times, of people “fasting” from the television. I am sure that if there had been televisions in Bible days, Jesus would have called everyone to “fast” from them!

Please note, however, that a fast, whether partial or absolute, is quite different than giving up something for “Lent.” The motive in a fast cannot be that God will find favor with you because you gave up your favorite candy bar. The motive must be the realization that the world has crowded in around you and you need some clarity and some deep intimacy with God. It all comes down to the intent of your heart.

from http://www.raptureready.com/faq/faq27.html

From http://www.Bible.ca :

Fasting was habitual for John's disciples (Matthew 9:14), for Anna (Luke 2:36-37) the Pharisees (Matthew 9:14), Cornelius (Acts 10:30) and for Paul (II Corinthians 6:5, 11:27). Jesus fasted for forty days and nights and told the disciples of John that his disciples would fast when the bridegroom was taken from them. (Matthew 9:15). Apparently, fasting alone does not move God, for in Isaiah 58:3-9 the people asked "Why have we fasted, and thou seest it not?", and the answer is given: "Behold you fast only to quarrel and to fight and to hit with wicked fist. Fasting like yours this day will not make your voice to be heard on high." Again in Jeremiah 14:12, the Lord said: "though they fast, I will not hear their cry". Here the Lord's people had turned to wickedness and the prophet was asked to refrain even from praying for them. In Zechariah 7:5, their fasting was lost because of wickedness. Thus, fasting is not a substitute for righteousness.

Fasting, like any other act of devotion can be empty and for show only, hence the Pharisee of Luke 18:12 who fasted twice a week was not justified. Jesus condemns as hypocrites those who wear a sad countenance that they may appear to men to fast (Matthew 6:16).

It is easy to understand why fasting is not popular today. With so much emphasis on pleasure and selfindulgence as constituting the good life, any appeal to self-denial is unpopular. Eating has been regarded as one of the nations greatest problems, especially eating for enjoyment. This very condition actually enhances the value of fasting for a person with this attitude if he could be persuaded to try it.

The physical aspect of fasting is beyond the scope of this lesson. Health and body condition is such a highly individualized matter, that its results cannot be generalized. There are few, if any, however, who could not leave off a meal now and then to the benefit of their physical well-being.

Fasting, like prayer, may bring blessings to the participant apart from the special blessings bestowed by the Heavenly Father. For the person who would gain in self-control it is excellent practice. It may contribute to weight control and economy of time and food cost, but like prayer, Jesus taught that its greatest benefit would come from the special blessings of God.

Perhaps our strongest New Testament teaching on the subject is from the Sermon on the mount when Jesus was teaching that we should be careful not to make a show of our religion before men. When we do an act of charity, pray, or fast, they should be done without public attention, and with each of these it is stated that, "your Father who sees what is done in secret will regard you" Matthew 6:1-8). Doesn't it seem likely that he expected his followers to fast since he gave them instructions for the proper way to conduct it?

Christians today would do well to consider fasting as a means of drawing closer to God, or gaining spiritual strength. It is not a command, it is a privileges In times of great stress it is a way of communicating with the Lord, and if it is sincere and dedicated to God, it will be regarded by him. (Matthew 6:18).

(Read the whole article here.)

In any event I was taught that there's no such thing as, say, a "juice fast": that a fast means just water, or else neither food nor water. It's about the discipline, not the loopholes; about the nourishment, not the chewing. I'm sure there are hungry people in the world who would be very happy to have all of that loophole juice right now.

It used to be the custom that all able-bodied Christians fasted from midnight of Maundy Thursday/Good Friday to the light of Easter Sunday. So if Sunrise Service was at 6 A.M., that's 54 hours between that midnight and the Sunrise Service. That way the first nourishment they took would be Communion. Nowadays some Protestant churches have a sunrise breakfast, with the service afterwards.

Either way, I don't know a lot of people who still practice the fast between Jesus' Last Supper and resurrection. I'm guessing there are more than we know about; they just don't talk about it very much.