You make a very good point. If you don't take the time to grieve and especially don't take the time to be angry at injustice, then you're robbing yourself of an important part of the healing process. Too many people have been hurt by Christians who say otherwise. It's damaging and dishonest to sweep hurt and sin under a rug. Best to deal with it over time, take it to Christ and let him sort it out.

I hope I can help EJ, but I'm afraid I'm not very good at explaining things...

You're right in saying that an apology should not be necessary... Though it is best, but it is something we're unable to control. It's also not right to make excuses for them, and if what they did broke the law then they should be (and God will see to it that they are) held accountable. But revenge is just as great a sin as any other... so getting back at someone out of spite is not an action that should be taken.

This is a problem I've often struggled with myself, and the thing I find that helps me best is prayer. I pray to God that he helps me to forgive them and to let go of the pain they caused me, and I pray to God that he teaches them to follow his path and learn about him, that if they haven't come to know Christ that they will. And I pray that God's will is done.

What I don't do is ask that they burn in Hell or that some harm befalls them... That is not forgiveness.

It's not an easy thing. Like the others have said already it takes time, especially if it hurts a lot, but overtime if you trust God it becomes easier.

It is interesting that if you read the Law, there are a lot instances where the Israelites were commanded to wait outside the camp for several days before they could re-enter. The one that stands out to me the most was after battle. The men could not rejoin the camp until seven days had passed. The purpose for this was for their body, mind, and spirit to rest and recover from the battle before taking out their fresh experiences on thier family and those near them.

The same can be said for getting hurt. That is a battle at least in a spiritual sense. It is not a bad idea to take time to process it and let God work on it. I agree that you can't just sweep it under the rug and not deal with it. It will come back and bite you. If you need to report it, be discerning on to whom. But sometimes you need to confide with a trusted friend about a hurt. And in some cases you need to report it to the civil authorities. God will tell you what you need to do when you ask him. It's not easy. But I do know that there is no trial or temptation that we will be given and not given a way out or means to overcome it. Unforgiveness, bitterness, ungodly anger, revenge are all things Satan will tempt us with. And no matter how deep the pain, God would not let us handle it if he did not already equip us to do so.

Plus, some people are so stubborn and sinful, they simply won't apologize. But I think we should still forgive them; for our own sakes, if nothing else. It's not healthy, physically, emotionally, or spiritually, to have anger inside you.

Fair point. Some offenders hurt others grievously in pride and spirit, but not injuriously, despite the physicality of what they do, such as in the two incidents you relate. There may be no proper redress in a place where many people think they can discriminate against people different from themselves in ancestry. Suing someone is expensive and may be futile or counter-productive. Plotting revenge can eat up one's soul and self-respect, plus two wrongs don't make a right. Life is too short to carry grudges. And there is also a strong likelihood that if an offence is not against someone personally, but against what they represent, that the offender will vanish out of one's life anyway.

I think it is important to separate the offender from the offence. Then, forgiving the person might be okay, but it also becomes a learning experience about what to do about such offences, what you agree with ethically and what attitudes one stands against.

In the cases you mention, I'd like to know what the laws of my district says about discrimination, what laws need changing, how other people might be affected similarly to myself, and the sorts of attitudes in society that really need to be changed. There are plenty of ways that even ordinary people can do this, including how they exercise their votes at elections, as citizens of their country, what laws they want put in place, what organisations and causes they want to join, and what organisations and causes they need to steer clear of.

How I see it, forgiveness is personal and deals with the past. It is to free the forgiver of chains that bind them to an offense when they expect compensation, which can interfere with their own growth. After forgiveness comes a time to grieve, and from there one can start moving forward.

The pursuit of consequences, whether legal (pressing charges) or personal (witholding trust) is interpersonal and looks toward the future. It is about setting boundaries and showing that those who cross your boundaries will suffer consequences. It really should be about edifying the offender, too, in the hope that he may learn not to do such things in the future. Obviously, offenders don't always learn, and forgiveness keeps you from being unnecessarily bound to the offender.

On that note, I do recommend the book Boundaries by Henry Cloud and John Townsend, as well as other books by the former. He talks much about forgiveness, how important it is, and what it is not.

waggawerewolf27 and stardf29, I learned a lot from these last two posts. Getting involved politically can be an empowering way to heal from an event and make the world a little bit safer. I liked in stardf29's post how clearly defined everything is.

"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly[a] with your God." Micah 6:8 NIV

[a] or prudently

I think that sometimes justice is needed and sometimes mercy is needed when a wrong has been committed. A book that's been helpful to me is What's So Amazing About Grace? by Phillip Yancey.

So, I noticed that there's been some talk about speaking in tongues, which reminds me of the general topic of spiritual gifts. And for that, here is an online test to see what your spiritual gifts might be. (And yes, speaking and interpreting tongues are both included in there; that probably won't come up in the results of anyone here, though )

My main spiritual gift seems to be Teaching, with a five-way tie for second among Faith, Helps, Word of Knowledge, Missionary, and Service. Of those five, I'd probably associate myself more with Faith and Word of Knowledge. Teaching as first is about right.

Note that spiritual gifts are an evolving thing and results can certainly change after time, usually with people receiving new gifts.

Umm... I'll just quote it:

Faith 12
Discernment 12
Service 12
Intercession 12
Miracle Working 11
Mercy 11
Exhortation 11
Word of Wisdom 10
Missionary 10
Healing 10
Giving 10
Helps 10
Teaching 9
Word of Knowledge 9
Celibacy 8
Words of Prophecy 8
Hospitality 8
Evangelism 8
Leadership 8
Apostleship 7
Pastor 7
Martyrdom 7
Administration 4
Gift of Tongues 0
Interpretation of Tongues 0

though some of the questions I was rather shakey on...and some words I don't even know what they mean... I think I agree with the top of the list for the most part though Especially the first two and the fourth. Granted such tests are never perfect... Only God knows precisely just what gifts we have and are destined to use, but so long as we remember that it is interesting to see the results

Great link. The quiz is long but the results interesting.

My top gift was Faith with a tie for second between Healing, Teaching, Giving, and Intercession. and then Mercy, Leadership, and Service.

I'd say that's about right for now. In the last year, I have been through several surgeries, graduating from college, a part-time job coming as an answer to prayer and now apparently graduate school, so faith has become very important to me with so many unknowns and new experiences.

On the topic of "giving", I've thinking about this quite a lot lately and I have decided to put this out there for the crowd in this thread. What is the best way to go about helping the poor, especially the homeless? How much is asked of us as Christians? By giving food/money to someone on the corner with a cardboard sign are we helping or enabling?

Most tests I've taken in the past list me as Teaching followed by Exhortation. Personally I don't see the teaching thing, but Exhortation fits me like a glove. This test seemed to focus heavily on the speaking (and subsequent translation) of tongues, which felt a bit heavy handed.

I decided to take this spiritual gifts test, even though it's probably not meant for people like me.

Leadership 9
Teaching 9
Hospitality 9
Helps 8
Administration 7
Service 7
Discernment 5
Word of Wisdom 5
Exhortation 4
Mercy 2
Celibacy 2
Missionary 2
Giving 2
Word of Knowledge 1
Gift of Tongues 0
Words of Prophecy 0
Pastor 0
Miracle Working 0
Martyrdom 0
Interpretation of Tongues 0
Intercession 0
Healing 0
Faith 0
Evangelism 0
Apostleship 0

The results are actually rather accurate. I have often looked at my teachers through grade school and admired their profession. Education is a field I would love to work in.

I took the test too, just out of curiosity. My top one was service, followed by hospitality and exhortation.

I was watching a Perry Stone interview recently and the man being interviewed said that, though for years he was of the opinion that tongues was not a necessary sign of a true believer, his recent studies, especially of John, have totally convinced him that there must be some type of outward sign LIKE tongues (from the context I feel he meant not necessarily tongues but equally outward) for a person to truly be saved. Any thoughts?

Here's my results from that test, some of which quite surprised me:

Teaching 12
Faith 11
Word of Knowledge 11
Celibacy 10
Martyrdom 10
Missionary 9
Helps 9
Service 9
Words of Prophecy 9
Evangelism 9
Word of Wisdom 8
Exhortation 8
Pastor 8
Intercession 7
Mercy 7
Giving 7
Apostleship 7
Discernment 6
Miracle Working 6
Hospitality 6
Healing 5
Leadership 4
Administration 2
Gift of Tongues 0
Interpretation of Tongues 0

This talk about spiritual gifts has been interesting. But here is a question, and ideas on how we can put these gifts to practical use? We know from the parable of the talents, that when someone doesn't use a talent God gives him/her, that person gets in real trouble and that talent is given to someone who will use it.

I haven't had the time to take the test, but I know I have gifts in spiritual discernment and teaching among many others. I didn't expect the teaching until about a year ago or two. That just showed up and I've demonstrated that I have a gift for it to others. Today and tomorrow, I'm going to put those two gifts to practical use. My parents and I are hosting a small mission team from Arkansas who are going into Juarez (yes in spite of the 3+ year drug war that has chased out nearly all American ministries) this week to encourage and support several Mexican based ministries.

As many of you can guess from my username, I am a fencer and a Christian. But the meaning of that username is much more than that. I use fencing as a tool to preach the Gospel. Today, I am going to a girl's refuge center (many teenagers who are mercifully pulled off the streets) and I am going to use several of the actions that I perform in the sport as a visual illustration of practical life lessons. One example is a move called a '1-2'. Unlike boxing, where the 1-2 is one hit followed by another, in fencing the 1-2 is designed to draw an instictive defense to one area when the real target is somewhere else. Properly executed, the 1-2 is one of the most useful and effective moves from the beginning level to the world championships. Satan uses this tactic frequently. He'll get us concerned about one area in our lives. Often an area we have been hurt in before. This is meant to draw our defensive instincts to protect ourselves in that area. But his intent is once we focus on that, he really is going after somewhere else that we have left open. And one of the very few ways you can defend against this action when properly executed is to know it is coming before it happens. I'll be teaching this and several other lessons today.

Then tomorrow, I'm going to a small children's home and I'll be using the sport in a skit that I do with a spiritual warfare theme and needless to say, a sword fight. Due to the make-up of the team, I need to tweak how I approach it than what I have done in the past, but I am listening to God on how to do that.

I'm really excited about this as I haven't had a chance to use my sport in ministry much lately due to lack of ministry going into Juarez due to the intense violence. This is going to be a really good practice for me and I am going to try to get both these on video because a lot of people want to see what I do with this.

God has given me a pretty large vision for a fencing ministry. This includes teaching practical life lessons through fencing actions, equipment, rules, and concepts; entertaining through skits, dramas, and stage combat; and teaching the sport from a Biblical perspective (as in a club setting). I am in the process of getting certified as a coach. I just passed the written examination part with flying colors. Next is attend a seminar, on which I am waiting for the date to be set, and then a practical examination where I will be observed doing it. I can do the practical at the seminar or later with my coach. God has something really big planned for this and I am taking it one step at a time, listening to God as he slowly reveals how it will look. This is really exciting to see what happens.

FencerforJesus, God bless you in your fencing ministry. That parable of the talents is disturbing to me. Being an introvert and prone to self-analysis and questioning, I never know if I'm doing enough or not. But, I think each person has a different journey and they have to work out how to use their gifts based on God's calling and the needs of their church family.