Well this thread seems somewhat quiet for now, so I guess now is as good a time as any to ask a question. I've been wondering about something for quite awhile; and since I just PM'd a friend about it, it got me thinking about it more.
Forgiveness. Forgiveness is one thing I've never really understood. I mean, I understand how important it is, and why we should do it. And I want to do it. I'm not one of those people who purposely holds onto grudges because they want to remain angry (I've seen people who do that).
The thing is, I'm not even sure what forgiveness is, exactly. Like, the definition. I mean, is it making yourself be not mad at someone anymore? Is it wiping it completely from your brain in an almost amnesia-style way? I don't even know. The people I know in real life can't define it either.
Whenever it's portrayed in movies, books, or paintings, I see lots of pictures of people hugging and crying with the inscription "forgiveness" under the picture. But that doesn't really tell me anything. At least, not when it comes to a real definition, and steps as to how to do it.
So far, the only way I've ever known what to do, when it comes to "how to forgive someone", is coming up with some excuse for the person I'm mad at. Which I'm pretty sure isn't the right way, and doesn't always work either; especially when the person really is to blame.
So, how do you go about forgiving someone? I'm sure there's no "magic ceremony" you do, where you throw some leaves in the sink, chant something, and come out of it with no more bitterness... But what do you do?
Plus, it's easier to forgive people if they're loved ones close to you, who you can sit down and talk about things, and work things out. Or at least, know something about them, so you can at least see them as human beings like yourself, imperfect like yourself. But what about people who aren't like that; people you don't get to know at all?
I'm afraid most of my anger is at the world in general. Or just vague figures of people from long ago who I didn't get to know, but who just left some negative mark. Like some kid who pushed me down at a park when I was 8. Or that full-grown man in the grocery store who spat in my face when I was 5, because he didn't like my skin color. Or my neighbors behind the fence who liked to burn the American flag, to show us they didn't like our country. Or the doctor who refused to treat me when I was very sick, because I wouldn't follow the teachings of Buddha. I never even learned the names of most of these people, and I certainly don't remember their faces. I just remember stuff they did, and the pain that went with it. They don't even seem like people; just blurry figures in memories. And I'm not really sure what to do with stuff like that. :/ I mean, if they seemed more like people, I could see them in a more personal way. I could see them like myself, because I'm an imperfect person just like they are. But as it is, they seem more like old shadows who want to hurt me, than human beings who just have sin in their lives.
So, since the people here seem to know their stuff pretty well, especially when it comes to the Bible, what do you say about the topic? How does the Bible define forgiveness, and what is the correct, Godly way of going about doing it: for forgiving people you know, and people you don't know?
~Riella
~ Riella
Whenever it's portrayed in movies, books, or paintings, I see lots of pictures of people hugging and crying with the inscription "forgiveness" under the picture. But that doesn't really tell me anything. At least, not when it comes to a real definition, and steps as to how to do it.
So far, the only way I've ever known what to do, when it comes to "how to forgive someone", is coming up with some excuse for the person I'm mad at. Which I'm pretty sure isn't the right way, and doesn't always work either; especially when the person really is to blame.
No, I can't see anything helpful in the picture of forgiveness you portray in the first paragraph in the bit of your post I quoted. I do realise that in the Apostle's creed and the Nicene creed we are bound to say at church services: 'I believe in the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body and the life everlasting...' And in the Lord's Prayer we recite, 'Forgive us our sins as we forgive others who sin against us.'
However, I do agree with you that it is a good topic to tackle for all our sakes. I've heard of grace being the core belief of Christianity, whereas I thought repentance and confessing sins might be just as important. What is the point of forgiving someone who doesn't repent of their sins? And having grovelled in utmost misery in repentance of our own sins and having begged forgiveness for them, how can we not forgive others for being just as foolish and and as sinful as we have been?
You mention some examples of people who have hurt you with their attitudes. But Jesus Christ said 'forgive them for they know not what they do'. And that is the crux of the problem. People do wrong things and they sometimes expect automatic forgiveness. Should they get such forgiveness when they have failed to recognise the wrongness of what they have done?
But sometime or other they just might. The bloke who spat at you might find himself one day remembering that he did something that was loathesome, horrible and nasty, and that he, or, worse still, his own children, would not have wanted to be targeted by such attitudes. But then once people do recognise their faults and repent of it, yes, once they have, they should be forgiven.
Take the example of the American flag burning you mention. I can understand how you feel, to have to tolerate someone exercising so hurtfully their 'freedom of speech'. We get those sorts of attitudes here as well. But when those sorts of people get into difficulties in the sorts of places they say they would prefer to live in, and in a few cases, from which they may have emigrated, guess which government those people will be appealing to, in order to fish them out of their difficulties?! Yes, the very government of the flag they burn. Even though it is on the other side of the planet, from where they are, in places not easily reached.
And take the example of parents who have not lived up to their children's expectations. I'd like to sympathise, but I can't afford to be self-righteous about other people's lousy parents when I can't guarantee my own children might not feel the same about me, for all the wrong things I have ever done, said or thought, even though I never meant to hurt them in any way. Or for what I might do, say or think in conflict with them in the future? You see, I can't guarantee that I, too, have not been a lousy parent myself, even occasionally, over such a long period of time, like much of my life.
There are other examples to consider I am sure. For myself, I am a strong believer in karma, perhaps another word for poetic justice. The Bible says: 'Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord'. I was brought up in a tradition of 'Do what you would be done by', and I was also mindful of 'Be done by as you did'.
As for the Doctor who wanted you to turn Buddhist before he would treat you, I think that he was bang out of order. It would be just as wrong for a doctor to refuse to treat a patient who did not endorse his Christian, Jewish or Muslim beliefs, when controversial medical ethics are not involved. On the contrary, I believe the medical profession has the onus to respect other people's beliefs and to be sensitive about them.
** REALLY hates it when he has a long post almost finished and the computer thinks you did the keyboard shorcut to go back to the previous page, losing EVERYTHING.
Rant over.
So forgiveness is a big issue and I have been blessed to get some insight from God about this without having to learn it the hard way. It came as I prepared to do a fencing presentation last August with a mission team going to a girl's rehab/refuge center in Juarez, Mexico. I used my fencing equipment to illustrate the Armor of God and then used three fencing actions to demonstrate practical life lessons.
The last of the actions I demonstrated is called an 'Inquartada'. It is a move used when an opponent performs a long charging 'fleche' attack (which looks like an arrow). With the inquartada, you extend your arm so your blade is aimed right at your opponent, and you step to the side, evading your opponent's blade and letting your opponent run right into your blade.
This is one way to visualize how forgiveness works. What your 'opponent' tried to do will miss and not affect you and your 'opponent' will have to answer to the 'Sword of the Spirit' which is the Word of God. But it goes much deeper than that.
We tend to understand forgiveness with the phrase 'forgive and forget'. We can't do that. Satan won't let us. It doesn't work that way. When we get hurt, we have a legitimate reason to get vengeance and to seek justice for that hurt. That's natural. But due to sin we often go about it the wrong way.
Here is something very important. When we refuse to forgive, we are telling God we want the responsibility for dealing with the offender and getting him/her to change. We often say we won't forgive until God changes that person. But when we do this, we are telling God that we don't trust him to do what needs to be done and we want to do it ourselves. And it only goes downhill from there. We see anger, hate, bitterness and is some cases even depression come as a result of that.
In Galatians, Pauls tells us "Do not be decieved. God is not mocked. A man will reap what he sows." Charles Stanley taught on this and said, using a farming analogy, "A man will reap what he sows, more than he sows, and later than he sows." Forgiveness is a very real application to this principle. When we don't forgive, we sow that and what we get is more than what we barganed for. But when we do forgive, the fruit also is more than we barganed for. When we don't forgive, we are sowing sin and praying for a crop failure. Doesn't work that way.
When we do forgive, we are not letting the offender get away with it. We are simply handing the responsibility for justice to God. And one of two things is going to happen: the offender will get saved or get his/her due justice. It may not happen right away. It takes pecan trees approximately 7 years or so to grow and mature enough to produce a crop. The seeds we plant takes time to water, to care for, to grow, and even then, some circumstances need to happen before fruit can begin to grow, let alone get ripe for harvest. We have to give God the time he needs to do what he wants to do. It's a long process dealing with us as we all know. We have understand God is doing the same thing with the offender. If the crop doesn't produce fruit, then God will deal with it accordingly. But it's his responsibility to make it happen, not ours.
Now how do we forgive? When I did my presentation, my sparing partner had no experience in fencing or any other kind of sword play. I gave him a 20 minute crash course on the lesson plan the night before and he was able to do the actions, because I showed him how. Same is true for forgiveness. We can do it because God has showed us how. How did God forgive you? I'm not just talking about sin in general on the cross, but also about something very specific. How has someone else forgiven you? Like with my sparing partner, his performance of the actions was far from perfect. It takes lots of practice to do them correctly. We won't be perfect but God knows the heart and will cover our lacking above and beyond.
One last thing though. Like in fencing and any other sport, you spend far more time in practice than you do in the game/tournament. You run drill after drill. But you don't drill until you get it. You drill until you are able to perform the action by instinct without thinking. And then you drill some more. Same thing with God teaching us lessons like on forgiveness. He won't teach us it until we get it and understand it. He will teach us until we do it by default and then he will continue drilling it so we don't forget it.
God is so good and he really does know what he is doing. Let us let God do what he does and not take control of it ourselves. This is just as much a faith issue as it is forgiveness. Do we trust God to deal with it? It's hard, but it's doable. I hope God spoke to you about this.
Be watching for the release of my spiritual warfare novel under a new title: "Call to Arms" by OakTara Publishing. A sequel (title TBD) will shortly follow.
Let us let God do what he does and not take control of it ourselves. This is just as much a faith issue as it is forgiveness. Do we trust God to deal with it? It's hard, but it's doable. I hope God spoke to you about this.
I don't try to get vengeance on people I'm angry with... It's never been a problem for me to leave that in God's hands. The problem I'm having is the depression and anger left inside me from the memory. I'm not trying to take my anger out on them. It's just a general feeling of anger and depression...
Now how do we forgive? When I did my presentation, my sparing partner had no experience in fencing or any other kind of sword play. I gave him a 20 minute crash course on the lesson plan the night before and he was able to do the actions, because I showed him how. Same is true for forgiveness. We can do it because God has showed us how. How did God forgive you? I'm not just talking about sin in general on the cross, but also about something very specific. How has someone else forgiven you?
I don't know... How did God forgive me? How did other people forgive me? That's what I don't understand, and is what I'm trying to figure out. How is it done?
~Riella
~ Riella
Ok, I asked those questions to get you to think. What happened when you did something wrong (like with your parents or someone you really trust) and they forgave you? If you don't know, you could try asking them. Ask God to make it clear what you do to forgive? I can only try to explain what I know by what's been done for me. But the process is often different for different people. So I'm not sure I can help you with specifics on this. But I will say that there is no one 'formula' per say on how to forgive. You can't put relationships into a fomula.
For me personally, partly because I have Asperger's Syndrome (a high functioning form of autism), I tend to be emotionally detached from this sort of thing. And because I tend to not emotionally hold on to things that are offensive (I'm usually more offended that a rule/law was broken rather than it was aimed at me.) it is much easier for me to let it go and forgive. As I am preparing to go into teaching, I am trying to think about ways I can help students that are very emotionally attached. So it's not easy for me to try to empathize with your plight. I'm trying but it's not easy.
As for your troubles with those people, when they come to mind, have you considered praying for them? I don't know if you've tried that or not but it was the first thing that came to mind. And speaking of prayer, have you just laid it all out before God? It's one thing to simply say, "God, please take care of this." It's something else to just tell him everything that's going on inside you. He already knows, but he wants us to tell him.
I don't know if that's much help to your situation but that's what I have right now.
Be watching for the release of my spiritual warfare novel under a new title: "Call to Arms" by OakTara Publishing. A sequel (title TBD) will shortly follow.
For what it's worth, Ithilwen, i think forgiveness more or less amounts to not holding something against someone.
When someone does something against us, the natural response is to treat them differently - whether it's just glare at them, use resentful words, or even do something that hurts them deliberately. I think forgiveness means we are not choosing to treat them that way.
It doesn't mean forgetting. If the offense was a serious one, it doesn't mean acting as if it never happened. It means not letting it continue to hold you - moving past it, giving the forgiven a chance to mend their relationship with you without having to worry about making up for their mistake.
I'm still figuring this out myself, and i can't think off-hand of any time that i really had to struggle to forgive someone for some terrible offense. I know forgiveness isn't automatic - C.S. Lewis said that we wind up having to forgive 70 times 7 for a single offense. But i'm also pretty sure that even if we aren't 100% certain of what forgiveness is or if we've forgiven someone, if we ask God for help and focus on treating others as we want to be treated, it will be taken care of.
Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it. - Rabbi Tarfon
On forgiveness...
My guidance counselor taught me these steps when I was in high school. When someone has done something that has hurt you and later you remember it, and feel angry, hurt, sad etc. about it, this is what you do:
1. First you think about what they did and acknowledge all the ways that it hurt you and how wrong it was. You might cry a little depending on how raw the wound is.
2. Then you think "I release them of any responsibility for recompense"
3. Then you pray for the strength to release the offense and for God to bless the person who has hurt you, if you can manage it. Otherwise just ask God to witness and acknowledge that you have released the person from any moral debt and to give you the strength to one day ask for their blessing.
Its a series of mental steps, and not an emotion that you'll ever automatically feel. It doesn't happen all in one day. When I've been hurt badly, I may over several months go through this many times over the same offense. But what's happened with me is that after going through it, I will find that the memory of what was done, hurts a little less each time, until I can think about it without tears. Then there comes a day when I remember the offense and think, "Well, yeah, that was bad, but I release them." and it takes 2 seconds and I go on with my day, free of bitterness.
I don't think that forgiveness necessarily means that you trust someone who has broken your trust. You just don't expect any sort of repayment for the offense. You can forgive regardless of whether an apology is ever forthcoming.
For example, someone (I'll call him 'Jay') I trusted once stole my car, got drunk and crashed it into someone else's gate and then abandoned it there. I got a phone call from the owners of the gate at around 6 am. I had gone to bed the night before with my car safely parked in my own driveway and no idea that my spare car key had been swiped. Was I shocked, hurt, embarrassed? Yes. Did it shake my sense of security? Yes. But I went through steps of forgiveness and didn't demand monetary or emotional recompense from Jay. I just went through the process. By God's grace, insurance covered the damages and my old car was worse for the wear but still usable. Even more miraculously, when I now think of Jay or the incident, I don't feel pain anymore. I wish Jay well. I can pray for God to bless him and mean it. However, when Jay asked to borrow my new car, I turned him down. He said, "But you're a christian, I apologized so you have to forgive." I said, "I have forgiven you. I wish you well. I can forgive you freely but trust is something that has to be earned."
When someone wrongs another person, there is no way to undo the wrong. A victim has 3 options. 1. Demand repayment. 2. Exact revenge 3. forgive. The problem with 1 or 2 is that they don't really free the victim from the wrong. I could have tried to get Jay to buy me a new car or pay for an auto-body shop to fix my car's exterior. I could have damaged some of his property out of spite.
But those options would not take away those harrowing moments after that phone call, when I looked out the window and saw my car missing from the driveway. It wouldn't restore my sense of security. Only God can heal and forgiveness is the path towards letting God heal me. And only God has given me the strength to treat Jay with kindness.
I think the pictures of people hugging is more showing that forgiveness is necessary for human relationships. People who have known each other for years and can still embrace are people who have forgiven each other probably many times. Unforgiveness is fodder for Shakespearian tragedies and books like The Count of Monte Cristo. But it is an empty way to live your life.
"Reason is the natural order of truth; but imagination is the organ of meaning." -C.S. Lewis
Excellent posts, Fencer, Arwenel and Conina!
The only thing I can add is that it's very helpful to pray for your oppressors.
Pray for them.
Pray for them.
Pray for them.
And soon you will come to see them as Jesus sees them.
This is Forgiveness.
Currently watching:
Doctor Who - Season 11
2. Then you think "I release them of any responsibility for recompense"
No, sorry, I cannot accept that. Not at all. It is against the law if there is a felony involved, and when someone has done something wrong it should at least be pointed out to them, if possible. I agree that sometimes a desirable outcome isn't possible, and I'd hate to risk someone's safety. But that doesn't let us out of trying. Are you going to excuse everyone who speeds, keeps their library books overdue, or who spits in your face or burns the flag because they really need to take a hard look at themselves and their so-called values?
If you keep library books grossly overdue, do you pass it off as nothing much, and hope the librarian will excuse you automatically? Not on my watch. I'd be doing the wrong thing by my employers for one thing. And it doesn't help all the other people who might want to use those books whilst you monopolised them. This is public money - shouldn't I levy fines just the same? Without fear or favour?
Yes, there has to be recompense or restitution or whatever word you like to use if you are really repentant and sorry for a misdemeanour. In VDT, Eustace put the final sword on Aslan's table, plus tried to be less of a nuisance, which I thought fair enough.
In the same vein, most people do the right thing when it is pointed out to them. They pay up when they know they haven't done the right thing, whether it is a library fine or a speeding fine. And yes, as we say in Oz, if you do the crime you should also be prepared to do the time. No matter how high and mighty you might consider yourself.
On Feb 11th 2008 our Prime Minister made an official apology to the Aborigines for the way they have been treated over the two centuries since 1788, when Australia was first settled. This was not a light thing. It was something for our national self-respect, and for our future welfare as a nation. We cannot go on being mean to our fellow citizens if we truly believe in a fair go. I hope the Aborigines as a group find it in their hearts to forgive the oppression meted out to them during that time so that we can all get along with the future.
Yes, there should be forgiveness, as God commanded. I wouldn't contradict that for a moment. But I have difficulties with the notion that it should be handed out like lollies at a party, regardless of how despicably people have behaved. Shouldn't at least a simple apology be in order first? And how do we separate those who didn't really mean it, and would be horrified by the implications, from those who couldn't have cared less how anyone thought of their behaviour?
Sorry, I don't think that's what she meant, but I can see how you came to that conclusion. If that's what Conina meant by forgiveness, I'll have to agree with you, it's not right (because forgiveness costs something but doesn't negate the fact that someone was wronged and that something needs to be done to rectify that).
Currently watching:
Doctor Who - Season 11
Our God is a just God and sin MUST be dealt with. God forgave us from our sin but the punishment for sin still had to be met. He paid the price for it himself. This is the ultimate form of forgiveness. God almighty who is absolutely perfect without a single blemish took the punishment he did not deserve.
But there is something important here. Paul describes there there are willing sins (talking to believers) that there is no forgiveness. When we know it's a sin and we do it anyway, God will not be mocked and we will reap the consequences. It doesn't affect our standing with Christ, but we will get what we sowed in that case.
Forgiveness definately does not release the consequences of a wrongdoing. However, I will say that you can release someone of the consequences by taking them upon yourself. Conina did that in the case of the stolen and wrecked car. "Jay" didn't pay for his crime. Conina did. That is forgiveness. But there are cases where you can still forgive and the offender still must pay the price. I've heard stories of a member of a family getting kidnapped or murdered and the family/member/both forgave the offender. They didn't take the punishment for the crime, but they released the need for restitution upon themselves. The criminal still had to pay the price for the crime in part because his crime was not just against the family but against the community and the law. He has to deal with that and the justice department will decide if forgiveness will happen in that regard or not. It gets complicated pretty fast, but forgiveness is such a critical thing for believers to learn to do. Otherwise we will become bitter and unusable by God because there is not a single person we have a relationship with in which we have not had a need to forgive at some point.
Be watching for the release of my spiritual warfare novel under a new title: "Call to Arms" by OakTara Publishing. A sequel (title TBD) will shortly follow.
...Otherwise we will become bitter and unusable by God because there is not a single person we have a relationship with in which we have not had a need to forgive at some point.
I agree with that whole last paragraph and those last few lines were beautiful. Thanks Fencer.
I believe that Christians have duel citizenship operating in a world of sin and laws and also in the Kingdom of Heaven which operates under grace (giving a shirt to the person who stole your jacket). Its hard to always know what to do in any given situation. By laws of the land, people are fined for traffic offenses and imprisoned for worse crimes. But grace calls us to turn the other cheek (Matt. 5:39) So its hard to always navigate. I've often had to ask God for guidance on whether its a time to turn the other cheek or not. In the case with my stole car, I think I did a little of both.
I think the laws of the land should be obeyed. And Wagga as a librarian, you are in a position to enforce certain laws about the books and for a certain order in society to be maintained, I believe its ethical behavior on your part to enforce them. The Bible tells us to follow laws of the world (Giving Caesar the things that are Caesar's Mark 12:17) At my work this last year with elementary kids, I held them accountable to certain behaviors and they faced consequences when they broke rules and had no qualms about enforcing the rules for the school I worked for.
In the case with the car, I prayed about it and my actions in not pressing charges, getting the insurance to cover the person' gate, and driving an uglier car were what I felt God nudging me to do (my understanding may have been imperfect). I did point out to Jay that what he had done was illegal and that I no longer trusted him. When he asked me how to gain back my trust, I told him to start taking care of himself and his own things as the first step. Jay is a very broken and hurting person who is even more destructive towards himself than he is to others. I pray for him almost every day. So he did face some consequences even from me. Releasing him from responsibility was more of an internal mental process between myself and God, that ultimately healed me from bitterness and restored my sense of security and ability to fall asleep at night.
What I'm talking about is releasing the inner turmoil and the feeling that something is owed to me after a wrong has been done. For example, even if "Jay" were to buy me a new car every year for the rest of my life, it would not undo what was done. Not really, the fact that he did that would still remain and could burn between us every time I thought about it. I could remain bitter about it, and still feel unsafe in my own home etc.
For another example, the man that spit in Ithilwen's face. It was wrong that he did that. It was disgusting and disrespectful and unconscionable that an adult male would do that to a little girl. He made it so that forevermore, Ithilwen lives in a world where someone spit in her face. She has options. She could get revenge. She could devote her time and resources to finding him and then spit in his face and maybe kick him in the shins for good measure. She could could demand recompense, either press charges for assault or attempt to sue him.
My argument is that both revenge and repayment are ultimately empty and will not heal her from the wrong that was done to her. Even if she spit back in his face or if she sued and won a million dollars, it doesn't make her live in a world where someone didn't spit on her face. That is done and can not ever be changed. But if she forgives him and releases him, it changes her. She has given the offense to God. She has found herself freed from the status as victim, her bitterness is gone and God will heal her.
"Reason is the natural order of truth; but imagination is the organ of meaning." -C.S. Lewis
Thank-you for your response and thoughts on my post, Wagga. Very interesting points!
And this was three or so pages back, but thanks for your answers to my questions on women preaching/speaking, Fencer! The post answered my questions excellently and helps alot.
RL Sibling: CSLewisNarnia
Thanks everyone for the responses.
And thank you very much, Conina, for the step-by-step guide. I'm the kind of person who thinks in ways of step-by-step guides; so that was extremely helpful.
I agree that sometimes we should report offences, and sometimes let it go, depending on the situation. We must also do it for the right reason. Sometimes, people learn more if we forgive them without reporting, because our kindness convicts them. Other times, they have to get in trouble legally in order to learn from it at all. Prayer is the best way to get guidance in discerning that, as Conina did.
I think it's best that the people who offend someone should apologize. But I don't think they have to apologize in order for us to forgive them. If that were the case, there are some people we could never forgive. What about the people who die before they apologize? Or what if it was a stranger on the street, or in a store? That guy in the grocery store who spat in my face is someone I probably will never see again. I don't know his name, I don't remember his face. He can never come and apologize to me, even if he wanted to.
Plus, some people are so stubborn and sinful, they simply won't apologize. But I think we should still forgive them; for our own sakes, if nothing else. It's not healthy, physically, emotionally, or spiritually, to have anger inside you.
~Riella
~ Riella
I think, Riella, there are two steps: 1. Forgiveness 2. Reconciliation.
When people sometimes say that you must forgive, they miss a huge gap which is grieving (if the offense was serious) and being angry at injustice (which I believe is a God-given trait to hate injustice). It definitely is not good to hold a grudge, but you must deal with your anger and hurt. Forgivness is on the way to that, but forgiveness is not always the immediate step.
Sometimes reconciliation can not be achieved, because it would just be impossible, and that's fine. You can forgive someone for stepping on your toes, but you can't reconcile with someone who keeps stepping on your toes.
I believe, yes, you can forgive someone before they apologize to you, you decide not to hold it against them, but if the can, it's important for an offender to apologize and not abuse forgiveness.
RL Sibling: CSLewisNarnia