Is hell really a lake of fire, or is it just an existance - maybe a psuedo earth, or something - lacking God or any of his attributes (love, mercy, etc...)? Just wondering what you all would think.

It seems to me that that idea would make a more reasonable, a more just punishment.

I've wondered the same thing myself. My position is that humans deserve neither eternal happiness nor eternal punishment (just the fact that it's eternal is spine-tingling if you think about it). However, I've been told many times that my view that humans don't deserve hell is incorrect, and unchristian.

I've had a lot of faith struggles coping with the default that we're going to hell. Such a high-risk, high-reward universe where the stakes are literally infinite is quite a frightening concept to me. You either get happiness beyond your wildest dreams, or you recieve a fate so horrible it would have been better you if you had simply not existed.

Now, perhaps I'm just scared because I'm a Catholic, as I don't believe that I am definitely going to heaven yet. I have a baptist friend who is so satisfied and happy that he knows he is going to heaven, no matter what. But my mind simply can't reconcile such a concept. I believe that God has given us free will, so that we still have the free will to be corrupted later in our lives even if we have accepted Jesus at the current moment.

But to go back to your question about hell - I really don't know. I can speculate, but the bible is incredibly vague when it comes to describing hell and it doesn't give me much to work with. A great abyss with wailing and grinding of teeth is about all I can come up with right now.

Don't have time to read everything right now, so I skipped the last page and a half, but here's something.

Should we hate anyone?

Wondered what everyone's thoughts were on these two passages, the first especially compared to the last:

Psalm 139:20-22
20 For they speak against You wickedly;
Your enemies take Your name in vain.
21 Do I not hate them, O LORD, who hate You?
And do I not loathe those who rise up against You?
22 I hate them with perfect hatred;
I count them my enemies.

Matthew 5:43-45
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

Have any of you read a very new translation called "Word on the Streets"? It is a humorous read, I believe made to appeal to modern inner-city people. Far, far from more direct translations, I'm not even sure I would consider it a Bible.

Wondered what everyone's thoughts were on these two passages, the first especially compared to the last:

Psalm 139:20-22
20 For they speak against You wickedly;
Your enemies take Your name in vain.
21 Do I not hate them, O LORD, who hate You?
And do I not loathe those who rise up against You?
22 I hate them with perfect hatred;
I count them my enemies.

Matthew 5:43-45
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

We well know that Psalms was in the Old Testament (or Old Covenant), and when Jesus came to earth in the New Testament (or New Covenant) he said: Matthew 5:43-45.
43
“You have heard that it was said..."
Where was it said? In the Old Testament
"...You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy."
That was the way people thought in the Old Testament thous Psalm 139:20-22

But in the New Testament Jesus changes that and says what we need to do now, for the New has come:
44 "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 "that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust."

We are still to hate evil for sure! But I don't think the actual person.

Hope my opinion has helped in some way

--Benjamin

Actually, I asked my brother about those passages, and he gave an interesting and I think good reply. He said, "Love isn't some romantic thing like we think of it now days, Love is really the 'fulfillment of the law'. Therefore, we are showing love to our enemies when we give them what they deserve"
And, in some cases, that could mean capital punishment. I think it makes sense.

I agree with it not being a romantic thing but the fulfillment of the law as Paul says.

I also agree that sometimes and maybe most of the time the loving thing to do is give them what they deserve but of in a loving manner. But of course there is mercy, which God gave us, or else where would we be if He just gave us justice?

--Benjamin

for starters: for my Bible version I use the Geneva Bible. It was written before the KJV and is closer to the original Greek, I believe. I also like NIV and NKJV though .

Anyways, I had an interesting discussion with one of my church leaders. It was mostly speculatory, though he had some verses to back up the idea, but here it was: Is hell really a lake of fire, or is it just an existance - maybe a psuedo earth, or something - lacking God or any of his attributes (love, mercy, etc...)? Just wondering what you all would think.

It seems to me that that idea would make a more reasonable, a more just punishment.

that's an interesting idea but I think Hell is actually a Lake of Fire. I take the Bible literally so when it says lake of fire, that's what's there. But I also believe Hell is completely lacking of God and his attributes.

I've wondered the same thing myself. My position is that humans deserve neither eternal happiness nor eternal punishment (just the fact that it's eternal is spine-tingling if you think about it). However, I've been told many times that my view that humans don't deserve hell is incorrect, and unchristian.

why do you think humans don't deserve eternal punishment? Anyone who has not reached God's standard deserves Hell. No humans deserve eternal happines, but God chooses some people to bestow that gift on.

I believe that God has given us free will, so that we still have the free will to be corrupted later in our lives even if we have accepted Jesus at the current moment.

I don't believe that we can change our minds like that. Anyone who is truly a Christian, would not turn from God. Once you have experienced the glorious wonders of heaven, how could you reject it? Not to mention, John writes in 1 John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us." Also, since I'm a Calvinist, I believe God chooses who is saved. So it's not a matter of changing our minds, it's what God decides.

Have any of you read a very new translation called "Word on the Streets"? It is a humorous read, I believe made to appeal to modern inner-city people. Far, far from more direct translations, I'm not even sure I would consider it a Bible.

just looked up a passage and that is one of the most hideous things I've read. The only thing that redeemed it at all was that it's not claimed to be an actual translation but a paraphrase. But it's still horrendous. I've never even read a children's book that has that horrible writing .

(Forget who said this) "]Should we hate anyone?

I agree with Ben

We are still to hate evil for sure! But I don't think the actual person.

but I don't agree that

But in the New Testament Jesus changes that and says what we need to do now, for the New has come:

I don't believe Jesus changed that. The Bible is the same, new and old. If the old is disregarded and changed by Jesus, why would anyone have cause to believe in the new? And also "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness," (1 Timothy 3:16). If all scripture is inspired by God and useful for all those things, how can parts of the old be wrong and no longer our standards and laws? I know that we are no longer bound to Jewish law but just because disobedient children are no longer stoned doesn't mean we are to be disobedient. So if the Psalms say we shoud hate God's enemies, we should. But I don't think David is saying we should hate actual people, but the evil in them, like you said. Sorry if this a bit harsh, but I believe the entire Bible is true and unchanged .

Actually, I asked my brother about those passages, and he gave an interesting and I think good reply. He said, "Love isn't some romantic thing like we think of it now days, Love is really the 'fulfillment of the law'. Therefore, we are showing love to our enemies when we give them what they deserve"
And, in some cases, that could mean capital punishment. I think it makes sense.

very good reply. And very true.

It's actually rather sad, how our culture has distorted the meaning of love. I was discussing it with one of my friends today. It's horrible how you can't say you love people anymore without them thinking you mean it romantically. I love all my guys friends, but like brothers, I don't have a crush on a single one of them. But if I said I loved them, even though scripture tells us to love each other and even to greet each other with a holy kiss, everyone would assume that it wasn't a sibling-like love.

And also about loving your enemies- love is a way of life, not a feeling. When we love someone, we are kind and patient with them. We do what's best for them. Just because you love someone doesn't mean you like them, or their actions.

But of course there is mercy, which God gave us, or else where would we be if He just gave us justice?

another good point, but we must know when is the right time for mercy. One of my annoyances with our government is that I don't believe the death sentence is given out nearly enough, but I don't know if that discussion is appropriate for this forum. I know we're not supposed to get in to politics, so I don't know if that counts...

God is present everywhere, so he would also be in Hell but those there wouldn't be able to feel his love; only his unabashed wrath at sin and unredeemed sinners.

Also, while I believe in loving justice and mercy, what right do we have to take another's life? Only God has that right. Otherwise you're going to run the risks of having any complete nutter justify their actions by saying 'God told them to do it'. Don't we already have enough examples of people interpreting the Bible incorrectly and using it to gain power, or at the very least, push their preference in something? I think that if you're a Christian and you view life as sacred, all life should be considered sacred. If you're pro-life that should be in all respects, not just when it concerns unborn babies.

Exactly, W4J. Spoken like a Christian gentleman and a true blue Aussie. I agree absolutely and couldn't have put it any better.

I'm not sure about the lake of fire, and its Biblical veracity, though any amount of volcanic craters might do just as well. But I strongly suspect that the worst thing of all is to die alone, with a bad conscience, with no hope of love or forgiveness. It only takes a few minutes to die, to stop breathing, for one's heart to stop beating, and to be brain dead. Such a minute of mental agony might well drag on in infinity. Such is Hell, in my opinion.

Having said that, there are some humans who have existed on this world stage who I really hope went to Hell. Think of Hitler, Stalin and the rest. Is this really so wrong?

why do you think humans don't deserve eternal punishment? Anyone who has not reached God's standard deserves Hell. No humans deserve eternal happines, but God chooses people to bestow that gift on.

Because eternal is a very strong word. We tend to throw it around a lot, but if you think about it for a long time, eternal is an incredibly deep concept that infinitely magnifies anything affected by it.

In hell, you would have to spend the entire length of your lifetime being punished. Then, for every one of the grains of sand on a beach, you would have to spend a lifetime being punished. It would take you thousands of years just to be punished for a thimbleful of sand. But you must be punished for a lifetime for every grain of sand on the beach, so you spend billions and trillions and quadrillions and quintillions of years being punished. But it doesn't stop there. After you have been punished for every grain of sand on that beach, you will be punished for a googol amount of years. (Googol is 1, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000 years.) Then, you would have to be punished for a GOOGOLPLEX amount of years. (Googolplex is a number so large there is not enough room in the universe to write it down. It is 1 followed by a googol zeroes.) But your punishment is so great, so vast, so eternal, that it has barely started. You will now be punished a googolplex amount of years for every grain of sand on a beach. Then you will be punished for a googolplex multiplied by a googolplex amount of years. Then you would be punished for a googolplex multiplied by a googolplex a googolplex times amount of years. That number would be so large it would be positively unfathomable. And yet, after all those years of punishment, you would have just as many years of punishment ahead of you as when you started, because your punishment is ETERNAL. IT NEVER ENDS. EVER. EVER. EVER. Any sort of punishment becomes infinitely horrible when carried out for eternity.

Now, this sort of punishment might be acceptable to people like Hitler, Stalin, etc. But what about the lukewarm Christians? The ones who went to church occasionally, and didn't really do anything terribly bad in their life, but didn't read the bible that much and didn't really believe in Jesus or ultimately care. Do they deserve the same punishment as Hitler?

Skandar Keynes is an atheist, and one of his relatives made a feature film about Charles Darwin. Will they get sent to the same place as Saddam Hussein?

Thomas Edison and Marie Curie were remarkable scientists who did many wonderful things. They also rejected God and chose to be atheists. Do they deserve the same fate as Stalin, who was directly responsible for more human deaths then anyone in human history?

I'm going to anticipate that you will say yes, because everybody is born with sin and deserves to go to hell. Now, if that were the only option, this universe would be insanely cruel, but fortunately, as you mentioned, there is a way to escape hell.

You accept Jesus Christ!

Except...what about the people who have never heard about Jesus Christ?

All those poor Native Americans, living in the Americas for thousands of years...were they all doomed to go to hell? Did they really have no choice?

Now, maybe if they lived good lives, they would go to heaven, but Jesus said he is the only way to truth and life. If all they had to do was live a good life, then what Jesus said would be wrong.

So...did they have no choice? Would it have been better for them all to have never been born? Is the world that God created just insanely cruel to the people who never heard about Jesus, and insanely rewarding of people who were privileged enough to hear about him and accept him?

Minatour, you're not the only one who has those questions. The Bible addresses them. I asked those questions too, & I think just about everyone has. I don't know what you believe, but what I'm gonna say is exactly what the Bible says.

EDIT: If you don't any of this just read the stuff in bold!

The Bible says that whoever breaks the 10 commandments should go to hell. Well, have you ever broken one? Have you ever lied? What does that make you? A liar. Have you ever stolen anything? Even if it was something really small. Like a stick of gum from your moms purse? What does that make you? A thief. Have you ever hated anyone? The Bible says that when you hate someone without cause that makes you a murderer. Have you ever disrespected your parents? Wanted something someone else had or were jealous? If you say yes to those & a few more, you should go to hell!

Seems pretty awful doesn't it. Why would God do that? I mean, were not that bad! Not like Hitler, or those other people. So, why should people who refuse God go into eternal torment?

Now, I know how bad I am. I know myself, my thoughts, my actions, intentions, etc. I know that I am a horrid & wretched sinner! I have got to see how terrible I am to see what God did for me. If I didn't think I was that bad, why would I care if someone died for me?

Lets say one day you get a letter in the mail that's a ticket for $5,000. (I have no idea if that would be the charge, but whatever! ) It's from the police in your town, & you go down to the station to see what's going on. They say that you were speeding through town. And that you should pay $5,000. Then a friend of yours says "Hey, this guy just paid your fine! I don't why but he did!" "What? Why would he do that, I think this fine was a mistake. He shouldn't have done that, I'll probably get this cleared up." "Well, I don't know, but he did." Then you talk to the police & they say that you were speeding through town while there was a convention for blind elderly people going on where you sped through. And you accidently killed 5 people, & injured 80 people. Then you realize what you did, & you know why that fine was so ridiculously huge! And you also are more grateful that some guy paid it for you.

That's why it's so important that we see who we are as we are. God is a just God, & whether you believe he is or isn't doesn't change that fact. The Bible clearly says in Romans "The wages of sin is death". DEATH!? Good grief that's horrible! Really? But like I said, I know how terrible I am. I know I deserve death. To God, amount of sin or kind of sin doesn't matter. God sees all sin as equal. Sin is sin because it's not perfect. "But the gift of God is eternal life!"

How dumb would it be if you refused that guy to pay the $5,000 fine! Can you even afford that? Why not just except the gift? It's a GIFT! Like Christmas! Who refuses presents at Christmas or Birthdays? That's just dumb. So, why do people refuse to accept that Jesus died for them?

There's a lot of reasons. The life of a Christian isn't exactly a picnic. People DIE brutal deaths for what they believe! Not many people feel like signing up for pain! Jesus said that in this life you WILL have trials! It IS hard to trust God, not impossible, but difficult. Which is why straight is the way & narrow is the gate that leads to Heaven! So, why are people still Christians after 6,000 years? God's love. His unfailing love.

Now, about your questions, I can't answer them. Or at least not all of them. You brought up the fact that some people might not get to hear about Jesus. Well, I have no idea. I know that nearly everyone has heard about Jesus. But what I have to do is trust God that he is perfectly just. He won't condemn anyone unjustly. I can't understand many things. But I'll put aside my trivial & useless questions & focus on one thing: His love. It's the one thing that never fails. It's the one thing that saved me (& I was literally saved, not "oh, grew up in a Christian home, & so therefore I guess I'm a Christian too".) I trust God with my future! I trust him with my life! That's crazy! Love is crazy!

If you look outside your window, & you see grass, a tree or two, a sky, a sun, a bird, a world of beauty, you're looking at what God has made. Do you know how to make grass grow? Do you know how to make a tree? What about an eyeball? DNA? Your heart, your soul, your mind? God does. Why ask the guy who holds the beating of your heart why he does what he does?

Romans says:

"Oh, how great are God's riches & wisdom & knowledge! How impossible it is for us to understand his decisions & his ways!"

Now, here's something REALLY weird!!

"For God said to Moses:

'I will show mercy to anyone I choose,
& I will show compassion to anyone I choose.'

So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose nor work for it. For the scriptures say that God told Pharaoh,

No, don't say that! Who are you, a mere human being to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, 'Why have you made me like this?' When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn't he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration, & another to throw garbage into? In the same way even though Go has the right to show his anger & his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction. He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory."

I suggest that if you have a Bible you read Romans. It's 16 chapters long, & it's going to give you insight on God & life. I hope what I said made sense! Sorry I rambled a bit. If you read the whole thing, thanks! I know that God has a plan for your life, & that he loves you! God bless!

God's Law is written on the hearts of every person he created. Not all respond to him. They can outright reject his Truth or just be blind to it and need to be made aware of who Christ is and their need for Him. God gives us the Holy Spirit to provide us with the faith to love Him and respond to Him. We can't do it on our own. We can't do anything on our own. Actually, we can - make a huge mess of our lives. But we can't do anything to redeem ourselves. That's Christ's role.

Warrior 4 Jesus.
I believe the verse you are looking for about The Holy Spirit effecting people wh o are not exposed to the Gospel is in Romans 2 or 3.
Not having my Bible on hand, it ropughly says that when someone heeds the Spirit they are righteuos. Not saying that they are needing to give themselves to Christ should a missionary come walking out of the jungle with the truth. But I think that this person would be more open simply because they are already listening to the Spirit anyway.
As for Scandar, Edison, and Curie. Do they deserve the same as Hitler, and Stalin? I believe this has been answered already. So let me ask this.
What would our reaction be if we were to find out that these people gave their lives to Christ just prior to their deaths?
History has many stories of monsters who gave up their sinful lives to live for Christ. Just think of Saul/Paul, who addmittedly sent Christians to their deaths.

Unfortunately I can think of others who likewise sent Christians, Jews, Moors and many others to their deaths, unjustly, even if it was in the name of Christ. One such name was Torquemada, the Chief Inquisitor of the Spanish Inquisition. Those were also the days of witch burnings and auto da fetes. Those were the days of superstition and persecution of many who were merely trying to scrape a living or who in some cases were deranged or otherwise ill, because of the struggle. Or because those who died either dared to disagree with the powers that be or were suspected of doing so.

There wasn't an awful lot to choose between some fiery-eyed fanatic like Torquemada, and the Nazi thugs and fanatics who put into operation Hitler's plans, or those who carried out Stalin's orders. Why should the likes of Torquemada, a Hitler predecessor, avoid Hell, because he said he believed in Christ, and not people like Marie Curie or Edison who worked for the world's betterment?

“You have heard that it was said..."
Where was it said? In the Old Testament
"...You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy."
That was the way people thought in the Old Testament thous Psalm 139:20-22

But in the New Testament Jesus changes that and says what we need to do now, for the New has come:

Benjamin, though I'm sure you didn't mean to be this way, this is incorrect. If you think harder about it I'm sure you'll see what I mean. Was the Psalmist wrong to think such thoughts? Was Jesus saying the Law had previously said that "you shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy"? If so, where is that passage of the Law? And if God did give that commandment, is Jesus saying God was wrong?

Many people wrongly conclude that Jesus' "new way" just overrules the Law. Not so. Christians who downplay the Law, and its real and current role in the world, are at risk of trying to be more "spiritual" than Jesus.

1. Jesus doesn’t just release people from the Law’s burden. He increases it, by reminding us that true violations are in our hearts, not in our deeds! Only He Himself can remove its burden.

2. Jesus does not oppose the Law. He opposes false views of it. He decries the often-willing ignorance of some people, in particular religious hypocrites. Such people refuse to see that the Law pointed to Him as the One Who relieves its burden for those who repent and believe Him.

3. And Jesus did not come to overthrow the unfair, too-hard Law. He came to fulfill it.

1. Jesus fulfills, not abolishes, the Law.

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.” [Matthew 5]

Lest anyone think Jesus came to offer anything different from the Law, He directly denied it. “I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them,” He said. I wonder: if I had been Jesus (scary thought), and I had wanted to tell people for sure that the true Law was not dead and gone or unnecessary for anyone in the present day, how would I have communicated this more clearly?

If Jesus actually did abolish the effects of the Law, here He was lying or obscuring the truth.

3. We should not downplay the Law.
“Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven”

These seem like very strong words: those who try to downplay the Law and its truths aren’t just misguided, naïve or doctrinally wrong, but they “will be called least in the kingdom of heaven.”

That just makes me want to wipe my brow and pray I won’t be too cavalier about the Law!

God’s standards are just as holy today as they were back then. Jesus hasn’t lowered the standard; here, He has just made it higher and more strict than ever. If He hadn’t made it clear here and elsewhere that He Himself was the fulfillment of that standard, and died and rose again to prove it, people might still be calling Him a “legalist” today.

That comes from a series I wrote for YeHaveHeard.com called God's Law and Jesus' love. Would you consider reading that, so you can help Christians not imply that God's Law is the bad stuff, and now we have "a new way" that makes the Law no longer important?

When Jesus said "you have heard that it was said," he is not quoting Scripture. Whenever He does quote Scripture, He is much clearer about it. Instead, He is quoting a popular phrase of the day -- a "law" that people may have made up, based on the real Law. And He says that His way is higher than that of the made-up Law. Read Mark 7, and you'll see that He does the same thing with the Pharisees. He does not offer "a new way" that is less harsh than the Law. He makes it clear that God's standard is still the actual Law and the hearts of people. Otherwise, why in the world would people need His mercy and His death on the cross? People may believe (horribly!) that "God's love" means they don't need to repent of their sins and believe Jesus alone is the way they can be saved.

We are still to hate evil for sure! But I don't think the actual person.

God does hate the actual person. "Love the sinner, hate the sin" may apply to us, but not to God. Please read my post from Aug. 1, especially my quote from author Randy Alcorn.

Does that mean we should hate sinners too? No. In Romans 13 we see Paul reminding Christians not to take vengeance, and he gives that caution not because God doesn't hate sinners or because He loves all people the same, but because it is God's job, not ours, to enforce justice. And He even does this on Earth now through human authorities.

But Christians should feel disgust at sin against God, and not try to skip past it. However, that should lead not to hatred of others, but humility. God saved us from the same thing. And yes, without Him we do deserve Hell. Countless Scriptures affirm this. Our own sins prove it more.

Meanwhile, Minotaur, please read the responses from Warrior, Glenstorm and ThePendragon about the absolute righteousness about how God has decided to run the universe He made. For now, might I suggest you forget about Catholics, Baptists, or your own feelings on the matter (we can come back to those, perhaps!) and instead try to focus on what Scripture says. It gives us God's perspective on the matters of justice and holiness. God is love, but God is also holy. Whether to send someone to Hell is not based on the distance between a "lukewarm Christian" and Saddam Hussein, but on the distance between either of those and Himself.

As ThePendragon pointed out, consider the Ten Commandments -- just those ten! -- and ask yourself whether you have kept all of them, always, all your life. This is just a simple standard: ten little rules. Have you broken any one of them, even once? If so, then you are guilty of breaking them all (James 2:10).

Up the ante: read the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus did not make things any easier. He actually made them more difficult! For most of us, it's easy not to kill someone. But God looks at the heart -- and that doesn't help us! If we even have a smidgen of hatred against someone, the same kind of hatred that when acted out to its extreme results in murder, we "will be liable to the hell of fire." (Matthew 5: 21-22.)

Up the ante even more: Romans 14:23.

For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

Whatever does not proceed from faith is sin. That's a lot of stuff.

Can I honestly say that everything I do is from faith in God, the true God, and that in all I'm doing I hope to glorify Him, please Him, honor Him?

If not, then I am a sinner -- as bad as any dictator or killer. And so are you.

Minotaur, God will not seem nearly so amazing to us, and our love for Him and desire to serve Him will never be truly heartfelt and real, until we see exactly as He wants us to see: our sins, disgusting in His sight, and Himself, all the more glorious and amazing for having died to save His people. We can't get to the Good News without also talking about the bad news. And remember again: the standard is not someone else here on Earth (I'm not as bad as XYZ), but Himself.

(Edited here and there to add other clarifications or expansions on points.)