Demons want to be in one of two places: behind the scenes where nobody knows they are there, or the center of attention. MD, if you want to know if demons are real, they will happily oblige and what I've described earlier is just part of what can happen. Believe in demons doesn't make you also a believer in God. Got quite a few people in witchcraft that fit this bill.

I know you though that doing the graveyard thing was fun. I'll readily agree. Even drinking is fun for most people. But how long does that fun last? Just a few moments? The night? You described the rollercoaster and then how movies just didn't do it for you anymore. It is fun for the moment, but it doesn't last. It was fun for a while, but in order to keep it fun, you have to up the ante. When say only Jesus will last, we mean it. I love video games and a number of movies. They are lots of fun too, but guess what? They only last a short time too. Eventually they get old and I want to play something different. So it's not just sinful activities. It any activity that doesn't include God. I've had more lasting fun spending one week with my church youth group during their summer camp several years ago than I have ever had playing a huge variety of video games. And while the actual event has long gone, the joy I had and the thrill of spending part of my life with those kids does not end. Even the thrill and excitement of the writing of my book has lasted much longer than any sporting event, any video game, any party I've attended. It's because my book was written to give glory and honor to God and it is already changing lives, including some here on NarniaWeb who've read it. How do you find something that truly lasts? The only real place to look is Jesus.

Just throwing this out there, but everyone is aware that Ouija boards are toys, right? As in actually created by a toy company. Any activity happening during their use is usually caused by someone's friend getting bored over the lack of action

I know that Ouija boards are marketed as toys and have been for a very long time. The distinction is that this "toy" was designed from its inception to be a tool for speaking to spirits, of the deceased or otherwise. It's kind of hard to stand it next to a game of Monopoly or Sorry! and make the comparison that they're anything alike. I think the underlying issue with Ouija boards is the concept of what it promotes, that is speaking to "the other side", especially when most folks aren't really aware of how very dangerous that is, and using a Ouija isn't akin to unlocking the door or opening it a crack. It's more like opening it wide so that anyone can come on in. Do I think everyone that uses a Ouija becomes a demon possessed person? No, absolutely not. But the thought of giving someone I love a "toy" with the design premise it has would be like me handing them a deck of tarot cards or the like. It's best to just stay clear of the stuff.

I suppose it's time for us to really, as WFJ mentioned, skip the pleasantries.

You are either doing one or two things here. You are either fooling us all and being intentionally stubborn and have no intentions of messing with demons (trolling), or you are sincerely contemplating practicing witchcraft. Since we all can easily agree that the former is a huge waste of time and only proves someone's lack of respect for others and themselves, we shall confront the latter.

If you have intentions of messing (or even experimenting) with demons, or just coming into contact through any sort of spirit that is not achieved through prayer to God and through the Holy Spirit, you are practicing witchcraft, and are voluntarily using yourself as bait to any sort of spirit that may or may not exist. You say you are doing this just to see if they perhaps do exist, though you do not understand the consequences of your actions in the case that they do (and they do).

It is not just the Christians' principle that messing with the spirit world is a dangerous thing. Christians and non-Christians alike agree that any sort of witchcraft is just setting yourself up for trouble.

Here is perhaps the most important part of my post, so read here if you don't feel like reading all of it:

Be watchful and careful. Your enemy the devil prowls and roams around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour to tear apart and eat. Be firm in the faith and resist him... "

Essentially, you are pouring A1 sauce all of yourself, marinating in spices, and presenting yourself on a golden platter to the devil and his demons, if we assume they exist. Since you find it worth the time to do, you obviously have a hunch that they might.

What are you doing to yourself? Do you even read these verses that we throw at you? Do you not listen to the stories of those who are emotionally and physically broken because they did some of the things that are you thinking of doing?

Wake up and take a look at reality. If you have any sort of will to observe, you will find that what you are doing is dangerous and foolish. Unless, of course, you wish to continue in your self-imposed ignorance, then there is nothing I can do for you.

We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.

I will address some points later but first I'd like to tell of an interesting experience that happened to me last summer. This was right after my friends and I visited the graveyard that was supposed to be haunted and talked to the ghosts and invited them to come (just like on ghost hunters.) For a few days after that I had trouble sleeping and would hear noises like footsteps downstairs in my house. I had just finished reading the Amityville horror a few weeks prior and one night I had a dream that there were demons shrieking through my house. When I woke up, I looked at the clock and saw that it was 3:15 AM. (Any who have read that book know that it is supposedly the time of demon possession.) I laughed it off and went back to sleep.

The next day I was walking through Barnes & Nobles and a woman stopped me and asked me if I believed in ghosts. She was wearing a T-shirt that had the sun on it and she had white hair. I told her that yes, I believed in ghosts. She then told me that she talked to spirits and the night before she had talked to the ghost of a little boy who had died when he was five years old and wanted to tell his parents that he loved them. She then said that it was important to use strong protection when talking to spirits because otherwise you may get malicious spirits who wish to harm you. I asked her how she achieved this protection and she said it involved rituals. She said she was not a witch (some other name I guess, I think it was some type of psychic) and she said that both she and her daughter could talk to and see spirits.

I felt a little strange at the series of events that were happening and I found myself a little creeped out by this woman who had randomly approached me, even though I think she was a nice person. Right after I finished talking to her, my friend who was going to meet me there jumped out at me from behind the bookshelf and seriously scared me. We went from there with two other friends to a dirt road way back in the woods on the other side of town that was supposedly haunted by strange music and was also the sight of several murders among other crimes. (this road was not open and we weren't actually supposed to drive along it) We heard the strange music and three out of the four of us felt a strange sense of evil and discomfort. We begged our friend who was driving the truck to turn around but he was the only one who didn't mind it and he parked the truck across the railroad tracks by the road and got out and walked back into the woods. While we were waiting in the truck a train came and we screamed for him to come back while we all got out of the truck. He came back and moved the truck just in time but it was scary.

Needless to say after that day of strange events I have been intrigued at the source of all of this. I just want to gather my thoughts and solidify in my head whether it is real or just my imagination. Right now I believe it is all my imagination and I also think the witch lady was just crazy. When I returned to that road with a clear head I didn't feel a sense of evil anymore but the flowers in the summer were really pretty and I found it lonely and beautiful.

Also, strangely, after that day I didn't have any more trouble sleeping--I mean I still had the usual trouble but it wasn't due to fear, and was no longer scared in my own house.

EDIT: Hopefully this explains why I am interested and intrigued by these types of things. I just love adventures and I love having fun and getting scared. Also this is all true: the dream about demons, talking to the witch-lady, and going to the haunted road all happened on the same day. I honestly didn't make any of it up.

I just love adventures and I love having fun and getting scared.

I love doing these too Moonlight Dancer, but involving yourself in the spirit world is much more harmful than watching a horror movie or scaring each other in a graveyard. I enjoy some horror movies. I enjoy the scares they provide. But instead of intriguing me to explore them in real life, horror movies make me want to stay away from such practices and look to God for all I need. As I believe there are such evil forces, they provide a warning. Witchcraft and similar practices are all very, very dangerous. For you; for your soul.

MoonlightDancer, the only thing I have left to say is that doubt always exists. There is never going to be a point of clarity. I have experienced and heard stories of miracles. As a little girl I fell in a frozen lake too far away for anyone to rescue me and somehow ended up on shore soaking wet but alive. Usually I think it was an angel that pulled me out, sometimes I wonder if it wasn't. Sometimes I doubt. I have heard stories about demons, such as the accounts on this thread (fortunately I haven't come face to face with one) but I still doubt. No matter what horrors you find, I can predict that you will still doubt. Think about the Israelites who saw the plagues, walked through a parted sea, ate manna every day and still doubted God. That's where faith comes in.

I have a new discussion question.

1. What good do people get out of attending church? If you don't go why have you chosen not to? If you don't believe in God what do you think people who go to church get out of it?

1. What good do people get out of attending church?

In short I believe the Church is the Body of Christ. Coming together to worship Christ is very important, to bring glory to him, to thank him for what he's done and who he is. Church is also a great time to grow in our understanding of God and live our faith authentically in all we do. It's a time to be challenged and encouraged, to be open and honest with each other. Sadly, it's often the case that churches do good work within their walls, but not so much outside in the community. We have to change that (or rather, we have to be open to God in transforming us to be more like him and giving as a desire to reach out to those around us, with the Good News).

1. What good do people get out of attending church? If you don't go why have you chosen not to? If you don't believe in God what do you think people who go to church get out of it?

I love going to church. It's important because not only do we learn about God and get reminded of certain scriptures we might not normally read, we also get together with other Christians like ourselves -- something a lot of people don't always get to do if all their co-workers or even family members are unsaved. It's a weekly reminder of God, the Bible, and Christian principles.

Some reasons people might not go (besides laziness or being too busy with other things) could be that the person can't find a good church. My family had that problem for a long time. Unfortunately, a lot of churches don't follow the Bible quite like they should. Worldliness and human teaching seeps into the sermons and the members, and sometimes going to such churches can be more harmful than helpful. For years, my family didn't go to church because there simply were not any good ones in our area. We finally found a good one farther away (Although now we can't go to that either, because of gas prices. I really miss it.).

As for what non-believers get out of it, it depends on the person and it depends on the church. Some non-believers are "religious". Some think of it as a tradition. Some may use it as a reminder to help others and do good deeds to make their life more meaningful. And other times, churches are so worldly in their teachings, that non-believers will identify with it more than Christians will.

~Riella

1. What good do people get out of attending church?

If I recall correctly, in the Bible, doesn't God command his people to assemple in a place of worship every week (ie church) I'm afraid I don't know the exact quote

If you don't go why have you chosen not to?

I do attend church, but I don't go nearly as often as I should. There are many reasons for this, including the bad ones... I'm to lazy to get up in the morning. But I've also grown a bit discontent with my personal church, not discontent with God mind you, just the church- or rather the attitudes of the people there. Many of my fellow-church goers can be very judgemental regarding other religious sects, even other Christian denominations, governmental standings, philosophies. And it's just that's not what God is about... Don't get me wrong I'm not accussing them of being false preachers or prophets, because they're not... but I'm just sick of the side talk from the other church-goers, because it goes against so much that Jesus said. Secondly I'm in college and I have no car... so when I'm not home it is hard for me to commute to church. I'm kind of hoping to find a church that suits me in the future... A part of me wants to look into some of the non-denomination churches (I was raised Baptist), but I need to do more research into what they believe in first.

I go to church. As they say, old habits die hard.

Here is a topic that is not only relevant to the topic title but also to the time of year. What do you all think about Ressurrection of Jesus Christ? Was it a myth? Was it a hoax? Or is there actual scientific and historical evidence that proves that it did happen or had to happen the way the Bible describes it? Easter is upon us this weekend and it is the time that many people return to church in honor of this single most pivotal event in the history of mankind. And to help the people at my college university, my Intervarsity Chapter is bringing Dr. Charles Jackson of Creation Truth Ministries to speak about "Can you be a Scientist and Believe in God?" this morning and "Evidences about the Death and Ressurrection of Jesus Christ" this afternoon. Though I doubt there will be much he will say that I haven't heard, there might be new angles to look at the evidence from that he will point out.

The Ressurection is also the most important aspect of Christianity. Without it, everything falls apart. It is what separates Jesus from everyone else because all the other prophets and spokes persons of other religions are still dead. If Jesus did not rise, then we are no different from anyone else. If he did rise, then everything else that goes with it is also true.

Random quickpost of randomy randomness ...

MoonLight Dancer, the other posters are talking in terms of Christian spiritual warfare, and you seem to be talking in terms of adrenaline: comparing experimenting with the occult to riding a rollercoaster, for example, so as not to be afraid of it. Those are different points of view.

I think a better analogy about the difference between desensitizing oneself to fears, versus trifling with fearful things, would be this: the way to get over fear of a serial killer in town is not to go down the dark alley where his last victim is rumored to have been and double-dog dare him to getcha, because, if you get away won't you have this really cool story!!11elevens!!11! No, the way to deal with the real fear of a serial killer in town is to support the police who are trying to stop him.

Demons hate you because you have a chance to go to Heaven and they won't. Demons do not care about your feelings, your intentions, or about what you hope to get out of the experience.

They want to kill you.

They want you dead.

Not necessarily right away, since tormenting you could be their version of fun. And you could drag someone else down with you. But in the end, they want to kill you. They want you dead.

We want you to live.

Hope this helps.

...

As to world's end, this 2012 business is because someone who could barely read Mayan got !!eleventy!!-excited over some supposed claim that God told the Mayans when the world would end, instead of telling His First-born and beloved (the Jewish people) or The Bride of Christ the beloved (Christians i.e., us). This new book, written by actual archaeologists and linguists:

2012 and the end of the world : the Western roots of the Maya apocalypse / by Matthew Restall and Amara Solari.

stomps on that pretty flat.

Given that most Christians can't even read our own Bible in the original Hebrew, Aramaic and koine Greek, but must depend upon translations, you'd think we'd know better by now.

...

The purpose of the Church?

Hebrews 10:25 (Amplified Bible)

Not forsaking or neglecting [Do not forsake or neglect] to assemble together [as believers], as is the habit of some people, but admonishing (warning, urging, and encouraging) one another, and all the more faithfully as you see the day approaching.

We should meet as the Body of Christ for the communion of saints, for accountability, to spiritually feed on the Word, to bear one another's burdens, and to rejoice with those who rejoice and mourn with those who mourn.

Oh, and we should show up because we were asked to. Or as Naaman's people said to him (2 Kings 5:13), if God had asked us to prove ourselves to Him and do something hard, we would have done it, wouldn't we? Yet we humans get all snobby when He asks us to do something that's easy. Go figure.

(Side note: Given the discussion that's been going on in here recently, I found the banner ad at the bottom of the site as I wrote this post to be incredibly ironic.)

FencerforJesus's question about the validity of the miracle of the resurrection relates to a question regarding God's miracles that I've been thinking about for some time now. (And in response to your question, Fencer, I need to research the subject more before setting my opinion in stone.)

There are some common cheeky "proofs" that God does not exist, that usually go along the lines of something like...

"Can God create a boulder so big that he can't lift it?"
"Can God create a square triangle?"
et cetera, et cetera.

The reason that these arguments don't work is because they aren't logically sound. If the God of the Bible is infinite, logically he cannot create a boulder so big that he can't lift it because the boulder would have to be bigger than infinity, which is impossible to even define. God cannot create a square triangle because the very definition of a triangle is a three sided polygon, and if God made a four sided triangle, all that would happen would be the definition of a triangle changing.

Christians find a lot of comfort in the fact that their God is a logical God. Their main way of coping with tragedies is to remind themselves that everything is part of God's plan.

Also, from the Christian perspective, God has created a logical universe. The reason we have been able to make extraordinary advances in the areas of science and technology is because the laws of physics are predictable and for all practical purposes, always work. If we lived in a world where magicians with real powers roamed the lands, and magic was common, our society would fall apart because our world would lose it's reliability.

So my cheeky "proof" that God does not exist is...
"Can God break the laws of physics?"

God performed many miracles in the bible, and some of them are quite extraordinarily impossible in a physical sense. God made the sun stand still in the sky so that the Israelites could fight a battle (imagine the chaos that would have caused everywhere else on earth), and Jesus fed thousands of people starting with a small portion of food, to just name two. Maybe I'm wrong here, but I was always under the assumption that Jesus created bread and fish out of thin air. It's not really possible to do that without causing serious holes in the space-time continuum.

Tess, have you ever considered the fact that God can do anything he wants to? God had to create the universe in order to have physics, so if he could create the universe before there were such a thing as physics don't you think he could bend the space-time continuum at will?

If God could say "Let there be also be stars" and badda BANG badda BOOM, All the sudden a couple hundred billion gigantic burning balls of hydrogen and helium appear in the sky. If he could do this, then couldn’t his son create a couple thousand fish and loaves? Where is the logic in that reasoning? Have you ever considered that God works outside the realm of physics and that he can do whatever he darn well pleases?

One of my favorite sayings to explain the unexplainable is “That’s why he’s God and we aren’t” Christianity is not all about facts, a lot of it is about faith.

- Little Joe

Yes, God can break the Laws of Physics. He did create a set of rules -- the laws of Science. But that doesn't mean the laws are so strong that they are an actual law. The Laws of Science are merely a set of rules the Universe follows "Under normal circumstances" for lack of a better word. The rules of Science are what I call "Most-of-the-time" rules. it's what the Universe follows on a day-to-day basis. But of course God, who created these rules, can stop them for a second and do something which would not normally happen naturally, if a situation called for that.

~Riella