It's contradictory

Where does the contradiction lie? We choose things based on desires, passions, concerns, and ground motives and it doesn't make the choice any less free. If God changes those, then we still choose Him freely.

But which option is chosen is freely available to the individual. Whether they go uphill or downhill is the result of free will.

Upon what basis did the individual make the choice? Again, either the choice was caused materially or immaterially. Given naturalism, the answer is materially, therefore the choice is the result of a long chain of causation.

Of course the choice is freely available---the question is which choice they want. And who chooses what to want and upon what basis?

EDIT: and again, this still doesn't address the reality that naturalism, taken to its logical conclusion, leads to skepticism given that our faculties are aimed at survival, not truth. They deliver only what beliefs are necessary for survival, which are not necessarily true beliefs.

TBG

Well, this thread has kind of died~

Anyway, while having a discussion with one of my good friends, who is a Christian, I came up with some questions and we had an interesting discussion. I guess I can share some of my questions now. I am not trying to start a debate or argue against Christianity--I don't really care about "disproving" it or justifying my point of view. I just would be interested to hear people's insights on these questions, because I honestly wonder about them. So here they are--and if any of these have been previously discussed, feel free to ignore.

1. Why did God create the world? Was it out of boredom or loneliness perhaps?

2. To what extent of emotion does God feel? It appears to me that it is either extreme anger or love, with nothing in between, which leads me to wonder how someone can both be hateful and loving at the exact same time.

3. Why didn’t Eve show any surprise when the Serpent talked to her? If a snake came up to me and started talking, I’d be like “holy smokes…that snake just talked to me!” However Eve showed no surprise which leads me to believe that she either had a previous relationship with the snake or all the animals talked in the garden and it wasn’t surprising.

4. Going with the former question, how do we draw the connection between the serpent being Satan? How do we know that the serpent was Satan and not just some cunning talking snake?

5. I really dislike the idea of invisible demons following us around and plotting against us. How did the demons come to be invisible? And how was Satan supposedly able to take the form of a snake? Can all demons take on the form of an animal? How and why do demons possess people?—I really dislike that idea too! And how is it that some people can see demons and angels and others can’t? This seems very sketchy, I’m not too keen on it.

6. If the Bible so clearly says “Do Not Get Drunk Off Wine” then why would Jesus turn the water into wine when people were ALREADY drunk in order to keep the party going? He seems to advocating drunkenness if you ask me.

7. If God is so “unchanging” then why is he an angry God in the old Testament and then a “love and forgiveness” preaching hippie in the New Testament? Doesn’t seem very consistent to me.

#6 can be ignored because we've already discussed drunkenness, I just thought I'd keep it in there for added thought.

MoonlightDancer,

which leads me to wonder how someone can both be hateful and loving at the exact same time.

If God is so “unchanging” then why is he an angry God in the old Testament and then a “love and forgiveness” preaching hippie in the New Testament? Doesn’t seem very consistent to me.

I must say this beforehand-- I will used Christian beliefs that you might not believe in, but here's my input to some of your questions.

1. God is not hateful of us; He hates our sin, which we brought upon ourselves. To quote my pastor, the tears of God (love/compassion) and the justice of God exist side by side. Love wins, but justice wins, too. It's hard to grasp, but it's true. If one wants to believe in only a "loving" God who overlooks our detrimental sin, lets us go with everything, and doesn't show us justice--not only will we be awful, but our world would be corrupted. All of us have an inborn desire for justice to be administered. God placed this in us, as he also placed a merciful side of us.

In the Old Testament, God is not only angry. Though he sents many judgements to Israel and Judah as we see in Isaiah, Jeremiah, & the minor prophet books, he says that those who don't have wicked hearts and those who have a desire for His goodness, which some do have, those people will stay. One might say, "So God let us sin, and then gets angry at us for it? That isn't fair!" We choose to sin. True Christians are not people with the most impressive list of moral deeds: they are the ones who know they fail in being good on their own, so they look to God for holiness. This is a result of someone who doesn't have wicked, scheming hearts. And, let me tell you, there are plenty of fake Christians who claim to be "forgiven by grace" but have absolutely no desire to be open to God or search for Him, because He'll tell them to give up their little addictions.

And for "love and forgiveness" hippie-- what was so loving and forgiving and hippie-ish of Him getting a whip and throwing down the selling things of the thieves in the temple? That was justice! He showed love and forgiveness to those who desired a changed heart--which is why he forgave the prostitute whom he told everyone to stone if they hadn't committed a sin. Jesus wasn't saying, "Skip justice! Let's spread peace...." He said that the penalty was to stone her, if you hadn't committed a sin. Why? because most of the people in the accusing crowd were pretty hypocritical. Jesus never committed sin, so he could have stoned her. Only He truly knew her heart, and evidently, it was willing to be changed, and he forgave. If there came along one person who was outrightly sinning and not caring, Jesus wouldn't have given the same response. Jesus didn't save all the prostitutes of Jerusalem, He only saved the ones who wanted to change.
Hypocritcal leads to the Pharisees. Jesus outright told them off in a godly way. They were hypocrites who only cared about people's view of them, but not God's. Even the ones who did believe in Him didn't come out and say it because they were too afraid of being kicked out of the League of Pharisees. And, unfortunately, there are scores of people in church like this. Even "good Christians" have this downfall: but those who truly care about this problem will look to God to help them.

About Eve and the talking serpent. Romans says all of Creation is cursed. And there's that verse in Numbers 22, in KJV

And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass

So with the terminology used here, it's likely animals talked before the Fall, and then after their mouths were closed. That's why Eve probably wasn't freaked out.

For whether the serpent is Satan-- in Revelation, "serpent" is used to describe him. So is "dragon." I guess he chose that because as it says, the serpent was more subtil than any other beast.

God has not changed through the whole process. In the Old Testament, he tells to those who trust him, "I will never, no never, no never leave you or forsake you." (this is really the correct way: the original language had a triple never that He would never, ever, ever leave us who trust in Him.) God made us. Since I crochet I'll use this, it's like me crocheting a little toy and (say it can speak) it keeps on telling me that I'm making it wrong, and it doesn't want a certain trunk or ear or tail. I know what I have in mind for it, I'm in control of it. (In no way am I comparing myself to God, just using an example.)
Of course those who desire to dismiss God's presence and Being like Darwin/athiests try to break His rule over us because they don't want to submit to God, as Psalms says. That's really an authority problem. (I'm not saying this is you, just saying some people in this world are like that. ) Just because one doesn't believe in God doesn't mean He's not there. I know that sounds very surfacey, kiddie-Christian argument-like, but a) it isn't b) it is true.

Sorry, but where is scriptural references that Jesus made the wine for drunk people? I can't seem to recall that. The Bible says all scripture is God-breathed and influenced by Him, and Proverbs mentions several times not to be decieved by the sparkle and smoothness of wine and not to get drunk. Jesus drank wine (but didn't get drunk) and Paul advised Timothy to take some wine for Timothy's stomach problems.

Sinners who are humble and want to change, God can change. Sinners who are proud don't let God change them. And "Sinners" sums up all of humanity.

I hope that made sense. I apologize for any grammatical erros: I'm sick right now, so my mind isn't working gramatically at the moment.

1. Why did God create the world? Was it out of boredom or loneliness perhaps?

I have no idea. I've often wondered... perhaps he wanted to make something... the way one builds a house. But I really don't know... I guess that's for Him to know

2. To what extent of emotion does God feel? It appears to me that it is either extreme anger or love, with nothing in between, which leads me to wonder how someone can both be hateful and loving at the exact same time.

I think he feels the inbetween stuff kinda... he is willing to forgive after all.

3. Why didn’t Eve show any surprise when the Serpent talked to her? If a snake came up to me and started talking, I’d be like “holy smokes…that snake just talked to me!” However Eve showed no surprise which leads me to believe that she either had a previous relationship with the snake or all the animals talked in the garden and it wasn’t surprising.

Because at one point humans could talk with the other creatures. Of course they have since lost that ability... wheather it be from the fall or from ignorance I'm not sure, but if you try... you can manage some basic inter-species communication skills I've done it- it's great All it takes is a little homework, a little faith, and a willingness to listen.

4. Going with the former question, how do we draw the connection between the serpent being Satan? How do we know that the serpent was Satan and not just some cunning talking snake?

This is something I've often asked myself, was it Satan himself, or a snake that also fell and came undrer his control?

5. I really dislike the idea of invisible demons following us around and plotting against us. How did the demons come to be invisible? And how was Satan supposedly able to take the form of a snake? Can all demons take on the form of an animal? How and why do demons possess people?—I really dislike that idea too! And how is it that some people can see demons and angels and others can’t? This seems very sketchy, I’m not too keen on it.

Don't we all have a fear of being hunted? As for how they came to be invisible, I'm not sure I think demons and angels always had the ability to be visible and invisible at will in our world. For the Satan/snake thing, see above. For the people who can see them, some are born with gifts from God, others only see them when they want to be seen. As for why, who knows?

6. If the Bible so clearly says “Do Not Get Drunk Off Wine” then why would Jesus turn the water into wine when people were ALREADY drunk in order to keep the party going? He seems to advocating drunkenness if you ask me.

Can you give me the reference? I'm not sure what part you are talking about here...

7. If God is so “unchanging” then why is he an angry God in the old Testament and then a “love and forgiveness” preaching hippie in the New Testament? Doesn’t seem very consistent to me.

Did he really change... It seems to me he was both in both. (Revelations? Job? Jonah?)

7. MoonlightDancer, Its my understanding that God is very difficult to put into a box. I think both the "angry" God of the old testament and "gentle Jesus meek and mild" of the new testament are both stereotypes that collapse upon close study.

O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and how inscrutable His ways! For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor? Rom 11.33-34

I think the inconsistencies come more from our lack of understanding of what He does and feels than actual inconsistencies. One of my Sabbath School teachers has read the Bible four times and she said every time she reads it she is struck by how hard God is trying to save us from ourselves. I think the anger described in the OT is often the equivalent of a mother yelling at her kid to get out of the street when a truck is coming or a father rushing to stop his child from touching a hot stove and burning himself.

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Pet 3.9

Jesus in the NT has the stereotype of being meek and mild. But I think He was more of an activist and a reformer. He engaged in sharp verbal sparring matches with the pharisees. He drew crowds of thousands when He spoke. His voice was powerful enough to stop storms and awaken the dead. Here is an example of when He told the pharisees off:

13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. Matthew 23: 13 NIV

I'm not trying to pressure you to believe in God. I'm more trying to explain the way that I see in the Bible the character of God breaking out of the mold that people try to put Him in. A lot of people (believers and nonbelievers) try very hard to sum up the nature of God as being one way or other but I think in doing that we all miss out on the beauty of the story in scriptures. Its the rescue of a people that are in dire danger of self destruction and isolation. We really do get on better if we can love each other and forgive wrongs rather than exacting revenge.

"The danger is that in reaction to abuses and distortions of an idea, we'll reject it completely. And in the process miss out on the good of it, the worth of it, the truth of it."

— Rob Bell

Edit:

I think MoonlightDancer is talking about Jesus' miracle where He turns water into wine at the wedding. Its in John 2:1-11. His mother asks Him to do something because they have run out of wine at the wedding. I've heard that back then running out of wine at a wedding would have been a humiliation grave enough to stop the wedding from happening. Jesus did it to help the family responsible "save face" (something very important in that culture).

I think it was a matter of priorities. He decided that honoring His mother's wishes and saving the marriage was more important than sobriety right then.

Alright, this may be time for Dr. Ransom length post.

1. First off, God does not need us. He does not need his creation. He does not need us to worship him. He doesn't need a single thing from us. He is self-sufficient. He never gets bored and he never gets lonely. Why did he create us? It is not because he needed to. It's because he wanted to. He wanted to display his character and himself to someone other than himself. And because God is the ultimate being, everything must go to him.

2. If we are God's creation and we have emotion, than every emotion we feel is something that God can feel as well. He feels anger. He feels love. He feels jealous. He feels betrayed. He feels pain. He feels joy. But because he is infinite and we are finite, his emotions are far deeper than ours. Why does God seem always angry with the Jews? He is jealous. He will not share the affection of his people with another 'god'. The relationship between God and the Jews is a picture of the relationship between God and the Church. This is depicted as a marriage. Any guy on this thread who is married can attest to this. If you are married, and you found your spouse with someone else, how would that make you feel? That is what God feels, only much deeper and worse. But God is so patient and longsuffering that he not only waits for us to come back, he goes after us.

3. There is a lot we don't really know about what things looked like and did prior to the Fall. It is also believed that serpents had arms and legs because when God cursed the serpent, he said the serpent would crawl on its belly for the rest of its life. Did the animals talk like they do in Narnia? I simply don't know.

4. Satan got his description as a snake or serpent from Genesis 3. As an accuser and deceiver, it is believed that Satan possessed the serpent. Because God cursed the serpent, before this moment, the serpent was part of God's good creation. I can't say right now the exact details about what happened.

5. Demons, angels, and spiritual beings. This happens to fall in my specialty. I have a gift of what people call 'spiritual discernment'. I can't 'see' demons or angels, but I can sense their presence. Why are they invisible? I describe it best as another dimension. As a 2-dimensional being cannot see the 3rd dimension, we cannot see this one. But they can see and very well interact with ours.
Can demons take the form of animals? Absolutely. I haven't seen enough evidence to suggest ghosts are people that haven't 'gone to the other side'. But I do know enough about demons to know they can easily manafest themselves as ghosts. They can take the form of animals or whatever they want. We had a conversation about a year ago with someone who took Phillip Pullman's "The Golden Compass" literally and believed she had a 'daemon' that counseled her. I took this very seriously because even if it was a 'figment of her imagination' I know demons can easily take that form and she would never know when/if there was a switch.
How and why to possessions take place? In order for a demon to even be involved in someone's life, an invitation must be initiated. Those invitations can come in various forms. I've seen a number of episodes of "A Haunting" on Discovery Channel and I've seen a very interesting common thing: there is some kind of invitation in almost every story. It can come in the form of an imaginary friend (I am not saying this as a blanket statement, just that it has happened this way.). It can come through an occult activity such as a Wicca ritual or use of an Ouiji Board. It can even come in the form of an 'area of sin'. But something else I need to say. There is a difference between 'possession' and 'oppression'. Possession is when a demon actually takes control of a person. Oppression is when the person still has control but there is intense pressure, often some type of depression, and at times 'strange things' occuring in the person's life. And why? There are a number of reasons why, but they all boil down to Satan's three primary goals: to steal, to kill, and destroy. And Satan is out to do these three things not just to every one of us, but to every aspect of our lives.

6. The passage here is John 2. Towards the end of the party, the party manager runs out of wine which not only makes him, but also the host the laughing stock of the whole village. Jesus himself even said it wasn't his buisness to deal with this. He did it because his mother requested that he not let the host be humiliated. Was it advocation for getting drunk? I'm not so sure.

7. Your question is nothing new. Christians have been asked this ever since the New Testament was written. And this stems from a mis-conception of "God=Love" to "Love=God" for the NT. Yes, God does seem vengeful in the Old Testament, but God is also full of the Love that is sought after in the New Testament. At the same time, God is also just as vengeful in the New Testatment as he is in the Old Testament. Look at Acts 5, when Ananias and Saphira were killed for lying. God doesn't change. He still loves his people. He still hates sin. He still is jealous of anyone following anything or anyone other than him. The New Testament does have the stories of God's vengence like the Old Testament does but (perhaps a study should be done on this) if you compare the incidents between the Old and New Testament in terms of scale of incidents per historical accounts, they should end up pretty close to the same.

Comments on just a few of these questions:

1. Why did God create the world? Was it out of boredom or loneliness perhaps?

As Fencer has noted, God is perfectly self-sufficient and does not need anything - or anyone - else. As such He isn't lonely or bored. He created the world, and us, to bring further glory to Himself. The heavens declare the glory of God (Psalm 19:1), and the Westminster Shorter Catechism observes that the chief end of man is to glorify God, and to enjoy him forever.

4. Going with the former question, how do we draw the connection between the serpent being Satan? How do we know that the serpent was Satan and not just some cunning talking snake?

As I recall, the connection between the tempting serpent and Satan - whether as a direct manifestation or something else - comes from Genesis 3 itself, in which God curses the serpent:

I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and her offspring;
he shall bruise your head,
and you shall bruise his heel." (3:15)

This is traditionally considered the first Messianic prophecy: 'her offspring' is a reference to Christ, who would defeat Satan (bruise his head) at Calvary, even while Satan would seem to defeat him (bruise his heel). For example, see this discussion from theologian Matthew Henry's commentary.

6. Water into wine:

Conina and Fencer make some excellent points regarding the significance of running out of wine then, and what this miracle shows about Jesus' high regard for his mother.

Strictly speaking we don't know the people at the wedding party were drunk - though it's certainly possible. The passage simply points out that the ordinary practice (waiting until people were too drunk to notice before serving the lesser wine) had been turned on its head:

When the master of the feast tasted the water now become wine, and did not know where it came from (though the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom and said to him, "Everyone serves the good wine first, and when people have drunk freely, then the poor wine. But you have kept the good wine until now." (2:9-10)
(edited for clarity)

I thought I would add my two cents worth. Some questions have already been answered pretty well, so I'll just take note of the ones about which I have something to say.

1. Why did God create the world? Was it out of boredom or loneliness perhaps?

The Bible is pretty clear that most, if not all, things God does is for His glory. It's not too hard to understand if you really think about it, especially since he's given us a lot of his own traits. Think about when you write a poem, make jewelry, create anything with your hands. Are you creating something, because you need those things? because you would feel lonely without them? Or is it because you like to create things and want to show your talent?

2. To what extent of emotion does God feel? It appears to me that it is either extreme anger or love, with nothing in between, which leads me to wonder how someone can both be hateful and loving at the exact same time.

I wouldn't say God is hateful. There's a difference between anger and hate. When it comes to His children, he gets angry at us just like parents get angry with their children when they misbehave. When it comes to people who aren't His children, he hates their sin, which isn't covered with Christ's blood and is still deeply part of their hearts. So he doesn't hate them, he hates the sin in them.

3. Why didn’t Eve show any surprise when the Serpent talked to her? If a snake came up to me and started talking, I’d be like “holy smokes…that snake just talked to me!” However Eve showed no surprise which leads me to believe that she either had a previous relationship with the snake or all the animals talked in the garden and it wasn’t surprising.

I doubt animals talked back then. Snakes may have, perhaps. I remember reading something about the serpent being more cunning than other creatures. I can't really say. As for her lack of surprise, you or I would be surprised if a snake talked to us because we have already grown used to this world, and we know snakes and animals don't normally talk. It may be different if you were one of the first people on the earth ever, and the world was knew. Adam and Eve hadn't exactly gone to school and learned about animal behavior. So, really, she didn't know what to expect when it came to anything in this world.

4. Going with the former question, how do we draw the connection between the serpent being Satan? How do we know that the serpent was Satan and not just some cunning talking snake?
I'm not sure if the sanke was possessed by Satan or not. Could be, then again maybe not. I know other parts of the Bible refer to Satan as a serpent. But I'm not sure if it makes any difference. Either Satan came in the form of a snake, possessed a snake, or merely used the snake for an evil purpose. The main point is, Eve was tempted and fell.

5. I really dislike the idea of invisible demons following us around and plotting against us.

I really dislike it too. But of course, God does offer protection against these things. He is in control, and demons can't do anything he won't allow.

How did the demons come to be invisible?

As already stated in other posts, it's similar to another dimension. A little bit different than just being invisible.

And how is it that some people can see demons and angels and others can’t? This seems very sketchy, I’m not too keen on it.

Have you ever heard of The Gifts of the Spirit? Christians are given gifts that they can use to help further Christ's cause -- things like Prophecy, Word of Wisdom, Word of Knowledge, Speaking in Tongues, etc. One is Gift of Discernment, and it comes in different degrees. Sometimes it allows people to sense when demons are there, sometimes it allows people to sense if a particular prophesy is true and from God or if it's from Satan and false, and sometimes it allows people to see and hear demons and angels. People are usually given this gift to use it in ministry -- to help sense when demons are there or plaguing people, so they can get rid of them. Others see demons and angels in visions and dreams.

7. If God is so “unchanging” then why is he an angry God in the old Testament and then a “love and forgiveness” preaching hippie in the New Testament? Doesn’t seem very consistent to me.

It's because we entered the Age of Grace, after Christ's death. God din't change, but the way he dealt with us and the way the world did change. This may sound inconsistant. Let me see if I can think of an example to show what I mean. Think of Tirian, the maker of this site. A few years ago, this site was different wasn't it? The Old NarniaWeb. Then, one day, Tirian changed the site to the way it is now. Does that mean Tirian changed? Or was it just the website that changed? I'm pretty sure Tirian is the same person as he was before, although this world he's created might have undergone a transformation.

~Riella

Fencer wroteThere is a difference between 'possession' and 'oppression'. Possession is when a demon actually takes control of a person. Oppression is when the person still has control but there is intense pressure, often some type of depression, and at times 'strange things' occuring in the person's life. And why? There are a number of reasons why, but they all boil down to Satan's three primary goals: to steal, to kill, and destroy. And Satan is out to do these three things not just to every one of us, but to every aspect of our lives.

I was hoping you would answer this question. Could you possibly elaborate on this? Are you saying that in order for someone to be oppressed by demons, they must have first initiated an invitation? Or does that just apply to possession? How would someone discern whether they are being oppressed by demons as opposed to just bad things happening? And what does this depression look like? Is all depression a result of demonic influence?

4. Going with the former question, how do we draw the connection between the serpent being Satan? How do we know that the serpent was Satan and not just some cunning talking snake?

As I recall, the connection between the tempting serpent and Satan - whether as a direct manifestation or something else - comes from Genesis 3 itself, in which God curses the serpent:

I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and her offspring;
he shall bruise your head,
and you shall bruise his heel." (3:15)

This is traditionally considered the first Messianic prophecy: 'her offspring' is a reference to Christ, who would defeat Satan (bruise his head) at Calvary, even while Satan would seem to defeat him (bruise his heel). For example, see this discussion from theologian Matthew Henry's commentary.

I never thought of it that way. I suppose it makes sense too, but I always had learned/ believed it had prophesized the rivalry between humans and snakes that exists to this day. We hurt them-they hurt us... I don't see a reason however that it couldn't mean both

MoonlightDancer, let's see what I can do in the time I have.

Many times, oppression comes before possession. I have dealt with several people who were actually demon-possessed. One was a woman whose trouble began after she was raped when she was 19. Now to be clear, a tragic event like that does not lead to oppression or possession directly. I've heard other stories where people were molested as children and years down the road as a adults, they would describe a 'comforting spirit' that would visit them after the encounter. They may take a variety of shapes or forms, but listening to these said spirits are the invitation I am talking about. According to the testimony of Mark Driscoll of Mars Hill as he was asked to share about spiritual warfare, he retold about this counseling session and it was revealed that a demon was invovled in a case just as I am describing and the demon's drive was to get this said person to molest other children. These acts are done by the person but they are demonically influenced into doing then.
Another case is very familiar to NWebbers who have been here a while and know my story. I had a co-worker who while exploring religions invited three witches to come to his house and call up a demon. Even though he didn't believe in that stuff, this demon stayed behind the scenes and remained hidden until I showed up and pulled it out into the light. He actually ended up being possessed and I could tell by his character change, his language change, and his amazing knowledge of things that he could not have known otherwise. My co-worker had a dirty mouth and would use certain 4-letter words somewhere in every breath. During this time, he would go on four 1-2 hours without saying a single foul word. No matter how much of an actor you are, you can't pull that off for that amount of time.

When I am talking about things happening, I am not refering to simply bad things. I am talking about very strange, very unusual things. Having a car wreck and having a serious injury might involve some kind of demonic attack, but you can't guarentee it. Some bad things are just consequences of bad choices or just the right combination of physics to do something off kilter. Objects don't move on their own. While someone could be doing something, when an object was in one position, you leave, come back, and the object is somewhere else, someone or something had to move it. The spiritual world does interact with ours so that is a prospect to take into consideration.

Now for depression. I have not experienced depression myself I cannot say from experience, but I have talked with several people who have. I will not refute the scientific evidence that depressed people have a chemical imbalance, but I am not convinced that is the actual cause of the depression. I recognize it as a symptom of the root cause. People who are depressed tend to have no joy, no desire to interact with anyone, want to be alone most of the time, no drive, no will to press forward...those are settings where demons want us to be. Because isolated, we are easy prey. The Bible does say Satan is like a roaring lion, seeking whomever he may devour. Lions seek after the young, the weak, and the alone. The strong and alert are often too much trouble unless they are a threat. Depression is a spiritual and emotional issue and the physical sides of it are just effects. I have a friend who had a four-year depression and the only way she was able to escape was to quote Scripture. But one of the sad parts of depression is that most of the time it is set off by people who believe Satan's lies of lack of worth, lack of purpose, etc. Once people start to listen to those lies, they begin to accept it and it is a downhill spiral.

I'm out of time, so if you need more, I'll get back to you later.

When I am talking about things happening, I am not refering to simply bad things. I am talking about very strange, very unusual things... Objects don't move on their own. While someone could be doing something, when an object was in one position, you leave, come back, and the object is somewhere else, someone or something had to move it. The spiritual world does interact with ours so that is a prospect to take into consideration.

What does it mean if you're a Christian and you start to see these things hapenning? And what should you do?

~Riella

I saw your PM, I'll respond in a little bit while I prepare my response.

I simply don't understand why demons would pose as ghosts. So when people believe they are talking to the spirit of their deceased grandmother, they are really talking to a demon? One of my friends claims she talks to the spirit of her ex boyfriend who died in a tragic accident. Why would a demon pretend to be her ex boyfriend? Also, why are oouiji (sp) boards so bad? My friends and I might try one out a few weeks from now.

@MLD Don't! Not only as a Christian, am a saying this, but as a person who has heard of some very nasty experiences regarding them. 1. God says in the Bible not to practice witchcraft or similar such things. 2. When lots people use oouji boards they are dealing with a realm they don't understand... and when you do such things it can lead to sever trouble. Lets say for instance you were using a chainsaw or disassembling a bomb without any experience, knowledge or instruction of how to do it. Chances are it won't end well... its the same with oouji boards. Take for instance the LB... how Shift and the Calormenes called upon Tash, but even though they didn't believe in him he appeared anyway. It could lead to the same sort of problem Trust me when I am saying this... there are some experiments that are best left untested.