And saying "I'm married to Jesus" can lead to weird stuff.

It can lead to weird stuff indeed.

Hey, I had a question!
I don't really know what my opinion on this is yet, so I wanted to find out what you guys thought. I was wondering, (from a Christian, Bible-believing viewpoint) does God love non-Christians? I don't mean the world in general, or all people in general. I mean an individual who is not a Christian. (I don't know if that makes any difference whether it's one person or a mass, but just in case it makes a difference, I thought I'd specify)
I was wondering because I have seen scriptures that make it sound like he does (since he sent His son to die for them), and other scriptures that sound like he doesn't (because without Jesus's blood to cover them, he can't see past their sins). I don't believe that the Bible contradicts itself or anything like that. And I believe the Bible absolutely. I was just wondering what it meant.
Plus, are there any scriptures that tells Christians to love non-Christians? I was wondering, because I've found many that say to love fellow-Christians, but I haven't found any that say to love non-believers.
I did find the one that says to "love your enemies", but what if the non-Christian isn't an enemy? What if you get along fine with them, and just have other beliefs? Does that scripture still apply?
Oh, keep in mind, I am talking about loving them in a non-romantic way.
I'm looking forward to hearing your opinions on this.

~ EJ

Yeah! I finally got caught up with reading posts (on the old thread and this new thread). (sorry it feels like a major accomplishment).

Thanks TBG for answering my question about the ELCA (back on page 81 of the old thread). I've decided not to go to an ELCA church after I move (which will be happening toward the end of the month). I'm actually going to be moving into the same apartment complex as my friend, so I'll be going to her church. That way I'll know someone there. (I did check out the churches beliefs too.)

Andrew, I have a quick (or so I hope question) question about your worldview. Based on your worldview, should there be laws and rules or not? In other words, what would a society made up of people that have the same worldview as you look like?

Eustace + Jill, I'm not ignoring your question; I don't have answer. I will be interested in reading other people's answers though.

Hey, I had a question!
I don't really know what my opinion on this is yet, so I wanted to find out what you guys thought. I was wondering, (from a Christian, Bible-believing viewpoint) does God love non-Christians?

Yes, I strongly believe with NO DOUBT that God loves every person on earth! Christian or non-Christian. He does not love evil but He certainly loves the person!

Plus, are there any scriptures that tells Christians to love non-Christians? I was wondering, because I've found many that say to love fellow-Christians, but I haven't found any that say to love non-believers.

Should we hate anyone? I think we would both agree that we should not! You should hate the evil that is in them, for you are to hate evil, but not the person!
You see when I pray for non-believers, there is this love that wells up inside of me! I can't really explain it but there is this love for them like the love of God that just overwhelms me!
So to love the actual person with God's love is certainly what we should do! But do not love the evil in them.

I hope that's helps

--Benjamin

Well, some of the most well-known verses in the Bible are about love.
Let's plop down good old John 3

16For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

This verse says God loves the whole world (I know you were talking about individuals, but is it really different if He loves all of them or just each one individually? The addition is the same). It says he gave his son for them and then that some of them will believe and be saved. It doesn't say that "God gave his son that whoever believes in him shall have eternal life and be loved by God."

The command to "love your neighbor as yourself" spans as far back as Leviticus. It doesn't specify who your neighbor is.
The greatest argument (is it an argument if there isn't a counter argument?) for loving non-Christians is Jesus' example. He loved the Samaritan woman, the syrophonecian woman, Nicodemus, Zaccheus, he fed 5000 people and had pity on them because they "were like sheep without a shepherd." He loved people from every background and religion. Many of them were so shocked by his brand of love (true, real, Godly love that isn't dependent on who you are) that they wanted it in their own lives and became followers of Jesus. I believe that as followers of Jesus, we are called to the same kind of love. (Though it's so much easier said than done).

I know you were talking about individuals, but is it really different if He loves all of them or just each one individually? The addition is the same

You miss the point of the verse. To say that the verse means that "God loves everyone the same" is to take it out of the context of the rest of the Scriptures and out of the cultural context in which Jesus said it.

A Jewish reader, upon hearing this, would have been shocked. His response would have been, "Wait a minute! You mean that God loves Greeks? Samaritans? Babylonians? You mean that God can save them?" What it does not mean is that every single person in the universe is loved in the same way.

There is, naturally, a way in which God loves all people as His creation and as His image-bearers. This is why we as Christians are to love people unconditionally (though we are to take care of our own first). However, this does not negate the fact that God continually says that He hates the wicked and will judge them. The reason that we do not is because that is God's prerogative.

God loves us, His people, in a way that He does not love everyone else which is why He chose us from before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4-5). It wasn't because we were any holier or better than anyone else, but because it was His good pleasure.

TBG

Eustace+Jill, you seem to have entered the discussion with no small goals in mind! This is quite a deep question, and I hope to God (literally) that below I can ask some questions, and give some reminders, with both Grace and Truth.

Among most Christians, the default practice is to say (as some have said here!) that "God loves everyone." But too often we stop there and don't further consider what that means, or if we should equally remember other truths about God's nature. If we don't consider this, we risk a few problems, both about how we think about God and how we live.

A few questions about the partial (not false, just partial) concept of "God is love," but mostly about the idea that God loves without discrimination, and that He loves everyone in exactly the same way. What do you think?

1. What about the narratives in Scripture in which God tells the Israelites to kill their enemies? As James White (just a bit rhetorically) asks:

Is anyone seriously going to argue that God loved the Egyptian foot soldier crushed under the falling waters of the Red Sea in the same way He loved Moses, who passed safely through the sea? That He loved the pagan Canaanite priest wiped out by the Israelites as they moved through the Promised Land to the same degree that He loved Joshua? That He loved the captain of the Assyrian army He used to chasten Israel in the same fashion He loved the prophet Isaiah?

2. Do human beings have the ability to "veto" God's love? If so, might this call into question all of God's claims to be all-powerful and sovereign?

3. What about Romans 9, in which Paul, quoting Old-Testament passages, clearly says that God at least has a precedent of loving some, and hating others, for His own good purposes? We cannot forget that God is love, but we also can't forget harder truths about Him, as Paul wrote about:

As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

That's Romans 9: 13-15. Tough stuff, but somehow this is just as true as John 3:16 and other passages that talk about God loving the world.

4. Does "world" (kosmos) in John 3:16 truly mean everyone in the world? Or do reminders such as The Black Glove's also figure in?

5. Jesus goes on in John 3 to talk about how He did not come to condemn the whole world. However, He says, those who reject Him are already condemned. This could give us a clue that "God so loved the world" may not mean He loves every single person who is in the world the exact same way. Question: Does God love those who are "condemned already" just as much as He loves those who love His light and truth? From verses 17-19:

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.

6. What about the doctrine of "common grace"? Jesus in His famous Sermon on the Mount says that God the Father "makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust" (Matthew 5:45). Is this not also a Biblical truth that God loves people that does not require Christians to believe (or imply) that "God loves everyone exactly the same"? (I'm also reminded of how this truth could be shown in The Magician's Nephew, when Aslan loves the dumb beasts -- but blesses them in a different way by allowing them to cared for by the free, intelligent beasts to whom He has given speech.)

7. In saying only "God is love," or that Jesus was loving to people -- both very true statements! -- might we by accident forget that very often God/Christ did not "act" very loving to people? Take the above-mentioned Egyptians, or the Pharisees, or Jesus with the rich man (Mark 10). One of Jesus' worse condemnations was made not to the Pharisees, but to other "average" people -- at the end of John 8, He calls them the Devil's children and accuses them (rightly) of not believing in Him.

(It could seem risky, compiling all these verses that on their own could make God or Jesus seem unreasonably mean. I only do this because it shows another "side" -- Christians dare not only focus on, or imply to others, that Jesus loved everyone and had nothing hard to say to them.)

8. Does God change "modes" between now -- when, as it's said, He's loving everyone exactly the same -- and the future, in which He will judge the wicked and sentence them to eternal, conscious suffering for their hatred of Him? Did He once love rebel humans, and then stop loving them? Or does He even now love the people who are suffering in Hell?

9. What does Scripture say about those for whom Jesus died? Was His sacrificial death really "in place" of those people, as many passages testify? Or did He die for every person, yet they veto it applying to them?

(This could be a fine distinction, for Christians as God's people don't know either way who will and won't be saved. That's why we preach the Gospel to as many people as we can find! It's also not meant to imply that Jesus' death was not sufficient to save everyone. But does Scripture say He died to set up a "system" of salvation, or to actually save people?)

10. The popular slogan Love the sinner, hate the sin may be close to the truth that God wants us to show His love to all in different ways, and not act self-righteous (as if we somehow earned our own salvation and they haven't). But does God Himself "love the sinner, hate the sin"?

God states a reason for his pleasure in his Son: "You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness" (Hebrews 1:9). If we imagine God only loves and doesn't hate, we will think he calls upon us to only love. Yet he commands us, "Hate evil, love good" (Amos 5:15).

God's attributes of holiness, purity, and righteousness prompt him to hate evil, including some human attitudes and actions; and yes, even some people (see Deuteronomy 12:31; Proverbs 6:16-19; Jeremiah 44:4; Malachi 1:2-3). David writes, "He [God] is angry with the wicked every day" (Psalm 7:11, NLT). David also says, "You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot dwell. The arrogant cannot stand in your presence; you hate all who do wrong. You destroy those who tell lies; bloodthirsty and deceitful men the LORD abhors" (Psalm 5:4-6).

These statements make clear that our loving God won't allow the wicked to dwell in his presence. Certainly, he hates sin, but passages such as this go further by saying, "You hate all who do wrong." If we place God's love above his holiness, such statements will seem appalling. And they will seem especially jarring when we hear John, the "apostle of love," say something like, "Whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains [present tense] on him" (John 3:36).

from If God is Good; all brackets in original, but my own emphases added

These are sobering questions and truths, and I don't mean to raise such issues lightly. Nor do I mean to imply that all Christians should have the exact same views on this, or else they're not "spiritual" enough (or worse still, not Christians), or nonsense such as that.

Still, I have known some people who have only ever been taught, or think about, God is love. Then suffering and death hits them, or they somehow wake up and find all the Scripture passages in which God has asked the Israelites to wipe out their enemies. Or they may even read Romans 8 to 9, especially 9, and see the precedent that God sets with loving Jacob and hating Esau (and Paul later asks even tougher questions, in Romans 9: 22-24). And instead of remembering that God is God, and we are not, and we cannot answer back to Him, as Paul says, some people resent God for having this right and nature -- even those who admit He exists.

I know of at least one case in which a real-life evangelical person, born and raised in Christianity, somehow figured out for the first time that God is also a God of holiness and justice. This person could not understand that -- he'd somehow "missed" it -- so he rejected Christianity altogether.

In popular Christianity, I worry that many people are thinking the same way. While God is sovereign even over their false conversions, it is also up to Christians to choose to preach the whole truth about His nature.

Hey, I had a question!
I don't really know what my opinion on this is yet, so I wanted to find out what you guys thought. I was wondering, (from a Christian, Bible-believing viewpoint) does God love non-Christians? I don't mean the world in general, or all people in general. I mean an individual who is not a Christian. (I don't know if that makes any difference whether it's one person or a mass, but just in case it makes a difference, I thought I'd specify)
I was wondering because I have seen scriptures that make it sound like he does (since he sent His son to die for them), and other scriptures that sound like he doesn't (because without Jesus's blood to cover them, he can't see past their sins). I don't believe that the Bible contradicts itself or anything like that. And I believe the Bible absolutely. I was just wondering what it meant.
Plus, are there any scriptures that tells Christians to love non-Christians? I was wondering, because I've found many that say to love fellow-Christians, but I haven't found any that say to love non-believers.
I did find the one that says to "love your enemies", but what if the non-Christian isn't an enemy? What if you get along fine with them, and just have other beliefs? Does that scripture still apply?
Oh, keep in mind, I am talking about loving them in a non-romantic way.
I'm looking forward to hearing your opinions on this.

~ EJ

EJ
I have a great sermon on this subject which I think will answer most of the questions you asked above. I'll go find it and listen to it, then come back and put up a summary of it along with scripture references. In the meantime, allow me to give you a little bit of direction:

1) The scripture God used to bring me to a realization of the falsity of God's omnibenevolence: Romans 9:13.

2) If one is a committed Christian, so that Jesus is the most precious thing they treasure, then even a "nice" person with whom they get along is an enemy in at least ONE way: they have rejected and spurned the most precious thing. Therefore we pray for and love them.

However; as you say, this type of love is not "romantic". NOR is it permissive. It is committed to doing whatever is best for that person. The best thing for a person who is a non-Christian is to give them every opportunity to encounter Christ. Sometimes that means things like allowing them to suffer the consequences of their actions, like offending them with the gospel, refusing to allow them to injure and harm the weak and helpless, and breaking fellowship with them when they make it clear that they are willing to work toward compromising your standards. So sometimes "loving" them will not look like what the "world" calls "love".

It may be a day or so before I can summarize that sermon for you. I think it's up over at Sermonaudio.com, and if it is, I'll try to find it and post a link.

mm

Indeed, the question of God's love is a tricky one. If I had more real-life time available to me, I'd give some detailed commentary--perhaps my own answer to each of Dr. Ransom's ten points--but as I don't, I shall have to offer some short points:

God certainly "loves" everyone, but not necessarily in the same way for each person.

Like many of the other concepts which our human minds can only comprehend as being mutually exclusive, there certainly is the possibility that "love" and "hate" can co-exist for God. (Although, what with our culture's... um, fascination for the "love-hate" relationship, we might not see that as so contradictory anyways...)

Also, and probably most importantly, by no means are any of us, Christian or not, in any way deserving of God's love. Even if there were to be some kind of competition for "best Christian" on this Earth, the winner of that competition is still, ultimately, a sinner. A sinner whose ultimate price has been paid off, sure, but while he/she's on Earth, a sinner.

Anyways, as a little off-side, I present an amusing look at the common person's annoyance of fundies. Be sure to hover your mouse over the picture for a bit, too.

Hey, I had a question!
I don't really know what my opinion on this is yet, so I wanted to find out what you guys thought. I was wondering, (from a Christian, Bible-believing viewpoint) does God love non-Christians? I don't mean the world in general, or all people in general. I mean an individual who is not a Christian. (I don't know if that makes any difference whether it's one person or a mass, but just in case it makes a difference, I thought I'd specify)
I was wondering because I have seen scriptures that make it sound like he does (since he sent His son to die for them), and other scriptures that sound like he doesn't (because without Jesus's blood to cover them, he can't see past their sins). I don't believe that the Bible contradicts itself or anything like that. And I believe the Bible absolutely. I was just wondering what it meant.
Plus, are there any scriptures that tells Christians to love non-Christians? I was wondering, because I've found many that say to love fellow-Christians, but I haven't found any that say to love non-believers.
I did find the one that says to "love your enemies", but what if the non-Christian isn't an enemy? What if you get along fine with them, and just have other beliefs? Does that scripture still apply?
Oh, keep in mind, I am talking about loving them in a non-romantic way.
I'm looking forward to hearing your opinions on this.

~ EJ

EJ
I have a great sermon on this subject which I think will answer most of the questions you asked above. I'll go find it and listen to it, then come back and put up a summary of it along with scripture references. In the meantime, allow me to give you a little bit of direction:

1) The scripture God used to bring me to a realization of the falsity of God's omnibenevolence: Romans 9:13.

2) If one is a committed Christian, so that Jesus is the most precious thing they treasure, then even a "nice" person with whom they get along is an enemy in at least ONE way: they have rejected and spurned the most precious thing. Therefore we pray for and love them.

However; as you say, this type of love is not "romantic". NOR is it permissive. It is committed to doing whatever is best for that person. The best thing for a person who is a non-Christian is to give them every opportunity to encounter Christ. Sometimes that means things like allowing them to suffer the consequences of their actions, like offending them with the gospel, refusing to allow them to injure and harm the weak and helpless, and breaking fellowship with them when they make it clear that they are willing to work toward compromising your standards. So sometimes "loving" them will not look like what the "world" calls "love".

It may be a day or so before I can summarize that sermon for you. I think it's up over at Sermonaudio.com, and if it is, I'll try to find it and post a link.

mm

Well, I have returned defeated. I don't know what sermon I am thinking of, but it is not the sermon I thought it was. I will have to do some more research.

mm
But really, Dr. R gave a great rundown above.

Among most Christians, the default practice is to say (as some have said here!) that "God loves everyone."

God certainly "loves" everyone, but not necessarily in the same way for each person.

Really? What about the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, and other similar monsters, some of whom may still be living? How could God show love to such as these? Even if like Torquemada of the Spanish Inquisition they profess Christianity, and commit their wrongdoing in the name of Christianity? Or Islam? Or whichever credo they espouse? Does God really love these sorts of people? Oh by the way, stardf29, I really liked that link you gave. I do agree that "Fundies" and atheists can be equally annoying. The question is, I still need to figure out why?

One very big topic is not included in the above list: the previous discussion about eugenics. That kind of topic will not be allowed.

In the past NarniaWeb has had similar policies about the promotion of human slavery. The same is true for this viewpoint. NarniaWeb members have many different views and that is fine. We love discussion about them. But the moderator staff will not allow abject evil to be promoted.

This is not just something controversial or interesting to think or talk about, or write about online or on paper. Eugenics, the idea of strengthening the human race by killing certain people or preventing others from reproducing, is abject evil.

So are related implications, such as disallowing mentally disabled people to live.

Fair point. And I also concur with Gandalf's Beard's objections to this topic in his post, which ended the last discussion. Besides, mental illness in general, not only mental disability, is surely more a matter of 'There but for the grace of God go I'. There is a biological basis to some forms of mental illness, and it isn't clear how accidents or stressful situations play a part, as far as I know. Not everyone who has ever had a breakdown is someone who has indulged in drugs etc, or lived a horrible life.

As an aside, as a member of the dreaded "Baby Boomer" generation, I have a thing about the many pundits who didn't like "baby boomers" because after WW2 they were simply too numerous in birth, in childhood (where were the schools?), in marriage (how dare they want to reproduce, let alone to the extent their parents did?), in the workforce (they are taking all the jobs in a tight labour market) or in old age (how are we going to afford to keep all these oldies in retirement?).

Haven't you noticed that those who want others to stop reproducing, working, retiring etc, have no difficulty with wanting to live the life of Riley, themselves? No matter what the cost to the environment etc? Or is everyone I've met in my life a reader of Thomas Hobbes?

I've been away due to heavy involvement with a mission team this week, and I want to point something out that we discussed in our prayer time yesterday. It has to do with the Prodigal Son. Wagga, you ask about how God loves the mosters we often refer to in history. Well, does God love us based on performance? If that were the case, not a single one of us would have good standing. In God's eyes, all of us are guilty of murder, adultery, theft, idolotry, covetness, lying, and breakers of all 10 Commandments. The son in the Prodigal Son story based his return on his performance and reason. The Father based the son's return on his identity as a son. When we come under the Blood Covenant of Christ, we are adopted into God's family and are considered 'sons'. And that identity is what gives us his love.

There is something else. Every one of us have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. And the wages of sin is death. The is one and ONLY one thing that any of us truly deserve. And that is death. EVERYTHING and ANYTHING else is a gift of God that we do not deserve. We cannot earn life because we sinned, so anything that comes with the package of life, such as a job, a family, income, the things we do, is a gift of God. So we need to understand that God does not work on the merits of our performance and what we do. He looks at the heart and our true identity.

God loves everyone because we are His.
However, God can love certain people more than others in a different way-- those who are good to Him deserve more of His love, don't you think?
Part of God's love is just a given, another part can be- not be earned, exactly- but we can become worthy of it.

Darn. I'm not expressing myself very well. Does anyone understand what I'm trying to say?

I'm not sure I'm tracking well, Lucy P. I don't think you were meaning to imply that God's love is based on whether we just be really, really good, right?

"We" are His -- I'd agree, if you're referring to His people.

However, some people are not His people. We might safely assume, for example, that the villains wagga listed up there are not His people. Anyone could be as bad as they are -- and from God's perspective, we are! -- but there's no evidence God redeemed any of those villains before they died. For true Christians, there is evidence God has saved them.

The part about we can become worthy of receiving God's love doesn't match with what the Bible says. "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," Romans 3:23 says. I'm guessing you know that verse.

Is it possible some of that we-can-earn-God belief has sneaked in? We are humans and sinful, so that can happen to the "best" of us.

Maybe my post up there can help. It's long, but I hope its wording is clear! Even better, I hope it points to the Bible as the only real way we can know whether God loves some, and not others, or whether He has the right to "discriminate" in His love. And with the fact that all of us not only fall far short of being worthy of God's love, but don't deserve His glory, how does the Bible say people are saved and loved by God?

Right, Dr.
I think what I mean to say is that God loves us unconditionally. Of course he loves us more the better we are as people (it wouldn't make sense if he didn't) but God even loves the souls in hell. God doesn't hate anybody. He hates their sins, of course, but He loves everyone. We couldn't ever repay His love, but we should try by obeying His commandments and giving our imperfect, human love back.
There. I think I've said it better.