Tesseract, I also extend you a warm welcome. I personally am on a search for Truth. Anyone on that same search I consider a fellow traveler.

I have discovered that being on a search for Truth requires a great deal of humility. I find I must often admit that I was wrong and change my thinking and actions accordingly. An interesting exercise, that.

May I begin the conversation? Please understand that I offer this question in the friendliest and sincerest of attitudes.

Why would you want to talk about or answer questions concerning a Being in Whom you do not believe?

I am always quite puzzled by this willingness of atheists to even discuss what they claim to consider a myth or fantasy.

See...let me give an example. I do not believe in, oh, say, banshees. And because of this I hardly ever even think about banshees. I don't think about them, talk about them, read about them, or even wonder about them--well, perhaps except in the silliest of moods when I am fey myself.

And I certainly do not and have not spent any time thinking carefully through all the evidence for banshees and forming my own theories about banshees and their non-existence. I don't invite people to ask questions about my beliefs concerning banshees, nor do I offer to debate others about banshees. I would literally laugh out loud at someone who did so.

If there really is no such thing as a banshee, and I don't believe that there is, then I spend NO TIME or EFFORT in considering banshees. They simply don't cross my mind.

I might indeed mock someone if I found out that they believed in banshees. But I wouldn't spend any time constructing arguments against banshees, nor would I choose to spend discretionary time with people who believed in banshees. And I wouldn't be angry about banshees...I couldn't possibly be angry. They don't exist.

So--do you get where I'm coming from?

Many, many atheists claim to be--well--AY-theists. And they spend A LOT of time thinking about being atheist, writing about being atheist, and debating, mocking, and constructing arguments against theism.

I just don't get that.

Perhaps you could explain it?

Thanks in advance

mm

Though, I must say, if you're not OPEN to seeking truth or listening to thoughts, then being here won't be much use to either you or me. It'd basically be a big argument and no one would come out of it any better, except for perhaps the winner coming out smug; and who needs that?

I completely agree, sweeetlilgurlie. I have seen too many online debates where both parties are utterly convinced that they are right, and all that results is a lot of hurt feelings. I am very open to listening to thoughts. The reason humans know so much is because scientists have been willing to admit that they are wrong about things when the evidence points in a new direction that is closer to the truth. Without acknowledging new evidence/viewpoints/findings, we can never learn anything.

If you can prove something I say wrong, that's wonderful. I'll have learned something.

That being said, I hope the Christians in here can have the same mindset. Many Christians that I talk with "know" that God is real, so they cannot comprehend a hypothetical situation where God cannot exist.

I have discovered that being on a search for Truth requires a great deal of humility. I find I must often admit that I was wrong and change my thinking and actions accordingly. An interesting exercise, that.

Good to know that we feel the same way about this.

I am always quite puzzled by this willingness of atheists to even discuss what they claim to consider a myth or fantasy.

See...let me give an example. I do not believe in, oh, say, banshees. And because of this I hardly ever even think about banshees. I don't think about them, talk about them, read about them, or even wonder about them...

If there really is no such thing as a banshee, and I don't believe that there is, then I spend NO TIME or EFFORT in considering banshees. They simply don't cross my mind.

So--do you get where I'm coming from?

I get where you're coming from. You're coming from a world where most everybody agrees with you.

Try imagining this scenario...

You, of course, don't believe in banshees. But both of your parents do. Before every meal, when you were a child, they offered a prayer up to the banshees. They read from the book of the banshees to you when you were a wee lad. And they taught all your other brothers and sisters that banshees created everything, and that they should have faith in the banshees, trust the banshees in times of need, etc. Your entire family went to a shrine of the banshees every week. You spent a great deal of your Sundays worshipping banshees.

But it's more than that. Most of your extended family believes in banshees, too. So do many of your friends. In fact, most of your town believes in banshees. There are literally dozens of banshee shrines there.

But it's more than that. All of your money says, "In Banshees we Trust." Your Pledge of Allegiance to your Country says. "One Nation, Under Banshees." Most of the political leaders in your country publicly believe in banshees. It is almost impossible for someone to be elected as President of the United States if they don't believe in banshees, because the banshee-believer population considers belief in banshees to be very important and many will not vote for someone who does not believe in banshees.

Sounds kind of terrifying, doesn't it? I couldn't ignore Christians if I tried.

I was raised in a Christian environment, so I'm different than some atheists in that regards. I know a lot about Christianity. I have read a lot of Christian literature, including most of the bible. I'm hoping that will help me in this discussion. I know where the Christians are coming from. But I don't know if you know where the atheists are coming from, and I like the opportunity to clear up any misconceptions or misunderstandings.

I'm sorry if this is rude or anything, but I couldn't help laughing when you talked about the shrine of the banshees. But I understand your elaboration, and how it fits.

So, where ARE you coming from? What's made you believe there isn't any God? I'm genuinely curious, and I won't shoot you down for answering honestly. I very firmly believe in God, and believe that it's not just because I was raised Catholic. I've decided to make the faith my own and even go beyond and above the faith of those who taught me about it.

For you, was it that you decided that the faith was not your own and you chose atheism instead?

Funny you should choose banshees, Mother-Music. Just yesterday I watched the Gargoyles episode which featured one of those legendary creatures. [/random]

You make an excellent point, Tesseract, one which may not be immediately obvious to the Christians here precisely because Western culture, in general, is so steeped in the Judeo-Christian tradition.

Each of us has taken a different journey to where we are today (my own involved evolution and its implications on faith - not to bring up evolution again! ), and, like sweeet, I'd be fascinated to learn a little more about your own, if you'd like to share it with us.

I am always quite puzzled by this willingness of atheists to even discuss what they claim to consider a myth or fantasy.

See...let me give an example. I do not believe in, oh, say, banshees. And because of this I hardly ever even think about banshees. I don't think about them, talk about them, read about them, or even wonder about them--well, perhaps except in the silliest of moods when I am fey myself.

And I certainly do not and have not spent any time thinking carefully through all the evidence for banshees and forming my own theories about banshees and their non-existence. I don't invite people to ask questions about my beliefs concerning banshees, nor do I offer to debate others about banshees. I would literally laugh out loud at someone who did so.

If there really is no such thing as a banshee, and I don't believe that there is, then I spend NO TIME or EFFORT in considering banshees. They simply don't cross my mind.

I might indeed mock someone if I found out that they believed in banshees. But I wouldn't spend any time constructing arguments against banshees, nor would I choose to spend discretionary time with people who believed in banshees. And I wouldn't be angry about banshees...I couldn't possibly be angry. They don't exist.

So--do you get where I'm coming from?

Many, many atheists claim to be--well--AY-theists. And they spend A LOT of time thinking about being atheist, writing about being atheist, and debating, mocking, and constructing arguments against theism.

I just don't get that.

Perhaps you could explain it?

Thanks in advance

mm

I think the difference between this example and Christianity itself is the power balance in play. I imagine this is more relevant in the US, but if you consider Christianity to be baseless then it holding influence over laws, government and how large section of society behaves seems far more relevant to you as a person, than if people just believed in banshees but didn't show any outward influence.

If you can prove something I say wrong, that's wonderful. I'll have learned something.

The big problem with this line of thinking is that all of the "proof" for God comes from the Bible, and comes from moralities in which atheists don't typically believe. Therefore, every atheist I've ever met seems to be of the mindset "You can't prove God, so He doesn't exist," which is rather foolish. Science has yet to prove that magnetism exists. Pinning one's hope on science, is the exact same thing as Christianity, in that, in the end, it boils down to hanging your particular worldview on a system of beliefs.

That being said, I hope the Christians in here can have the same mindset. Many Christians that I talk with "know" that God is real, so they cannot comprehend a hypothetical situation where God cannot exist.

And is the opposite always true? Because, if I'm being honest, most atheists I've met (with a few exceptions of course) are the same way. They get all snippety when dealing in hypothetical situations in which God does exist. . .

I was raised in a Christian environment, so I'm different than some atheists in that regards. I know a lot about Christianity. I have read a lot of Christian literature, including most of the bible. I'm hoping that will help me in this discussion. I know where the Christians are coming from. But I don't know if you know where the atheists are coming from, and I like the opportunity to clear up any misconceptions or misunderstandings.

I continue Sweeet's question. What is your understanding? Where are you coming from? Is this a place where you think you can talk about atheism in a neutral setting? "Informing" those of us who you deem uninformed? Because to be honest, that sounds really preachy. It sounds as if you think that your form of atheism is the form of atheism, and that it is representative of all atheists. So. . . what do you hope to gain from this thread?

And the whole "I'm oppressed because I'm in a minority belief system," gets really old, really fast. Because regardless of what people say, America is NOT a Christian nation any more. We like to call ourselves Christian, but actions speak louder than words. Christian values and Christian Morals, and Christian Beliefs have been in the minority for a good deal of time.

If you can prove something I say wrong, that's wonderful. I'll have learned something.

The big problem with this line of thinking is that all of the "proof" for God comes from the Bible, and comes from moralities in which atheists don't typically believe. Therefore, every atheist I've ever met seems to be of the mindset "You can't prove God, so He doesn't exist," which is rather foolish. Science has yet to prove that magnetism exists. Pinning one's hope on science, is the exact same thing as Christianity, in that, in the end, it boils down to hanging your particular worldview on a system of beliefs.

That's the thing I've always been confused about, a lot of atheists I know, (not all) say they don't believe in things they can't see with there own eyes, or hear with their own ears... yet they believe in science. Now granted most Christian's conceptions of science and theories, hyptheses, and such are fatally flawed... so I'm not using the "It's just a theory" argument, but so much of science is based on stuff that by what I understand of the atheist definition we haven't proven yet... Such as Digs example on magnestism, or the atomic theory.... most people believe this is true, what I don't understand is... "If not God, then why science?" Perhaps you can help me out here Tesseract... this has had my mind boggled for a while...

Here is another aspect of science that not many people think about it. Science requires just as much faith as Christianity or anything else, if not more. We try to prove things 'scientifically' but we are putting a lot of faith that the laws that we have observed actually do hold true all the time. Just using dating for an example, specifically Carbon-14. It understandable where scientists get the dates based on the laboratory observed rate of decay of Carbon-14. But there is more to it than what labs can reveal. Did you know that a catastrophic event can greatly alter the rate of decay temporarily? My point here is not to bring back up the Old-Earth/Young Earth debate, but to simply show that science itself is not the ultimate authority that we can rely on. It has proven to be false from time to time and we often find anomalies that simply cannot be explained by scientific means.

I am also assuming you are sitting down on a chair at your computer. Some people lie on a bed or on the floor with their laptop but hear me out. Did you realize that you are exercising faith just by sitting down on a chair? You assume that it will hold up for you. "But it has held for me every time before, so I can assume that it will hold true this time," is a common response to this argument. But you don't know if someone came through and loosened some screws in that chair from when you sat down last. Are you going to check that everything is fine before you sit down in any chair every time? I don't think so. The same thing applies to science. By induction, we learn it hold true in some cases, so we assume it hold true in all cases. We don't actually spend the time to prove it each time.

Faith is prevalent in our everyday lives far more than we realize. We take things for granted and unwittingly we have faith that those things will be there when we want them. And from a scientific point of view, how do we know that the very forces that hold the atoms together are going to hold for x-years down the road? As with the Carbon-14, a catastrophic event can change things up from what we count on. My point is that while we know what forces are there that hold things together, we don't truly understand how these forces work or if those forces will one day cease working the way we understand them. From a Christian perspective, we believe God is who truly holds the universe together. But outside of that, we are dealing with a faith that they will hold on their own but can't really guarantee it will stay that way. We just don't know what will really happen. Science is imperfect in that way and others.

I'd say a little more, but I have to go to class.

'Allo, Tesseract! (Reading stiffly from three-by-five cards) "I shake you warmly by the hand." (Offers hand for stiff shake) And you -- you're just happy to be here, aren't ya?

Well, let me add my own welcome, though you're not the first atheist or professing-former-Christian to join the Christianity discussions. These have a long history, with plenty of debates and even civil controversy all throughout. In fact, some people have discovered things they never knew about the Bible, even after being lifelong Christians. My favorite is the truth about where the Bible says Christians are really going to spend eternity. Lifelong Christians have missed that one.

So my conclusion: even those who've grown up among professing (or real) Christians may miss parts of the Bible, and so have the point of God-belief or Christianity all wrong.

Here's why I'll ask you a few questions, just for fun, not about atheism misunderstandings but about what you believe Christianity claims:

1. (Repeated) Where, exactly, does the Bible say those who love Jesus Christ will spend eternity?

2. What is the main, overarching, reason-above-all-other-reasons, according to the Bible, that God does everything He does?

3. Where did Cain (Genesis 4) get his wife? (Had to ask! )

4. How come Jesus opposed the Pharisees? Was it because they were very strict about God's Law and Jesus came to show a better way?

5. What's the Big Story of the Bible -- the metanarrative?

6. Do you see the Bible more as Life's Answer Book or Life's Little Instruction Manual, or do all its books/accounts have a greater purpose?

Not like I have the whole Bible all figured out, but I couldn't have given straight answers to almost all these questions (except no. 3) as recently as five years ago. One thing about real Christians, hoping to love their Creator/Savior more as the years go by: they grow in truth and love. Through these discussions, God has helped me grow immensely — moving from my very evangelical instinct to use the Bible primarily as a Defensive Weapon against Bad Guys, to fight Causes, but to see more of the awe-inspiring, joy-bringing God Who created and governs the universe.

... And here I'm sure you'll also find much to keep you busy. If so, I say that's a good thing. It will keep you and other nasty atheists off the streets, where you'd otherwise be throwing rocks, yelling, living without any morality whatsoever, claiming to have been abducted by UFOs, etc. ... Oh wait. All atheists aren't like that? Well, strike me pink!

The big problem with this line of thinking is that all of the "proof" for God comes from the Bible, and comes from moralities in which atheists don't typically believe.

I would say that while the "proof" per say, of God comes from the Bible, you can draw conclusions that He must exist from philosophy, nature, and logic. Just wanted to address that point. While committing yourself to believe in God is a matter of faith, He doesn't just leave you hanging and say, "You must make this impossibly huge jump with no help from logic or other sources whatever!"

Tesseract said

I get where you're coming from. You're coming from a world where most everybody agrees with you.

Not exactly. Actually, I happen to live surrounded by people who claim to believe certain things but whose actions belie that: actually a much scarier proposition.

I anticipated the answer that you gave. I find it extremely intriguing that there are so many people who believe that our environment and culture are able to influence us beyond the bounds of logic. Yet here is Tesseract, and his environment and culture have failed to influence him...

Many atheists seem to believe that they, of all the many millions of people in the world, have managed to avoid that incredible influence, and have risen above the primordial slime of belief in a Higher Power, having crawled by the help of their intelligence up onto the shores of self-actualization.

But I have another thought. Romans 1:18-20 states that all men know there is a God, but all have wickedly suppressed that knowledge within themselves. If true, what does that do to the analogy stated above, but turn it on it's head?

Just my thoughts...

And just for the record, I'd like to state clearly that I am a presuppositionalist. I believe that everyone comes to the table with presuppositions, and that it is impossible to be entirely objective. So "proof" is a difficult thing at which to arrive. Science is rife with presuppositions, and only the most foolish scientists will deny it.

Carry on, friends! I find this stimulating...

mm

Tesseract, I want to better understand your beliefs, so as to help us all interact with you. It's hard for anyone in any situation to communicate with eachother if we don't all know where the other people are coming from.

So to start off, what has caused you to believe that there is no/probably is no God? Is there anything in the world or elsewhere that you feel makes God's existence less likely? And if so, what is it?

If we find out this, we might better understand where you're coming from. And then we will have a better understanding of the questions you have, and what questions we should ask you, as well.

~Riella

Wow, tons of responses. I'll reply to as many as I can before I have to leave.

Therefore, every atheist I've ever met seems to be of the mindset "You can't prove God, so He doesn't exist," which is rather foolish.

That is not entirely foolish, however I will agree that it is still not a complete argument. It is, by the way, not my mindset. (However, many Christians that I know of seem to think that proving God exists is a big deal.)

I currently do not believe that the Christian God exists because the Christian God seems to be very self-contradictory. But I'll get into that later.

"Science cannot prove that magnetism exists." What would be the point of that? As another example, mathematicians do not need to prove that 2+2 exists because it is a postulate, generally accepted by everybody as being fact.

And as for not believing in something because it cannot be proven, I think that it's perfectly acceptable to do so in many situations. I'm not going to believe in banshees until they can be proved to exist.

And is the opposite always true? Because, if I'm being honest, most atheists I've met (with a few exceptions of course) are the same way. They get all snippety when dealing in hypothetical situations in which God does exist. . .

I apologize for generalizing. I wasn't sure how many people in here would be the few exceptions...

It sounds as if you think that your form of atheism is the form of atheism, and that it is representative of all atheists.

I phrased my second post rather poorly, I will admit. My original intention was to say "an atheist's perspective," not "the atheist's perspective".

And the whole "I'm oppressed because I'm in a minority belief system," gets really old, really fast. Because regardless of what people say, America is NOT a Christian nation any more.

The response I gave was provoked by somebody saying, "I don't get why Atheists would bother with Christians! Why can't you all just ignore us!" Which I found to be slightly ridiculous. And it also gets really old, really fast too. Regardless of people's actions, it is still not as culturally acceptable to be Christian than atheist.

what I don't understand is... "If not God, then why science?" Perhaps you can help me out here Tesseract... this has had my mind boggled for a while...

That's a perfectly understandable question. Now of course I can't answer for all atheists (thank you DiGoRyKiRkE), but here is my view of the matter.

I am in the middle of reading Stephen Hawking's book, "The Universe in a Nutshell." The book discusses theoretical physics in the 20th century. Many aspects of theoretical physics seem incredibly strange, and look as though they require more faith than a Christian's faith in God. One thing I am able to see, though, is that our view of the inner workings of the universe is far closer to the truth than it was a century ago.

However, I put my trust in science because science is constantly changing, being revised, and becoming more correct. Most religious beliefs seem, well, pretty absolute. Through out history, the bible hasn't changed much. There is of course the Apocrypha, and the book of Mormon (I hope nobody will take offense at the grouping of those together), but the vast majority is still the same.

We try to prove things 'scientifically' but we are putting a lot of faith that the laws that we have observed actually do hold true all the time. Just using dating for an example, specifically Carbon-14. It understandable where scientists get the dates based on the laboratory observed rate of decay of Carbon-14. But there is more to it than what labs can reveal. Did you know that a catastrophic event can greatly alter the rate of decay temporarily?

I will admit that I did not know that, but "catastrophic event" is pretty vague. I quickly researched the topic, and the laboratory experiments involved with testing this used explosives to "shock" the rock sample repeatedly. If the catastrophic event is supposed to be Noah's Flood, I doubt that the flood would have enough widespread energy to affect so many rocks around the world. The Bible says that it rained for 40 days and 40 nights, so the water levels wouldn't be rising so fast as to pulverize the rocks.

My point here is not to bring back up the Old-Earth/Young Earth debate, but to simply show that science itself is not the ultimate authority that we can rely on. It has proven to be false from time to time and we often find anomalies that simply cannot be explained by scientific means.

Usually when science is proven false, it is because a new scientific discovery that is correct or more correct has come along to replace it.

And I am perfectly fine with knowing that science cannot answer every question. I can accept that there are some things that we just don't know, or don't know yet. I don't think that's a compelling reason to fill the informational void with God/Allah/Shiva.

Faith is prevalent in our everyday lives far more than we realize.

I am not against faith altogether! I choose to put faith in science because science is progressing, while religion has sometimes hindered scientific development.

(Progresses down the page to the Dr. Elwin Ransom's post.) 'Allo, Doctor! (Accepts handshake)

1. (Repeated) Where, exactly, does the Bible say those who love Jesus Christ will spend eternity? Very interesting question. There are many bible verses that discuss where people go after they die. I don't have time right now to find them all and type up an analysis, but I think that it can be implied that those who love Jesus Christ will go to heaven. One example from the top of my head...Luke 23:43, where Jesus says to the convict on the cross, "today you will be with Me in Paradise."

2. What is the main, overarching, reason-above-all-other-reasons, according to the Bible, that God does everything He does?I don't know of any reason given as to why God created the universe in the first place. (He got lonely? ) I tried thinking of some reasons, but realized that they don't answer your question because they are too specific. Right now, I would have to say that the reason God did everything is because he thought that his creation was good. (Genesis)

3. Where did Cain (Genesis 4) get his wife? (Had to ask! ) Is that supposed to be a trick question? If there is an answer to that question, I can't find it in Genesis 4.

4. How come Jesus opposed the Pharisees? Was it because they were very strict about God's Law and Jesus came to show a better way? Jesus was opposed to the Pharisees because they were corrupt and arrogant. They saw themselves as above everybody else because they (very publicly) followed all of God's laws. I saw Jesus's disobedience to the traditional Jewish laws as not a criticism of the laws themselves but a mocking of the Pharisees who took the law so seriously and in such the wrong way. Matthew 5:17, Jesus said, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

5. What's the Big Story of the Bible -- the metanarrative?The big story of the Bible is the tale of how God created a bunch of humans, let them abandon him, and then spent the next few thousand years trying to win them back to his side.

I would be interested to know what your answers to these questions are as well.

I have to leave now. I will respond to the remainder of the posts and explain "where I'm coming from" as soon as I have another opportunity.

However, I put my trust in science because science is constantly changing, being revised, and becoming more correct. Most religious beliefs seem, well, pretty absolute. Through out history, the bible hasn't changed much. There is of course the Apocrypha, and the book of Mormon (I hope nobody will take offense at the grouping of those together), but the vast majority is still the same

As a scientist, I would definitely question the validity of this argument. Science really hasn't changed all that much within the past fifty years or so, it only gets more advanced. The core principals of science (V=IR, C3H8 + 5O2 yields 3CO2 + 4H2O, E=MC2 [Oh how I wish one could do superscripts and subscripts on this forum ]) have not changed. According to "science" these principals have always existed, will always exist, therefore are just as "infinite" as the Christian God.

That being said, the human response to these scientific advances have indeed changed. People are learning more all the time about how and why things work the way that they do, but they do so by looking at these unchanging laws of Science. Therefore, for science as you define it to work properly, it too must be unchangeable.

All of this aside, why does it somehow make Christianity less valid, due to it's immutability? Does the ability to change somehow add merit to a system? Logically, I'd have to argue the opposite. In fact, if, as Christian's believe, God is perfect, then why would it be advantageous for Him to change?

If the catastrophic event is supposed to be Noah's Flood, I doubt that the flood would have enough widespread energy to affect so many rocks around the world. The Bible says that it rained for 40 days and 40 nights, so the water levels wouldn't be rising so fast as to pulverize the rocks.

Yes, but the Bible also says that the fountains of the deep were broken open. Sure water was coming down from up above, but it was also coming up from down below (like a huge geyser).

When it comes to geology I must admit I know close to nothing, however, the mere fact that fossils exist proves that there was a worldwide flood at some point or other. When an animal dies, it rots away rather quickly. Within a month, it will likely be reduced to a mere skeleton. Very, very, very rarely (as in, probably 1/10,000,000 deaths if not more than that) a bird might drop out of the sky, and land in a pile of mud that just happens to be perfectly suited to fossil formation. Even then, however, the huge amounts of fossils that have been found, and the vast "fossil beds" where dozens of different species can be observed at the same time, all point to a catastrophic flood, where sediment was bursting out over the entire surface of the earth, burying all life forms at one time. This may be tangential, but it is further evidence for the flood of the Bible.

I choose to put faith in science because science is progressing, while religion has sometimes hindered scientific development.

Tell that to great scientists like Isaac Newton, Galileo, Albert Einstein, Joseph Priestly, etc. . . . Their aim was primarily scientific, and yet all of them fervently believed in God. One of Satan's great accomplishments over the past fifty years is to teach us this very claim of yours, that "Religion is static, it's cold and frozen, and cannot yield any scientific discovery. It hinders growth, it sterilizes ideologies, and prevents knowledge." This is a lie from the pit of hell itself. True religion, true science, true Christianity: all of these merely point towards the truth of the Creator, and the beauty of His creation.

Wow, are we back to science v. theology again so soon? You know it's always so interesting to me that a lot of atheists seem to immediately assume that all Christians must either hate science altogether, that they are ignorant to scientific fact in general, or that religion contradicts science (or vice versa). Fortunately, none of the above are true. In fact, Christians like myself and the good Dr. frequently use science to argue the existence of an all powerful creator. They work quite harmoniously together, actually, it's people that throw wrenches into well oiled machines most of the time. Speaking in general here, just a thought.