Unless all these analogies are way off beam, I think they point to a relationship which is active and personal. So I don’t think that believing in God when you have never had any sense that your belief is real indicates a stronger faith; I think it means something is wrong.

What I was talking about has nothing to do with whether one's relationship with God is active and personal. I was talking about 1.) witnessing miracles (this is the part I was specifically talking about when I said perhaps only the weak experience it), and 2.) "feeling God's presence", which is all too often a creation of the imagination of those who claim to experience it on a regular basis. Our relationship with God doesn't depend on feelings, nor does it need miracles to be genuine. And just because you don't get "spiritual feelings" or witness miracles, that doesn't mean your belief is without proof. There is plenty of proof of God's existence in His own creation, as well as in things that have happened throughout history.

Note: The following does not necessarily contain my view on the subject but someone brought it up on another forum.

Basically god is not obeying the golden rule:

If you were destined to hell (traditionally defined as a place of everlasting torment), would you prefer to not exist at all? I think most of us would not want to exist if that was the outcome. If you had the choice of creating somebody who could only be created as destined to go to hell, would you create that person? I doubt you would.

Does God not have empathy? Creating people who can only go to hell is a violation of "do others has you would have them do unto you."

Who says God is under the Golden Rule? The Golden Rule exists to help people better get along with their friends and acquaintances. Are judges under the Golden Rule? Are they not allowed to put people in jail, because they wouldn't want to be sent to jail themselves? Must they treat criminals the way they themselves want to be treated? God is also a judge. When He sentences the wicked, His goal is to punish their wrongdoing; not give them what they want.

~Riella

Note: The following is what i think.

well the golden rule is:a basic principle which should always be followed to ensure success in general or in a particular activity. The rule states One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself.

Judges may still follow the rule in a sense.They may think if I had done the wrong thing committed a crime this is how I would like to be treated. I would deserve to be put in jail for however many years.God could work in the same way but I think the person I was quoting was leaning towards not those who have done something wrong but those who haven't and end up with terrible things happen to them. One may argue that this is mans doing but I thought god had control?. He created the world after all(not that I think he did).

What I was talking about has nothing to do with whether one's relationship with God is active and personal. I was talking about 1.) witnessing miracles (this is the part I was specifically talking about when I said perhaps only the weak experience it), and 2.) "feeling God's presence", which is all too often a creation of the imagination of those who claim to experience it on a regular basis.

Thanks for clarifying; I think I'd misinterpreted what you'd said. I agree about those who claim "to feel God's presence" on a regular basis may be fooled by their own feelings and imaginations. I think one reason for this is misleading teaching in churches, particularly evangelical ones that put a lot of emphasis on this "personal relationship with God". They say that once you've gone through a conversion experience (which they say you must do in order to become a "real" Christian), then this relationship will automatically follow. So young Christians assume that any "spiritual-sounding" thought that comes into their heads must be God's leading, especially if it happens in a lively Christian gathering. It could equally be suggestion from other people, or their own subconscious desire. I have known people who have used "God's told me this" to deliberately manipulate others.

But still, I find (and I don't think I'm alone in this) that I have no sense of God's presence whatsoever, and I don't think that's healthy. I don't think it indicates I have a strong faith; quite the opposite.

Whether or not you regularly feel a sense of God's strong presence, as has been claimed, it still pays to pray, to read the Bible or at least to meditate. Whilst trying to survive some of my worst asthma attacks, I found it useful to read anything at all, including the Bible, if only to take my mind off how horribly breathless I felt. Thus I ended up rather better informed than I might have been.

In other times of stress it is relaxing to take time out to pray to God, explaining all your troubles, in a way you might not even be able to do to a counsellor, let alone a priest. At the very least I find I calm down, think a little more clearly, maybe a little more fairly, definitely acknowledging what I might have done wrong, myself, and in doing so, I might find more satisfactory and useful solutions to the problems I am worried about. I hope that makes sense? I don't know if that makes me closer to God than what others might experience, but I hope it helps.

Judges may still follow the rule in a sense.They may think if I had done the wrong thing committed a crime this is how I would like to be treated. I would deserve to be put in jail for however many years.God could work in the same way but I think the person I was quoting was leaning towards not those who have done something wrong but those who haven't and end up with terrible things happen to them. One may argue that this is mans doing but I thought god had control?. He created the world after all(not that I think he did).

Maybe our Australian judges might think that way, but Australian law is not necessarily what is practised elsewhere. We don't have the death penalty, for example. And even in Australia, well, NSW, at any rate, judges can be under pressure from Parliament, the press and public opinion, even the police, who get frustrated that judges let off thugs and violent crimes far too lightly. Not to mention that we have had instances of judges that have committed crimes themselves, even if these misdeeds have been as relatively trivial as failing to acknowledge & pay up on a speeding fine. Of course the rules about lawbreaking are much stricter for judges and barristers, one would expect.

What about the judges in Nazi Germany? Did they think about how they would like or how they would expect to be treated if they were the person on trial? As in many other instances, terms like show trials, kangaroo courts, or star chambers come to mind, where justice was not served at all. And where it is difficult to see the judges even regarded the accused as fellow human beings.

And that is the point of the story of Adam and Eve. In eating the forbidden fruit of the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil, they disobeyed instructions, and so set themselves up as in competition to God, Himself. Why then would people blame God for things they do themselves, to themselves, and to each other?

I know horrible things happen to people who do not deserve them. The newspapers are full of these. Some of these horrible things are due to natural causes. But when Australia is over a billion in debt, just because of the houses lost through storms and bushfires, should we blame God for people running around lighting fires when they shouldn't? For the hot weather that may be due to human over-consumption of the world's resources? For the 2011 flood in Queensland due to problems with one of Brisbane's storage dams? Or for atmospheric storms which may be the Earth's way of cleansing, replenishing and protecting itself?

We are all familiar with C.S.Lewis, due to the Narnia books. But C.S.Lewis, writing through WW2, had a lot to say about pain, God's control in such circumstances, and man's responsibility in the matter. I'd like to revisit some of his works. And I'd like to revisit a film starring Billy Connolly called The man who sued God, a rather humorous way of establishing what the insurance companies describe as an "Act of God" to avoid paying up to affected people.

Very well said Wagga. Unfortunatly it's late, and I do not have my Bible concordance on hand, but I am certain that there is a reference about people in authority being placed there to exact judgment by God. I know that rulers have abused this, claiming to rule be divine right, there fore answerable only to God. But what they, and those who use their misdeeds forget, is that these people are still personally responsible for their misdeeds.

The original discussion wasn't about judges. It is assumed that not everyone will followen the golden rule but shouldn't the creater of this world at least follow it?. Why create that person if that person will go to hell? I believe the christian god can tell the future right?

But will that person go to hell? Is anyone predestined to go to hell? I don't believe so. That is also not what the Bible says. It only says that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. Nobody comes to the Father, except by him. There is a way. By repenting of one's sins, accepting that Christ died to save repenting sinners, and with Christ's guidance, trying to make amends and to do better. But otherwise, as far as I can see, it is free choice whether you or I accept that or not.

What your argument boils down to is predestination against free will. We've seen plenty of examples in the last century or so of how people behave if not allowed any say in what happens to them, what their choices might be when faced with a lack of choice, and why people cannot be coerced into doing anything at all for very long without objecting or even rioting. Even obeying a directive to keep their sticky hands to themselves about one particular tree, as in the story of Adam and Eve ended up in their helping themselves to forbidden fruit.

Getting back to the golden rule, I thought that God, having created the world, and rested on the seventh day, made sure that everyone else also got a chance to rest on the seventh day, through the Ten Commandments. And the Ten Commandments as summarised by Jesus Christ say to love God with all one's heart, all one's strength, to worship him and give him thanks for His great goodness. And we are also instructed to love our neighbours as ourselves. Golden rule anyone? And if you don't think that God doesn't obey that rule, then consider this. God may forgive us if we seek forgiveness, but do other humans forgive us or do we forgive God, Himself?

Yes, I can agree that God may see into the future. And thus God knows that people who take certain courses of action are setting themselves up for a hiding to nothing. That if they continue to steal they will get caught eventually. Or if they hit people minding their own business, it is only a matter of time before there is a fatality, an outcry and a demand for legal action which will put offenders in gaol.

To say that people are born to go to hell is a very negative way of saying that we are doomed to bad behaviour, bad choices and have no hope of getting out of it. Can't people choose to repent and do differently? To confess their sins and try to make atonement? And if we ask God forgiveness, isn't he faithful and just to forgive us our sins? As we hope others will forgive us also? Or shouldn't we also forgive others, as we have been forgiven by God?

The original discussion wasn't about judges. It is assumed that not everyone will followen the golden rule but shouldn't the creater of this world at least follow it?. Why create that person if that person will go to hell? I believe the christian god can tell the future right?

According to the Bible, some people are specifically created for the purpose of going to Hell.

Romans 9:22-24 says:

What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

So even people going to Hell has a good purpose in the end.

~Riella

And that quotation from Romans 9:22-24 is still a "what if".

According to the Bible, some people are specifically created for the purpose of going to Hell.

Romans 9:22-24 says:

What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

This is my problem. Because I've done all the right things in order to be saved, many times, over the course of over three decades, and it still hasn't worked, it leads me to conclude that I am one of those predestined for Hell. So it doesn't matter how much I may want to be a Christian, my name is not written in the Book of Life and God will not save me.

So why, with such a terrifying future ahead, do I not become an atheist? Simply because I believe atheism is false. Even as a small child, long before I prayed the "ask Jesus into my life" prayer, it seemed to me illogical that a universe as complex and amazing as ours could just spring into being by itself. So I've never seriously doubted the existence of a God who created everything. But a God who loves me... that's a different matter.

This is my problem. Because I've done all the right things in order to be saved, many times, over the course of over three decades, and it still hasn't worked, it leads me to conclude that I am one of those predestined for Hell. So it doesn't matter how much I may want to be a Christian, my name is not written in the Book of Life and God will not save me.

So why, with such a terrifying future ahead, do I not become an atheist? Simply because I believe atheism is false. Even as a small child, long before I prayed the "ask Jesus into my life" prayer, it seemed to me illogical that a universe as complex and amazing as ours could just spring into being by itself. So I've never seriously doubted the existence of a God who created everything. But a God who loves me... that's a different matter.

Note: The following is written from a Calvinist's perspective. It is not meant to start a debate on whether or not Calvinism is true.

As someone who is a Calvinist and believes in predestination, I have to point out that isn't quite how predestination works. It isn't that some people want to be saved, but God won't allow them to be. The idea of predestination goes hand-in-hand with the idea of Total Depravity - that man is so depraved that he, by default, does not want to be saved, nor does he want anything to do with God. If God chooses to save someone, He then changes their heart; and only then does a person desire to be saved, or want to have a connection with God. The people who aren't "chosen" don't want to be chosen. If you have any desire to be saved, that is evidence that God has predestined you, and has given you that desire.

Keep in mind, there are many people who are predestined who don't "feel saved" or don't feel close to God. But that has nothing to do with whether or not they're predestined. If they weren't predestined, they wouldn't care about being saved in the first place.

~Riella

The Bible includes some antinomies. I hold to this belief because the Bible is true, all of it, and yet some elements seem to be at odds. Here's a simple, but detailed definition:

Antinomies occur when there are two truths presented in the Bible that seem to contradict each other. Things such as human responsibility and God's election, the command to pray and God's sovereignty, or Jesus' status as God-man can cause people to stumble in their faith or pursue bad theology. By choosing one truth over the other, you are forced to reject or reinterpret Scriptures to fit your view. It is important to understand the practical application of an antimony. By faith you can accept both seemingly opposing ideas to be equally true and therefore grasp the message of the various texts of Scripture (Landis, Don. 2013 The Genius of Ancient Man, p.102).

According to the Bible, some people are specifically created for the purpose of going to Hell.

Romans 9:22-24 says:

What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

This is my problem. Because I've done all the right things in order to be saved, many times, over the course of over three decades, and it still hasn't worked, it leads me to conclude that I am one of those predestined for Hell. So it doesn't matter how much I may want to be a Christian, my name is not written in the Book of Life and God will not save me.

So why, with such a terrifying future ahead, do I not become an atheist? Simply because I believe atheism is false. Even as a small child, long before I prayed the "ask Jesus into my life" prayer, it seemed to me illogical that a universe as complex and amazing as ours could just spring into being by itself. So I've never seriously doubted the existence of a God who created everything. But a God who loves me... that's a different matter.

Okay I don't fear hell. I don't believe in an afterlife. At least not in the sense of a heaven and a hell. If god was real I think he would send people to hell for more serious things.(or he would be sending 75% or more of the human population there). Just do what you think is right and if there is an afterlife I am sure all will be fine. Don't fill your life with fears of what is not likely to happen.

I think the worlds creater would not send people to hell/heaven on the basis of their faith alone. That would be rather shallow of him. I mean if you were an honest hard working kind agnostic I don't think he would send them to hell for just being unsure on whether someone who doesn't show himself exists.

Remember I am just atheist about one more god than you.

I've been a bit under the weather the past week, so I'll sort of be playing catchup with this post.

Wagga, thanks very much for the info on that publication. It looks like a really excellent magazine; I'm tempted to get myself a subscription!

I think the passage you're thinking of is Romans 13:1-7, Puddleglum.

Romans 9 is an intriguing and challenging read, Ithie. I'm still in the process of studying it, but I find it very interesting to read Romans 9:15 in light of Romans 11:32, which largely seems to be the culmination of Paul's anguished discussion about what will become of his disobedient brethren. The last line of the doxology in Romans 11 is especially beautiful to me: For from him and through him and for him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen.

On the topic of Hell: recently I've been researching Gehenna, or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, a place that is adjacent to ancient Jerusalem. I've been trying to glean an understanding of what the significance of the word was to the listeners who heard Jesus first speak of it in Matthew 5:22. It's generally translated as Hell, which seems a shame to me as there's quite a bit of interesting information to be read about it if you know to look.

As far as I can tell, when it was referenced in the Old Testament, it referred to a geographic location—one where horrifying actions had taken place, according to 2 Chronicles 28:3, as well as the site of and metaphor for future punishment, as described in Jeremiah 19. When Jesus spoke of Gehenna in the Sermon on the Mount, the references weren't accompanied by qualifiers aside from fire, an attribute already associated with it. It seems that Gehenna was something the audience was expected to already understand, to be afraid of—which makes sense, based on what the Old Testament had already told them about the past and future of the valley.

That's interesting to me, though, because it seems the audiences of the time may well have interpreted Jesus's reference to Gehenna as referring to the physical location, and therefore indicating the physical ruin that God said was coming to the disobedient children of Israel in the Book of Jeremiah. Whether this was supposed to be meant as a metaphor when Jesus spoke of it, I have no idea; I'm still studying this. It's also possible that there were other understandings or concepts of Gehenna, not detailed in the Old Testament, that were well-known at the time of Christ.

It does make me inclined to wonder, though, if there may be a disconnect between the Gehenna that Jesus spoke of and what the modern reader generally thinks of when they read the translations and when they hear of the Hell that is taught today by mainstream Christianity—at least in regards to the eleven times that Jesus references Gehenna specifically.

At any rate, I think it's safe to say that a lot of the nuance is lost when interchanging the geographic place name with Hell!

In researching the view of Gehenna within Judaism, you find a definition that is significantly different than that of Hell within mainstream Christianity, but I'd be extremely hesitant to say that this was therefore the understanding of Gehenna at the time of Christ, since most of these writings seem to date from the second century. Unfortunately, according to what I've read, it appears that Jewish scholarship was primarily oral before the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 A.D., which doesn't leave much to study regarding the times leading up to and during the ministry of Jesus.

Goodness, this post ended up being a whole lot longer and more rambling than I intended. Anyway, if anyone has any links or resources about the meaning or significance of Gehenna in the time of Christ, I'd love to take a look at them! I hope everyone has a good weekend.

This looks like it will be very interesting.