~Riella

The German philosopher Leibniz coined a phrase that I think very eloquently frames the issue. The world we live in that God created has to be, in theory, the 'best of all possible worlds', because if there were any worlds that were better, an omnibenevolent God would have surely created those instead!

I wouldn't consider Leibniz's philosophy to be particularly solid in this respect. He seems to incorporate the world's evils as part of what must be 'the most perfect possible'. My suspicion is that he put forward this argument about God's nature/creation's nature for a more specific metaphysical or scientific purpose (he had a habit of doing this - he had a lot to say about the structure of space and time and rivalled Isaac Newton on this).

My view is that God did create a perfect creation. Without evil. Evil he did not create, but it was allowed to enter and to corrupt according to the will of mankind. Upon the death sentence of Jesus, however, what had been made corrupt can now be made perfect again, through him, acceptable to the Father.

Thus:

In its creation the world was literally perfect, and in its conclusion it is literally perfect. The intermission of evil (that is nullified anyway) merely reveals & glorifies the perfection of his grace - which astounds the hosts of heaven as much as it does its direct beneficiaries: us. It seems to outshine even the more comprehendible acts of creation and judgement, at least to me.

Welcome back, Minotaur! I'm greatly encouraged by your journey. You've mentioned some great stuff. There are some things to still work on though. Keep plugging away.

I don't have the eloquence of Minotaur, but one reason there's so much evil in the world is due to human pride and greed. Yes, Satan was kicked from Heaven, yes, Adam and Eve were tempted in the Garden. But most evil attributed to God, is nothing more than God saying - fine: you don't want to love each other, as I've loved you! And then he let's us see how much we need him. People are poor and rich because of the world's inequality of wealth. We are the problem, not God. And yet, people won't stop looking out for number one (themselves) until Christ brings an end to sin.

As for evolution, one reason why it doesn't reconcile with the Christian faith is that it's just a more modern version of the age-old pagan philosophies and religions where they tried to remove God from their world, so they weren't responsible to anyone and there were no consequences for their actions. They made God in their image by deifying kings and queens. These deified kings and queens resulted in the 'creation' of different deities (think Mesopotamian, Egyptian and Greek myths - all corrupted versions of God's Truth, found in the Bible). They could make these idols say and do whatever they wished, because they made them! Stories and histories of kings and queens were conflated with other important figures (warriors etc.) and exaggerated beyond belief. Ever wonder why Hercules echoes Samson? It's a myth based on his life. Now, we've 'advanced' to the point where we not-so-subtlety deify ourselves. Evolutionary theory is just another form of ancestor worship under the guise of Science.

W4J, just because Secular Evolutionists try to use the theory for the sake of godlessness, how does that invalidate the theory itself? Some people try to use religion for evil purposes as well, but that doesn't validate religion itself. Why wouldn't the same principle apply in this case?

~Riella

Random question: What happens when you perform a curse on someone else? Will it come back to you? Is there a such thing as karma?

Just wondering.

--Moonlight

Moonlight, I seriously hope you're trolling because no good comes of getting messed up in the spirit world. You may feel like you're in control but the evil spirits will be the ones really in control. It's a deadly road to travel. Only Christ can help you there.

I am going to leave the other conversations be because they seem to be just going around in circles. We will have to agree to disagree. Also There are about 5 other topics going on and it was getting a bit mixed.

Moonlight: You can't perform curses on people. You can act like you are but you can not truly curse someone. You will look like you are messing in the evil spirit world to most Christians and silly to the agnostics/atheists.

What happened was me and some friends performed a curse on someone else that his car would be totaled. The next week me and my friend both got into severe accidents that totaled our own cars. Needless to say I've learned my lesson and will never do curses again. Scary stuff.

W4J, just because Secular Evolutionists try to use the theory for the sake of godlessness, how does that invalidate the theory itself?

I don't think it does, but it doesn't mean that it's compatible with Christianity. If there was something...anything, in the Bible that could support Evolution I think it'd be much more accepted. But because the theory has no Biblical support (and I challenge anyone in this thread or anywhere else in the world to show me *contextual* verses that support it and point at it ) I cannot go with it. There are people who will call me a hick or a spiritual hayseed or a rube, and I'm fine with that. I think the Theory of Evolution is fascinating to read about, and I suppose from a scientific explanatory stance it probably makes a lot of sense, but for years people thought the Bubonic Plague came from stinky air, flies spontaneously erupted from spoiled meat, and the Earth was flat. I don't think it's required to believe in the Creation story to be a Christian, but because Genesis is the bedrock upon which the Bible was written I think that so too shall a Christian's foundation have a few wobbly spots if they discount the Genesis account too.

Well, Shadowlander got in before me. I agree with what he just said. I can't see how anyone can reconcile evolutionary theory and one's faith in God, because you really have to force that way of thinking into what the Bible says. I was taught evolution at my Christian primary school and high school (by the law it had to be taught). I learned about the theory from books and the like, mainly ones to do with dinosaurs and other prehistoric creatures.

The biblical understanding made much more sense to me, even as a child. I've read quite a bit on both sides of the coin (books, articles, scientific magazines) and found the understandings evolutionary theory supposedly provides to be both boring and silly. There's absolutely no evidence for the changes in nature prescribed by such a belief. Christian evolutionists often seem to be rather antagonistic towards those of us who believe differently. It's disturbing. I also believe Genesis 1-11 are historical, not just truthful mythology. I think critically about such things, I don't just accept what I read but I do believe God's Word is the final authority and that the buck stops with Him.

Just peeking into this thread, and had no intention of adding anything until Moonlight spoke up.
I cannot support what I say on any Biblical foundation, but I have spoken with a relative who has messed with witchcraft. Her first words would be GET OUT OF IT! FAST!
She warned of experiances of those who tried cursing Christians only for it to backfire, as you described, sometime fatally!
Even among the secular references I know of such things ALWAYS come with a cost. It may look like you have control, and have power, but you are not.

Puddleglum is right. God is more powerful than the Enemy. If someone curses a Christian, it will bounce back and hurt the one who performed the spell. But don't get involved with the occult. It's a dangerous world and not just physically. Your very soul is at stake!

I've learned my lesson and will never do it again!! EVER!! I can't defend what I did because yes it was very wrong. It was my friends idea and I think he got carried away, but I was there going along with it instead of stopping it. Then it came back times two!

Do you believe God gives Christians premonitions/dreams? Or is such a thing from evil spirits?

To your question about dreams. Yes.
Joseph was told in a dream to marry Mary. He was also warned to flee Bethlehem before Herod sent his soldiers.
Paul was directed in a dream to go to a particular city.
There are a few others. But you must always be careful. Be sure to seek council, and be sure whatever you may believe is the message from the dream that it does not contradict scripture.