Hi, guys.

A year ago, this is something I wasn't sure I would ever type, much less type this soon. But...here I am.

I have slowly begun to come back to Christianity. It's a bit on my own terms, but it's made a big shift in my internal bias when seeking answers. I have found myself now searching for explanations as to why Christianity is true, rather than false.

In start, I realized that my knowledge of these issues was primarily limited to amateur atheist blogs and youtube channels and not actual peer-reviewed literatrue written by the greatest minds of the field. I also began to feel increasingly less confident in the whole ideology behind the militant atheist movement online. /r/atheism in particular, the largest atheist community on the internet, taught me that with unsettling commonality, atheists can be just as close-minded, emotionally driven and intellectually sophomoric in the defense of their worldview as they portrayed.

Over the past few months I've been trying to actually read the best books on both religious and nonreligious apologetics, in addition to the slew of New Atheism books written by Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, and Dennett that I had heard so much about but never actually looked at. The latter group's arguments were astonishingly weak and less convincing than I thought they would be, especially on a philosophical level. In contrast, I found many theistic explanations to my biggest questions that not only seemed plausible, but probable!

So while I don't think I know all the answers now, I feel like it would be intellectually dishonest of me, with the knowledge I have right now, to reject Christianity on purely logical premises.

Rather, my biggest hurdle in full commitment to Christianity right now is mainly emotional. I have never felt any sort of noticeable response during prayer; it still feels like talking to a wall. I think the problem is I still don't know how to be open to a response, even if it's there. If I can make that leap to having a connection with God, I feel like I'd be all ready to have faith again.

Anyways, just want to post this to bring some closure to a lot of the conversations I had on here 1-2 years ago. Many of the responses you guys gave me to my former questions I have come to see as more reasonable than my old positions. And I want to thank those of you who responded to me patiently, and graciously. I am sorry for the times I was snarky, rude, or stubborn.

If there are any resources that you guys know of that you think would be particularly helpful to me, please let me know...God Bless

Welcome back.

I know what you mean by the emotional aspect of Christianity being more of a problem than the intellectual aspect. Intellectually, Christianity makes sense to me (or, at least, it makes the most sense - I still have plenty of doubts) and I find it intellectually compelling. Right now my problem is that I don't feel like I fit in with the church. For example, in high school most of my friends were atheists/agnostics and I often find I relate to that crowd more, even if I disagree with their philosophy. I'm between churches right now (and to make matters harder, I have to work on Sundays) and once I find a good church that makes me feel at home, things will probably go smoother. I still believe in the truth of Christianity, but the feelings aren't there.

Minotaur, have you ever read any of C. S. Lewis's non-fiction? I have found his books very helpful in meeting me where I am (and he wrote a book about prayer! i.e. Letters to Malcom: Chiefly on Prayer).

I have read both Dawkins and Hitchens books and I found their arguments much stronger than the arguments for Islamic religions and Christianity. I support evolution and I have read a lot of books in relation to biological science. I find that people who argue against science don't really know anything about it. They say stuff such as "If we come from monkey's why do we still have monkey's"

I am in no way a militant atheist. I just find science to be more realistic.

People go on about atheists having no reason to do good things but actually isn't it better to do good before you feel it is the right thing other than to do good to please an invisible god who may or may not be there?

People go on about atheists having no reason to do good things but actually isn't it better to do good before you feel it is the right thing other than to do good to please an invisible god who may or may not be there?

Why do you think it would be better?

MinotaurForAslan, i can empathize completely on the emotional front. It was actually a big sticking point for me a while back. My reasons for being a Christian are more philosophical than intellectual (though maybe that's splitting hairs?). I still have a lot of questions. I have yet to feel any genuine emotional connection. It's frustrating, and sometimes it feels like everything -- or at least a lot of things -- would go a lot better if i could just feel the presence or leading of God.

Obviously i don't have any "solutions" for the lack of emotional connection, but i know there are a lot of people who don't have it. One popular Christian artist even wrote a song about it.

I have read both Dawkins and Hitchens books and I found their arguments much stronger than the arguments for Islamic religions and Christianity. I support evolution and I have read a lot of books in relation to biological science. I find that people who argue against science don't really know anything about it. They say stuff such as "If we come from monkey's why do we still have monkey's"

I'm not sure what debate you're talking about here. There are two different debates that Dawkins has written about -

1. The debate between Atheism and Thesim
2. The debate between Evolution and Creationism

I agree that Dawkins has written some great books on the theory of evolution, if that's what you're talking about. Myself, I would be a supporter of theistic evolution - I think that theism is compatible with evolution and that the creationist's attempt to fight the is unnecessary.

I don't think Dawkins' books on the athesim/theism debate are as good. The thesis of his book "The God Delusion" is not very well reasoned and has premises that need to be accepted on faith, (i.e. since science has solved the problem of how life evolved, we should trust that science will be able to have the answers to everything else).

People go on about atheists having no reason to do good things but actually isn't it better to do good before you feel it is the right thing other than to do good to please an invisible god who may or may not be there?

Good question!

I would disagree with the notion that atheists have no reason to do things that we would consider 'good'. In general, acting in a way that benefits your family, friends and society is absolutely advantageous in the long term.

I think at the heart of what you're asking is, don't my actions have moral value if I do them of my own accord, rather than out of obligation? But I think there's a more important question that must be answered first before the answer to that question can be evaluated.

The overarching question is, how do we determine what is good? Once I know what your view is on that, Ilovefauns, then I can answer your original question within your own moral framework.

Arwenel: Because doing good things because you feel it is right to do so rather than doing good things/not doing bad things due to what a book or higher invisible power tells you. I understand that christians may do good things for both reasons.

minotaur: I do like his books on both debates but I am more interested in the evolution and creationism debate. It is good to know you support evolution because I know a few christian friends who do not who interrupted me to say so during my explanation to another colleague(who is agnostic) why the egg came first(link below). I just said to the christian colleague "okay but I do" and continued.

I found this for anyone who is interested:

http://sciencebasedlife.wordpress.com/2 ... he-answer/

What is good?: I guess it changes from person to person. I think treating people equally, helping people in times of trouble and going about your business without causing negative effects on anthers life are all good.

I am trying to find a good quote I heard from an Australian tv presenter about this but I can't find it or remember it.

I understand and agree with so much of what you say, Minotaur. I too struggle with finding any emotional connection to God. I feel like I'm just praying to a brick wall and my prayers are never answered. However I find I can't use that as a sound argument for the case that Christianity is not true; just because I haven't experienced it doesn't mean that it isn't real. I've never been to South America, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Still, I feel frustrated that as yet, Christianity doesn't seem to be "working" for me, and I want it to.

For one thing, I want to have a heart that actively wants to do good, not because some Spirit in the Sky demands it or because a particular book commands it, but because I genuinely care more about doing those good things than about pleasing myself; furthermore, that state becomes the norm and natural. I'm not at that stage, and I'm convinced that to get to it I need supernatural assistance; I will never manage it merely by exercising self-will.

I have no respect whatsoever for rabid atheists like Richard Dawkins. Everything he says is laced with venom, a complete hatred for God and Christianity. It's embarrassing, really. He's quite the evolutionary evangelist. Dawkins must have some inkling that God exists, because he tries so hard to fight the Judeo/Christian faith and with deny God's existence - for what purpose? So mankind can be the governor of Truth, become God. Must hurt to live in fear like that. I don't like the man at all, but I pity him and his unbelief.

Arwenel: Because doing good things because you feel it is right to do so rather than doing good things/not doing bad things due to what a book or higher invisible power tells you. I understand that christians may do good things for both reasons.

But why is that better? Who says? By what standard?

Arwenel, in some ways I think that what both IlF and yourself are referring to is how you resolve moral dilemmas, rather than the simple choice do good, on its own. We've seen some heinous examples of ill-doing in Australia, often by people who should have known better, people who publicly espouse Christian values. We've also seen that church prelates, even if not complicit with such activities, have often dealt with such matters in a less than satisfactory way.

And then there are others who simply didn't think at all, in their choices to do bad things, in whatever circumstances they were reared, and whatever values they say they had. One argument atheists often use, is that the atheists, themselves, can and do often behave better than do the religious mob. Are atheists helped or hindered in their choices and in resolving moral dilemmas by their non-belief in God?

I'd also agree it is a good idea to separate out Richard Dawkins et al.'s views on evolution from their views on God.

I support evolution and I have read a lot of books in relation to biological science. I find that people who argue against science don't really know anything about it. They say stuff such as "If we come from monkey's why do we still have monkey's

So do I support evolution, as does Minotaur for Aslan & Arwenel. And I take your points about science. I do object to the idea, though, that evolution disproves the existence of God. To do that is as if to deny what a complete miracle the Earth itself is, and the mere fact that we are alive, that we live, that we can appreciate the beauty of our surroundings, even on really horribly hot or cold days, that however the Earth was formed, and however long it took, that the perfection of the chemical combinations, the angle of the tilt of the axis, the Moon and its atmosphere have made the Earth what it is.

And it isn't as if even people in the 1700's and 1800's had all that much difficulty with the ideas of time and space which evolution imply, and which a literal belief in creationalism denies. "A thousand ages in Thy sight Are like an evening gone. Short as the watch that ends the night Before the opening dawn." Thus the hymn writer, Isaac Watts, said. On a SBS program, which compared Christianity with Islam and Judaism, I saw a reference to a rather genial Anglican bishop who worked in Cambridge University, I think it was. I forget his name, but he said the beauty of the Biblical account was that God said this and thus it was so. Eventually. And Archbishop Philip Aspinall, the Anglican Primate of Australia, has said that nobody should even feel turned away from any Anglican congregation because of a belief in evolution.

As I have mentioned, husband is a bit of an agnostic. Twenty five years ago he had thyroid cancer which involves surgery then radiation therapy in Westmead Hospital. For a week after taking this radioactive pill, he had to remain in isolation, and well away from our children. But since the day it was administered was our wedding anniversary, I went to see him anyway. I'd not been in good health, either, having had trouble with asthma, but though I had also been hospitalised, someone had to be home to mind our children.

That night I died. Or I was a split second away from it. Not knowing what to do, our children contacted a neighbour from the place where we had just moved away from living. Fortunately it wasn't far away, because this neighbour took me to casualty at the local hospital (Nepean @ Penrith). In the Volkswagen Beetle car he drove. There, they revived me, and contacted my husband in Westmead. Left alone, in an isolation ward, my husband was distraught enough to pray. Hard, desperately, and ferociously, even. He admitted so. It seemed as if he'd be up the proverbial creek without the proverbial paddle if I failed to pull through.

And here I am. So if Hubby did pray as he said he did, his prayer was answered. Wasn't it? Oh yes, my grandma also told me that Stalin, that great atheist, at the height of WW2, when the Germans were on their way to Moscow, instructed his people they could pray for deliverance. Which they got. Eventually, and at a heavy price.

So now you know at least one prayer was answered. Oh and it is my birthday today. Sydney time.

I don't know why Christian evolutionists always try to support their beliefs with a verse that is clearly using a simile to describe the awesome holiness of being in God's presence. I believe Christianity and evolutionary theory don't mix. They came from opposing worldviews (one believe God is the supreme creator, the other removes God from the picture) and can't be reconciled with each other. If God's Word is Absolute Truth, why place the ideals of man (evolutionary theory) above the Bible? We should be adjusting our ideas to what the Bible says, not trying to fit the Bible to our own ideas. If our ideas don't align with the Bible, we're the one's who need to rethink what we believe.

Arwenl: I thought I explained the reason because doing good things because you feel it is the right thing rather than than think "well that is a good thing to do because the bible says it is". It is better to go from your own judgement I guess. I know many Christians would however use there own judgement due to the changing world.

Anyway On the subject of Dawkins I do agree with most of what he says but I don't like the way he goes about it. As I have mentioned before Stephen Fry is a much better speaker in terms of Atheism.

Now on to evolution I agree with Wagga I think Christians can still support evolution but believe the world was originally started by god. I have no problem with that what so ever.

I believe Christianity and evolutionary theory don't mix. They came from opposing worldviews (one believe God is the supreme creator, the other removes God from the picture) and can't be reconciled with each other. If God's Word is Absolute Truth, why place the ideals of man (evolutionary theory) above the Bible? We should be adjusting our ideas to what the Bible says, not trying to fit the Bible to our own ideas. If our ideas don't align with the Bible, we're the one's who need to rethink what we believe.

How does evolution remove God from the picture? If Evolutionary theory is true, it's just another natural process that God Himself designed and set in motion.

I'm not sure how Evolution contradicts the Bible. The Bible says God created the universe, but it doesn't go into great detail as to how He did it. Scientific research is just a way of investigating God's creation. And the Bible encourages us to seek after knowledge. So if scientific research turns up a theory as to how God created the universe, I don't really see any reason to label it as a humanistic ideal.

~Riella

I have been reading quotes in relation to atheism. These three stood out to me.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

- Epicurus Quotes

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

Steven Weinberg Quote

If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed.

-Albert Einstein

Is he able, but not willing? then he is malevolent.

I don't believe that an unwillingness to stop evil is malevolent. He doesn't approve of evil, He takes no part in it. But he allows it go on. Temporarily. And for a purpose. And he will punish all wrongdoing at some point. In my mind, this does not make Him evil. Instead, it is allowing free will.

But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

It actually takes the abuse of religion. If people followed their own religions more, rather than just using the bits that make them feel good, they would also be following the parts that command them to treat others with kindness. But, they choose to ignore those parts of religion. This is a case against humanity, not against religion. Saying religion is bad because people abuse it is like saying cars are bad because people drive drunk and get into accidents, or that medicine is bad because some people are drug addicts.

If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed.

If that's why they are doing it, yes. But the Bible encourages much more than that. A big part of the Christian religion is not just doing things for reward, but an actual transformation of the heart and a willingness to do what's right.

~Riella