IF GOD LOVED US, HE WOULD EITHER NEVER HAVE CREATED US, OR HE WOULD NOT HAVE GIVEN US FREE WILL.

What exactly do you mean by "free will" here?

TBG

What exactly do you mean by "free will" here?

The ability to choose hell.

Andrew, you seem to pride yourself on thinking for yourself, and I'm glad you do. But in this instance, try taking stock of your beliefs. Why did you come to the conclusions that you have? If you come to them out of bitterness at what someone who called themselves Christian has done or said to you in the past, then are you really thinking for yourself? Or is that person thinking for you through their impact on you?

I would say having religion shoved down my throat since birth did spark my looking for other answers, but it did not arrive at them for me. In fact, when I first started looking for new beliefs, I first tried Catholisism, then pantheism, had a brief stint of Christianity, and then I made a vow to myself that I was going to take time to find out first who I was, and then look for a belief system that agreed. I came to my conclusions, for the most part, by my own reasoning. And then one day I came across a definition that fit, exactly, what I had come to on my own reasoning, and that was the definition of nihilism. I'll quote wikipedia on this one, if I may, because unreliable as you may find it this is still correct:

Moral nihilism

Moral nihilism, also known as ethical nihilism, is the meta-ethical view that morality does not exist as something inherent to objective reality; therefore no action is necessarily preferable to any other. For example, a moral nihilist would say that killing someone, for whatever reason, is not inherently right or wrong. Some nihilists argue not that there is no morality at all, but that if it does exist, it is a human and thus artificial construction, wherein any and all meaning is relative for different possible outcomes. As an example, if someone kills someone else, such a nihilist might argue that killing is not inherently a bad thing, bad independently from our moral beliefs, only that because of the way morality is constructed as some rudimentary dichotomy, what is said to be a bad thing is given a higher negative weighting than what is called good: as a result, killing the individual was bad because it did not let the individual live, which was arbitrarily given a positive weighting. In this way a moral nihilist believes that all moral claims are false.

Existential nihilism
Existential nihilism is the belief that life has no intrinsic meaning or value. It can stem from scientific analysis showing that only the physical laws contributed to our existence. With respect to the universe, a single human or even the entire human species is insignificant, without purpose and is not likely to change in the totality of existence. Quite simply, nihilists in this respect believe that the only purpose in life is to live it.

Fencer, all of those options either take power from God or make him indifferent.

As for your miracles, I will try to hit them all:

-Tumor disappearance: Could be equipment failure, misreading of the results, etcetera.

-Knee problems healed: As somebody recently recovering from my own knee injuries, I know my injury went as soon as it was gone - one day I could barely stand to run, the next I was skateboarding. Granted it still gives me problems if I use it too much, but that is the nature of such things.

-Multiplying food: Perhaps you didn't notice all of the food, or somebody brought some more in, maybe even anonmyously?

-Alcholism cured: My science teacher's mother was a nicotine addict for 35 years, one day she hired a hypnotist to hypnotize her to never smoke again, and she hasn't touched a cigarette since.

-Boy who drowned to death: Not uncommon for people to come back from "death," as they must be brain dead for 5 minutes to remove all possibility of their regaining of conciousness.

I have to be honest in that I am not surprised by this response in the least. In fact, I would have been surprised if the response was otherwise. Jesus did say that if the people would not believe his messengers (the prophets at that time), they would not believe even if a miracle was right before thier eyes. So I won't address that, but I will address the logic of what you are trying to use here to 'disprove' these encounters which is really pulling at straws.

--Tumor disappeared. How many times do doctors take x-rays before they perform surgury? Quite a few. Would every single one of them be wrong? Only in the cases of a conspiracy, ie to milk money out of patient. But that was clearly not the case. Yes, those things do happen where equipment does malfunction, but doctors don't stay in buisness if that happens, except for rare flukes. That's why they take so many x-rays.

--Knee Injury. Injuries that get better, even quickly overnight are one thing. This is a 15-minute night and day difference. This girl almost had to be carried up to the tent where it happened (up a not so gentle slope because it was on a mountain camp). Then she was able to jump up and down and has not felt ANY pain since. It's one thing for it to go away for a time, but relapse as your case shows. It's something else for the pain to be completely gone, the joint 100% functional and the pain does not come back.

--Multiplying food. I've seen cases you've described where provision is made from an outside source. But if that was the case, I would have stated it. I didn't state our location in Mexico, or the fact that I've worked years behind the scenes in events like this. We were out in the middle of nowhere, and even if Mexico had a store that sold the exact same stuff we originally had, it would have taken 1-2 hours to get it, let alone return to the US to get it. No one had the time to see the crowd and get more food. Not to mention we used the same serving pans for the meat and corn (did not trade them out for new ones) and they never ran out until after the last person was served seconds. Could someone have brought in the exact same stuff we cooked that morning on the US side, knowing what we cooked, and exactly how much we needed? I don't think so. I haven't mentioned the feeding where we have far more people than food to feed and the exact last bite goes to the exact last person in line.

--Alcoholism cured. This brings up something else. God is not the only one that can perform miracles. So can Satan. And he loves to mimic miracles that God performs to get us to believe in something else other than him. And I don't see how you could consider hypnosis a legitimate scientific means of getting something done and reject that there might be a God out there who is interested in our lives. That being said, your teacher went to a hypnotist and had something done. This guy I knew (before he died) listened to a Billy Graham Crusade on the radio in prison. He became a Christian that night and was instantly healed of the addictions. Never had a craving since. It was such a difference that when he was released and he told his family what happened, they all became Christians because of the change. Your argument doesn't stand because your solution didn't happen.

--Boy drowned. If he was out for 5 minutes, maybe you have something to stand on. He was gone for more than an hour (I don't remember the exact time, because it's been a while since his dad shared the testimony.).

Now, I am not trying to prove these encounters to you as miracles, but showing you that you were trying to reject them with things that clearly weren't the case. God won't work in the supernatural if he can work in the natural. Not because he can't but because he chooses not to. I have so many more stories, like how we pay our bills. We live off support and my mom and I are math people. We clearly have significantly more money going out that what comes in, yet all our bills are always paid. Sometimes special gifts come in unexpectedly, but there is no way the math works out for us to stay on top with our income. But the point is not to prove to you God's existence through miracles, because you've already shown that you won't believe in them anyway. My point here is that there are things that happen that truly cannot be explained by science, experience or coincidence.

Can you explain how someone could get the ability to forgive someone who did those atrocities to you, your family, or someone you loved? Now forgiveness for us does not mean that you are letting the perpetrator off the hook? It means you are letting the case be in God's hands who will deal with it.

Yes, I don't need god to forgive (in fact I don't need to forgive at all). If life has no purpose, then, as Plato said, "No human thing is of serious importance." I do not personally like to waste my life holding grudges, and I forget who said this but I recall this quote as well, "Forgiveness is almost a selfish act because of the benefits to the forgiver," or something like that. Forgiveness to me isn't letting God deal with it, it's saying you are not going to hold it against them in the future, once it has been delt with (if necessary).

You've missed my point entirely here. I've mentioned two people who have endured a horrific experience and both (one a well experienced adult, and the other an innocent child) found it in them to forgive the perpetrators. I asked how you thought this might be possible, and you answered how you, who haven't not had anything close to these experiences, don't need to worry about it. I'm not asking you how you would deal with it. I'm asking how it's possible from your perspective.

And if I wasn't so grounded in what I believe and if God didn't protect me (at the least physically), I would have fallen to that thing or worse. And it is times like these, when it is so clear that there is no way out, that God shows up and proves to us that there is no other answer but him.

Of course everyone on this planet will hit "storms" at one point of another, mainly because free will causes suffering. I accept the consequences of my actions, I don't ask for someone else to do it for me. And there is always a way out, if you really want to get out.

Interestingly enough, the worst time in my life (not externally, but internally) was caused by what? My desire to follow Christ. What was my escape? Learning to see the truth.

It is one thing to simply accept consequences of your actions. But you also need to understand that consequences of your actions always at some point (unless you are a hermit completely isolated from the rest of the universe) affects someone else. And you say the worst time of your life due to following Christ? There is a reason for that, and it's not God. It's Satan. He is our adversary, and as long as we are not following God, he won't bother us. If we do decide to follow Christ, we get a big target on our backs because we are a threat to him. My encounter with the demonic that I references here was because I was being a huge threat. It was the most difficult and intense moments of my life, but I knew it was because I was on the right path. Just because life gets difficult, that doesn't mean God abandons you. He didn't abandom me, even when every tactic I knew to drive out a demon didn't work. If he had, I likely would be dead right now because my life was threated in that encounter.

Now,

I AM NOT PUTTING THIS IN ALL CAPS TO IMITATE SHOUTING, BUT BECAUSE NOBODY HAS ANSWERED THIS YET: IF GOD LOVED US, HE WOULD EITHER NEVER HAVE CREATED US, OR HE WOULD NOT HAVE GIVEN US FREE WILL. HE CREATED US, APPARENTLY, BECAUSE WE ARE THE ONE THING HE CANNOT CONTROL, AND OUR LOVE FOR HIM MEANS SOMETHING MORE. HOWEVER BY DOING SO HE ALLOWS US TO BURN IN HELL FOREVER, OUR CHOICE PERHAPS, BUT WOULD YOU LET YOUR CHILDREN YOU CLAIM TO LOVE JUMP IN A FIRE, EVEN IF THEY WANTED TO? GOD IS EITHER MALICE OR HE IS INDIFFERENCE.

This ties into your comment above about life having no purpose. If your statement is correct, then everything you say here is a logical conclusion. But if life does have a purpose, then everything falls apart. You are not really asking the questions you have here. You are really asking why would a God allow evil to mess with his creation and allow it act. Well, one of the reasons why is to show that there is nothing beyond what he can handle. I tell the story of my encounter with the demonic to show this. That no matter how dark the evil can get, God is still bigger and better and will overcome it all.

Another answer is restoration. Did you know that a restored vintage car is far more valuable than an original brand new one? And how does a vintage car get restored? It first must get used, beat up, and broken down to where it is essentially scrap. Then the restorer slowly, piece by piece, put it back together to where it is better, newer, cleaner, and far more valuable then it ever was brand new. That may be one of the reasons why God allowed us to sin.

But there are other questions you need to consider along these lines. If God was malicious or indifferent, what is the purpose of Jesus? Why is there so many stories and encounters of God sticking around? Why doesn't God just give us our due for sin right now? But focus on Jesus. Who is he really and what was his purpose? That is the question every one of us must face one day. If Jesus was just another one of the prophets, then his claim to be God is false, and therefore his sermons and messages are unreliable. But if he really is the Son of God as a part of the Holy Trinity, they everything he said is true, and we have a God who so cares for us that he would break himself so that he might have fellowship with us. And until you answer those questions, you will never get a clear answer to your others.

and then I made a vow to myself that I was going to take time to find out first who I was, and then look for a belief system that agreed.

Interesting. So in essence, you chose a belief system that fit around you. Whereas I (and probably most, if not all, the other Christians here) chose our belief system first, and then fit ourselves to them.

This is clearly where our differences lie, and likely the main source of difficulty in understanding how our belief system works.

I'm not asking you how you would deal with it. I'm asking how it's possible from your perspective.

Forgiveness has been achieve by many, and so it is possible. The more difficult a situation, the more difficult the forgiveness. I see no reason why it should be impossible, but also no reason why it should be required.

You are not really asking the questions you have here. You are really asking why would a God allow evil to mess with his creation and allow it act.

Not true, because I don't think he really gives a crap.

If God was malicious or indifferent, what is the purpose of Jesus?

I think I answered this a few pages back but I'll recap, basically Jesus was not really the son of God.

Interesting. So in essence, you chose a belief system that fit around you. Whereas I (and probably most, if not all, the other Christians here) chose our belief system first, and then fit ourselves to them.

No, rather around the reasoning I found to be true. It's not like anybody wants to be a nihilist, but it is what it is.

My problem TBG, is that you use Epistomology to obfuscate and conflate Ontological distinctions.

Christianity already HAS a seat at the intellectual table of the World's Religions and Philosophies. What it Doesn't have, and never will, is an intellectual seat at the table of the World's Sciences and Technologies.

All your Philosophical Hocus Pocus can't change that. And that is precisely why you seem so unhappy with a purely Faith Based position.

GB

PS: You share with Logical Positivists a love of Tautologies. I haven't forgotten our earlier debates wherein you attempted to demonstrate that ALL Reason must rest on Tautologies.

Incoherent Mess indeed.

My problem TBG, is that you use Epistomology to obfuscate and conflate Ontological distinctions.

It's because I think that the propositions of Christianity are no less real than those of science. If you will, I'm a neo-medievalist like Lewis and Tolkien: I don't see a qualitative distinction between my rational knowledge of the physical and the metaphysical realms.

You share with Logical Positivists a love of Tautologies. I haven't forgotten our earlier debates wherein you attempted to demonstrate that ALL Reason must rest on Tautologies.

Naturally: all logic is tautological. Even science rests on tautological propositions such as "every effect must have a cause." However, all that LP said was that language rests on tautologies for its structure. The tautologies of metaphysics and religion were taken to be meaningless (though not pointless---if you are early Wittgenstein).

Andrew,

If I write a novel and give a character a bad end, does that indicate carelessness or indifference on my part? Is J. K. Rowling culpable or responsible for the evil of Lord Voldemort? Is Tolkien responsible for the evil of Sauron?

TBG

If I write a novel and give a character a bad end, does that indicate carelessness or indifference on my part? Is J. K. Rowling culpable or responsible for the evil of Lord Voldemort? Is Tolkien responsible for the evil of Sauron?

That's not even applicable here considering those aren't real, but it's interesting you brought up Voldemort - an interesting character, I think I'll steal a couple of quotes from him while we're here:

There is no good and evil, there is only power and those to weak to seek it.

Is it love? Dumbledore's favorite solution, love? Which he claimed conquered death, but love did not stop him from toppling from the tower and breaking like an old waxwork...Dumbledore is dead.

Of course none of these characters, though based on some actual people, are real, but let's apply that last quote to the story of Jesus. He is of course dead, and he died a martyr for his message.

For example, a moral nihilist would say that killing someone, for whatever reason, is not inherently right or wrong.

This sounds very cool and brazen, and maybe workable -- for another universe. But it doesn't fit with the real one. It also gives humans absolutely no cause to question or object to anything, or condemn any behavior, or set any kinds of standards. I could step on your toe. Or slam a car door on your fingers. Or shoot your child. And according to your (professed) worldview, you have no reason to complain. In fact, logically, you should ask for more.

The absolute, undeniable reality is that you cannot be absolutely free. You are stuck with your human desires, including the wrong desire to sin and rebel against God's moral Law, and the God-given desires that by nature, when you hear of murders, rapes, children dying, pets suffering, businessmen deceiving, governments abusing, react and say, This is wrong.

Pardon a moment of real patronizing here, but let's just cut out the philosophical mishmash and Vulcan pretense (even the Vulcans would disapprove of this level of supposed ignorance of emotions): you are too young to be this cynical. And I join others in suggesting you don't really, deep down, believe all this stuff.

Hey Andrew, you may be sensitive to this -- maybe other adults have done this to you and my wording may sound like it too -- but don't just react as if I'm putting you down for an age difference. Everyone here has treated you with the utmost respect. And there isn't much about my writing style or substance I would change if I learned you were 40 or something. (If you do feel put down just for thinking -- as I know some professing Christians can do -- please PM me.)

But if you have been checking out religions and beliefs for this long, I doubt you've believe this for longer than a few years at best.

Maybe you hope you'll grow into it. Perhaps if you keep repeating it over and over, preaching this "gospel" of nihilism to yourself, you'll be cool and be able to deal with the "real" world much more effectively (and nihilism certainly also comes in handy when the hormones kick in!).

It hasn't happened yet. So even while arguing, I can't help but feel pity.

In a classic moment from C.S. Lewis's Perelandra, a formerly great scientist (Weston) has landed on Venus (Perelandra) and joined the trilogy's hero, Dr. Elwin Ransom. God Himself has sent Ransom to the planet, carried by angels, to be His voice during a coming spiritual battle. But before that happens, Weston explains his new religion, a mixture of nihilism and blind obedience to what he calls a "life force" within him.

[Ransom is speaking] "Does that mean in plainer language that the thing the Force wants you to do are what ordinary people call diabolical?"

"My dear Ransom, I wish you could not keep relapsing to the popular level. The two things are only moments in the single, unique reality. The world leaps forward through great men and greatness always transcends mere moralism. When the leap has been made our 'diabolism' as you would call it becomes the morality of the next stage; but while we are making it, we are called criminals, heretics, blasphemers. . . ."

"How far does it go? Would you still obey the Life-Force if you found it prompting you to murder me?"

"Yes."

"Or to sell England to the Germans?"

"Yes."

"Or to print lies as serious research in a scientific periodical?"

"Yes."

"God help you!" said Ransom.

Consider: where will this "nihilism" be if someone is threatening to kill you? Or someone you do love? Will you not "convert" almost instantly to the Judeo-Christian view of human life's right to go on living? Or would you hold out until the end, a brave and courageous martyr for the cause of "nihlism," being absolutely too cool to care about anything, even dying?

I accept the consequences of my actions, I don't ask for someone else to do it for me. And there is always a way out, if you really want to get out.

This is all bluff and bluster. Have the humility to admit it, eh wot?

Perhaps you're sure you have had a very hard life so far, and not knowing you I can't (and wouldn't) claim otherwise. Now consider all the people who've had it much worse, for far longer, and still believe in a good God. Isn't it just a bit arrogant to act as though only you have suffered?

You have had almost no time to put "nihilism" to the test in the real world. In the sterile environment of a message-board forum you think these ideas much greater than they really are. But you have not even become legally of age, gone to college, considered a career -- and even when you do, you'll be protected (we hope!) from the consequences of your own worldview, applied consistently to life, by those who believe the exact opposite: that morality can be legislated, that human life deserves certain rights, and that human justice is (mostly) attainable even now.

You can say "it is what it is," etc. , as often as you like, and it only further reveals the baselessness of your beliefs. I am quite happy to point this out, not just to be "right," but because (unlike your perceptions of others, or worse, real experience with others) I as a Christian care, not just about Your Soul, but whether you possess the most amount of joy that can be possessed: namely, God Himself, perfect love and holiness.

By contrast, the "worldview" you profess is evil. And it collapses right out from under you with the slightest provocation. If everyone believed it consistently, it would lead to an undeniably miserable world -- and much more miserable than whatever happened to you when others tried to force other religions on you. You've gone from the frying pan into a "hellhole" not based in reality, but a made-up world in your own mind.

My statement of before stands: do not base your life, or perception of what Christianity is, on what others have done. Instead, compare their actions and beliefs to the Bible they claim to follow, and see for yourself whether these things are so. Try listening for a change, and learn what real Christians believe?

But first, get some sunshine. Even flatscreen monitors can wear on the eyes for a while. Try some natural light, in the great outdoors; step away from the computer, go skateboarding -- and if you do, I hope you'll steal (again!) from the Christian worldview and keep yourself safe by wearing a helmet and kneepads or whatever it is skateboarders use for safety.

That's not even applicable here considering those aren't real

But the situation is analogous. If the characters in the Harry Potter series were to learn of the existence of J. K. Rowling and the part that she had played in their lives, would they have any just cause for complaint? No, because even though their actions were planned, they still made the choices. Voldemort cannot ask Rowling "Why did you make me like this?"

He is of course dead, and he died a martyr for his message.

But here we get to the heart of the matter: is Jesus dead or is He alive?

TBG

You are too young to be this cynical. And I join others in suggesting you don't really, deep down, believe all this stuff.

Too young? How young is too young? And you can suggest what you will, it won't change the facts.

This sounds very cool and brazen, and maybe workable -- for another universe. But it doesn't fit with the real one. It also gives humans absolutely no cause to question or object to anything, or condemn any behavior, or set any kinds of standards. I could step on your toe. Or slam a car door on your fingers. Or shoot your child. And according to your (professed) worldview, you have no reason to complain. In fact, logically, you should ask for more.

How is any of this a problem?

the God-given desires that by nature, when you hear of murders, rapes, children dying, pets suffering, businessmen deceiving, governments abusing, react and say, This is wrong.

Of course a great deal of people do react this way, not naturally but because we are told from the times we're small children that we should - we're told it is wrong to lie, fight, and steal, when in reality the natural inclination is to do just that - look at any other animal, in addition to humans.

Maybe you hope you'll grow into it. Perhaps if you keep repeating it over and over, preaching this "gospel" of nihilism to yourself, you'll be cool and be able to deal with the "real" world much more effectively

Yet you forget that I did not choose nihilism, it has always made sense to me. Even the futility of Christianity when I believed in it - we are supposed to lead others to Christ, so they will lead others to Christ, and to what end? An eternity of worshiping him? Sounds like fun.

Perhaps you're sure you have had a very hard life so far, and not knowing you I can't (and wouldn't) claim otherwise. Now consider all the people who've had it much worse, for far longer, and still believe in a good God. Isn't it just a bit arrogant to act as though only you have suffered?

My life hasn't been hard, in fact an easy one at that. And I think that is why my beliefs can potentially mean something - they are not just a way of dealing with hard times, they are the reality.

Consider: where will this "nihilism" be if someone is threatening to kill you? Or someone you do love? Will you not "convert" almost instantly to the Judeo-Christian view of human life's right to go on living? Or would you hold out until the end, a brave and courageous martyr for the cause of "nihlism," being absolutely too cool to care about anything, even dying?

If you stand for something in life, it means nothing if you do not stand for it in death. Everytime I get in the car and drive somewhere I am risking an eternity in hell - for all I know somebody could hit me and kill me. But if there is no purpose (and there isn't), what does it matter if I die?

By contrast, the "worldview" you profess is evil. And it collapses right out from under you with the slightest provocation. If everyone believed it consistently, it would lead to an undeniably miserable world -- and much more miserable than whatever happened to you when others tried to force other religions on you. You've gone from the frying pan into a "hellhole" not based in reality, but a made-up world in your own mind.

The world is already miserable, though. Let's talk about this world you're so in love with. In fact one country in the world:

In the United States over 22 million people have alcoholism, in 2008 alone there were over 89,000 reported rapes and 16,000 murders.

I will end with this beautiful quote (good book by the way, been several years since I read it):

"My dear Ransom, I wish you could not keep relapsing to the popular level. The two things are only moments in the single, unique reality. The world leaps forward through great men and greatness always transcends mere moralism. When the leap has been made our 'diabolism' as you would call it becomes the morality of the next stage; but while we are making it, we are called criminals, heretics, blasphemers. . . ."

"How far does it go? Would you still obey the Life-Force if you found it prompting you to murder me?"

"Yes."

"Or to sell England to the Germans?"

"Yes."

"Or to print lies as serious research in a scientific periodical?"

"Yes."

But first, get some sunshine. Even flatscreen monitors can wear on the eyes for a while. Try some natural light, in the great outdoors; step away from the computer, go skateboarding -- and if you do, I hope you'll steal (again!) from the Christian worldview and keep yourself safe by wearing a helmet and kneepads or whatever it is skateboarders use for safety.

Thanks for the advice, I'm actually about to go for a run. I don't wear pads, not that that has anything to do with anything, if I get hurt, it happens. Oh well.

But the situation is analogous. If the characters in the Harry Potter series were to learn of the existence of J. K. Rowling and the part that she had played in their lives, would they have any just cause for complaint? No, because even though their actions were planned, they still made the choices. Voldemort cannot ask Rowling "Why did you make me like this?"

Of course they didn't make their choices, she wrote the whole story.

I AM NOT PUTTING THIS IN ALL CAPS TO IMITATE SHOUTING, BUT BECAUSE NOBODY HAS ANSWERED THIS YET: IF GOD LOVED US, HE WOULD EITHER NEVER HAVE CREATED US, OR HE WOULD NOT HAVE GIVEN US FREE WILL. HE CREATED US, APPARENTLY, BECAUSE WE ARE THE ONE THING HE CANNOT CONTROL, AND OUR LOVE FOR HIM MEANS SOMETHING MORE. HOWEVER BY DOING SO HE ALLOWS US TO BURN IN HELL FOREVER, OUR CHOICE PERHAPS, BUT WOULD YOU LET YOUR CHILDREN YOU CLAIM TO LOVE JUMP IN A FIRE, EVEN IF THEY WANTED TO? GOD IS EITHER MALICE OR HE IS INDIFFERENCE.

God did NOT create evil. He didn't "give us a burning fire to jump into" in a sense, instead, he gave us the option of creating that fire. If God intended on making us in His image (which he did) giving us a free will was an essential aspect; without it there can not be real, true, deep, biblical love. If he had made us to be robots that did everything he said than where would love be?

Your analogy of the child jumping into the fire breaks down because if a parent lets their child jump into a fire that would simply be a lack of protection on the parents part. They protect the child because he is young and doesn't understand that the fire will harm him. God has not failed to protect us. He has given us his word as a warning so that we will know that "jumping into the fire" WILL harm us. He is the parent that warns the child. He PROTECT us. He's trying to protect YOU, but all you want to do is jump in the fire.

I'll always be a,
NL101

Of course they didn't make their choices, she wrote the whole story.

Excuse me, but from their perspective, they did. Even from her perspective they did.

You know, if I believed as you did, I would find all of the stuff we've discussed as obvious and uninteresting as you find it. In fact, I would eventually come to the conclusion that there is only one really interesting question:

To be or not to be– that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles
And, by opposing, end them. To die, to sleep
No more – and by a sleep to say we end
The heartache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to – ‘tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wished. To die, to sleep
To sleep, perchance to dream. Ay, there's the rub,
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come,
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause. There's the respect
That makes calamity of so long life.
For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
Th’ oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely,
The pangs of disprized love, the law's delay,
The insolence of office, and the spurns
That patient merit of th’ unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin? Who would fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscovered country from whose bourn
No traveler returns, puzzles the will
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all,

Seriously, this is the only interesting question if life is as meaningless and empty as you would like to claim. Go and actually read Sartre, Camus, Heidegger---they should be your heroes. What are you living for?

On the other hand, what if you are wrong? What if there is goodness and light and beauty? What if there is true freedom to do right? Raskolnikov discovered that while nihilism, being the übermensch, the Napoleon, sounds nice and grand and exciting, it is not, in the end, liveable. If God is dead, then all things are permissible, yet it turns out that not all things are permissible, therefore God is there.

What Christ offers is authentic existence---a life of meaning and purpose. You can become better than what you are through His Spirit, who molds and shapes you into His image. This is not slavery but freedom---freedom to do what is good and right.

God HAD to give us a free will, without it there can not be real, true, deep, biblical love.

God did not have to do anything. Free will is just defined as the ability to do what you want. Let's not go glossing over the sovereignty and wrath of God, shall we?

TBG

God HAD to give us a free will, without it there can not be real, true, deep, biblical love.

God did not have to do anything. Free will is just defined as the ability to do what you want. Let's not go glossing over the sovereignty and wrath of God, shall we?

TBG

Bad choice of words on my part. Of course I do not mean to say that God is required to do anything, but rather, that if he intended to make us in the image of Himself (which he did) that creating us with a free will was an essential aspect.

I'll always be a,
NL101

but rather, that if he intended to make us in the image of Himself (which he did) that creating us with a free will was an essential aspect.

God cannot sin: ergo, the capacity to sin is not part of the image of God.

TBG