Those are some very depressing beliefs.

When sin entered the world, we were all destined for hell. God sent Christ to provide salvation from that sin and death. He provided hope.

For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.

I am so thankful that the God of the universe wants what is best for me, wants to bless me, know me, and be loved by me. How can I keep from singing his praises? How can I keep from seeking him on my knees?

Does anyone here belive spirts and ghosts exist. I am kind of in the middle, I am a skeptic.

I believe spirits are very real and ghosts, if they exist, are fallen spirits messing with humans and leading them away from the Truth.

It's been some time since I last popped in on this thread (some sort of glitch with the thread notifications ). Anyway, a couple of things on the current page caught my attention.

Wagga, your mention of the Aborigines reminded me of a great programme I saw on PBS recently called The Journey of Man. It was a fascinating look at what Genetics has to say about about the spread of Humankind around the planet from African Origins. And one of the big questions it focussed on was tracing the migration of the people that became the Aborigines through DNA. I'm pretty sure most on the thread will find the programme very interesting.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8866568816093486330#

Andrew and ILF's posts also caught my eye .

Andrew, being a sort of Agnostic myself, I get where you're coming from, but perhaps I have a slightly different take on Agnosticism. For me, some of the key questions are:

1) How does one define "God"?
2) And if one thinks that some sort of Universal Consciousness could be an A-Priori predicate for Existence, can that also be considered God?
3) Is Deification necessarily the only way to approach such a Cosmic Sentience?
4)And will we ever be able to Empirically prove the Existence of at least a Primary Conscious Intent, if not a particular Deity (or Deities) of any particular Religion?

Those are the sorts of questions at the root of my Agnosticism. I tend to agree with your positions vis a vis some of the more Literal or Traditional Christian interpretations of the Bible, yet I can't escape the notion that there are some profound Spiritual truths revealed therein, couched in Myth though I think they may be.

I guess I'm kind of a Gnostic Agnostic . And I tend to lean more to an Eastern and Pagan view of Theology.

My own answer to my question #4 above, is that I don't think ANY Particular Deity (from Allah to Zeus ) can be proven or disproven to exist. On the other hand, I do think that science might eventually be able to at least reveal Conscious Intent at the foundation of Reality. After all, if Chaos Theory (aka Complexity Theory) mathematics reveals Fractals as "self-organizing systems" being fundamental to all natural phenomena, that really begs the question of Conscious Intent.

And in a way, this relates also to ILF's questions. Skepticism is all well and good regarding "ghosts" and "spirits", but perhaps there are some phenomena that can only be explained by non-corporeal beings. I personally wouldn't rule them out, though there might be more than one valid explanation for experiences of disembodied entities.

Generally speaking though, I only use the term "Spirit" for Energy or "Life-force", which is the animating principle of the Universe.

GB

I have to be honest in that I really can't say too much about ghosts. But I can say I know enough about demons to say that they can very easily manafest themselves as ghosts. The closest description we get of a ghost in the Bible is 1 Samuel 29 when Saul visits the Witch of Endor. Samuel appears before Saul, and demands why his rest was disturbed. Was it actually Samuel that showed up? Was it a demon that took the form of Samuel? I really don't know. But it clear from the context that Samuel was at rest, and his rest was disturbed. That being said, Samuel was not caught 'between worlds' as many say. But demons can easily manafest themselves as ghosts simply to distract us from God.

As far as can "God" be proven or disproven... the answer is simply no. From a Christian stand-point, God created the heavens and the earth and all that is within them. He created all the animals, life beings, and all the laws of math and science. And if God created them, he is above them and cannot be defined by these terms. God is described an infinite, not just in time, but in space. He is also not limited to the 3-dimensions we see and know.

The Christian God, 'Yahweh', is also described has perfect, good, and holy. And as creator of the world, he runs the world the way he sees fit. I've been thinking about this, but a lot of Christians, when asked what the purpose of mankind is, answer by saying to give glory to God. I am coming to a point where that is only part of the answer. THe purpose of mankind is to have an intimate relationship with God. Giving him glory is part of that picture. God doesn't need us to worship him. The Bible says if we don't the rocks and the trees will. But he desires to have a relationship with us.

That is why he went the whole way to redeem us on the cross. One definition of love was given above, to put one's needs above their own. God did that. He came in the form of a man, and there are some who believe that Jesus went as far as completely laying aside all that makes him God for the time he was here on earth. He gave his life as a ransom for mankind so that man can have that intimate relationship that sin prevented. And what's more, when Jesus died, he said, "Father, forgive them, for the know not what they do". That is the true epitome of love.

And he did put his demand for worship below our needs. Our need to be rescued from the path of doom we were locked in. We are all going to worship him one day. The Bible says clearly that one day every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. If God was so concerned about us worshipping him, and not on love and relationship with us, why bother saving us from hell? It will get your mind thinking.

Even if I did believe that Jesus was the son of god (which I don't - C.S. Lewis said he must have been a liar, lunatic or lord, I think he lied with "good humanitarian intentions"), he may have saved some people from hell, but only after he put us there. It's like yanking someone out of the way of a car - after you put them there. Or maybe you accidentally made them trip in front of the car and let it hit you instead to right your mistake - which would make you imperfect.

Let's say I made alot of clones of myself, to serve me. And I told them if they followed my commands they would be fine, of and they can't say anything bad about me behind my back (deny me in front of others). If they do, I'm going to burn them at the stake. What kind of person would that make me? This is essentially what god did in the Bible, only in that version the final torment never ends.

What would you rather he did? Subject his creations to an unloving dictatorship? Sounds like fun.

I believe if he truly loved us he would never have created us.

I'm actually curious, Andrew, how have you come to the conclusion that God put us on the path the hell, only to save some later? I do regret to say that a number of Christians, let alone non-Christians, do believe this and preach it. But if you look deeper into the what the Bible says, this is not so. God did give us the ability to choose between right and wrong, and he did so knowing that we would sin. Why? You have to look deeper into what love is. I'm sure those on the Mawwage thread can explain it better than I (who is single), but our relationship with Christ is best describe as a marriage. And forced love, like in a tyrranical dictatorship, simply does not accomplish what is desired.

The truth is, God did not place us on the path of destruction to hell. We did. We made the choice to sin (or should I say, Adam did for us) and we are all responsible.

These questions also arise from a misunderstanding of what sin is. We all know sin is defined as anything that displeases God, but it goes much deeper than that. God is a God of perfection and when the standard is perfection, anything short of that cannot have that intimate relationship that God desires. They are incompatable. The wages of sin is death, and God has every right to wipe us off the map at any given time.

We always tend to think of God and his justice like this:
Officer: Sir/Madam, I stopped you for going 50 in a 35 mph zone.
Driver: Officer, I'm sorry, I'll never do it again.

If you go above the speed limit, you are speeder and you broke the law. If you lie, even a white lie, you are a liar. If you commit murder, you are a murderer. If you do it only once, you still wear that label. It does not chance the fact that the law was broken and justice is demanded. The justice that God demands is well described by CS Lewis in LWW. If the Deep Magic, instigated by Edmund's betrayal, was not fullfilled, everything would be destroyed because the Deep Magic HAD to be fullfilled. Same thing with God's justice and his standard of perfection. If he does not punish sin for what is due, he defies his own character which no longer makes him the God described in the Bible. It makes him inconsistent, changing, and susceptible of breaking his own word. How could anyone have faith in any type of diety with those characteristics? God has forgiven sins and postponed punishment, but that is because the payment for sin that is required was fullfilled when Jesus died on the cross.

People who go to hell are not under the covering of the price that was paid. And it is also important to note that God did not create hell for man. He created it for Satan and his demonic minions. His plan was to redeem all of mankind. 2 Peter says God is not willing that any would perish, but that all would come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. I know this will rile up the Reformed folk but I do not find it anywhere in God's character to predestine anyone for hell and not provide every person at least one chance to get saved. Some people only get one chance, but everyone at some point faces a cross-road where they must choose once and for all what they believe about Jesus. I've made my choice to follow Jesus. No I couldn't have done it without God giving me that ability, but he does give it to everyone at some point.

I'll say more later.

Well, as for me being a person who does not believe in moral rights and wrongs, the only reason we have to go to hell for "sin" is because god made it that way. I don't want to go into too much detail here as I know there are readers that do not want exposure here, but any sin we can commit is only an option because god made it that way. Anything we can do in our bodies, internal or external, is only made possible by (assuming he created us) god. So what, he creates us and declares pretty much all pleasures sinful, just to test us and see if our resolve is strong enough to be allowed in his presence? In fact even your own Bible talks abbout the illogicality (if that's even a real word, lol) of both a personal god and morality, I believe in 1 Corinthians chapter one.

One of my favorite quotes on this matter is by a man named Tom Robbins, "...religious multitudes are gambling the only
life they may ever have on a dark horse in a race that has no
finish line.” If someone wants to risk wasting their life on a god that, for all we know, may or may not exist, and even if he does, may or may not care about us at all, who am I to stop them? But I personally am not going to make that choice.

Does anyone here belive spirts and ghosts exist. I am kind of in the middle, I am a skeptic.

I believe in demonic entities, which can be called spirits or ghosts. I don't think that people come back from the dead to walk on earth and whatnot. In chapter 28 of 1 Samuel, when Samuel's spirit appears to Saul, I believe that was a demonic enitity imitating Samuel. Those practicing the black arts can't call people out of heaven as they please. So I do believe in a very large spiritual realm, but not that ghosts are people's spirits. A person's spirit is either in heaven or hell, not in a spirit realm or on earth.

Andrew: Your point of view seems very bleak. What's the point of living if you view life and God like that? I think that God created us originally to love us and for us to glorify Him. Also, to have a personal relationship with Him. I think that originally, everyone was immortal, and could enjoy kinship with God here onearth. When the human race sinned, we broke apart our connection with God. Then He had to fix our mistake. That verse that Fencer put, about God wanting to have us all saved, I believe applies to Jesus. Jesus died for all of us. His covering was enough, but I think that God only chose some. And since He's God, He can do this. I refer to Romans chapter 9

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

God is God. He can do what He wants with us. I think He truly loves those who love Him, and He chooses us. I think He has amazing grace for giving us salvation, even if it's not all of the human race. He didn't have to save any of us, we condemned ourselves. Even if He only saved one person, it's still being extremely merciful. Then people say, "why do we get sent to hell if we can't choose God?". i go back to Romans 9

19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

God created us mainly to glorify Himself. He already had everything He needed but

22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25As he says in Hosea:
"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people;
and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one," 26and,
"It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
'You are not my people,'
they will be called 'sons of the living God.' "[j]