DiGoRyKiRkE: I don't want this post to rely heavily on demon's giving us visions, especially as focusing on demons tends to be somewhat foolish for the Christian (as Christians cannot be possessed by them).

Sorry to jump in here but this sentence caught my attention. With regards to the 'focusing on demons tends to be somewhat foolish for the Christian' I wholeheartedly agree. That is, I have heard some people spend more time in prayer rebuking every demonic being that ever lived, than speaking to God. I was reading a chapter on this last night actually, in a book by Andrew Wommack called 'You've Already Got It'.

With regard to the second part of your statement, and at the risk of sounding heretic, I am not so certain that Christians cannot be possessed by demons. Yes, possessed, not just oppressed. There is an excellent book on the topic written by Derek Prince, -They Shall Expel Demons- and I think the scriptures speak for themselves in that book. Would I could pull them out right now and construct their truths! But at the moment I am just bringing it to your attention as you may be interested...he explains this far better than I can and if anyone is open minded they might give it a read.

I believe the distinction lies in the difference between a person's soul and their spirit; and this is the point brought forward by Prince and other Christians who deal with this on a daily basis who I've either met or live with. I do not believe that a person's spirit, once residing with the Holy Spirit, can be 'possessed'. (And it is worth taking a look at the translation of that word in the original Greek and Hebrew). However the soul (mind, will and emotions) quite possibly can -it is our flesh.

At first I thought the idea of a Christian being possessed by demons was not Biblical (at all; no way, what!?), but on further inspection I...am still inspecting.

It becomes complicated when you meet 'Christians ' who are clearly manifesting. Although I am in no way implying that these experiences are somehow primary -no; I believe Scripture holds that position. But it can get messy -where do you decide/draw the line at someone becoming a Christian> i.e., at what point do we become saved if you see a professing Christian writhing on the floor? It also further complicates things when you meet seasoned missionaries in countries like South Africa who have a large portion of their ministry dealing with demons and Christian people, and hands on experience plus Biblical interpretation leads them to believe that a Christian can become open to footholds, and then if not checked -possession can occur. I can understand better that a Christian's soul can become possessed as distinct to their spirit, than deciding when and how a person becomes truly saved; if that makes sense. That is, who am I to say to a manifesting Christian 'you are not a true Christian, for you manifested last night and my church teaches me this is incompatible'! When actually what Scriptural basis there is upon closer inspection seems to point the other way (again, see that book by Derek Prince I listed above -I will try and post extracts later).

Having said all that I do agree that Christians do give the whole demonic presence thing the wrong kind of attention, in part because I believe we fear what we do not really understand, and this is one of those areas that is somewhat shrouded in mystery for the average church goer. It is not until you realize your authority in Christ and keep your eyes and focus upon Him that you realize how there is nothing to fear. I say that but I am still learning it; I am no stranger to demonic oppression and the fear that it brings.

With regard to the second part of your statement, and at the risk of sounding heretic, I am not so certain that Christians cannot be possessed by demons. Yes, possessed, not just oppressed.

Hmm, do you really think that we can be posessed, but not oppressed, because I think just the opposite. We definitely cannot be posessed by demons, because we have Christ living within us. The demons and Christ are of such different natures that they would not want to be in close proximity to each other. I draw your attention to the Gadarene demoniac named Legion. As they would have no desire to be near one another it is a very sound logical assumption to make that Christ would not leave, but the demons would (unless you believe that the demons have the ability to move Christ away, which is a different matter entriely).

Now if, as you may be suggesting, demons inhabit our actual physical bodies, then I wouldn't consider it posession. When demons posess somebody they posess their will. Thinking of what a demon is and what it wants, it makes no sense for them to have a desire geared towards this nitrogen, carbon, oxygen and hydrogen "meat-suit" called a body. I would call this sort of demonic activity "oppression" rather than "posession."

Now the Christian is definitely going to be oppressed by the forces of Hell, much moreso than the non-believer. Think about it, why would Lucifer use up some of his valuable demonic resources on souls that he already has? He's going to use some of his resources to ensure that he keeps those souls from entering the kingdom of heaven, however, I think that a good deal of his forces also have the jobs of making the Christian life a difficult one. This fact is part of the huge philosophical question that one so often hears these days, "Why do bad things happen to good people." Of course, there's far more to it than demonic oppression, however I think it beneficial to point this out.

But as I said before, demons are pretty much inconsequential to the Christian. They can definitely oppress us, but so long as our strength is fixed upon Jehovah, they are only temporary annoyances.

I think that a good deal of his forces also have the jobs of making the Christian life a difficult one. This fact is part of the huge philosophical question that one so often hears these days, "Why do bad things happen to good people."

I think you'll do better to think of these as God's way of growing us, molding us into his image. I think there's some truth to what Nietzsche said about "whatever doesn't kill me, makes me stronger." God uses suffering, trials, and temptations to refine us and make us Holy.

This is a part of the Christian life that is hard: the call to personal holiness. It would be impossible without the Holy Spirit. It's the call to bring my will, personality, appetites, intellect, emotions, all of it under the Lordship of Christ.

TBG

I think you'll do better to think of these as God's way of growing us, molding us into his image.

If that's not what I said, than it is at least what I meant. By saying that demons were fairly unimportant to the Christian life, I was implying that the problems that come our way are more likely a test from above. After all, Satan had to ask God in order to tempt Job.

"The prince of darkness grim,
We tremble not for him.
His rage we can endure.
For lo, his doom is sure:
One little word shall fell him."

TBG

Digory: We definitely cannot be posessed by demons, because we have Christ living within us. The demons and Christ are of such different natures that they would not want to be in close proximity to each other. I draw your attention to the Gadarene demoniac named Legion. As they would have no desire to be near one another it is a very sound logical assumption to make that Christ would not leave, but the demons would (unless you believe that the demons have the ability to move Christ away, which is a different matter entilyrely).

I think we should clarify the terminology we are using here. But before that, I have to say that the proximity argument does not really sound logical to me. It is not a case of how 'close' the Holy Spirit and a demonic influence are and because they are by nature incompatible they cannot be in the same body. We are not talking about heaven, where this may be relevant. But we are talking about Earth, where Satan roams freely and where people ultimately govern their bodies -who they let in. I think part of this holiness/proximity argument stems from the idea that a demon is far worse than mere sin...and maybe it is but often demons have names and we refer to them as 'the demon of anger' or the demon of fear, of of untruths etc. When a person is under the influence of a demon, it usually means they are committing some sins, yes? Yet as a Christian when I commit a sin does God remove his Holy of Holy Spirits from me? For example, the 'demon of alcohol' may be operating if I become a drunkard (it's certainly not a gift of the Spirit!); and if I am an alcoholic before I become a Christian than does this mean I do not have to deal with the influences inside of me after I am born again? I don't think so. [Often this problem does should not arise; as we should be expelling demons before ministering salvation, but that doesn't seem to be the way the modern Church operates].

When I became a Christian, I repented of my sins, but did not become sin-free. If God is a Holy God and cannot stand to be in the presence of sin, merely by default, the Holy Spirit could not dwell in my body as I still sin. [EDIT: But as this is not the case, I can conclude that even if I am subject to the influence of an unclean spirit, the Holy Spirit could still dwell in me! Just as with sin -what makes a demonic spirit any more disgusting to God than sin?]

But back to the original point -I should not have used the word 'possessed'. This is because it has been (I believe) translated incorrectly, and Prince's book sums it up nicely:

Derek Prince: Unfortunately, there is another area of confusion that has not been cleared up in some of the modern translations. The Greek noun daimon (used to represent demons) gives rise to a verb daimonizo, which occurs about twelve times in the New testament. The obvious English equivalent of this verb is demonize, which the Collins English dictionary defines as 'to subject to demonic influence'. In the New Testament this verb occurs only in the passive form: 'to be demonized'. In the original KJV, it is translated regularly as 'to be possessed of [or with] a devil or devils.' Most modern translations have correctly changed devil to demon, but incorrectly retain the form 'to be possessed'.

The problem with this form is that, to English ears, the word possess immediately suggests ownership. To be 'possessed' -by a devil or demon -implies that a person is 'owned' by a devil or demon. But there is no basis for this in the Greek word daimonizo, which conveys no suggestion of ownership, but means merely 'to subject to demonic influence'.

Obviously the form of words is of vital importance. It is one thing to say to a person, 'You are subject to a demonic influence.' It is quite another to say, 'You are possessed by a demon,' or worse still, to say, 'You are possessed by the devil.'

Let me say emphatically that there is nothing in the verb daimonizo to imply possession. Personally I believe that every born again Christian sincerely seeking to live for Christ belongs to Christ and is owned by Him. It is monstrous to suggest that such a person belongs to the devil or is owned by the devil.

I know this long quote seems to contradict my earlier statements about Christians being able to have demons dwelling in them. But although I should have used 'demonize' rather than possess, I still do not mean merely 'oppressed/ion'. The following quote illustrates simply what the alternative is:

Prince: On the other hand, I know on the basis of my own experience, and of ministering to thousands of others, that a born-again Christian can be subject to demonic influences. Such a Christian undoubtedly belongs to Christ, yet there are areas of his or her personality that have not yet come under the control of the Holy Spirit. It is these areas that may still be subject to demonic influence.

As with being demonized, it is a choice on behalf of the person to let spiritual influences take hold of different parts of their lives -whether they be Godly influences or not is up to the person. I don't believe the Holy Spirit forces himself into every area of our lives (though I rather wish he did) -ultimately, we make those decisions to surrender all or some or nothing, and we are a work in progress; a process of santification means that we will still struggle with sin. Does this mean that when we act in sin the Holy Spirit disowns us, or does not dwell in us? I see no mention in the New Testament where God removes His Spirit from us even when we sin. No, He is far too merciful for that. However if we continually sin and do not seek repentance from God and are not sorry for our actions -than perhaps we choose to remove ourselves from God's Holy Spirit.

I know this all sounds a little confusing, but I seriously believed what you do now about Christ and a demonic influence not being able to inhabit the same person; but when you look at Scripture (which I have not brought up here yet but will do) and meet a true Christian who is also 'demonized' -not merely oppressed- you may begin to understand that maybe it is Church theology and not God's word that governs this idea in our minds.

[edited as much as possible; sorry if it suffers from clarity issues but I must now get to my lecture! also, you do not have to go into this if you don't wish to or are simply not interested; I shan't take it personally ]

When I became a Christian, I repented of my sins, but did not become sin-free. If God is a Holy God and cannot stand to be in the presence of sin, merely by default, the Holy Spirit could not dwell in my body as I still sin.

God cannot stand to be in the presence of sin, it is for this reason that He turned His back on His own Son, when Christ took on the sin of the world upon the cross. It is the reason that Satan was forcibly removed from heaven. I hope that I'm not misinterpreting you, but saying that God tolerates sin is absolutely wrong; there are evidences for this throughout the Scriptures.

I absolutely agree with you about demonic oppression, and I agree that newly converted Christians have yet to bring various aspects of their will under the will of the Holy Spirit, however the Holy Spirit still resides within the believer. However, for a Christian to be posessed (and when I say that, I mean Legionistically posessed) is not very likely to happen, in fact, it is an impossibility.

People definitely can open themselves up to demonic influences, but is a true Christian going to do such a thing? The person who was so sorely provoked by demons, obviously was never saved to start with, and therefore, doesn't fall under the same category as demonic oppression.

But oppression of Christians by demons (tempting them to sin, ruining their Christian efforts, causing them to stray from God, physical ailments, etc...) I do believe can occur, and does. . .readily.

However, as I said before, all of this is a somewhat frivolous debate, because "Greater is He that is in me, then he that is in the world."

First off, it's nice to see you again, StudyMate! Welcome back. Let's get into a big debate now

When I became a Christian, I repented of my sins, but did not become sin-free. If God is a Holy God and cannot stand to be in the presence of sin, merely by default, the Holy Spirit could not dwell in my body as I still sin.

This gives me the impression of a squeamish God who gathers His skirts around His ankles and shrieks at the notion of there being any sin in the room, much like a lady who is afraid of mice . The God of the Bible doesn't run away where sin in concerned. It's true that nothing sinful can be in His presence, but any weakness is entirely on the other side. His holiness is white-hot.

Do you have any Scripture to support your contention that the Holy Spirit either is 1) not in you AT ALL as a believer (presumably because you still sin) or 2) that He's in you till you sin, then He leaves, then He comes back when you've repented, and then He's gone again when you sin again? Where does it say that the Holy Spirit, who is given as a seal and deposit of our salvation (Ephesians 1), ever leaves us? It seems to me that you are reaching this conclusion using human logic without the illumination of Scripture.

Question: how can the Holy Spirit fulfill His role to convict us of sin and sanctify the believer if He flees us the moment we sin? To follow your logical sequence, if the Holy Spirit can't stand to be around sin, merely by default, He wouldn't be around to fulfill His role in the life of the believer, who is not yet sin-free. What exactly does the Holy Spirit do, then? And how are we to be sanctified without His indwelling presence? By our own efforts? God just kind of leaves us there to do the best we can in our sinful state?

Not at all. The idea is completely antithetical to everything the Bible teaches about the Christian life.

Regarding the whole Christians-possessed-or-oppressed-by-demons conversation, I just finished a fantastic book by John MacArthur titled Our Sufficiency in Christ. He writes,

You might be interested to learn that there is no illustration in the entire Bible of anyone casting demons out of a believer. The only people who ever legitimately cast out demons were Christ and His apostles. All the demon-possessed people they dealt with were unbelievers. Furthermore, they usually cast out demons totally apart from the will of the unbeliever. Jesus and the Twelve were exercising the gift of miracles. They were authenticating messianic and apostolic credentials, not establishing a pattern for us to follow.

Our instructions for fighting Satan are only to resist him, being strong in the faith, with a clear conscience and a commitment to truth and holiness. It is as simple as this: If there is sin in your life or if you tolerate error, you give place to Satan. If you are strong in the faith and resist, he will flee (James 4:7, see also 1 John 2:14). (pages 235-236)

Actually, I'd love to quote that entire chapter on spiritual warfare; MacArthur is so right on. It isn't about technique; it's about character. Resist the devil and he will flee.

Can Satan or demons influence anything in the life of a believer? Certainly; there are several examples in Scripture of this happening (Job, Peter, Paul). But demonic forces can't do anything without God's express permission. Satan had to ask God if he could afflict Job, and Jesus says to Peter that "Satan has asked to sift you as wheat" (emphasis added). And Paul's "messenger of Satan" was permitted in his life for the express purpose of keeping him humble and showing him the sufficiency of God's grace.

If Satan ever does have an influence on our lives as Christians, you can be sure that it is with God's permission, and God is using Satan to accomplish His own purposes for us. We don't need to be afraid, or study special techniques on how to combat demonic forces, or mess with any of that stuff. Everything we need is in the Word, including instructions for dealing with fallen angels.

I don't like too much emphasis on the devil, actually. Does he really deserve an entire book devoted to him and his ways? Scripture never gives him that much attention/glory; why should we?

I don't like too much emphasis on the devil, actually. Does he really deserve an entire book devoted to him and his ways? Scripture never gives him that much attention/glory; why should we?

This is a GREAT observation, and one I agree with 100%. (Of course, if I didn't agree with it 100%, it wouldn't be GREAT, would it? ) I was reading the introduction to Beth Moore's Praying God's Word the other day, and was really struck by something she says on a similar matter:

It is never the will of God for warfare to become our focus. The fastest way for us to lose our balance in warfare is to rebuke the devil more than we relate to God.

I went through an experience several years back where a teacher basically took my class out on a camping trip and made us sit around the fire telling "demon stories". I'm not entirely sure what his purpose was, except to scare us, remind us that demons are everywhere, and make vague threats about them "coming to get us" if we ever started to fall away. This was wrong on a number of levels, one of which was simply that he seemed to forget that God is everywhere too, in a way that demons could never be, and that He has ministers in this world as well. Ever since then, I've been pretty skeptical about many Christians' fascination about the spiritual realm, especially the darker side of it. Maybe it's wrong of me, but there it is.

Great stuff, WiseWoman — and Lysander, it’s been ages since I’ve seen you around here! Welcome back. And The Black Glove too. With these familiar faces back just after the semester’s end, I should start looking forward to the summer just as eagerly as any student. ...

StudyMate, it’s great to see you here. As WiseWoman said, let’s get into a big debate now. Why? ‘Cause we’re a big happy family.

Already folks have made some good points above, starting with DiGs in his (very Biblical) contention that demons cannot possess/unduly oppress/whatever a Christian because the Holy Spirit now owns that person. My hope is not to repeat all those points, but to back them up with Scripture and some kindly meant though direct questions in response to your thoughts, StudyMate.

Aw, crud. Yes, it’s rather long. It’s a vital issue; I felt it had to be. I’m glad you won’t take it personally, StudyMate! I must admit I find this encouraging to sort through (again!) and write about, knowing that Christ has defeated demons, putting them to “open shame” (Colossians 3)!

Body/soul/spirit?

We are not talking about heaven, where this may be relevant.

This may be the first and only time I’ll say this: I’m not sure what Heaven has to do with it.

Evidently I missed something. But one reminder just in case, which has some bearing on the topic: the Bible gives no room to splitting the soul and body. I’m not sure where the “trichotomy” of “body, soul and spirit” came from either. This seems like really, really splitting hairs in a way that could sound smart but that detracts from Scripture’s simplicity (which is already complex enough).

In Heaven now, believers are in some state apart from their bodies. 1 Corinthians 15 and 2 Corinthians 5 are among the go-to passages showing how the resurrection means Christians will be given glorified bodies, to dwell in (“clothed,” Paul says) forever in a New Heavens and New Earth.

I mention that because, though I’m not sure, I wonder if some kind of Gnostic-type “the spirit is where the real action is and the body is irrelevant” thinking could come up here. ...

Whose Devil was that again?

But we are talking about Earth, where Satan roams freely and where people ultimately govern their bodies -who they let in.

“Satan roams freely”? I don’t think you meant this, but it sounds like the Devil is unrestrained? He’s not, for God is far more powerful and has shamed the Devil and his demons (Colossians 3).

Black Glove already quoted Martin Luther. I’ll add to that: “The Devil is God’s devil.”

Um, and do people “ultimately govern their bodies” and “who they let in”? More on this later, but Scripture is clear that it is God who governs everything. (And if He wants in, He will get in!)

And the verses WiseWoman quoted above about resisting the Devil is typical of how Scripture approaches evil spirits’ abilities now. It doesn’t offer even minimal manuals on how to fight them, “bind” them, keep them from gaining spiritual footholds in your life, whatever. Instead Scripture says in effect: Look to Christ, Who saved you; become more like Him and live in His grace, and oh, by the way, resist the Devil because he’s disgusting. (And by the way, where is that spiritual battleground? In the area of doctrine — that is how wrong ideas primarily sneak into Christians’ minds and the Church.)

‘The devils made me do it’?

I think part of this holiness/proximity argument stems from the idea that a demon is far worse than mere sin...and maybe it is but often demons have names and we refer to them as 'the demon of anger' or the demon of fear, of of untruths etc.

Frank Peretti did a wonderful job in his fictitious spiritual-warfare-themed novels of portraying demons who specialize, or are named after, certain sins. But the idea is outside of Scripture. It’s not wrong or heretical; it’s just outside Scripture. And it could be the case that by speculating too much in this direction, we start to think more and more that specific sins originate from demons, not ourselves.

I hope the quote below is not a case in point ...

For example, the 'demon of alcohol' may be operating if I become a drunkard (it's certainly not a gift of the Spirit!); and if I am an alcoholic before I become a Christian than does this mean I do not have to deal with the influences inside of me after I am born again?

How would a Christian know if a “demon of alcohol” is involved?

Does Scripture talk about demons causing specific sins, even additions? Maybe they are, but does Scripture say to deal with the demons? Paul called himself “chief of sinners.” Did he even partway blame demons, or say the Church needed to deal with his demons? Not at all. He blamed himself. Demons may or may not have egged Paul on, but his sins were his own fault.

I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!

The Apostle Paul, Romans 7: 22-25

It would be wrong to assume no demon is involved in any believer’s sin struggles. It would also be wrong to assume demons are always involved. Either way, Scripture doesn’t talk about the need to expel demons. Inspired by the Holy Spirit, the epistle writers present the Gospel as the solution for human deadness-in-sin, not dealing directly with demons.

Interestingly, I found this very point made much better in a 1993 essay by Kim Riddlebarger. While praising Frank Peretti for writing “a first rate novel,” he still pointed out the risks of going too far:

[Christians too often] assume that evil and suffering are the immediate result of this invisible cosmic struggle between angels and the demonic forces of the prince of darkness. The problem is not with the inherent sinfulness residing within the shadowy darkness of the human heart and the resulting rebellion against God and his word. Instead the problem is with someone or something else–the demonic. There is suffering and evil in the world because of Satan and demons, not because I too, along with all of my fellow human beings, are guilty with Adam for rebelling against God.

Unfortunately too many Christians are wont to blame their problems not on their own indwelling sin (I like to call it sin-shrapnel), but on surrounding spiritual forces. It’s the same as saying, “People aren’t basically bad, it’s their Environment that makes them bad.” (And here I thought it was the secular humanists who had a corner on that idea!).

Such Christians may too easily believe that someone who claims to be a Christian is actually saved, or that every Anecdote claiming that “believers” have been controlled by demons is valid.

Many “possessions” could be mental illnesses too. Horatio Spafford, who wrote the beloved hymn “It Is Well,” went a fair bit insane in his later years and died alone in the Holy Land while suffering delusions. I do not believe he was possessed. He was sick. Many others may be the same.

Possession vs. ‘demonizing’

What seems to be sadly the case is that some Christians are not getting their views on demons and what they can do from Scripture, but from books and teaching materials, and ever-present Anecdotes about what demons can do and whether they have possessed real Christians.

Often this problem does should not arise; as we should be expelling demons before ministering salvation, but that doesn't seem to be the way the modern Church operates.

But does the Bible instruct believers to expel demons before ministering salvation?

Anyway, I think some churches, counselors, ministry leaders and so on, do operate this way.

The other day I picked up a book at random in Walmart purporting to be about Christian spiritual warfare. My eye fell upon several Anecdotes about demons controlling (possessing or whatever) professing Christians. Based on these, the authors concluded that Christians could be controlled against their will by demons. They also had an interesting rainbow-style line drawing showing the “spectrum” of supposed demonic control, from temptation and influence to complete “demonizing”.

A central question, StudyMate: do the teachers/authors to whom you’re listening or reading have a good grasp of Who started a person’s salvation in the first place? Was it God, or the sinner?

If God began the good work, and is faithful to complete it in His people (hey, that sounds familiar ...) and if nothing, not even evil spirits, can separate His people from His love (also familiar!), then a Christian cannot, and will not want to, let a demon into his life to influence/control him. If such a Christian does sin, it is his fault, and like the apostle Paul, should look to Christ, not exorcism, as the way to “mortify” that sinful desire and let his/her mind become more like Christ’s.

But if a sinner began his own good work, he who began that good work could get sidetracked or even abandon it anytime he likes, and “fall away” from God and into the influence of Satan again. However, Scripture is clear this is not the case. God preserves His own. Romans 8 is just one passage proving it.

I should not have used the word 'possessed'. This is because it has been (I believe) translated incorrectly, and Prince's book sums it up nicely

Perhaps I need to research further this whole “the Greek term has been translated incorrectly” thing. But my guess it is irrelevant, for the argument may not be only whether a demon can possess but whether a demon can somehow gain influence/control over a true Christian (as opposed to digging up from the Christian’s heart his own sin-shrapnel and lingering weaknesses to use as temptation).

StudyMate, you’ve made it clear you don’t believe Christians can be demon-possessed (if I’ve read you right). And though the words here can be tricky, maybe we can just agree on this question: can demons “demonize” or controllingly influence Christians at all?

I don’t see a lot of difference between “demonizing” and possession, but I’m trying to work with you.

Ultimately it seems the difference, if there is one, doesn’t matter. Scripture doesn’t say demons can “demonize” or possess believers. Demons can tempt, cajole, maybe even oppress, but they cannot control a Christian. At this point, unfortunately, I believe the late Derek Prince’s basis for concluding otherwise has been trying to reconcile the Anecdote of purported demon possession with Scripture. I wonder if he had a Biblically high view of God’s salvation, and a Biblically low view of man’s nature?

Rock beats paper?

I know on the basis of my own experience, and of ministering to thousands of others, that a born-again Christian can be subject to demonic influences.

What if my experience says real born-again Christians are never influenced/controlled (even if not technically possessed) by demons in this way? Rock ties with rock. Who would win?

Experience proves nothing. It can be confirmed with Scripture, but that’s all.

I’ve heard a lot of things “proved” from someone’s own experience. One article I read was by a mother who claimed she could sense a demon hiding inside a children’s praise-and-worship cassette tape. A popular Christian homeschool-oriented leader spread the frankly un-Biblical idea that certain dolls could be infested with demons. He also claimed (I heard him say it myself) that yes, he saw a Christian actually possessed by a demon — he let his Anecdote beat Scripture.

And again, many other people say their “experience” proves that sin our lives could be the fault of demons, not our own fault (blaming something else for our sins goes back to Genesis 3!).

But Paul didn’t blame demons, even in the case of a Corinthian church man who was shacking up with his own mother-in-law (1 Corinthians 5). He blamed human sin. If demons were involved, they were tangential — dangerous and disgusting, but tangential. The answer isn’t exorcism. It’s the Gospel.

So what about all those stories out there? Here’s Don Stewart’s advice (from Can a Christian Be Demon-Possessed?:

What About Stories Of Believers And Demons?

If this is the case, then what about the stories that circulate with respect to believers and demon-possession. Examples are provided of believers who exhibit symptoms of demon possession. When people give examples of believers being possessed, there are a number of questions that immediately arise, "Were these victims of demon possession really believers?" "Were they actually possessed with a demon, or is there another possible explanation for their behavior?" Since the Bible gives no support that a believer can be possessed by a demon, some other explanation must be in order.

And in the game of Anecdote, Christian Teaching, Scripture, which always wins? Paper (Scripture) covers rock (Anecdote) and always shatters scissors (Christian Teaching). Not vice-versa.

The Spirit’s influence

I don't believe the Holy Spirit forces himself into every area of our lives (though I rather wish he did)

He does take His sweet time, doesn’t He? My guess is that He works slowly because if He “fixed” everything all at once, we would either quickly become self-righteous on this Old Earth, or worse, we would lose out on the far greater benefit of looking to Christ out of desperation, the way Paul did.

ultimately, we make those decisions to surrender all or some or nothing

As DiGs said so charmingly the other day — whoa, Nelly!

Perhaps you didn’t mean it to sound this way? Do Christians really “ultimately” make decisions what to surrender to God? I don’t believe that’s how Scripture sees it.

[W]ork out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

The Apostle Paul, Philippians 2: 12-13

However if we continually sin and do not seek repentance from God and are not sorry for our actions -than perhaps we choose to remove ourselves from God's Holy Spirit.

Romans 8 would contradict this. Scripture talks about grieving the Holy Spirit by our sin, but it never says He leaves true Christians — much less allows room for demons to influence/control/“demonize” or do anything other than dig into our own sin-shrapnel to tempt us.

Hank Hanegraaff answers it this way:

First Corinthians 6:19 declares that the body of the Christian is the temple of the Holy Spirit. That is to say, Scripture makes it clear that believers are indwelt by God: the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (John 14:17, 23). To conclude, therefore, that Christians can be demonized is to admit that demons can inhabit the very temple of God Almighty.

This is indeed difficult to believe, given Jesus' insights on possession: "When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are safe. But when someone stronger attacks and overpowers him, he takes away the armor in which the man trusted and divides up the spoils" (Luke 11:21-22). Clearly, the "strong man" who guards Christians is the sovereign God Who created and sustains the heavens and the earth, Who is unable to be overpowered or plundered (2 Chr. 20:6).

Final questions

I know this all sounds a little confusing, but I seriously believed what you do now about Christ and a demonic influence not being able to inhabit the same person; but when you look at Scripture (which I have not brought up here yet but will do) and meet a true Christian who is also 'demonized' -not merely oppressed- you may begin to understand that maybe it is Church theology and not God's word that governs this idea in our minds.

And I know that this is a complex issue, and with limited time to hash it all out in writing — but some Scripture would be good to have. Otherwise it could be too easy to fall into the “this is a problem and We Must Fix It” way of thinking, which too often can sadly depart Biblical balance.

StudyMate, are you sure you’re not allowing your “rock” of Anecdote, or someone else’s bucket of “rocks,” to cover the “paper” of Scripture? That’s my main question.

A second question would be: Are we sure we’re not allowing “deliverance ministry” excesses, such as the un-Biblical ideas of Neil Anderson, to affect our views? In the 1970s to ‘80s there was a huge emphasis in Christendom of figuring out what demons were up to and how to defeat Satan. Some of that is still with us today. But a lot of it was based on total fraud and hucksterism. Mike Warnke, a Christian comedian, made up an entire life story about leading a coven and sacrificing people; he has long since been discredited, but his deceptive book The Satan Seller (interesting title ...) sold at least half a million copies. Others during this upheaval have gave “testimonies” of being afflicted with demons or habits that proved to be total lies. ...

Thirdly: Do we see God as powerful enough to preserve His own? Or is He rather cowardly, as WiseWoman said above, backing away out of Respect for Human Free Will at the sight of a demon horning in on His Spirit’s territory? No, Scripture is clear: He keeps His own, always.

A spiritual-warfare ‘formula’

I can’t help but point this last thing out from the Prince quote ...

The Greek noun daimon (used to represent demons) gives rise to a verb daimonizo, which occurs about twelve times in the New testament.

If only 12 is the amount of times Scripture talks about demons’ roles, whatever extent they are, that is very scant evidence. You’d think if this topic was so important, God would have said so, or at least added qualifications that demons can still “demonize” you to all those verses His Spirit inspires that says He is the One Who saves His people and will always keep them united to His Spirit!

A while ago I gave this some thought, while writing about the wrong belief I used to have that “binding and loosing” were about ways to fight Satan. (My full column is here: Should Christians ‘bind’ Satan?.)

Real warfare

Consider the time and effort some well-meaning and zealous Christians give to battling demons directly. But compared with that, direct demon-fighting is topic that is mentioned almost in passing throughout the New Testament.

Yes, the Devil and his demons are real, they are dangerous, but they are at best bit players. Christian should pray to Christ, never direct prayers or commands against Satan. “Binding and rebuking” is about church discipline and authority, not bossing fallen angels or fighting temptation. And the famous “full armor of God” portrayal in Ephesians 6 shows us that spiritual warfare is primarily about learning and living the Sword of the Spirit, the Word of God, and battling false doctrines that infect our minds, hearts and lives.

So here are three spiritual warfare “formulas” for casting out questionable assumptions about spiritual warfare.

a. Number of Scriptures teaching this > number of Scriptures about demons.
b. Epistle instructions for proper exorcising of demons = 0.
c. Christians possessed or controlled by demons = x/0.

I've had too long a day to respond to points of interest, so all I'll say is that it's a good thing The Good Dr. was only citing rock-paper-scissors and not rock-paper-scissors-lizard-Spock!

{Standard 5-point R-p-s-l-S:

Scissors cuts paper
Paper covers rock
Rock crushes lizard
Lizard poisons Spock
Spock smashes scissors
Scissors decapitate lizard
Lizard eats paper
Paper disproves Spock
Spock vaporizes rock
Rock crushes* scissors

Note: some denominations of RPS claim the correct translation is "crush", others that it is "blunts." Schisms result. That was before the question arose as to whether Spock "smashes" scissors or "utilitizes". This is why there are said to be 30,000+ denominations of RPS+/-LS.}

You may now carry on with real life.

Hi wisewoman; thanks for the welcome; it’s lovely to see you & I’m glad to be back!

Part I -replying to ww and Lys

wisewoman: Do you have any Scripture to support your contention that the Holy Spirit either is 1) not in you AT ALL as a believer (presumably because you still sin) or 2) that He's in you till you sin, then He leaves, then He comes back when you've repented, and then He's gone again when you sin again? Where does it say that the Holy Spirit, who is given as a seal and deposit of our salvation (Ephesians 1), ever leaves us? It seems to me that you are reaching this conclusion using human logic without the illumination of Scripture.

*puts on debating hat* Whoa! I was not saying that at all; in fact I was arguing the opposite! I'm sorry if that was not clear. By carrying DigoryKirke’s point that we can not be indwelled with the Holy Spirit and be demonized at the same time; I was trying to use that same logic with regards to sin –and as you have pointed out, it just doesn’t work. I wasn’t actually supporting it! I’m nutty, but I’m not that nutty. I mean, if our body is a temple of the Holy Spirit; how does he stand it when we sin? I believe through his grace and mercy...and really, what is an unclean spirit but a form of sin entering our lives? I mean, it's not as if having this little demon on my shoulder is bad in itself; it is the sinful fruit it is producing in me (e.g. a lying spirit) that is affecting me. I mean, I believe we are a work in progress. If while having the Holy spirit inhabiting me I cannot suffer from demonic oppression in my body; should I also not suffer from sickness and disease? After all, they accompanied each other hand in hand in Jesus' day and neither of them are fit for the temple of the Holy Spirit, right? I believe if we suffer from demonization or sickness in a particular area of our lives; we need to seek God about it and His Holy Spirit will reveal what we do not understand. I.e. Healing, and freedom!

ww; We don't need to be afraid, or study special techniques on how to combat demonic forces, or mess with any of that stuff. Everything we need is in the Word, including instructions for dealing with fallen angels.

I agree with you. The only thing is, I didn’t go looking for ‘emphasis on the devil’ and I don’t believe that should be supported at all. The reason I began questioning the area of demonic oppression/demonizing at all was because it showed up in my face! Until I needed to seek answers, until I met that first good friend of mine, that first Christian so in love with God, until they started manifesting and operating under a demonic influence –I would not seek out this sort of thing. But when I needed answers, I believe God answered me through this teaching which happens to be choc full of scriptures.

ww: don't like too much emphasis on the devil, actually. Does he really deserve an entire book devoted to him and his ways? Scripture never gives him that much attention/glory; why should we?

I agree with you 100%. But please believe me when I say that this book is not out there to 'glorify the devil'. However, because Derek Prince’s book uses scripture to illuminate an issue that I previously didn't understand, and was consequently afraid of; I found it helpful! Like with any other book that delves into the word for the purpose of teaching. I don't think that by writing a book on a specialised topic, by default all the book is promoting is that one topic. It teaches us not to focus on demons actually, and from someone who dealt with ‘exorcism’ throughout most of his life, that’s an amazing and Scripturally supported thing to hear. As Dr. Ransom quoted; "Greater is He that is in me; than he that is in the world!"

I guess my question to you is; what do you do when you meet a person who claims to be a Christian yet still manifests at times? For me it is easier to understand they are a demonized Christian than to claim they are not saved. That last option is a very serious thing to say to any Christian; let alone one who is trying to dedicate their lives to God and missions. This area became complicated; scripture answered this for me by looking beyond the church’s answers. Of course I am open to another interpretation but I have not found it yet.

Lys: Ever since then, I've been pretty skeptical about many Christians' fascination about the spiritual realm, especially the darker side of it. Maybe it's wrong of me, but there it is.

First of all, that sounds like a terrible experience and I’m sorry you had to be put through it! As for being skeptical; I don’t blame you, but I honeslty can’t be skeptical anymore. Once you have been growled at, threatened, physically choked, seen people froth at the mouth, supernatural strength flow through them, roll around writhing on the floor –you can’t help but seek God and I mean that very sincerely. I would never (repeat: NEVER) seek this stuff out of my own accord; and it is not something I obsess about or am afraid of. Nor do I spend time 'binding' and rebuking everything in my prayer life -I find that sort of prayer rather comical, actually, I've never been that type of person and I'm not about to become so.

At any rate; my conclusion thus far and I suppose the real point is that if someone starts manifesting –whether they call themselves a Christian or not- use your God-given authority (it helps if you know how to!) to set that person free; making sure to help them make God Lord of their lives. As in, don’t just leave them empty or something worse will come upon them –“When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none. Then he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order. Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first’. Matthew 12: 43-45). But we all knew that. I was just wondering WHY we have this perception that a Christian, or at the very least someone who calls themselves a Christian, can't be demonized. What is the scriptural basis for this; because up till now all my life I've only heard 'because Christ and a demon are opposites [scripture ref=many]; so it follows they cannot occupy the same person!' [scripture ref=nil]

p.s. I've just read through all your comments, Dr. Ransom and am considering them very hard. I just thought it was important to clear up the above first. I will reply soon!

Edit: Part II

In response to your queries regarding my reliance on anecdotal evidence being greater than my reliance on Scripture; I would like to point out the following scenarios and scriptures & would be interested in hearing what you and others think. I hope you're not too put off by the fact that I am quoting Prince quoting Scripture, it's just that he put it far more eloquently than I tried to do.

It's Scripture Time!

Simon the Sorcerer and the Ministry of Phillip

Prince: According to Mark 16: 15-16 a Christian is, among other things, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.'

Such a person had heard and believed the Gospel, been baptized and is therefore saved. Can a person like this subsequently need deliverance from demons? This depends partly on how the person was brought to salvation or new birth.

In the ministry of Philip from Samaria, the people received manifest deliverance from demons and later believed and were baptized in water (see Acts 8:5-13). It would be reasonable to assume that most of them needed no further deliverance.

Yet even here there is one noteworthy exception. Simon the Sorcerer was among those who believed and were baptized. Later, however, when he offered Peter money for the power to impart the Holy Spirit to people. Peter said to him, "Your money perish with you...You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God." (Acts 8:20-21). Wouldn't it be rash to assume that Simon no longer needed deliverance from demons (considering that he used them to profit -my thought here; not Prince's), even after he believed and was baptized?

Suppose, however, that Philip had followed a different pattern of evangelism -one that is common to our day. Suppose he had preached the Gospel to the people of Samaria and then, without dealing with the demons, had invited people to come forward, say a prayer, sign a decision card or receive instruction from a counselor. What would have been the result? They would have been saved or born again, but they might still have needed deliverance from the demons that were in them before they became Christians.

I want to emphasize that I am not criticizing this kind of evangelism. I have practiced it myself. I am merely pointing out that it does not necessarily produce the results that followed the ministry of Philip in Samaria. It leaves open the possibility that people who respond may still have demons that need to be dealt with. This does not mean they are not Christians. It means that some of them may still need deliverance.

...

So, without specific reference to demons, let us consider more generally what happens when a person is born again. The Scripture does not suggest that new Christians are automatically exempt from from all the consequences of what happened to them before they became believers. Consider a woman who suffers from chronic sinusitis caused by bacteria. She becomes a Christian but the sinusitis continues. The natural explanation would be that the sinusitis is still caused by the same bacteria. No one would dispute that conclusion on doctrinal grounds.

Now let us consider a man who has severe emotional problems caused by demons. The man becomes a Christian but the problems continue. Is there any scriptural reason to question that his emotional problems are still caused by demons? The child of alcoholic parents, for example, may have been exposed to demons of anger and fear. If he later becomes a believer but continues to be subject to uncontrollable fits of anger or fear, the obvious explanation is that the demons of anger and fear need to be driven out.

But God be thanked! As Christians we have available the authority of Jesus Himself, and we can deal with all the forms of demonic pressure to which we may have opened ourselves. That authority is not effective, however, until it is exercised in active faith.

The doctrine that Christians are no longer subject to demonic activity can lead to one or the other of two unfortunate results. Either a believer may yield to demonic pressures with some comment like, "I can't help myself, that's just the way I am." Or they may seek to suppress the pressures within, and in doing so expend much spiritual energy that could have been used for more positive purposes. In either case the practical and scriptural remedy is for such a person to treat demons as demons and use his or her God-given authority to drive them out.

HAVING SAID ALL THAT (emphasis StudyMate’s) we must ALWAYS leave room for God's sovereignty.

Who else?: There are many warnings to Christians to be on their guard against the attacks of Satan. Peter, speaking specifically to Christians, says:

'Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world.' [1 Peter 5:8-9]

There are two parts to Peter's admonition. First, we are to be self-controlled and vigilant. Otherwise we will not detect the presence or activities of demons. Second, we are to resist demonic pressures, taking an active stand against them. If we obey these instructions, we shall be victorious. But if we fail to be self-controlled and vigilant, we will fail to recognise and resist our enemies. Then they will invade us and seek to destroy us. The most serious mistake we can make is to act as if there was no danger.

Certain passages in the NT warn us explicitly against exposing ourselves to demons. One tool Satan uses regularly for this purpose is deception. In 1 Timothy 4:1 Paul’s warning is urgent: “Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.”
Paul speaks here about people who, through yielding to the influence of demons, ‘depart from the faith’. Obviously they could not depart from the faith unless they had been in the faith. As Christians they had apparently opened themselves up to deceiving demons and consequently turned away from their faith in Christ. Our only safeguard is to be vigilant at all times and resolutely reject all demonic pressures and deceptions that come against us.

Paul gives another similar urgent warning to the Christians at Corinth –even though some today teach that Christians should be delivered from all fear of deception. Obviously Paul had not received that teaching! Speaking to Christians who were the fruit of his own ministry, he writes, “I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve…so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.” (2 Cor 11:3)

In the next verse Paul warns against any false teacher who may come along: “For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you may well put up with it!” (Verse 4).
There are three parts to Paul’s warning. First, the deceiver preaches ‘another Jesus’. Second, those who accept this deceitful message ‘receive a different spirit’ than the one they received previously. And third, they embrace a ‘different gospel’ from the original.

Through Paul’s ministry these Christians had received the Holy Spirit. Therefore, when he spoke of a ‘different spirit’ that they had not received, he was referring to a spirit that was unholy- that is, a deceiving demon.

Here is a clear example of how Christians, who have been born again and received the Holy Spirit, can be tempted into receiving a false spirit –a demon. What would open the door to the demon? Clearly, accepting a message that presents ‘another Jesus.’ This is the root of the problem. Once Christians put their faith in ‘another Jesus’ they receive a ‘different spirit’ and begin to believe a ‘different gospel’.

The Need for Ongoing Obedience

Some Christians place little emphasis on the need for a life of continuing obedience and holiness. Yet Jesus challenged the people of his day with this question: “Why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do the things which I say?” [Luke 6]. To call Jesus ‘Lord’ without obeying Him is hypocrisy and provides no protection from the attacks of Satan.

Some Christians claim they are automatically protected from demonic attack by the blood of Jesus. God does indeed offer us total protection through the blood. But here again, this provision depends on our meeting His conditions.
The Apostle Peter tells us we are ‘elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father…for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ.’ [1 Peter 1] An obedient lifestyle is the condition for being protected by the blood of Jesus. His blood is not sprinkled on those who persist in disobedience. This is exemplified by the record of the First Passover in Egypt, when Moses told the Israelites:

“And you shall take a bunch of hyssop, dip it into the blood that is in the basin, and strike the lintel and the two doorposts with the blood that is in the basin. And none of you shall go out of the door of his house until morning.” [Exodus 12]

The Israelites were protected not because they were Israelites, but because they obeyed God’s instructions concerning the blood, and stayed inside their houses. They were on the right side of the blood. If the firstborn had gone out of their houses, they would have suffered the exact same fate as the Egyptians.

The same applies to us as Christians. Our protection from Satan does not depend solely on our being Christians, but on our obeying God’s directions. The blood, as I said, does not protect those who continue in disobedience.

As a following note, consider the example Paul gives of this disobedience in 1 Cor 5. After passing judgement on a Christian man in the church for ‘having his father’s wife’ by ‘removing him from among you’ –that is, expelling him from the Church- he says something very interesting about why: “…hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.” I find this to confirm, rather than disaffirm', the point that a so called born again Spirit-filled Christian, even one of Paul’s own coverts, can still be handed over to Satan yet have God watching over his spirit. How is this possible except that in the flesh, this man had opened himself up to a 'different Jesus' and 'different spirits'? Adding the thought that God does not remove His Holy Spirit from us -how do we reconcile this example except to understand that a Christian is vulnerable to demonic influences and that the Holy Spirit is still able to dwell in them? I don't know if I fully understand that one, but it seemed relevant! Especially considering Dr. E's point that God does not let us fall away but rather 'is faithful to complete the good work' etc.

Part III: Responses to Dr. Ransom

Um, and do people “ultimately govern their bodies” and “who they let in”? More on this later, but Scripture is clear that it is God who governs everything. (And if He wants in, He will get in!)

I was referring to the fact that God is a gentleman; i.e. doesn’t push Himself upon us or into our lives unless we allow him to. I did not mean to question His sovereignty! As for Satan roaming freely in this world; I meant his time is not yet come for eternal punishment and that he is “"the prince of this world" (John 14:30) and "the god of this age" (2 Corinthians 4:4) is referred to in scripture. And doesn't God 'want in' for all of mankind? Yet He doesn't always 'get in'? I mean, don't we have a choice and all that?

The Good Doctor: But does the Bible instruct believers to expel demons before ministering salvation?

I would say that I think it does. Simply through the way Jesus and his disciples/apostles ministered. The way Jesus ministered was by demonstrations, and then explanations. That is, he would cast a demon out of someone, or heal a sick person, (i.e. minister directly to their needs) and then proceed to explain to them the message of repentance! The very act that launched his ministry was the expelling of a demon from a man in his synagogue; which interestingly would be the modern day equivalent of a church...it didn't happen on the streets; which is my point exactly -what do you do when it happens in a Church? Your explanations seem to suggest that I deny it.

Dr. E: Does Scripture talk about demons causing specific sins, even additions?

I don’t think demons ‘cause’ anything initially; but if you give them entrance and a ‘foothold’ than yes they can co-operate with you to sin. I don't think that demonized man who was bound in chains (Mark 5:3) was like that because he wanted to be; nor do I think it was because he was simply 'taken over' one day. I think he ended up that way from his co-operation (allowing a 'foothold' to grow). Here is a brief list of spirits associated with sins:

Old Testament:
-Jealousy/feelings of jealousy: Numbers 5:14, 30; Judges 9:23
-Ill will/evil/distressing evil: 1 Samuel 16:14-23; 18:10; 19:9
-Lying/deceiving/lying: 1 Kings 22:22; 2 Chronicles 18:20-22
-Perverse/distortion/dizziness: Isaiah 19:14
-Heaviness/fainting/despair (what we would class as the mental illness of depression, perhaps?): Isaiah 61:3
-Harlotry: Hosea 4:12; 5:4
-Unclean/impurity: Zechariah 13:2

New Testament
-Mute/robbed of speech: Mark 9:17
-Deaf and dumb: Mark 9:25
-Infirmity/causing sickness/crippling: Luke 13:11
-Divination/predicting the future: Acts 16:16
-Deceitful/deceiving: 1 Timothy 4:1
-Fear/timidity: 2 Timothy 1:7
-Error/falsehood: 1 John 4:6

Dr. E: Either way, Scripture doesn’t talk about the need to expel demons. Inspired by the Holy Spirit, the epistle writers present the Gospel as the solution for human deadness-in-sin, not dealing directly with demons. ….But does the Bible instruct believers to expel demons before ministering salvation?

I see your point that Christians can be too ready to blame their sins or the reasons for them on demonic influence, fallen nature etc. I am wholly against that where it is being used as an excuse; and oft times it is I’m sure. But the Scripture does talk about the need to expel demons, why would it if they were not an issue at all –yes, even for the modern day believer? Jesus seemed to do it before ministering salvation (he hadn’t been crucified yet!) quite clearly in the following verses:

“Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, the third day I shall be perfected.’ Jesus, as recorded in Luke 13:32. I don’t think we have reached the third day –Jesus has not yet returned. So, until then, we are to follow in his ministry.

Quoting from Prince: “Further, when the time came for Jesus to commission and send out disciples, He instructed them to continue in exactly the same pattern of ministry that He Himself had demonstrated. To the first twelve apostles He imparted a twofold authority: first, to expel demons; and second, to heal every kind of sickness and disease (see Matthew 10:1). Then He gave them explicit instructions as to how to use this authority: “And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand’. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons’. (Matthew 10:7-8).”

I believe I have somehow distorted Prince’s book because my writing seems to suffer from clarity. Please don’t disregard or write his teachings off in this area because of my interpretations! Just because he has dedicated a book to explaining demonic oppression, does not mean he advocates making it of prime importance in your Christian life –it’s not like that at all.

The Good Doctor: If only 12 is the amount of times Scripture talks about demons’ roles, whatever extent they are, that is very scant evidence. You’d think if this topic was so important, God would have said so, or at least added qualifications that demons can still “demonize” you to all those verses His Spirit inspires that says He is the One Who saves His people and will always keep them united to His Spirit!

I’m sorry, but that particular form of the word demon is ‘only’ used 12 times. The other names; unclean spirit for example, are used over 20 times, but according to you that probably still isn’t enough for us to pay it any worthwhile attention? And maybe you’re right; but where it does show up we should take it’s relevance on board –what better way to realise our authority than to have examples of it shown in the Word? I would not know otherwise!

You make an interesting point when you say that God would have added qualifications if this topic was so important and that if demons can still ‘demonize you’. If I refer you back to the list of scriptures I gave above regarding unclean spirits and their ‘names’; than I believe he did add qualifications. Also every place where God, through his word, talks about opening ourselves up to sin, or our daily process of sanctification, or to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, or to remind us to keep our eyes and focus upon Him –all of these things admonish us to run a better race.

When Paul talks to the church of Ephesus he encourages them to 'not give the devil a foothold' (Eph 4:27). Well, he is talking to Christians here, and considering there is only one Satan and he cannot be hounding everyone one at any one time; I assume his demons would play a part? And the word foothold -I'd be interested to see its Greek and Hebrew roots. Because to me it suggests an inroad; not merely a bang on the head. And the way I see it, by default this means not giving place for any demonic openings in my life by what I do. I can’t very well start practicing witchcraft or committing other sins and expect not to be affected because ‘God is sovereign’ and ‘Greater is He that is in me than He that is in the world’. It’s not that God isn’t in ultimate control, it’s that He has put in place specific laws and principles that when violated, will ultimately affect us –He doesn’t step in every time I’m about to sin nor does this mean He does not care. I believe the same principle applies to allowing entrance to demonic influence.

Dr. Ransom, I believe that you know that demons are at least real and are still operating

Dr. E: Christian should pray to Christ, never direct prayers or commands against Satan. “Binding and rebuking” is about church discipline and authority, not bossing fallen angels or fighting temptation. And the famous “full armor of God” portrayal in Ephesians 6 shows us that spiritual warfare is primarily about learning and living the Sword of the Spirit, the Word of God, and battling false doctrines that infect our minds, hearts and lives.

This is an excellent point and I agree wholeheartedly! Again, I’m not suggesting we give them any sort of prevalence at all. But we are to be aware that they are affecting people’s lives –I believe both non-Christian and Christian- and that where we encounter this oppression we are to face up to it. The only reason I popped in here was to say; ‘what do you do when you meet a believer who is manifesting?’ and ‘maybe that changes my theology about Christians not able to be demonized' –because I don’t think I can decide that they aren’t really a Christian! And 'look, there’s a book about this and it’s based on Scripture –I shall point it out because it’s helped me to help others’. I didn’t mean to suggest that I go around blaming and binding demons for everything or that we are powerless vessels with no authority over them.

Whoa, so much to answer! Thanks for your thorough response, Matette! There's so much here. I will try to hit on the salient points.

I mean, if our body is a temple of the Holy Spirit; how does he stand it when we sin? I believe through his grace and mercy...and really, what is an unclean spirit but a form of sin entering our lives?

I'm glad I misunderstood your point about the Holy Spirit! But I'm not so sure about the contention that an unclean spirit is just a form of sin. An unclean spirit is a fallen angel, a created being just as we are. It is a person. It is not a form of sin. A sin is any action or thought that violates God's law. I don't think we should conflate the two because that will lead to confusion.

I mean, it's not as if having this little demon on my shoulder is bad in itself; it is the sinful fruit it is producing in me (e.g. a lying spirit) that is affecting me.

The demon on your shoulder can't produce anything in you without your conscious decision to sin. Demons cannot possess or control ("demonize") a Christian; there is no indication in Scripture of that ever happening. I know you don't intend it to sound this way, but it's almost as if you want to shunt the blame for the believer's sin onto a shoulder-demon who is somehow controlling that believer's mind/heart. In most cases, it is our own sinful desires that produce temptation (James 1:14).

If while having the Holy spirit inhabiting me I cannot suffer from demonic oppression in my body; should I also not suffer from sickness and disease? After all, they accompanied each other hand in hand in Jesus' day and neither of them are fit for the temple of the Holy Spirit, right?

But you are trying to conflate the two! It's true that demonic possession was accompanied by physical illness in some cases in the Bible. But not all physical illness is caused by demonic possession and/or influence. It is a function of our fallen, decaying bodies that are still bound over to death. A person can be sick for reasons that have nothing to do with demons (how much credit do we want to give them, anyways?).

I'm reminded of the story in John 9, of the man who was born blind. Did demons have anything to do with his physical state? No. It was purely so that the glory of God may be displayed in his life. Physical illness may be because of demonic interference, but there is absolutely nothing in Scripture that ties physical illness and demonic activity together so finally. You can have one without the other, so a true Christian can suffer in his/her physical body without it being a function of demonic control.

I was just wondering WHY we have this perception that a Christian, or at the very least someone who calls themselves a Christian, can't be demonized. What is the scriptural basis for this; because up till now all my life I've only heard 'because Christ and a demon are opposites [scripture ref=many]; so it follows they cannot occupy the same person!' [scripture ref=nil]

A person who calls him- or herself a Christian (but who is not) can be demonized, absolutely! I don't think anyone here is arguing against that. And actually Christ and Satan are NOT opposites; that would put Satan, a mere created being, on the same level as Christ, the uncreated and eternal God. For two things to be opposites, they must be comparable on every level. Obviously this is not the case with Christ and Satan... but do you see how ideas like this can lead to an unconscious elevation of Satan and his power?

And as for your question about where in Scripture it says that Christ and Satan cannot occupy the same person, there is simply no case of this occurring anywhere in Scripture. On the contrary, the only people in Scripture who are ever demon possessed or demon controlled are unbelievers. The burden of proof is on you and Derek Prince to prove that it can happen in a redeemed, Spirit-filled believer. I've read the sections you quote of his book (thanks for those) and I remain unconvinced that any real case has been made using Scripture correctly. Usually it's not a good sign when the teacher has to start re-translating a crucial passage just to make Scripture match his new teaching.

But when I needed answers, I believe God answered me through this teaching which happens to be choc full of scriptures.

I don't mean to put down Christian teaching; I read books on Christian doctrine all the time myself and have benefited greatly from the work of several authors. But they are not inspired. And their books can be full to bursting with Scripture and still handle it wrongly. Just because a teaching is full of Scripture doesn't mean that Scripture is being interpreted properly. We always have to give the Word preeminence over any human interpretation of it. When we have to start twisting the Word, making it perform hermeneutical acrobatics, there's a problem with our interpretation. We don't interpret Scripture to fit events. We interpret events according to Scripture. Where is your starting point? Is it your friend's condition, or is it the Word?

I guess my question to you is; what do you do when you meet a person who claims to be a Christian yet still manifests at times?

I haven't yet met that person, but I would go to the Word. No good tree can bear bad fruit; nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.

We don't manifest the Holy Spirit perfectly at all times, but the fact remains that when He is given to a person at the moment of salvation, He is there to stay. Ephesians 1 talks about the Holy Spirit as a pledge, a deposit, an earnest guaranteeing our salvation. He is a non-refundable down payment. Even if the unthinkable, the unbiblical happened, if God were to go back on His word and renege on His promises of salvation to His children, by the legal language used in that passage the Holy Spirit would STILL be ours! That's the permanence of His dwelling in us.

And this is where I want to deal with the story you mentioned in Matthew 12. The demons can only take possession of the house if the house is empty; i.e., if the Holy Spirit is not in residence. As He permanently indwells every true believer, there is no room in the person for a demon. The Holy Spirit protects us from demonic control.

That isn't to say that demons can't have any contact or influence with us at all. I've already mentioned Job, Peter, and Paul, whose lives were affected and specifically targeted by demons. But I think (in the huge posts you had to reply to!) you might have breezed past an important thing there. None of these three men was controlled by demonic forces. God allowed this demonic activity because He had reasons for it. He used it mightily in the lives of all three of these men. Nothing demonic could be done to them without God's express permission.

If your friend is a true believer and there is demonic activity in her life, you may be positive that God has allowed it for the purpose of her further spiritual maturity and His ultimate glory. If, however, she responds to demonic activity by behaving in a demonic fashion, she is not a believer. There is no indication whatsoever in Scripture of a true Christian being controlled by demonic forces. It just isn't there.

In contrast, someone in the Bible who was controlled by a demon was Judas (Luke 22:3; John 13:27). Would you say that Judas was ever "saved"? Did he believe and was he baptized (as Simon the sorcerer was)? I imagine Judas probably was baptized along with the rest of Jesus' disciples, and I doubt he joined the Twelve thinking, "great! now I'm in. I can now betray Christ." He probably thought he was a true disciple, at least in the beginning (see the self-deception here?). But he was never saved, and the fruit of his life proves it.

A lot of people have deceived themselves into thinking they are saved when really all they have done is conform outwardly to "Christian" things such as church. The inner man has never been regenerated by the Spirit of God. Jesus said that many would call Him "Lord, Lord" and even talk about all their great Christian achievements, and yet He never knew them. It's fascinating that one of these "talking points" of self-deceived Christians is that they could cast out demons in Jesus' name:

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

So yes, we can totally deceive ourselves and others about our salvation. We can even show flashy spiritual demonstrations like casting out demons that would seem to unquestionably authenticate our faith. But those "proofs" mean nothing. That's why the New Testament is full of injunctions for us to test our faith, to examine ourselves, to make sure of our salvation by looking at our obedience (2 Cor. 13:5, Hebrews 6:11, 2 Peter 1:10). If we love Christ, we will obey Him. Has your friend done this? Have you honestly evaluated her life in light of Scripture and concluded that the fruit of her life is indeed the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23)? Not that she will be perfect because the process of sanctification continues until our physical deaths, but there WILL be fruit if she is connected to the Vine (John 15). The fruit is inevitable; it WILL be there, because it is not the person producing it, but the Holy Spirit within that person. My husband likes to say, "Fruit happens."

For me it is easier to understand they are a demonized Christian than to claim they are not saved. That last option is a very serious thing to say to any Christian; let alone one who is trying to dedicate their lives to God and missions.

If the Word says it, we should not be afraid to. It wouldn't be our words anyways, but His. It cannot be about what is easier for us. We should speak the truth in love, of course, but the New Testament writers had no compunctions whatsoever about urging their readers (who were often personally known and much beloved) to examine themselves to see if they were in the faith. It may not be a palatable truth, but how much worse to go along with someone's self (or demonic) delusion that he/she is saved when that isn't the case! That isn't loving at all; in fact, it's the opposite of loving. If you really care about someone, you will speak the truth to that person no matter how much it costs you personally... even if it costs you that relationship. Jesus had no problem doing this in John 6, even though verse 66 records many people's response to what He was saying: "From this time many of His disciples turned back and no longer followed Him." (Wow, they were even called "His disciples"! But obviously they were never truly converted; true saving faith always perseveres to the end because it is the Holy Spirit producing it, not the person).

All you can do is point that person to the Word and its many passages that give us checkpoints to examine our hearts and lives. That is the loving thing to do. We can't compromise the truths of Scripture to explain away something inconvenient, no matter how much we want to.

This area became complicated; scripture answered this for me by looking beyond the church’s answers.

I'm not sure why the belief that demons cannot control Christians is characterized as something the church came up with that has no basis in Scripture. Has anyone here arguing this point appealed to any church authority? No; we've been making our points based on what the Bible says. We don't need to reinvent a translation to make it work with our beliefs. The Bible is pretty clear about this issue.

At any rate; my conclusion thus far and I suppose the real point is that if someone starts manifesting –whether they call themselves a Christian or not- use your God-given authority (it helps if you know how to!) to set that person free; making sure to help them make God Lord of their lives.

"If you know how to"... what is that but an emphasis on technique? Every Christian has every spiritual resource in Christ to deal with anything in this life (2 Peter 1:3). Also, note that the only people who legitimately, effectively cast out demons in Scripture were Christ and His disciples. As John MacArthur wrote in the passage I quoted earlier, they were establishing their Messianic and apostolic credentials by casting out demons, NOT establishing a pattern for us to follow. Our only direct instructions in Scripture for dealing with the devil are in James 4 "Resist the devil and he will flee from you." How do we resist him? The verses around verse 7 tell us. We are to submit to God and draw near to Him. We are to wash our hands of sin, make a conscious choice to turn from it and be done with it. That's how we deal with demonic forces.

Christians are already "set free" from the devil by God's gracious work of salvation in us. Non-Christians cannot be set free from demons by any words or names we might invoke (see the story of the seven sons of Sceva in Acts 19). Salvation is the issue. When a person is saved, that person is free of demonic control forever. Demons may try to tempt or otherwise interfere with that Christian, but they cannot control him/her. And demons can't do anything, not even mere temptation, without getting God's permission first. We need to just trust Him. He is in control, not Satan!

That's why this section of Prince's book bothers me so much:

Such a person had heard and believed the Gospel, been baptized and is therefore saved. Can a person like this subsequently need deliverance from demons? This depends partly on how the person was brought to salvation or new birth.

In the ministry of Philip from Samaria, the people received manifest deliverance from demons and later believed and were baptized in water (see Acts 8:5-13). It would be reasonable to assume that most of them needed no further deliverance.

Yet even here there is one noteworthy exception. Simon the Sorcerer was among those who believed and were baptized. Later, however, when he offered Peter money for the power to impart the Holy Spirit to people. Peter said to him, "Your money perish with you...You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God." (Acts 8:20-21). Wouldn't it be rash to assume that Simon no longer needed deliverance from demons (considering that he used them to profit -my thought here; not Prince's), even after he believed and was baptized?

Actually, I think it would be rash to assume that Simon's sin was directly caused by demons, as Prince assumes. It is rash to assume that when God saves someone, there is anything else that has to be added to that work of salvation for the person to live a victorious life in Christ. We receive the Holy Spirit of God at the moment of salvation. How can we think that He is not sufficient, that we need some kind of extra deliverance? Where does Scripture speak of this? It doesn't; this entire case is built on Prince's interpretation of the passage. I would go so far as to say this is heretical because it denies the sufficiency of our salvation in Christ. Salvation by grace through faith isn't enough, according to Prince. You need something more. Yikes!

It leaves open the possibility that people who respond may still have demons that need to be dealt with. This does not mean they are not Christians. It means that some of them may still need deliverance.

This really disturbs me, Matette. When we are saved, we are completely delivered, translated from the kingdom of darkness into His marvelous light (1 Peter 9-10). Scripture NEVER speaks of some type of second deliverance. Christ's work on the cross and His salvation in us was once for all. It perfectly accomplishes God's salvation in us. We are saved in the full sense of the word, from everything within and without that would threaten our eternal state.

As for the whole idea of being handed over to Satan, nowhere in Scripture does this mean that a saved person is given over to demonic control. He or she may be subject to demonic temptation as an instrument of judgment, sure. Just look at Saul in 1 Samuel 16. It was very clear that God was allowing an evil spirit to terrorize (which doesn't necessarily mean control) Saul as an act of chastening and punishment for Saul's wicked actions. But Saul did not learn from the experience, falling deeper into sin and ultimately committing suicide. The fruit of Saul's life proves that he was not among the redeemed.

MacArthur writes of Satan's being used by God to purify the church:

God even uses Satan to judge people in the church. Paul wrote to rebuke the Corinthians because a man in the church was living with his father's wife. Such a shocking, incestuous relationship had to be dealt with. What did Paul do? He told the Corinthians, "I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord Jesus" (1 Cor. 5:5). The man may have been a believer whose spirit would be saved but whose flesh was going to be destroyed. Even Paul seemed unsure; he referred to him as a "so-called brother" (vs. 11). Either way, the destruction of the flesh was to be carried out by Satan, but it was God's judgment on that man. (page 231)

I know you believe that the fault is on our side, not God's, if we "open ourselves" to demonic control. But that idea does say something about God... He is either not strong enough to protect us from the evil one, or He allows us, His children, to be controlled by Satan. The idea is disgusting. Basically it's the idea that our "free will" somehow abrogates God's authority. He can beat Satan and rule the cosmos, but when it comes to that inviolable, sacred, sovereign thing, our supposed free will, He is helpless. That is not the picture of God that the Word shows us.

I will pray for the salvation of your friend. May God deliver her from the kingdom of darkness and bring her into His marvelous light.

Good night Ethel! These are some of the longest posts I've ever seen

I want to point out just a few things:

I guess my question to you is; what do you do when you meet a person who claims to be a Christian yet still manifests at times? For me it is easier to understand they are a demonized Christian than to claim they are not saved. That last option is a very serious thing to say to any Christian; let alone one who is trying to dedicate their lives to God and missions. This area became complicated; scripture answered this for me by looking beyond the church’s answers. Of course I am open to another interpretation but I have not found it yet.

There is a very simple answer to this that requires no Scriptural backup (or at least I should hope so). We are still living in a fallen world, we are still flawed creatures who have yet to attain perfection. Another answer to this is the following: When we become Christians, Christ does not "remove" the sin nature from us. True, we're supposed to be a "new creature" in Christ, but to carry out that verse to its logical end, would be like commanding the newly-born-again Christian to never sin again for the rest of their lives, or else they become a walking contradiction. When the Holy Spirit enters into our hearts upon the acceptance of the finished work of Calvary as payment for our sins, we automatically become a new creature, it doesn't take any work from us. To assume the opposite would imply that works (striving against sin in itself is a work) are necessary to not only gain, but to keep one's salvation, when the Scriptures clearly says that "it is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast."

I don’t think demons ‘cause’ anything initially; but if you give them entrance and a ‘foothold’ than yes they can co-operate with you to sin.

Absolutely. . . .sort of. I do think that demons can cause things to come into our lives, but we must remember that all temptations demons cause is allowed by Christ. The Scriptures also say that God will never give us a greater temptation than we can bear, and that alongside each temptation He will provide a way of escape. However, I believe that we as humans can make things a bit easier for the demons through our actions and through that wretched sin nature. But what true Christian willingly opens themselves up to demonic influence? If I understand you correctly, every sin that a human being commits has a demonic tie-in, when that simply isn't true. We live in a fallen world as a fallen people, and therefore sin is everywhere. Opportunities to sin lurk just around the corner. Satan has complicated matters by making sin fun, as well as making it easy. In that way, I suppose I can agree with you that Satan does get into each sin, however, to clump all sins (including the sins of born again Christians) together as demonically influenced is not only an oversimplification, but it's probably one of the best strategies of hell.

You see, if a man can be convinced that "My good is my good is Christ's good," you have an innocuous enough statement in which you admit that while you have done something of credit (eternally speaking) that ultimately, the root of it is Christ, which is a correct assumption to make, as He is the embodiment of all good things. However, what tends to happens (particularly amongst Christians who have this sort of mentality) is the line of thinking that "My bad is Satan's bad," which leaves out the fact that your bad is your bad. We as Christians lay claim to all of the good things, while shifting all of our bad things over to Satan and his influence. Of course, when viewed alongside (or in contrast to) the way in which we view positive actions the inherent logical fallacy becomes blatantly obvious. If this line of thinking is carried to its end, then you have the following situation: Christian X sins, and blames Satan, and therefore can go on feeling no guilt (after all it really isn't his fault). Therefore he can continue to sin lessening the response that the Holy Spirit makes each and every time (thus "grieving the Spirit" so to speak), and while the Christian will acknowledge the fact that there is sin in his or her life, he can merely brush it off by saying that, "I haven't been doing very well lately," which is nothing more than a bland and empty saying, which really has no pentitent meaning to it. After this, the Christian can be led in a dozen different directions which can include apathy, depression, despair (which, according to Jack Lewis, "Is worse than any of the things that causes it" and "The thing that love bleeds out when it is cut open,"), etc. . . etc. . . etc. . . The whole thing boils down to a simple bait and switch fallacy that Hell has perfected over the millenia, and which seems to plague modern Christians (do to our own chain of reasoning in the first place). Now, if I worded that correctly (which very rarely happens) it becomes quite obvious that although the initial step is a simple sin, it becomes the responsibility of the sinner to carry it to this point, as an influence by a devil or demon at any point along this logical road would likely result in "seeing the light" so to speak.

An unclean spirit is a fallen angel, a created being just as we are. It is a person. It is not a form of sin. A sin is any action or thought that violates God's law.

Quite an excellent point, my dear! Sin in itself cannot be anything. Sin and sin alone is the opposite of God, and when one embodies the exact opposite of God there is absolutely nothing left; not even existence itself. Therefore, while devils can be embodiments, and therefore the representatives of what sin is, they cannot be sin themselves, for if they were. . . they simply wouldn't exist (and I don't think anybody's doubting that at this point ).

If while having the Holy spirit inhabiting me I cannot suffer from demonic oppression in my body; should I also not suffer from sickness and disease? After all, they accompanied each other hand in hand in Jesus' day and neither of them are fit for the temple of the Holy Spirit, right?

This is a logical fallacy my friend as your comparing two things that are incompatible. You are comparing a temporal and tangible thing like the human body (cells, neurons, atoms, etc...) to the intangible thing called our soul. Just because somebody gets sick doesn't equivocate demon posession. If that logic was true than it could just as easily be said that "This apple tastes nothing like an orange, and therefore cannot be a REAL apple."

One thing that I want to continue to stress as we discuss this topic is this: demons can do NOTHING without permission of God. God never tempts us, but He can test us, and demons are the tools that He uses to do this. Therefore, focussing on demons is tangential to focussing on Christ, His Word, and His Father. Their actions are ordained by God, and therefore studying God will ALWAYS yield more fruit than studying demons.

And one more side-note that I wanted to add is this: Studymate, I hope that you don't feel as if we've "ganged-up" on you. Even though the three of us are mods, I hope that you can see past that, and see the fact that we are your brothers and sisters in Christ, which is a much better hat to wear, than the "mod" hat .

Lysander, it’s been ages since I’ve seen you around here!

Yes, well, it's been ages since I was last on NWeb, but I think it's even longer since I frequented the CRAP thread. Looks like I've been pulled in again! This always happens, and then I drop out of again after awhile. Usually all I have to offer are personal opinions and experiences (and, this time, Beth Moore quotes ), but I enjoy the discussions.

[off-topic] Wow, and here I thought Rock-Paper-Scissors-Lizard-Spock was created specifically for The Big Bang Theory. [/off-topic]

As for being skeptical; I don’t blame you, but I honestly can’t be skeptical anymore.

I want to make one thing clear: I am skeptical of certain Christians' emphasis on demonology (discussions of which in general I try to stay out of, lest I encourage such undue emphasis! ), not of the existence of demons or their ability to operate in this world. And ... I had more to say but I can't right now for some reason. I've written several observations and deleted them all. Maybe I'll be back later.

Dr., thank you very much for that explanation of rebuking. I had a very charismatic roommate this semester, and was rather uncomfortable when at one point he "rebuked" my illness, although I couldn't really advance any argument against that - in contrast to when he prayed that I would "overcome it by my faith."