@Fencer: your stirring last post made me think of Joshua and Caleb speaking to Israel about conquering Canaan. They said something in Numbers 14 about the giants in the land being "bread for us."

@Bookwyrm: I'm not keeping score. I'm not comparing my lack of converts with others'. I'm thinking of Hannah and Rachel who saw they had no children and prayed for God to do something about it. If we're in Christ, we should bear spiritual fruit = souls and virtues ... whether we're the sowers or the reapers. Lately, I've been barren in both.

@TBG: when I said "hell isn't cards, drinking, and smoking," I wasn't referring to moderation. I was referring to unsaved extended family members, some of whom are now deceased, who did these things in their natural lives and thought hell would be just the same. Obviously, they're wrong. And now some of them know it.

TBG has put it very well, giving excellent practical ways to evangelize. It is in your every day interactions with people. You don't even have to preach the Word. You just need to live your life as though your every breath is determined by it. I've had a number of people tell me they knew I was a Christian without me saying a word about it, because I live with the joy of the Lord and show my passion for Christ in how I live. I do need to be more vocal about what I believe and why, but at the same time I have gifts in other areas. Not everyone is meant to be an evangelist per say, but everyone does have a role in developing the Body as well as having a role in leading people to Christ.

I really like the way you put this. I have often felt guilty because I don’t go on mission trips or have any desire to go on mission trips (local (in the state / country) or otherwise). People seem to think that if one isn’t active in some huge and /or highly visible way one isn’t really doing anything or doing enough. I do my best to live like a Christian and set a good example. I would love to get a job teaching in a Christian school so I can be open about my faith and teach children about Jesus. So far the best I’ve been able to do is teach Sunday school and sub in some Catholic Schools.

More on evangelizing. I’ve been approached a few times by people who go door to door or wander the streets. One day my mom and I were on the way to the vet with at least one cat in the carrier. I think it was a time when something was actually wrong with the cat instead of us just taking her for a checkup. A man approaches us (in the middle of the street if I remember correctly) and wanted to talk to us about Jesus (or something about religion). My mom said we were busy. He said in this shocked voice “Too busy for Jesus?” I was disgusted by this and rather angry. I wouldn’t recommend that approach. On Wednesday two women came to the door. One of them hardly spoke at all, and the other one was a rather poor speaker. She was trying to list prophets and missed “Isaiah.” I think she was trying to remember him when she said “Israel” (right after she had said Jacob). She would bring up a subject and then let it drop rather quickly. She said that unless there is a prophet on earth, Christ’s light isn’t on earth and that the dark ages happened because there wasn’t a prophet. That made it sound like God abandons the earth at certain times which is not at all as I understand things. (Not to mention that theory goes against what we learned in history about the Dark Ages.) Of course I couldn’t think of anything good to say at the time. I’m not buying into the there has to be a prophet line. I don’t think there are prophets anymore – since we already have the Bible and it is not to be added to or subtracted from. My sister and I had fun discussing the conversation afterward (My sister was listening from the living room) and thinking of things that it would have been interesting to have said.

If one is going to go door to door, one should be very well prepared because one is likely to face people who would rather be doing anything else.

@Pattertwig: there are still prophets. They're listed as one of 5 "offices" in the church, along with pastors, teachers, evangelists, and apostles [Ephesians 4]. And what's the purpose?

For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.

This hasn't ceased in the church, has it?

The difference is that prophets' messages aren't added to the Bible. It's all extra-biblical revelation. It must line up with the Word. Period. If it doesn't, the message isn't from God. But prophecy has not ceased.

And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions.

This hasn't happened yet, at least not on a wide scale. It's all last days stuff. But we're approaching those last days pretty fast, if we aren't already there. "Daughters shall prophesy": that includes you and me.

I think the people you encountered sound like Jehovah's Witnesses = non-Christian cult. If I'm wrong, someone please correct me.

Sometimes, missions trips are all I want to do. Missions is my heart. I've wanted to be a missionary's wife for nearly a decade now. But is everyone called to overseas missions? No. Cause what you're doing is missions. It's just not overseas. Missionary = Christian witness to the ends of the earth, wherever God calls us.

@Pattertwig: there are still prophets. They're listed as one of 5 "offices" in the church, along with pastors, teachers, evangelists, and apostles [Ephesians 4]. And what's the purpose?

For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.

This hasn't ceased in the church, has it?

I meant more along the Old Testament kind of prophets when I said that. From what I understand, the kind of prophets mentioned there clarify the Word rather than bring a specific message / foreseeing a specific event. They do not write new books to add to God's word. I'm a little unclear about exactly what a "prophet" is and what it means to prophesy. I looked it up briefly in my German Bible and it seems that it does have different meanings in different contexts / times.

I think the people you encountered sound like Jehovah's Witnesses = non-Christian cult. If I'm wrong, someone please correct me.

Close, the were from the Church of Latter Day Saints. Joseph Smith was the "prophet" they were pushing. Actually one of the first things I did after tehy had left was get out our Kingdom of the Cults book.

Cause what you're doing is missions. It's just not overseas. Missionary = Christian witness to the ends of the earth, wherever God calls us.

Thanks! That makes me feel better.

Sometimes, missions trips are all I want to do. Missions is my heart. I've wanted to be a missionary's wife for nearly a decade now. But is everyone called to overseas missions? No. Cause what you're doing is missions. It's just not overseas. Missionary = Christian witness to the ends of the earth, wherever God calls us.

I agree with what you're saying here, but I have nil desire or gifts to be one. In my youth group growing up almost all my friends wanted to be missionaries in some form or capacity and I felt very out of place at times because it was something that never clicked with me. I understand the work that's done is of infinite (literally) importance, but I never felt any pull in that direction and I'd usually just stay quiet when my friends were talking about it. I felt very bad about it for many, many years, as though there was something defective with me because I didn't want to be a missionary. Actually I wanted to be an astronaut, but that's beside the point . The one thing that always drew me was the idea of maybe teaching a Sunday school class. Give me a stack of books, maps, reference materials, a whiteboard (or chalkboard), timelines, history texts, tons of pictures, and any of that and I'll eat it whole (figuratively speaking ). Goodness, I had at one point, whole classes worked out in my head

The difference is that prophets' messages aren't added to the Bible. It's all extra-biblical revelation. It must line up with the Word. Period. If it doesn't, the message isn't from God. But prophecy has not ceased.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I think some things I have read in the recent past would fit the bill, but as you say it must line up exactly with Scripture. Many years ago there was a televangelist (I want to say Orel Roberts, but I could well be wrong) said that he had to receive a donation of X million dollars or "God was going to take him home". Obviously statements like that should raise some red flags, especially since the way he worded it made God sound like he was demanding a ransom for his safety ). It has to line up exactly with the Bible, or it's no good. In that televangelist's case I think he raised some of the money, but not all of it and in the end God didn't put him out of commission (as though achieving Heaven is a thing to be avoided ).

I'm a little unclear about exactly what a "prophet" is and what it means to prophesy.

I always thought it was a person whom God allowed glimpses of the future, or perhaps to broadcast Divine warnings through (or both at the same time) to a target audience.

I looked it up briefly in my German Bible and it seems that it does have different meanings in different contexts / times.

Achtung!

My understanding of prophecy is not that of glimpses of the future or warning. Prophecy, at least since the Bible has been completed, is simply the revealed Rhema Word of God. When someone makes a prophecy about someone or something, it could be past, present, or future. My pastor's wife is deemed a prophetess and she doesn't tell us what will happen in the future. She says what God is telling her about a particular thing. Now prophecy does include glimpses of the future or Divine warnings, but that is just part of the picture.

Shadowlander, I'm not sure if you've realized it, but you are being a missionary even if you are teaching Sunday School. Right now, God is calling me to go into teaching, specifically under math/physics. I will likely have to go into a public school, which would mean I would not be able to teach creation as I believe it to be, but I can use my faith and my knowledge to point my students to ask questions in the right direction.

But not everyone is called to be a missionary as we normally think of it. There are a lot of 'behind-the-scenes' work that must be done for the 'front-side' to work. It takes the entire body to work together with each part doing its part to make it work. The speakers out in the streets all must have a supporting structure that the audience or even the team doesn't see. The key to the mindset of the 'behind-the-scenes' people should be one of doing the job so everyone else doesn't know you are back there. When you watch a movie and are hit by a moving scene, do you think 'Wow, that director did a great job!'? Usually not. You think of the actor in front of the camera pulling it off. Same concept for some of us. It is the mindset of a servant, in which we only do that which we ought and are expected. It's all God doing the work anyway.

I gotta get to bed. I won't be back on for a while, as I will be at my Intervarsity Chapter Camp with no expected internet for a week. It's going to be a great time and I'll catch back up on this topic when I get back.

Pattertwig's Pal wrote:
I'm a little unclear about exactly what a "prophet" is and what it means to prophesy.

Shadowlander wrote:
I always thought it was a person whom God allowed glimpses of the future, or perhaps to broadcast Divine warnings through (or both at the same time) to a target audience.

That's a definition that is more common among non-denominationals than among mainstream Christianity, for some reason. For example, it has been argued that rapturists are overly involved with foretelling and learning “the system,” as if Christianity is a game of chess or cards. “Popular dispensationalists either implicitly or explicitly make Bible prophecy a central feature of belief and practice, tacitly making Christianity into a matter of statistics and probability” (from Carl Olson's Will Catholics be left behind, page 98). This is a common complaint among nonrapturists: that rapturists allegedly value, study, and preach more about the second coming of Christ than the first. They're hardly the only branch of Christianity to do that, of course. They're just more honest about it.

Olson comments that “although many passages in Scripture are predictive in nature, the intention of such prophecy is not to provide a detailed blueprint of the future” (page 99). When people have all the facts, it leaves no room for faith.

If there was one major concern among the Biblical prophets, it was ethical conduct. No Biblical writer ever revealed the future merely for the sake of satisfying curiosity: The goal was always to direct God’s people toward right action in the present. The overwhelming majority of Biblical prophecy had nothing to do with the common misperception of “prophecy” as foretelling the future. The prophets told of the future only in order to stimulate godly living.

--Chilton, as quoted by Carl Olson (page 99)

As to Shadowlander worrying about why he didn't feel a calling to become a foreign missionary, don't worry. There are many callings:

For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith; if service, in his serving; or he who teaches, in his teaching; or he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.

(Romans 12:4-8)

Yes, even giving money is a gift of grace! It's just that sometimes we forget because people don't give graciously.

One thing that may, or may not, be helpful is to think of modern day prophets like this. What were the jobs of the prophets of yore? I think you'll find very few instances where they "predict the future" although they did definitely have that gift (a gift that I don't believe is with us any more). Upon closer readings of the Scripture it becomes evident that prophets and prophetesses were servants of God who were close enough to His divine will to be "channels of his will" so to speak. The prophets of old testament times were pastors, advisors, teachers, etc... all rolled into one, and held together by a life that was both directed, and in line with the will of the Almighty. It is this sort of prophet that I believe still exists today.

As for "Divine Revelation," I don't believe that that sort of thing happens anymore. I don't believe that God literally "Speaks" to people (aka, an audible voice), nor do I believe that he shows people visions of the future, and here's why. We have to ask ourselves why God did this to people back in the old testament days. It was always a way of instruction, or warning. However, we do not need this any more, because we now have the completed Word of God. God does not need to speak with us in an audible fashion anymore, because His will, His desires, His instructions, His precepts, and all other aspects of the visions/dreams/etc... of the old testament are present within His completed word.

Right now, God is calling me to go into teaching, specifically under math/physics.

HOLD ON!!!! HOLD ON!!!! We have a case of demonic posession!!! Nothing else could explain why somebody would ever want a career in physics

DigoryKirke:
As for "Divine Revelation," I don't believe that that sort of thing happens anymore. I don't believe that God literally "Speaks" to people (aka, an audible voice), nor do I believe that he shows people visions of the future,...

Hmmm, that sounds suspiciously like Christian Deism to me Digs .

I don't know if God does literally speak to people one way or the other, but I don't see why visions of the future and prophecy would be a thing of the past. I myself have had "visions of the future" that later came true. Nothing on a large scale admittedly, only about things relevant to my personal life. Still, I was astounded at how every detail of one of the "visions" (a dream actually) was replicated in the actual event when it unfolded.

As an Agnostic, I don't know if such things would always necessarily be ascribed to having been sent by God (I think it might have something to do with consciousness being a "non-local" phenomenon), but my personal experiences lead me to think that Prophecy may be a very real phenomenon both in the past and the present (and no doubt the future ).

GB

Whoa nelly, hold on there just a second. I hope that you're not taking my quote out of context. I never meant to say that I don't believe that God speaks to people; He definitely does, but it's not an audible voice in the time in which we live. He's not going to open up the clouds, and yell down at us from across the cosmos now that He can reside in our hearts. God's voice is a "still small voice," that guides every action a Christian makes. It chides us when we are wrong (the Holy Spirit via "conscience,") and woos us back to Him when we fail.

There's another thing about "prophecy" that should indeed be pointed out. Many people experience what I'll loosely call "intuition," but intuition is not prophecy, nor does it come from God (although I suppose it could if He willed it to be so). All of us have certain intuitions that are based on our inborn instincts as human beings. As far as having dreams that came true, to be completely honest, I have no idea where that lies (quodlibitically speaking that is). Either it is the end result of a biological function (which would absolutely lie outside the realm of science,) or it is from a power stronger than us, which, we must admit, must include other beings other than God.

I don't want this post to rely heavily on demon's giving us visions, especially as focussing on demons tends to be somewhat foolish for the Christian (as Christians cannot be posessed by them). C.S. Lewis himself said in regards to demons that one of the errors concerning them was. . . "To believe, and feel an unnatural interest in them." However, I do think that it is valid to point out that Lucifer himself is more than capable of putting things into our heads. Although the work of hell is better accomplished by keeping things out of our heads, visions, dreams, etc... can come from them just as much as they could come from God (if He chose to manifest His power in that manner.) We certainly know that devils will have a great deal of confusion via visions during the Tribulation, after all, we're told in the book of Revelations that those who are left behind will be led by Satan into believing a lie.

At any rate, I'm beginning to digress a bit. . . To anybody who knows me personally they'll realise that this is nothing new.

Well, I might have been having a little fun with that comment Digs . But when you go on to say: "He's not going to open up the clouds, and yell down at us from across the cosmos now that He can reside in our hearts...", I really have to wonder why not? And that notion is indeed vaguely Deist. But there's nothing wrong with that .

I agree intuition isn't the same as prophecy, but prophecy and precognition are clearly related. In my precognitive dream I witnessed an event that took place the very next day right before my very eyes. In my dream I met a friend I hadn't seen in 6 months and hadn't expected to see again in the near future. The circumstances of my "surprise" meeting the next day unfolded precisely as it did in my dream.

It was uncanny, I met him walking on the Railroad tracks near my house as I was walking to work--same exact time and place as my dream. He was wearing the same clothes, carrying the same bags, walking the same direction--towards me. Our conversation was the same, word for word.

I've had other precognitive dreams too, but never with such vivid clarity. Though I have my own ideas about where these abilities come from, I'm open to other ideas too.

GB

I agree intuition isn't the same as prophecy, but prophecy and precognition are clearly related. In my precognitive dream I witnessed an event that took place the very next day right before my very eyes.

But did you know at the time that it was precognitive? If not, then the point is moot.

I don't know if God does literally speak to people one way or the other, but I don't see why visions of the future and prophecy would be a thing of the past.

As Christians, we are told that special revelation as such has ceased until Christ comes again. Visions and prophecies may come, but they must be subordinated to Scripture. We do not derive our doctrine from them, nor should we put faith in them.

TBG

TBG:
As Christians, we are told that special revelation as such has ceased until Christ comes again.

Is that actually expressly stated in the Bible? I don't recall, and even if that is so (and I concede the possibility), it doesn't preclude that the ability to witness future events still occurs, which is the main point I was making.

And that point is valid, regardless of the semantic red-herring you employed ("But did you know at the time that it was precognitive? If not, then the point is moot.")

As it so happens, I did have some inclination that my dream was atypical, due to the uncanny vividness of it. But I didn't realize it was actually precognitive until the event occurred. That, in no way, diminishes the fact that it was indeed a precognitive vision.

I'm not really interested though, in debating pedantic semantics (I was just having a little fun with Digs about the notion that certain "miraculous", or paranormal things only happened in Biblical times). I'm much more interested in hearing from other members of the forum, whether they have had similar experiences, and what they might think the theological, physical (as in Physics) and psychological implications might be.

There is a particularly intriguing show currently on TV called Flash Forward, that explores many of the issues raised by the possibility of seeing future events before they occur, such as the possibility that by witnessing future events we might be able to alter them. The theological implications are also explored by some of the characters. And both of those issues have some relevance to the topic of Free Will "vs" Destiny. These are the sorts of issues that I'd like some feedback on.

GB

Is that actually expressly stated in the Bible? I don't recall, and even if that is so (and I concede the possibility), it doesn't preclude that the ability to witness future events still occurs, which is the main point I was making.

I'm not sure that it is so much expressley stated in the Bible as it is implied. The Joel 2:28 verse which 220 posted way up at the top of the page is typically associated with the time shortly before Christ returns, but beyond that I don't think anyone has any God-breathed divine visions unless it lines up exactly with the Bible. That requirement underscores the entire process. I've read a tiny handful of books and papers about modern day Christians having visions or experiences, and they (the visions) lined up with the Bible as far as I could discern and made me consider them much more seriously. But even now I still would want to do some basic "fact-checks" and dig deeper to see if it points to Scripture, rather than someone just having a really strange dream. I believe that when Christ's return is close there will be a particularly intense period where these things will be much more commonplace in Christendom, but until then one just has to check everything carefully and make sure it is actually coming from God versus it coming from somewhere else, or perhaps just the result of a particularly lucid dream.

Is that actually expressly stated in the Bible? I don't recall, and even if that is so (and I concede the possibility), it doesn't preclude that the ability to witness future events still occurs, which is the main point I was making.

a) Witnessing future events is not what Biblical prophecy is about. John the Baptist, for example, was not given a vision, but a message: "repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand."

b) I have always taken Revelation 22:18-19 to apply to the whole of Scripture, as John probably meant it.

In the Bible, prophecy is not foretelling, but forth-telling. The office of prophet was a unique one where God gave to the individual a message that was to be communicated and recorded. There is a sense, then, in which since the coming of Christ, all Christians are called to prophecy: to speak forth the word of God as recorded in the Scriptures.