I too would be very cautious about the "Ark Find". It is the not the first and it won't be the last. And that is older news than you found out Shadowlander. I got this a few days ago from Dr. Charles Jackson in regards to this. So you know, he is a literal six-day creation believer, serving with Creation Truth.

POINTS OF ORIGINS with Dr. Jackson Creation Truth Foundation http://www.CreationTruth.com
article at: http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/04/ ... ey-ararat/
video at: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/ne ... z0mIvTDKNW
Okay guys chill before gettin' into a tizzy over the latest Ark craze. The wood was C-14 dated 4800 yrs old. Evo's are already making fun of us for "suddenly" trusting C-14 and they should! Evo-assumptions ignore C-14 equilibrium problems, correcting for which should give a date more like 7500-8000 yrs, even though Noah cut the wood 4358-4458 yrs ago. Plus, don't think unbelievers will come to Jesus just because we find the Ark. Jesus said, "If they believe not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe if one rises from the dead." He was right! The world's fascination with the Ark reminds me of Herod's request for Jesus to delight him by performing a miracle, like it was some kind of a magic trick. Let's wait and watch this one. You keep thinking. Dr J

This is one of a multitude of encouragement e-mails I get from him on a regular basis after he spoke on my college campus. These are geared toward Christian believers but this guy really knows his stuff.

We were just discussion about signs and how the signs should be little more than a confirmation of what we believe, not proof of what we believe. Dr Jackson states what's going on here perfectly by going right to Scripture. If non-Christians don't believe our words, a sign or wonder won't change thier minds. I'm not going to jump to conclusions too soon as well. If the Ark is really there, great. But as it's already been indicated, dead wood should have long decomposed by now. I've come to a general consensus that if the Ark was to be found, it would have already been found by now. People have been looking for centuries for it and nothing confirmed yet. I don't think we will at this point, of course assuming we are even looking at the right mountains. I wait and see what happens, but I don't even need to cross my fingers on this one.

I also received an email discussing this latest 'find' of the Ark, with advisories very similar to those Dr. Jackson makes in Fencer's post.

I have a question, or a wondering really, but wouldn't it be possible that Noah and family did something practical and took apart the ark to use for ready building materials in their new homeland? Although I suppose that's gonna make for a lot of houses...

I've wondered the same thing. If you've a family to house and feed, and have just landed on a recently-flooded world, why not use the materials at hand? The rainbow covenant means you won't need such a big boat again; why not use all that easily accessible wood for houses, furniture, even to cook your food?

Now if you were to be discussing the Lost Ark of the Covenant, you might have a better chance of finding it.

I agree this is true in terms of it being made of longer-lasting materials, but can't help wondering if its captors wouldn't have melted it down to reuse the precious metals it was made of. They might have also wanted to so as a sign of some sort of 'victory' over the deity it represented - especially if they'd heard stories of what happened when the Phillistines captured the Ark (I Samuel 5).

Or, the Ark is already secreted away somewhere in a US Government warehouse.

I don't have any thoughts to share on Noah's ark. Whether or not they find it, God knows where it is. Besides, I don't need proof to believe God's Word. God is trustworthy and true. He's not a man that He should lie. So why not take His Word at face value and believe it as written?

@Fencer: I like your and Dr. Jackson's thoughts. Regarding Jesus' words to the Pharisees ... "If they believe not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe if one rises from the dead" ... we know Jesus was thinking of the Pharisees when He said "neither will they believe." But regarding one rising from the dead, who is Jesus talking about? Himself, or Lazarus?

1. When Jesus brought back Lazarus, all kinds of people believed in Him! Even Gentile "Jews" looked for Jesus on Palm Sunday [10th of Nisan]. Check out John 11:45, 12:11, 16-22.
2. Jesus appeared to 500 at one point after His resurrection [1 Corinthians 15]. I'm sure they all believed in Him and that's a much bigger crowd than 11 fearful disciples in a locked upper room!

And yet, the Pharisees and the soldiers didn't believe when Lazarus came back and Jesus arose. The travesty of Matthew 28:11-15 astounds me sometimes. Why? They had no real faith to start with. A sign or a miracle didn't give them faith. Jesus gave the unbelieving and heart-hardened Pharisees one sign: the sign of Jonah, i.e. His death and resurrection. Regarding faith, I think the sign of Jonah, fulfilled in Christ, is the sign to end all signs. But that's just me.

Mark 16:20 [and Acts]: "And they went forth and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirmed the word with signs following." God confirmed His Word through signs. He didn't give His Word through them. If we believe the Word, we don't need signs. The signs God chooses to give us confirm the faith we already had, for others to see. We believe, then we see. We don't need to see to believe. Jesus told the nobleman, whose son was sick, "Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe" [John 4]. Why did He say this? To test the man? The result was that the nobleman kept asking Jesus, in faith, to come and heal his son. Jesus saw the man's faith [he didn't need a sign] and gave him a word of faith. The nobleman then believed Jesus' word. That was enough. His son was healed.

@StudyMate: you said Gideon made an unwise vow. [Good example about the fleece! ] Were you thinking of Jephthah, Judges 11?

Re: Anthropic principle ... it was enough to convert the late Antony Flew, once an atheist, to theism.

Flew was forced by reason to ask the question, “Did the universe know we were coming?” He studied the works of the founders of the anthropic principle, which has been called the fine-tuning argument. It holds that the most basic laws of physics are so precise that if the value of even one of the fundamental constants – the speed of light or the total mass of a single electron, for instance – had been to the slightest degree different, then no planet capable of permitting and sustaining the evolution of human life could have formed.

Flew pointed out that the fine-tuning is so precise that no major scientist today claims that it was merely a coincidence of chance at work in a single universe. The odds against that are simply too great. Too many factors had to coincide perfectly for the possibility of life. The explanations generally fall into two camps: 1) fine-tuning of the universe is of Divine design. 2) speculation that our universe is one of a multitude of other universes, but ours happened to have the right conditions for life.

In short, scholars generally believe God created our universe or our universe is one of multiple universes and ours is precisely right for life. Flew, of course, did not accept the latter multiverse theory. Ever the philosopher, he pointed out that the existence of a multiverse still does not eliminate the question of a Divine Source.

Re: whether signs in the heavens point to God ... what are your thoughts on these articles? I don't know much science, but ya'll do so help me.
1 Constellations: legacy of the dispersion from Babel
2 The gospel in time and space

Re: piety/holiness ... I said earlier, "God loves piety because it is piety, just like He loves truth because it is truth." Well, what about these verses?

Psalm 19:8: The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. [3477]
Psalm 33:4: For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth. [3477]
Psalm 119:75: I know, O LORD, that thy judgments are right, and that thou in faithfulness hast afflicted me. [6664]
Isaiah 45:19: I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right. [4339]
Hosea 14:9: Who is wise, and he shall understand these things? prudent, and he shall know them? for the ways of the LORD are right, and the just shall walk in them: but the transgressors shall fall therein. [3477]

And how do we define right? [among others]
1. yashar, H. 3477
1) straight, upright, correct, right
a) straight, level
b) right, pleasing, correct
c) straightforward, just, upright, fitting, proper
d) uprightness, righteous, upright
e) that which is upright (subst)
KJV words: right, upright, righteous, straight, convenient, Jasher, equity, just, meet, meetest, upright ones, uprightly, uprightness, well

2. mashar, H. 4339
1) evenness, uprightness, straightness, equity
a) evenness, level, smoothness
b) uprightness, equity
c) rightly (as adv)
KJV words: equity, uprightly, uprightness, right things, agreement, aright, equal, right, righteously, sweetly, upright

3. tsedeq, H. 6664
1) justice, rightness, righteousness
a) what is right or just or normal, rightness, justness (of weights and measures)
b) righteousness (in government)
1) of judges, rulers, kings
2) of law
3) of Davidic king, Messiah
4) of Jerusalem as seat of just government
5) of God's attribute
c) righteousness, justice (in case or cause)
d) rightness (in speech)
e) righteousness (as ethically right)
f) righteousness (as vindicated), justification (in controversy), deliverance, victory, prosperity
1) of God as covenant-keeping in redemption
2) in name of Messianic king
3) of people enjoying salvation
4) of Cyrus
KJV words: righteousness, just, justice, righteous, righteously, right, righteous cause, unrighteousness

God loves what is right, holy, and true. But they're grounded in reality. Why? These things are intrinsic to God's character, His very nature! God doesn't say lying is bad because He flipped a coin and decided the truth was better than lies. No, lying is bad because God is truth. Therefore He loves what is true.

stargazer: Or, the Ark is already secreted away somewhere in a US Government warehouse.

…and will feature in the next National Treasure Movie.

chrisTian: you said Gideon made an unwise vow...Were you thinking of Jephthah, Judges 11?

Oh my, yes I was. I'm impressed you got that reference. Thanks for picking me up on it!

This has got to be one of my favourite passages about 'signs':

Mark 16:16-18 (New International Version)
16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

Especially the last line.

Re: whether signs in the heavens point to God ... what are your thoughts on these articles? I don't know much science, but ya'll do so help me.
1 Constellations: legacy of the dispersion from Babel
2 The gospel in time and space

Since you asked so nicely…

The first article comes in two parts. The first talks about the constellations as a legacy of a pre-Tower of Babel civilization. I’m not opposed to this idea in principle, and the article draws some interesting connections between ancient constellations and Noah’s flood, yet I think the writers are too quick to dismiss things that seem to go against this.

Examples are the Chinese zodiac (which presents a “circle of animals” quite different than its Western counterpart, including a Dog, Rooster, Rat, Pig, and so on) as well as other Chinese star myths (notably those surrounding the bright summer constellations we know as Cygnus, Lyra, and Aquila, now rising into prominence in the evening skies – as well as the bright section of the Milky Way that passes through this part of the sky).

Native North American legend offers other examples (though I seem to have misplaced my Native American Star Myths), such as some different constellations (the Raven/Trickster appearing in some cases).

The second part discusses the same “gospel in the stars” concept from the late 1800s that I mentioned in my earlier, admittedly very lengthy, post here, naming the same books: Mazzaroth: Or the Constellations by Frances Rolleston (1862), Gospel in the Stars by Joseph Seiss (1882), and Witness of the Stars by E.W. Bullinger (1893).

It includes a list of the brightest stars and their names taken from those old works. It looks very technical but, quite honestly, the “star name” column makes me (and likely any other modern astronomer) cringe. (My primary source for star name etymology is Star Names: Their Lore and Meaning by Richard H. Allen, which was also originally written in the late 1800s and is considered a standard on the subject).

The example I cited earlier (Deneb is tail not judge) is just the tip of the iceberg here. Other examples include Sirius – the brightest star in the night sky – called Prince in the table but usually translated from ancient Greek as glowing or scorching, and Procyon – called the Redeemer here; the name is usually translated before the dog – pointing to its rising shortly before Sirius, the famous Dog Star. (I hasten to add that these incorrect names are not endorsed by the writers of the article, who have only reproduced the chart).

The writers of the article do refer to these questionable meanings but their primary objection to the “gospel in the stars” is theological – it makes the sky a special revelation.

The second article is not directly astronomical (though it appeals to the concept of multiple dimensions as drawn from superstring theory, and event horizons as originally derived from black holes). It extends the famous Flatland analogy of 2 and 3 dimensions to the spiritual realm: God, heaven, and hell are real, but are in dimensions we can’t imagine – or study by empirical means – because we’re limited to 3D. It postulates that, due to sin, they’re separated from us by event horizons, but thanks to the work of Christ access is again possible.

This idea of “spiritual event horizons” is one I’d never thought of before, though I’d previously considered the notion that God may exist in more than just our dimension (and that heaven and hell exist in one different than ours). This article points out that God cannot be detected (proven) via physical means due to our 3D limitations. I think physical scientists can accept this conclusion. However, I think those same scientists would point out the problem that’s been mentioned in here before: science is (or at least should be) about observations, hypotheses, and verification of the physical world. God – even if He’s extra-dimensional – falls outside this realm. This does not necessarily mean He doesn’t exist, just that science – at best – can only point to His existence, via that general revelation we’ve already discussed.

Don't know if this has been covered on this thread, but what do you think of different evangelistic methods? They range from the method of the West Borough Baptist Church (Picketing military funerals) to the method of Way of the Master and Living Waters University (Presenting the 10 Commandments as a guide to Jesus). Many seem to come from the Bible, but in fact some are very counter active in bringing Glory to God...

And on that subject, how do you witness to someone who thinks they are going to hell and doesn't really care?

Witnessing and evangelism is always a tricky issue. First off, we must understand one thing above all. Jesus commanded us to make disciples, not converts. A disciple is someone who seeks after a master, learning the master's lifestyle, his way of thinking, and walks in the master's footsteps. This cannot be done with the 'hit and run' evangelism styles and really can only be done with a relational approach. But on the other hand, we are also commanded to preach the Word and the Good News. How can one make a disciple if that person has not heard, and how can that person hear, if the Word is not preached.

When we study Acts, we see Paul does both approaches. He speaks in public, declaring the Good News, but he also spends that 1-on-1 time with others as well. I believe we do need a balance of both approaches. We need to spend that personal time with those who are seeking, whom God is drawing. At the same time, we need to be out there throwing seeds and watering them. We don't know what type of soil is in the crowd so we can't be choosers in who 'deserves to hear or not'. Our duty is to preach and make disciples, not determine who wants to hear it or not.

Now as to how we evangelize, there are many different styles, and each of these will work with certain groups, but some will turn away others at the same time. The "Turn or Burn" street proclaimers might somehow draw a few people in who are aware of thier own sin and see a need to repent. But to anyone who doesn't think they have a sin problem (which is more common than we realize), this is a turn-off. At the same time, how can anyone grasp the need for a Savior if they don't understand what they need to be saved from?

The Way of the Master does a good approach to street evangelism. It starts simple to see if anyone is willing to talk deeper and uses the still valid Law for people to see where they really stand. Another good approach is to use our own law system to explain the reality. We like to think we are good people, who occasionally make mistakes and think we can get by with the good stuff we do. But if you speed down the road at 20mph above the speed limit, you are a speeder and deserved to be punished accordingly.

I would like to bring in another evangelical tool that I have personally used: through performance and art. I am a fencer and as by my username, I use the sport whenever I can as an evangelism tool. So far it has been an excellent ice-breaker going into a VBS Bible Club but God is starting to show me windows of opportunity to take it beyond that. A presentation God is showing me how to put together will involved using fencing equipment, moves, and rules to show life lessons, often with a spiritual warfare theme that can be used for Chrisitan (like at a church or youth group) and non-Christian (like in a school setting or out in the neighborhoods in a Bible Club setting) audiences. This July, when I go to the US Fencing Summer Nationals, in Atlanta, GA, during a break in my competition, I plan to meet with the director of the Operation Mobilization Arts and Performance Division who wants to see how/if fencing could be used as a sport ministry.

Fencing is not the only thing I have seen used for evangelism. In Urbana 09, I met Steve Lillis of Gospel Tricks Shots, a professional pool player who uses his cue stick to give a visual representation of life lessons and a Gospel Message. My Intervarsity Chapter brought him to UTEP in April and we drew 150 people for two shows, 47 of whom turned in comment cards expressing an interest in knowing more about Christianity. We are already working on a plan to bring him back next year. If fencing and pool can be used, what else? I've seen magicians/illusionists use thier tricks to evangelize. A unicyclist is doing his thing through OM in Turkey. There are others as well that are using thier particular gifts and talents to not just do good deeds, but using them as evangelical tools.

Now, how to you witness to someone who thinks they are going to hell and doesn't care? I dealt with this issue head on three summers ago. You must understand this above all when it comes to evangelism: you cannot change the person, nor make them understand thier plight. Many NWebbers who were here at that time heard my story as I attempted to witness to a co-worker during the last few months of my job. He knew and understood Christianity better than most people, but he was not a Christian, believed he was going to hell, and didn't care. He knew the truth, and he knew that he knew it, but I could not get him to accept it for himself. It really came to a tough point when a demonic force that had been in his life, came up and manafested itself through my co-worker. It was the most intense moment of my life as the very foundations of my faith were violently shaken. But I came out of it stronger than ever, and I didn't leave my co-worker the way he was until I had given him the Gospel Message. His life is in God's hands and I can do no more except pray.

The challenge to reaching someone who doesn't care like this is finding common ground in which you can use to get to the deeper issues. With my co-worker, I found it was through writing about spiritual matters that got his intrigue. In fact, this is what truly drove me to write my spiritual warfare novel that is on the verge of publication. I used the first draft of my novel to witness to him and still in the long run, he wouldn't accept the truth. The biggest challenge is to be forced to accept the fact that these people might not accept the truth no matter how many times you preach it and only God can reach them. I still believe my co-worker can be a powerful tool for the Kingdom of God, should he come to Christ, so I pray that God will continue to work on him. Be patient and know that everything is in God's hands.

I don't envy you that experience, FFJ. That kind of thing scares the daylights out of me and I don't know that I could do more than pray my mind out for the thing to go away. I've heard anecdotes about how it (or they) will know things about you and will tell you all about sins you've committed that you've long since forgotten about, or have you twisting yourself in circular logic in an attempt to trip you up and make you question your faith. I honestly don't know much about the subject, but I always had the idea that Christ's name is poisonous to those entities and that it will make them retreat. My mom is Catholic (I'm the only Protestant in the fold) and she remarked to me several years ago that only Catholics can perform exorcisms, although I would think that technically any Christian, provided they have enough faith in their arsenal, could do one if the situation arose. The Gospels describe that the disciples went about and drove out demons quite frequently, making me wonder why Israel had such an infestation of them at the time.

My current understanding of such things is that such entities very rarely make overt appearances (I have seen one once and it scared me half to death. My sister and niece were each attacked and the physical descriptions we each provided all matched) and tend to work "behind the scenes". I know that a non-Christian can harbor one if he/she allows it there, and I've been told that an inhabited person who "welcomes" a visitor of that type might be...not sure what word to use, "augmented" perhaps? I know that Christians cannot be possessed, although they can be oppressed by such beings. And I've heard that such things are not seen as often in civilized countries but are much more prevalent in 3rd world countries where people may not understand what they are.

I generally believe that demons use a variety of different ways to manifest, and possession is just one of several. Sometimes at work we end up watching Ghost Adventures on the Travel Channel. I don't believe in ghosts...when you kick the bucket you're on a one way ticket to one of two destinations, and there is no diverging from one path or the other, and once you're there you're there. I find the show frightening because I know that what these people are looking for aren't ghosts but something else entirely, something they don't understand and are misidentifying. Every episode I've ever seen I silently recite at the TV screen, "You guys need to leave and quickly...you need to get out of there. You've no idea what you're messing around with", but they never do seem to listen. I tend to think UFO phenomena falls under the same category...you cannot convince me that it is otherwise, especially with documented cases of people being assaulted by "visitors" that can be deterred and driven away by the victim uttering Christ's name. Satan is described as the "prince of the air", and I have no doubt that such things are beyond his power. Great book to read on the subject is Alien Instrusion by a gent named Gary Bates. I've mentioned it before but since it's sorta related to the topic, figured I'd mention it again.

I wasn't planning on bringing up the topic of demonology, but rather using a personal testimony to answer a question. But since it was brought up, here I go. Shadowlander, I do not wish my experience on anyone else either. I still don't know other than the grace of God how I survived it, especially considering that I was alone physically, but also the only Christian in the vicinity. You are indeed correct that demons prefer to work "behind the scenes". They want one of two approaches about them to be percieved. One is an overwhelming obsession about them. The other is to not believe they exist. CS Lewis warned strictly about these two POV's.

My experience was a rare one, because demons prefer not to be known to Christians because they know what kind of power and authority Christians have. I strongly disagree with the notion that only Catholics can perform exorcisms, but I also understand their perspective in that Catholic priests are usually among the few that understand what goes on with demonic encounters. As Christians, we bear the name of Christ and as His ambassadors, we carry the authority and power that he has. But many Christians don't undersand this. Having more faith does help, but the important thing is where that faith is placed. Faith, unlike belief, requires an object and if we have the faith in the right place, namely Jesus Christ, we can do all sorts of things that would be naturally impossible. This is what Jesus was talking about in regards to the faith the size of the mustard seed. Do you have the faith in Jesus power and authority over all things, or do you have faith that your circumstances are above what you can do about it? I will say mine did fluctuate between the two in my experience.

Something else that made my experience rare is that I didn't stumble upon the demonic entity in my co-worker per say. It was more it confronted me directly, like it was challenging me. I can't recall a story like that, except for maybe Job, where Satan initiates the challenge upon a Godly person. I did try everything I knew about how to drive back demons, but nothing appeared to work. It seemed to me after the fact, that God had given this demon the power to resist my efforts to test my faith. It wasn't my lack of faith that prevented me from driving it out, or where my faith was placed. It was something that I cannot describe without telling the full story in detail.

RE: Ghosts, aliens, and demons. One must tread carefully on this topic, but Shadowlander has said it quite well. I can't really say I know enough about ghosts to say one way or the other. But I do know enough about demons to know for certain that it doesn't take much for them to manafest themselves as ghosts. What's more is that demons know thier history VERY well and will use that to bolster thier efforts. And demons may back off from attempts to drive them away that are not by the name of Jesus. But it is a ruse to get us to believe in something else. My co-worker was going to attempt a ritual to 'send the demon back' from where it was summoned when he allowed three witches to do that in his house. I believed had he succeeded in the ritual, he would have driven the demon out, but in its place would be an even stronger and more evil demon. Only Jesus has the authority to truly drive demons away. Any other attempts will eventually only make the situation worse.

And as for aliens, I'd have to dig way back in my e-mail archive, but I got an e-mail from Dr. Charles Jackson (I get a lot of them on a regular basis) a while back about this. Interestingly enough, out of all the 'stories' about alien-abduction, any time the abductions suddenly stopped were when the abducted called upon the name of Jesus. If they were real aliens, would they know about Jesus (even though he would have created them)? But like I said about ghosts, it doesn't take much for a demon to manafest itself in an appearance of an alien.

Shadowlander also brings up an interesting point about how the Disciples frequently drove out demons and how there could be such a infestation of demonic influences in Israel. I think part of it is that we don't really understand how deeply involved demons are in society and how much they are 'behind the scenes'. They are definately more involved than we think. But are they behind everything? Absolutely not. All they need to do is set off a chain reaction and sit back and watch our own sinful habits do thier thing. But back in Israel, there hadn't been a prophet or a Word from God in 400 years. The pharasees were doing thier thing, completely unaware of the demonic influences behind thier line of thinking. It is interesting to note that driving out demons was one of the two things Jesus told his followers to do when he sent the 12 out and the 72 out.

A final comment for now. In spite of what the demons are doing, how they can manafest themselves, and the power they have, we MUST remember that they are a defeated foe. Jesus destroyed the root of their power when he rose from the dead. They still have power, but they do not have any authority or power except that which God has granted until thier final doom. The war has already been decided, and we are in the final battles before it ends for good. And I will be one that will fight for the King of Kings, under his banner, and I look foward to the day when the King will come and finish the war personally.

@stargazer: thanks for putting in some time to give all that info.

I have some personal experience with demons, but nothing like what Fencer or Shadowlander described.

I believe we do need a balance of both approaches. We need to spend that personal time with those who are seeking, whom God is drawing. At the same time, we need to be out there throwing seeds and watering them. We don't know what type of soil is in the crowd so we can't be choosers in who 'deserves to hear or not'. Our duty is to preach and make disciples, not determine who wants to hear it or not.

Excellent points. I've been spending personal time with quite a few people in the last year. Yet none have believed and received the word. My souls in the Lord for 6 years now? None. And it's become really discouraging. Still, in evangelism, I've learned to sow the seed everywhere. God gave me Ecclesiastes 11:5-6 this past Sunday.

As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all. In the morning sow thy seed, and in the evening withhold not thine hand: for thou knowest not whether shall prosper, either this or that, or whether they both shall be alike good.

Compare that with the verses below, which I mulled on earlier this year.

Blessed are ye that sow beside all waters, that send forth thither the feet of the ox and the ass.

I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

Hell isn’t cards, drinking, and smoking. It’s not this life at all. It’s a lake of fire and "outer darkness" and "weeping and gnashing of teeth" -- for eternity (Matthew 8:12, 22:13, 24:51, 25:30). @Fencer and Eric: what do your unsaved friends [or enemies] think hell is like? Tell them the reality: Revelation 20:11-15.

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

All that matters is the Lamb's book of life (Rev 21:17). If we're not in it, God have mercy on us!

220, I don't think keeping score is a very healthy practice for witnessing. You may only ever be the one who builds foundations for a conversion and never see the results. Keeping track and fretting over how many people you've converted is just going to lead to worry and frustration, which could in turn affect how you treat the people you're witnessing to. Just share the Gospel with them, pray for them, and try to be their friend. It's all you can do.

How to evangelize? I say do it through relationships---by being Christ to people, showing them God's love. How can we say we care about a person's soul when they are starving physically too? You want to evangelize? Go do something! Build a relationship with that coworker, talk to the worker who checks you out at the grocery store, invite a neighbor to church or at least over for a meal.

Hell isn’t cards, drinking, and smoking.

Nope---all good things, in moderation.

220, when I spoke with my co-worker during my encounter with the demonic, he knew what hell would be like, and he still didn't care. In the encounter, I learned that this demon had been with him for about six years prior. That is six years of listening to the lies, not just about the Christian perspective, but also the idea of creation, heaven and hell. The one thing that frustrated me the most about it is that he said he knew I was right about what I was saying. And he still rejected the truth.

He is a perfect example that you cannot win people over with simple logic and persuasion. Paul indicated this as well when he said he did not come with eloquence of speach. We just need to come with the Gospel. Only God can change the heart, but it is still our responsibility to preach.

Something I am seeing about the preaching to the masses is that it is about seed planting. I mentioned before about how Steve Lillis uses his talents on a pool table for evagelism. When I reported back to him about how our Intervarsity Chapter didn't gain a single person out of the 47+ that wanted to know more about God, he told us that his show usually does one or two things: revive the host group (in this case my chapter, which it did) and/or plant seeds. It is not meant to win souls to Christ. But shows like this are very valuable to impacting the Kingdom of Heaven. Shows like this can put people in contact. It already did with me as through the event Steve put on at my campus has sparked a chain of events that has given me a new direction in life. I am planning to use fencing for a large group presentation and also as an individual tool. This summer in Atlanta, I will be speaking with Operation Mobilization about this and see what God has.

TBG has put it very well, giving excellent practical ways to evangelize. It is in your every day interactions with people. You don't even have to preach the Word. You just need to live your life as though your every breath is determined by it. I've had a number of people tell me they knew I was a Christian without me saying a word about it, because I live with the joy of the Lord and show my passion for Christ in how I live. I do need to be more vocal about what I believe and why, but at the same time I have gifts in other areas. Not everyone is meant to be an evangelist per say, but everyone does have a role in developing the Body as well as having a role in leading people to Christ. Mine might be a seed planter, but not necessarily a harvester. I'm waiting and listening to see what my role will be and God is making that more and more clear as this semester is coming to a close. I'm looking forward to this summer and seeing where God is taking me.

]I can't really say I know enough about ghosts to say one way or the other. But I do know enough about demons to know for certain that it doesn't take much for them to manafest themselves as ghosts. What's more is that demons know thier history VERY well and will use that to bolster thier efforts.

I think a goodly portion of what demons actively do is to draw attention away from God, and they'll use quasi-spiritual lures to do it with. When people really follow UFO related things they tend to really obsess over it. And it is interesting stuff, to be sure (it's total bunk, but still interesting). There's a certain New-Agey spirituality that comes with it and people tend to really cling to the idea...if we truly weren't hardwired for religion there'd be a whole lot more atheists around, right? UFO/Alien "worship" can easily become a surrogate (or even replacement) religion all its own. Just look at the Heaven's Gate folks.

The same holds true for supernatural related things. One of my best friends in the Air Force visited me earlier this week...I hadn't seen him in almost 3 years. He brought his 15 year old son with him and after our meeting and hugs the first question he asked me was about how old my house was. I told him it was built in 1932, and the next question on both his and his son's lips was "is it haunted"? I'm noticing an increase in TV shows about the subject...people are really into it now more than at any time I can remember. When my wife and I want to go on weekend getaways or vacations one of the things we end up having to slog through are numerous "Ghost Walk" pamphlets, directions to the nearest haunted local pub (I'm sure that many of those are probably looking for a wee little more profit at the bar ), and visits to purportedly haunted cemetaries. Just yesterday we were in Wilmington visiting the battleship North Carolina and my friend's son, rather than being impressed with the sheer size and power of this mighty vessel that endured so much and handed out beatings to all takers, says "there's supposed to be a ghost on the lower decks" . They're telling me about ghosts in their houses, ghosts they've seen here or there, asking if my house has ghosts...and my friend is a Christian! I mean it's quite plain to see that this is wiggling its way in to his relationship with God.

I think perhaps this is one of the key reasons for such "paranormal activity" in the first place...drawing people away, making them question how an afterlife works (after all, if spirits purportedly wander around your kitchen for eternity, there may not be a Heaven or Hell to go to, right?) and then perhaps start paying more attention to things such as ghosts and less to God. It's so easy to get blindsided with stuff and get off track. It's just...genius when you think about it. It's got the spiritual appeal, it's got genuinely interesting "lore", it's accessible to anyone...all elements with which you can easily lure folks away from the Truth with and get them obsessed about it, up to and including Christians. Satan's no dummy, far from it.

You've nailed it hard on the head, Shadowlander. I too have been watching the shows like "A Haunting", "Paranormal Activity", sometimes "Ghost Hunters" and a few others. I don't watch them as an obsession, but more to see what's going on out there. Having experienced demonic activity head on, I know what a lot of these families are going through, even though I never saw 'aparations' or 'ghost-like figures'. The demon I dealt with knew better than to show itself outright to me. What I also find interesting is that in all these shows when the 'haunting' ends, it only truly ends when a Christian confronts the entity.

But as was said, a lot of the enemy's tactics are simply to draw us away from God. I know Jesus said that a house divided against itself can't stand, but at the same time, I've seen things where it appears that Satan does drive out Satan, but all as a ruse. Sometimes a demonic entity will back off when 'other means' are used but it's not by force. That entity backs off willingly to allow another to takes its place, often one bigger and meaner. This was about to be the case with my co-worker and God gave me the discernment to warn him against it.

These tactics are used to get us to trust in something other than God. Satan doesn't care if we believe in him, in aliens, in ghosts, athiesm, or any other religion. His purpose is to steal, kill, and destroy, all goals easily accomplished when his victim is not focused on God.

It is quite rare for demons to come out in the open. The more open they are, the more easily it is to identify what is going on and how to deal with it. Often when demons manafest themselves, it is for the purpose of driving fear into their victim; fear to give in to their demands. But these are rare cases. Where demons usually are involved are subtle things to draw us away from God. They will try to get us focuses on our circumstances, and not on God. And nobody is safe from being a target.

The adult, mature Christians are not the only ones demons attack. Satan attacks the mature ones because they are a threat to him. But Satan is also described as a roaring lion, seeking any whom he can devour. Lions hunt the young and weak after they are separated from the main heards. The real victims of demonic activity are the non-Christians and youth, because they don't have the established defenses that mature Christians do. This is why I tend to view evangelism as a spiritual battle for the lost. We aren't just trying to bring someone to Christ as we might introduce someone to a friend. We are going into battle against the forces of darkness to rescue a captive doomed to destruction. In my experience, nobody comes to Christ unless someone makes a stand and fights, spiritually, for that person. I fought for my co-worker. I couldn't drive out the demon that controlled him, but that demon couldn't beat me either. It was because God protected me, gave me the tools and words I needed. Or perhaps the better way to put it is that God fought through me, to test my faith, and to see how far I would go to see my co-worker saved. I did not give up on the battle, but God called me to a different front of the battle field where I am now.

It is things like this that are the reason I wrote my spiritual warfare novel. It is to open people's eyes that there is much more going on that what we realize. Am I an expert on this? I'd say no, but I am experienced. And back in the medieval days, when a lord or king saw a soldier survive a battle, that soldier was often made to train the next group of knights and soldiers, regardless of actual skill. So I am doing what I can do, to help people be aware of the forces of darkness and how to truly combat against them. And no tool or tactic truly works except the work of the Lord Jesus Christ, who defeated Satan at the Cross and when he rose from the dead. And as long as I stay true to my faith in Him, I know the enemy cannot defeat me. Satan is no dummy, when it comes to tactics to draw us away from him. But at the same time, he is a dummy for continuously attacking people in a way that only makes them stronger. It will be Satan's brillance in attempt to destroy Christianity that will make him set everything up according to Revalation to bring about his own downfall. If he was really smart in the long run, he'd be doing everything he could to prevent the End of Ages to come and he'd leave us Christians alone. But it's nice to have an enemy out there to keep us alert and help us build our faith and strengthen us. I came of out my experience stronger than ever before and I am watching out for it to happen again. And should that happen, I will relesh the moment because I know I will come out stronger with a deeper faith in my Lord Jesus Christ.