So sorry to hear about your friend, Elsendor. Our thoughts and prayers are with you.

There's not much I can comment on these hate groups and their twisted logic that God would like it if they hurt or kill human beings created in His image. I'm guessing that they don't run around beating people who cheat on their wives or cheat on their taxes, but it would make the brain hurt too much to ask their reasons. This is the type of sin that also happens to be a crime, so here's to the legal authorities who'll be tracking down the people who did it.

Some people like to rank sins so that they can look down on other people, which itself is a sin. (I get very hot when I hear of the stronger beating the weaker: the outcast, the wife, the children, the pets. These things are indeed evil, but my Angry Anger at those who do it does not make me better!) Jesus tells some scribes and Pharisees (sort of "professional Good Examples") that "the prostitutes and tax collectors will get into Heaven before you do". People prefer to hear "former prostitutes and former tax collectors," but that's not what He said. We are all sinners saved by grace through faith. Everyone's got something.

Pattertwig's Pal wrote:

I can't imagine how we could have cars without car crashes.

From the TV series Everybody Loves Raymond:

Raymond: "In my perfect world, by the time my kids have to learn how to drive, all cars will be made out of Nerf. Crashes become fun."

Debra: "So what about when it rains, genius?"

Raymond (undeterred): "You just wring it out at the next red light."

On Alcorn's Heaven, I haven't heard any comments on the book I found: Anthony DeStefano, A travel guide to Heaven, c2003. Has anyone else read this one? I can pick this one up fairly soon but am hoping for a review first.

Something else that came to mind is when Jesus met Mary Magdalene. She was caught in the act of adultery and was dragged to Jesus to see if he would uphold the law and stone her. Jesus then drew in the dirt and said, "He who is without sin should be the one to cast the first stone." The accusors left, and Jesus told her to go in peace and sin no more.

Now several things are really interesting to note here. First off, adultery requires two people. Where was the guy in this situation? He was guilty of the same sin and punishable to the same degree. The other thing is what Jesus' response was. He didn't just say 'he who is without sin' in general terms. He actually was saying 'he who is without this sin', be the first to cast the first stone. This is why Jesus told us not to judge others, because the long and short of it is we are all sinners and have broken every one of the 10 Commandments in some way shape or form.

Now there is a difference between calling something the way it is and judging someone. I can say Timothy McVeigh's actions in 1995 to be evil when he bombed the Murray Building in Oklahoma City. That is an undeniable fact that he killed 167 people, including children in that attack. But if I were to call him evil, either to his face (while he was alive) or as gossip, especially with a tone that he is more evil than I, is judgemental. The real questions is, would you, if put in his shoes do any different?

The attack being mentioned on the previous page is simply a hate-crime, not against the actions, but against the person. The actions are evil, but apart from Jesus Christ, we can't expect someone like that to act any different. The heart is inherently evil and seeks to plot new ways to commit sin. Only Jesus, who has to transform us and give us a new nature, is able to help us think anything other than sin. And the long and short of it is this: no sin is greater or lesser than any other. I often tend to think myself a good person, because I never do the things that we imagine sinners to be. But the truth is that I still sin, and by God's standard, I am no better off than any other person you could consider to be evil.

But what's more, is that God not only seeks to save us, he wants to save the 'more evil people'. Paul was mass murderer who sparked the initial persecution of the early church. Yet, God redeemed him and he became one of the most prominant early church figures. John Newton was a slave ship captain. He not only promoted the illegal slave trade; he helped run it. Yet God used his story and led him to write "Amazing Grace". There are so many more examples of these types of stories. And yet how did those tranformations take place? It was certainly not through the beating with the Bible. That is how the Muslims draw converts: convert or die.

We are at war, but as Christian we do not rage war as the world does. The world seeks domination through fear and force. We fight a different battle that goes far deeper than any of us really imagine. We fight against evil, the power of darkness, the principalities of the world. Our war is against three foes: our sin, the sinful world-view, and the devil along with his minions. Our battle is not against other people. It is very tough because these three foes will often show themselves through other people, and we have to discern what is really going on. Keep strong and fight the good fight. Those that do evil will reap what they sow, but so will those that do good. And we will reap what we sow, more than we sow, and later than when we sow it. And I pray that God is merciful to me for the time that I have been judgemental as well, because if given the opportunity, without listening to the Holy Spirit, I might do the same kind of thing. And I prase God that he has kept me out of said situations so far. Hang in there and stay true to the Word, because God will fulfill what he said he would do. And I also hope I have been an encouragement with my last two posts.

You have been a great help, FencerforJesus.

One of my biggest stumbling blocks for my trust in God has been sort of embodied in the Tree in the Garden of Eden. My most pressing question has always been If God really doesn't want to send anyone to hell, then why did he put the Tree there in the first place?--in other words, why did he allow opportunities for man to sin. I know that He did it because He would not force us to love Him... but why did that matter so much? I can't fathom why it is so much more important that we choose Him than that those headed for Hell are saved. It still doesn't sit right with me.

I know part of my issue is probably pride--my mom says I think too much that I know better than God. It's not that I'm going to stop being a Christian because I don't like what God is doing--it's more like... Okay, God. I'll do what you say--but why?

I've enjoyed reading the discussion of the past couple of pages. I won't disrupt too much, I only wanted to echo Elsendor's question, which I've discussed at length with my parents at different points during my life -but would like to hear what others have to say on it also.

I don't think it's a prideful thing to wonder why God placed the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the garden -I think it's a perfectly valid question and what's more is I know God's big enough and faithful enough to answer you on it if you really seek Him about it.

I have to go one step further and ask: why did God allow Satan to roam the Earth? It seems that man, a weaker being, was helped along by Satan's deceptive conduct. That is, Adam seemed fine all that time he was in the garden before Satan came along and got to him. So knowing our weaker natures, why was Satan allowed this proximity?

Is it a case of God being bound by his own natural laws, as in, could he possibly only have banished Satan away from his presence but go no further, or something deeper that we don't know about? Because there seems to be a reason why Satan is allowed to wait until the end of this Earth as we know it before he is locked away. Or is there another reason found in Scripture that is more obvious?

If I’m not careful, this might turn into a really giant essay, instead of a moderately giant one, and no one will read it. Still, it’s an enormous subject: how could a good God allow suffering?

For years I’ve shilled for Randy Alcorn’s Heaven on this forum and in real life! Now let me briefly also promote his latest book, which reads a lot like Heaven and is a natural followup to that book: If God is Good (why does He allow sin and death?).

Elsendor, I can’t highly enough recommend that book, along with Alcorn’s Heaven. It doesn’t answer every single question, for sure, but it answers a lot of them. Alcorn’s Biblical basis is firm, his reasoning sound and his heart compassionate, and he does a wonderful job balancing the truths of God’s sovereignty and man’s free will. That, coupled with the already-excellent responses here, is a great way to keep exploring these in-depth topics.

First, a few responses to the two most recent posts. Then I’ll try to go what sounds on the surface as really deep. That’s what I once thought. Then I found that among the puzzling truths of the Bible, it’s actually one of the less-difficult concepts to consider.

I know part of my issue is probably pride--my mom says I think too much that I know better than God. It's not that I'm going to stop being a Christian because I don't like what God is doing--it's more like... Okay, God. I'll do what you say--but why?

Here I’ll echo StudyMate’s above encouragement:

I don't think it's a prideful thing to wonder why God placed the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the garden -I think it's a perfectly valid question and what's more is I know God's big enough and faithful enough to answer you on it if you really seek Him about it.

And anyway, who among us is totally innocent of sometimes thinking we know better than God?

If God didn’t want us asking questions to learn, He wouldn’t have given us a revealed Word that is so encompassing and complex enough to keep us delving deep into it for centuries.

Learning and living out His truths is part of how we grow in loving Him. Relationship with Him, and getting to know Him, are inseparable. (That also goes back to our exchange, StudyMate. You can’t have true “doctrine” without love of God. And you can’t have true love for Him without doctrine. We should not downplay one or the other.)

So Elsendor, in case you feel guilty for asking questions or conversing about it — please don’t!

Why God does what He does

I know that God [put the Tree in the Garden of Eden and allowed evil] because He would not force us to love Him... but why did that matter so much?

Here is where I think some evangelicals have dropped the ball. I think I can say that without bringing up as much of the predestination/free-will debate that has come up so many times before. (I’m not saying that was wrong, though, and I don’t mind going there if someone asks.)

A lot of Christians’ explanations about why God would allow humans to have the chance to sin against Him have been imbalanced. They’ve focused overmuch on the whole “God wants to allow free will” side of things. I’m not saying that’s wrong, just only part of the explanation. God loves people, but why? Yes, He wants to give them freedom (though some ideas of “free will” are wrong), but why?

Recently I tried to give the most Biblical answer, though it’s still mysterious. But I think it got buried in the shuffle (the same way The Old Maid’s questions will be if no one answers her!). In that post were plenty of verses about not just the truth that God loves, but why He does anything.

To what greater end does God love?

Biblical answer: God loves, God acts, everything God does is for His own glory, His Name's sake, to exalt Himself and make His Name known.

That's the greater meaning, and the greater mystery, all at once.

Here's more, from Desiring God Ministries. [. . .]

Both the Old and New Testament tell us that God's loving us is a means to our glorifying him.

“Christ became a servant ... in order that the nations might glorify God for his mercy” (Romans 15:8-9). God has been merciful to us so that we would magnify him.

We see it again in the words, “In love [God] destined us to adoption ... to the praise of the glory of His grace” (Ephesians 1:4-6). In other words, the goal of God's loving us is that we might praise him.

One more illustration from Psalm 86 “I will glorify your name forever. For your lovingkindness toward me is great.”

God's love is the ground. His glory is the goal.

This is shocking. The love of God is not God's making much of us, but God's saving us from self-centeredness so that we can enjoy making much of him forever. And our love to others is not our making much of them, but helping them to find satisfaction in making much of God.

True love aims at satisfying people in the glory of God. Any love that terminates on man is eventually destructive. It does not lead people to the only lasting joy, namely, God.

Love must be God-centered, or it is not true love; it leaves people without their final hope of joy.

(Emphases and paragraph breaks added.)

So that’s the emphasis: God loves, God punishes, whatever, God does anything, for His glory.

I think many Christians can get through life, thanks to the Spirit, even if they do not try to contemplate and rejoice in the truth that all of what God does is primarily for Himself and His own good pleasure. But they may be more confused about things like death, suffering and injustice.

And lest it sound like God is “selfish,” we’re also reassured in Scripture that He is good and kind. And He is the only Being Who can properly, with equal love and righteousness, seek His own glory.

If He did anything less, that is, valued something more highly than Himself, He would not be God. He would be breaking the First Commandment, “thou shalt have no other gods before Me.” He would be an idiot, and He would not be love. After all, what greater gift could He offer people but Himself? If He offered someone anything else instead of Himself, He would be cruel, unjust, unmerciful, disgusting.

‘Best of all possible worlds’

I’ve come to love that phrase, not just because it sounds like an episode title for Star Trek: The Next Generation, but because it describes an actual high concept that we can understand — and which is implicit in Scripture.

If God is good, and Christians know He is, why does He allow death, sin and suffering, which are bad?

Most often, Christians talk about God working all things together for His good and the good of His people (Romans 8). That’s part of the truth.

Other Christians go further and talk about how sin has corrupted the world. Therefore the bad things that happen are because of sin, not because of God, they say. Yes, that’s partly true, but does that mean God is helpless in the face of sin? No way. Could He not have prevented Adam and Eve by the simple matter of removing the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the first place? He could have.

But He chose not to. I think we can see Biblically and with a little philosophy that He had good reason. There’s an idea, originated from a German mathematician and philosopher named Gottfried Leibniz, called the “best of all possible worlds” concept. Here’s how one blogger summarizes it:

Leibniz says that God possesses infinite wisdom, therefore when God does something He always does it in the wisest, most perfect, and most desirable way possible. Therefore, when God created the world that we see before us today, we can know that this world exists as the best of all possible worlds, because it was made in the wisest way possible.

If we were to say that God did not create the world in the wisest way possible, we would be saying that God could have created the world in a wiser or better way. To say that is to find fault with God, and this clearly cannot happen according to Leibniz; and I agree wholeheartedly.

Leibniz is on to something here that many in our modern day do not embrace; God’s love for His own glory over all other things. Leibniz says God “does nothing for which He does not merit being glorified.” This means that God’s greatest desire is to be glorified, and because of this, everything He does serves the end of His own being made much of.

Therefore if God were to create a world in which He was not fully glorified or treasured, that world would be lacking in the most vital way possible. Therefore the logical conclusion of this thought is that God is fully glorified in this world, because this world exists, knowing that this world would not exist unless it was the best possible of all worlds, because God does all things in the most perfect and desirable manner possible.

(Edited only for paragraph division.)

Again, John Piper is one of the best teachers about God doing everything — love, punishment, and working in history to save His people from rebellion — for the sake of His Own Name and glory. Piper’s site says:

[T]he best-of-all-possible worlds [. . .] means that God governs the course of history so that, in the long run, His glory will be more fully displayed and His people more fully satisfied than would have been the case in any other world. If we look only at the way things are now in the present era of this fallen world, this is not the best-of-all-possible worlds. But if we look at the whole course of history, from creation to redemption to eternity and beyond, and see the entirety of God's plan, it is the best-of-all-possible plans and leads to the best-of-all-possible eternities. And therefore this universe (and the events that happen in it from creation into eternity, taken as a whole) is the best-of-all-possible-worlds.

So with that in mind, I wonder if Christians might venture clear-yet-with-mystery answers to this:

Is it a case of God being bound by his own natural laws, as in, could he possibly only have banished Satan away from his presence but go no further, or something deeper that we don't know about?

Well, Scripture shows that God can do anything that is intrinsically possible to Him. He “cannot” (if we can even use the word) make a square circle; that’s an intrinsic impossibly. He “cannot” temporarily stop existing; that would violate His nature. He “cannot” turn into a rabbit. He “cannot” hate for no reason. He “cannot” sin, or change His characteristics, or fail to love Himself or His people.

Does that mean He somehow “could not” kill Satan right then and there, for leading the revolt against His rule? I don’t know. But if His ultimate goal is His glory and making the “best of all possible worlds” to maximize Himself in love and power, He would do whatever is necessary to further that goal.

That had to have included letting Satan come down to tempt Adam and Eve. Why? It happened, and God in His sovereignty allowed it. Still, it was Adam’s and Eve’s choice, and consequences.

Because there seems to be a reason why Satan is allowed to wait until the end of this Earth as we know it before he is locked away. Or is there another reason found in Scripture that is more obvious?

Alcorn capitalizes on several Biblical reasons God prolongs His punishment of evil. The main one is that if God destroyed evil now, that would also nuke many, many people He wants to be saved.

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
2 Peter 3:9

Note that Peter is writing to believers, and in a sense to those who will later become believers — so in a sense, his words to apply to the wider world, not just the Church, but only to those whom God will save. He’s delaying His judgment — which will happen, Peter goes on to say — because He is good and He wants to save more people.

Furthermore, He loves the world, as StudyMate pointed out from John 3:16. He is working to save His world, His whole creation, and remodel it with the addition of Heaven, as described in Isaiah and in Revelation 21. To that end, and to make the best possible world, He is working as He does.

Briefly on John 3:16 and other ‘Heaven’ book

That leads me to one brief comment on her quotation of the verse a few posts ago.

And as it says in John 3:16 God loved the WHOLE world, not just those who are going to Heaven, but everyone.

Should we infer from this that God loves everyone in the world absolutely equally? The world here is the Greek kosmos, implying not every single person in the world but the world/universe in its entirety.

Also note John 3:18: “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.” Can we really say that God loves those whom He has already condemned, just as much as He loves those who believe?

I don’t mean to imply that they are some kind of super-special people, thanks to something they did. Instead, it’s God Himself Who makes them borne again. He works through the influence of His Spirit, Who miraculously and mysteriously “blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes” (verse 8). People don’t choose to be born themselves. And other passages, such as Romans 9, extend on God’s freedom to love people however He chooses.

On Alcorn's Heaven, I haven't heard any comments on the book I found: Anthony DeStefano, A travel guide to Heaven, c2003. Has anyone else read this one? I can pick this one up fairly soon but am hoping for a review first.

I haven’t read it, yet I did read over some Amazon reviews and endorsements on the author’s website. It sounds like while he’s hit on the truth that the future Heaven will be a New Earth, he hasn’t based his speculation about Heaven’s joys on Scripture nearly as much as Alcorn did.

Also, I wonder if this author made it clear enough in his book that not everyone will get to the current Heaven, or the future New Heavens and New Earth. That’s one thing I appreciated so much about Alcorn’s book: he wrote it not just for “safe” Christians, but unsaved Churchians and non-believers. In one vital chapter up front, he warns that Heaven is not your default destination. If you don’t love Christ, out of gratitude for what He’s done to save you from a fair fate as a rebel in Hell, you would not enjoy Heaven — and sadly, you would not be going there.

Old Maid, if you do get it, I’d love to hear your thoughts. Yet you know which book I’d recommend instead.

As for the question of why does God allow evil? I have a few thoughts to add. I mentioned above that God has attributes of Love, Justice, Holiness, etc. Among these attributes is Mercy, Grace, Long-Suffering, etc. Here is a thought, if God did not allow sin to enter the world, how could he demonstrate Mercy? How could he be Patient beyond our wildest dreams with us? How could he give us Peace to where we would understand it? Amazingly enough, God could not reveal his full glory if we had not sinned.

My pastor a couple years ago gave a spectacular Easter series sermon. He described the process of Restoration and how he takes us from sinful creatures to a fully restored piece of art. And he used a motorcycle for an example, even having it beside the stage as a visual aid.

The first week (before Palm Sunday), we saw the bike's skeleton after it had been beaten up, used, stripped to its frame, and hardly look at all like it had been a functional motorcyle. He described this is how we are in our sinful state. We are junk and unuseable in God's eyes. Even the useable parts have already been stripped down and used else where. After that, he began to paint a picture of how someone sees the frame of that motorcycle and buys it with the intent of restoring it.

Then on Palm Sunday, we say a motorcycle in the restorative process. Parts of the frame were replaced, some of the innards were put back together, but it was clearly not finished. My pastor then described that as us now as Christians. There is a popular saying that says, "God's not done with me yet." As Christians and as we grow in Christ, we are in this restoration process. We begin to look much more like a finished motorcycle instead of just a hardly recognizable frame. But we are not finished yet.

Finally on Easter Sunday, we saw the finished work. And the motorcycle was a beauty (this is from someone who is NOT a biker). Polished exterior with fresh paint, and everything fully functional. This is the state that God is bringing us to when our time is up. This is what we will be like in heaven. We will be 100% fully restored, perfect, and fully functional. Now here is the real kicker. Using that motorcycle as the example, the bike became more valuable monetarily in its restored state than any equivalent model brand new. This is not just in the restorer's eyes. This is how we are as well. When God is finished with us, we will be better in our restored state than we would have been had we not sinned at all. And that is all due to the Creator that knows more about us and how we work than we do or could.

And just to be sure, I am not saying anything that we are special in our own regards. Like the motorcycle, we can't help the state we are in. Only our creator can. Now the motorcycle clearly is an imperfect model, as is anything else we try to us, but it gives the idea. Sin is still a bad thing and we should never try to use the excuse of "God will make it good in the end" to sin, but we can see that no matter what state we are in, God is capable and strive to restore us into an even more glorious state than we would be in had we never sinned at all. I am looking forward to seeing who I will be when God is finished with me and I am looking foward to seeing the many other Christians that God is currently in progress with.

A lot of people ask why God has allowed Satan to roam free since he was beaten at the cross and the grave. One answer is that God isn't done yet. His word has not come to fruition in its entirety yet. But it will and it is coming soon. And I am excited about that day.

My most pressing question has always been If God really doesn't want to send anyone to hell, then why did he put the Tree there in the first place?--in other words, why did he allow opportunities for man to sin. I know that He did it because He would not force us to love Him... but why did that matter so much? I can't fathom why it is so much more important that we choose Him than that those headed for Hell are saved. It still doesn't sit right with me.

Yes, we have free will. We can choose life or we can choose death [Deuteronomy 30]. Why? Forced love isn't love. God CHOSE to create the universe. God CHOSE to create man that He CHOOSES to love. And God created man in His image -- with free will, i.e. choice. Essentially, we have free will because God has free will. We're not robots because He isn't. And we're created in His image.

It used to bother me that Jesus died on the cross in my place -- but not realizing what that meant. I once thought He had to. And resentment was the result. But Jesus didn't "have" to. He doesn't "have" to do anything. "Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?" [Matthew 26] Jesus died in my place voluntarily. Just like Adam in disobedience selfishly chose eternal death, so Jesus in obedience unselfishly chose eternal life -- through death on a cross. That's what Gethsemane is all about: Jesus voluntarily yielding to the will of the Father by giving His life as a sacrifice for sin [Matthew 26:39, 42]. So now, through Christ, we can choose life.

Hope this helps. If you're interested, check out the link in my signature "Redemption: Jesus drank your cup!"

(edited)

One thing that I've been struggling with is understanding how so many Christians feel that we are in a flawed world, that this world is forsaken and will only be remade as a "New Earth" at the end of days, that life is wretched and that we must all live waiting for death.

I see perfection and beauty on this earth. The patterns of trees or the meeting of the sky against the horizon of the sea fills me with a sense of God. I see God in the wonderful things of this planet all around. I do not see life as a painful struggle, or a "test" meant to be endured, but glorious. I love life, and understand that this world is a "meta" good, in which all things comprise a whole. From what I understand, this is not a Christian perspective, but why? Why cannot Christians see the beauty and genius of this life, and find God in all things? Does the Christian God believe his work to be imperfect? If he does not, then why do we? And if he does, then what is perfection?

Fencer: Here is a thought, if God did not allow sin to enter the world, how could he demonstrate Mercy? How could he be Patient beyond our wildest dreams with us? How could he give us Peace to where we would understand it? Amazingly enough, God could not reveal his full glory if we had not sinned.

I understand what you’re saying here, and I think I agree with this concept relative to after we had sinned. However I see a difference between Adam handing over dominion of the Earth to Satan and God having to counter that by sending Jesus and redemption, and God allowing Satan on this Earth in the first place. I’m inclined to think there is something deeper here that we are not told, or that the ‘God does everything for His greater glory’ idea fits in, or that we would have sinned eventually anyway with or without Satan here to tempt us, it just seems that having Satan here is an especially cruel way to fall *again, thinking with my human mindset*.

Because if what you’re saying above applies to the time before Satan came along to tempt Adam & Eve, it is by default negating the experiences Adam had with God before the fall –that even though Adam was able to walk and talk with Him as to a man, he was not able to realise God’s patience, love, mercy etc. until Adam needed those things to be saved from his sin?

Dr.Elwin Ransom: The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
2 Peter 3:9

I understand the [amazing!] concept behind this scripture, I suppose I was just wondering if any of this would have been necessary if God hadn’t allowed Satan to roam the earth at all, and instead locked him away from the moment he fell from Heaven, and why didn't he? etc. But the ideas you’ve pointed out in regards to God acting in his wisdom and as a rule can only act in goodness is the answer I’m really looking for. If there was another way to do things, he would have done it, so what he has done must be the ‘best possible of all worlds’. That makes an incredible amount of sense, thank you for sharing all of that.

(p.s I think you’ve quoted me instead of another participant about halfway down your response, unless I’ve been writing things in my sleep )

Berserker: I see perfection and beauty on this earth. The patterns of trees or the meeting of the sky against the horizon of the sea fills me with a sense of God. I see God in the wonderful things of this planet all around. I do not see life as a painful struggle, or a "test" meant to be endured, but glorious...

I think there is a difference between longing for Heaven and the next world because you are so in love with Jesus that you just want to be with him all the time, and longing for heaven because you are feeling sick of the seemingly never-ending problems, responsibilities and trials of life in the current world, and don’t feel like you have the energy or Godly power to keep going. Even from a non-selfish viewpoint; having to witness the trials and sufferings of others is a huge burden on one’s soul –though I think the latter feeling-sick-of-it-all reason is usually born out of a place of sorrow or suffering (look at Elijah when he felt alone and weary!). Looking at the incredible beauty of even this [flawed] world, the trees and stars, the miracle of birth etc, can sound a bit hollow when your mother is diagnosed with cancer or you lose your job, your town is flattened by an earthquake etc!

Even if I become a wiz-bang Christian who can heal the sick, raise the dead, set the captives free, loosen the bonds etc (and I believe this is what Jesus meant when he taught us to pray that God’s will would happen HERE on earth, as it is in heaven, and no amount of escapist theology can cover that up) I find it interesting that Paul, the ultimate Christian example if you will, grew ‘weary’-and I say that cautiously because I can’t find the exact scripture where he is sort of fare welling his church- of the race and looked forward to the end. I think it is a natural reaction –Satan is the prince of this world, I am part of another and long for the day when I can belong solely to that world where Jesus is King.

As an aside to Elsendor: another good book on the trial of suffering and why God allows pain is one by Lee Strobel…The Case for Faith I think it was. Some of his theology on hell is a bit iffy , but the book does strive to answer some of the most difficult questions in the way a journalist would investigate a news story –plenty of interviews with leading atheists and hard core Bible teachers.

*pokes timidly in* I just saw something that I had to comment on.

I see perfection and beauty on this earth. The patterns of trees or the meeting of the sky against the horizon of the sea fills me with a sense of God. I see God in the wonderful things of this planet all around. I do not see life as a painful struggle, or a "test" meant to be endured, but glorious. I love life, and understand that this world is a "meta" good, in which all things comprise a whole. From what I understand, this is not a Christian perspective, but why? Why cannot Christians see the beauty and genius of this life, and find God in all things? Does the Christian God believe his work to be imperfect? If he does not, then why do we? And if he does, then what is perfection?

I meant to only quote a little bit of your post, but upon reading it through several times, I just had to reply to as much of it as I could. As a Christian, I too see perfection and beauty in this world! It is so full of it! I could go on and on about just the tiniest thing that is full of beauty, but I see that you do not need to be convinced of these facts.

However, I would certainly not go so far as to make the statement that the world itself is perfect. I can't see how that can honestly be said; I mean, look around at all the suffering and wickedness and corruption. Yes, it is there, and it can't be ignored.

God did create each thing that is lovely and good, and I know many Christians who enjoy the beauty and perfection that can be found in this world. To be sure there are many who may overlook or under-appreciate His beauty, but I can't say that there are any more Christian than non-Christians who do this. It seems to be more a lifestyle than one's faith that makes one ignore things like that.

Does the Christian God believe his work to be imperfect?

Well, the Bible, Genesis 1:31, says:

Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good.

So yes, God's creations are perfect. What is not perfect, is the sin that has come into the world, and marred His most perfect creations. I think StudyMate's points above that a personal sorrow or tragedy can make even the most beautiful thought, sight, or feeling fake and surreal, is a very excellent one indeed.

The thing that I find somewhat singular about your post, Berserker, is that you make no mention of sin whatsoever. You wonder that we Christians find the world a "wretched" place, but you don't seem to acknowledge that there are plenty of reasons for us to find it a wretched place.

Yes, it annoys me sometimes (and I probably sin in doing so) when some Christians can find nothing whatsoever of beauty in this world, and are bound on just getting through earthly life as fast as they can. Personally, I deal with the opposite. Sometimes I worry that I love life, and things in this life, too much. I love to feel and breathe and create and live beauty. Because I am afraid that, sometimes in marveling at the beauty of an object, I forget the reason, the Creator. And then usually when I start becoming too fond and in-love with earthly pleasures, something comes along that knocks me down and humbles me and makes me recognize what I have been missing all along.

In the End, I suppose the point is, that while yes, we are put on earth to "enjoy Him forever," we are also put here first to "glorify God." Life is not about Us. It is about Him.

*randomly pops in*

DTR, I'm kinda commenting on your post, and on Beserker's post:

I don't think of the world as being corrupt, I think of the world as being something completely perfect God made...and then sin entered. And the rest is history

But even so I think this world is pretty awesome I'm certainly not complaining to live in it! I like living...I'm not all "oh, I just can't wait to go to heaven." I would like to live as long a life as possible before that happens, even though heaven will be amazing, I want to experience life on earth as well, cause it really is a wonderful life

It could be argued that evil was around before man's beginning. There is an absolute right and an absolute wrong. These are not always the same in our eyes as they are God's. So God creates man. Why did God create man? Who knows really. I like to think God is a bit of an artist. He is, after all, a creator of things. So He creates man in His image. I think He wanted to be loved by man. Man with free will of course. Man with the choice to love or to not love. Because forceful love isn't love.

Angels were around before humans and they had choices as well. Or so it would seem that they did. Many went with lucifer when he fell. I'm assuming they made that choice. So why is it that God created man? He had the angels love. Maybe He feels that angels are more of a creation than an offspring. The Bible does say that we will judge angels. 1 Corinthians 6:3.

Just thoughts really but I do wonder about that.

Why did God create man?

For His glory -- because, seeing as how God did it, and His chief end in doing anything is to glorify Himself, He had to have believed it would give more glory to Himself to create man, than not to create man.

Again, I think the "best of all possible worlds" concept helps explain this.

Why cannot Christians see the beauty and genius of this life, and find God in all things?

As Valiant_Lucy beautifully and succinctly wrote above, we can, and I believe most Christians do. God has not abandoned this world. Through common grace in the world's beauties, and in ordered societies and good deeds even by non-Christians, He shows Himself. Yet especially through His specific grace in His people the Church, He shows us hints of what this world was meant to be, and what the future world will be.

Still, it points to "setting our hearts on things above," as the Apostle Paul wrote. Or as C.S. Lewis famously said, "Aim for Heaven and you will get Earth thrown in; aim for Earth and you will get neither."

One thing that I've been struggling with is understanding how so many Christians feel that we are in a flawed world, that this world is forsaken and will only be remade as a "New Earth" at the end of days, that life is wretched and that we must all live waiting for death.

I see perfection and beauty on this earth. The patterns of trees or the meeting of the sky against the horizon of the sea fills me with a sense of God. I see God in the wonderful things of this planet all around. I do not see life as a painful struggle, or a "test" meant to be endured, but glorious. I love life, and understand that this world is a "meta" good, in which all things comprise a whole. From what I understand, this is not a Christian perspective, but why? Why cannot Christians see the beauty and genius of this life, and find God in all things? Does the Christian God believe his work to be imperfect? If he does not, then why do we? And if he does, then what is perfection?

I agree with others that Christians find plenty of beauty on this earth, that beauty being a reflection of God's perfect and eternal beauty. I was driving all day in Virginia [the rural part] and just kept looking around [and yet with my eyes on the road ] at all the beauty around me! I even asked God, "Did you see that lake? Those mountains? The flowers?" Well, of course He did! God made it all and tends it day and night. He's the perfect gardener.

Anyway, in response to your post...
1.

God has not abandoned this world. Through common grace in the world's beauties, and in ordered societies and good deeds even by non-Christians, He shows Himself. Yet especially through His specific grace in His people the Church, He shows us hints of what this world was meant to be, and what the future world will be.

Well said. Yes, we're in a flawed world and yes it will be remade as a "new earth." But that doesn't mean the world is forsaken! It's not! As I said before, God takes care of the earth day and night. It's only by His power that the world, the entire universe, continues to exist. If He spoke the word, it would all fall apart. [See Job 34:14-15.]

2. Sometimes life is wretched. I know. I've suffered a lot physically, financially, emotionally, and spiritually. I've been through a kind of hell since 2005. And yet I haven't suffered as much as others. I don't know that I could live like Paul. [See 2 Corinthians 11:23-28.] But do we live waiting for death? No. We live waiting (1) for what happens beyond death: heaven, our true and real and eternal home; (2) for Jesus Christ to return and take us there [the rapture].

3. I agree with Destined and Valiant that you don't mention sin. This is what makes this world imperfect. And I would go further than that. The biggest evidence that this world isn't perfect is the presence of death. Everything dies. Haven't you noticed that yet? Everything. Nothing lives forever. And the reason for that is sin. Sin brings death--in body [all things], soul, [animals and man] and spirit [man alone]. God made everything very good, but man messed it up. [See Genesis 3, Romans 5:12-14, 8:20-22.]

4. So that brings us to perfection. What is it? The absence of sin and death. God alone is perfect. He alone is holy, i.e. without sin. And God reigns in heaven, also without sin and death. "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" [Revelation 21]. This is what we wait for, a world without suffering and pain and death.

I find it interesting that Paul, the ultimate Christian example if you will, grew ‘weary’-and I say that cautiously because I can’t find the exact scripture where he is sort of fare welling his church- of the race and looked forward to the end. I think it is a natural reaction –Satan is the prince of this world, I am part of another and long for the day when I can belong solely to that world where Jesus is King.

I like the way you phrased that last bit. Regarding Paul's farewell, are you referring to this? 2 Timothy 4:6-8: "For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."

It could be argued that evil was around before man's beginning.

I thought this was obvious. I think Satan's fall from heaven happened before the creation of the universe.

Regarding Eden and why God allows suffering, we seem to have forgotten that Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, was slain from the foundation of the world [Revelation 13:8, cf 1 Peter 1:20] = before Adam sinned, before he was even created. What does this mean? It means God created Adam with laminin ... love cells! Before Adam sinned, the cross was in his body! The glory of God is the cross of Jesus Christ. He is the image of the invisible God, remember? [Colossians 1] The fullness of the Godhead bodily! [Colossians 2]

What does all this mean? God allows suffering because in the person of Jesus Christ He suffered for us. "For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings" [Hebrews 2]. Sanctification [holiness, being set apart] requires suffering, testing, trials, temptations. You wanna get into the depths of God's personality and character and just His whole being? Study the nature and beauty of sacrifice. Study Judges 13 [especially vs. 19-20]. Our God is a consuming fire [Deuteronomy 4:24, Hebrews 12:29].

Something else to consider: "the glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former" [Haggai 2]. The glory of the risen Christ, and of life in Him, exceeds the glory of the Eden we all lost. And the glory of being with Christ in heaven, of the new heaven and new earth, will exceed the glory of the Christian life here.

*randomly pops in*

DTR, I'm kinda commenting on your post, and on Beserker's post:

I don't think of the world as being corrupt, I think of the world as being something completely perfect God made...and then sin entered. And the rest is history

But even so I think this world is pretty awesome I'm certainly not complaining to live in it! I like living...I'm not all "oh, I just can't wait to go to heaven." I would like to live as long a life as possible before that happens, even though heaven will be amazing, I want to experience life on earth as well, cause it really is a wonderful life

Neither do I think of the world as a corrupt creation. And thank you, Valiant Lucy for your wonderful post. Maybe it is a case of people looking too much on the negative side and not at how lucky we are to be alive in such a wonderfully beautiful world.

This year there seems to have been quite a few strong earthquakes, and I am wondering if there are more than is usual, and why that is so. There was the tragic Haiti earthquake in January, following on from a tremor in California. In February there was the massive Chilean earthquake which shifted a whole city a few metres westwards, and which seemed to have endless aftershocks, some almost as bad as the original quake. In March there was another quake, on the Mexican border with California, and others have happened in the Solomons, in Indonesia and elsewhere. Even staid Melbourne felt the earth move, whilst Adelaide has also been shook up in a minor earthquake.

In Kalgoorlie, on the diametrically opposite side of the world from Las Vegas, an historic gold rush hotel was damaged in another minor quake. Then at the same time as that Icelandic volcano with the unpronounceable name erupted, there was another dangerous earthquake on the opposite side of the Indo-Australian tectonic plate, in remote China, near Tibet. The Icelandic volcano, itself, caused massive disruption to air traffic from London to the rest of the world. Down Under, parents had to account for children unable to attend school due to being stranded across the world by an erupting Icelandic volcano, whilst Australians and New Zealanders alike worried about being able to attend the Dawn Service in Turkey at Gallipoli. Meanwhile, stranded travellers were left out of pocket when insurance firms refused to reimburse claims, due to the Icelandic volcano being an 'Act of God'.

But as disruptive as all these events may be to human affairs, are they really 'disasters', or that trusty insurance cop-out - 'Acts of God'? Or should such events be regarded more like God's routine housecleaning and shifting the furniture? Necessary processes to breathe new life into the world and refresh what is here, which are likely to cause damage and inconvenience from time to time, to anyone who gets in the way?

Much of what we do suffer, even during earthquakes isn't the fault of nature at all. It is more often due to corrupt governments, public and private greed and shoddy workmanship, though even the strongest regulations and most marvellous workmanship might not withstand the most massive and mighty earthquakes. Most of our miseries are due to war and conflict among ourselves, due to injustices and selfishness.

Today is Anzac Day. At Church, where we wore sprigs of rosemary, I thought of Shadowlander's favourite hymns such as Onward Christian Soldiers, the offertory hymn, and God is our strength and refuge, which is sung to a tune which is also a war movie theme. Another hymn was 'Oh God our help in ages past', written by Isaac Watts and traditionally sung on New Year's Day. Already there have been Dawn Services, not only the one in Turkey which should have started by now, not to mention others in Fromelles, Ypres and at other places in Flanders where ANZAC troops fought in WW1.

The worst disasters in the 20th century were World Wars I and II, whatever natural disasters also happened. There were other horrifying conflicts as well, some, but not all of which involved ANZAC troops. We remember those troops who died, sacrificing their young lives for what they believed was a worthy cause, in service to their country and to fight against murderous tyranny.

Lest we forget.