*waxes contemplative and diverges ever so gently from the current topic of discussion*

My wife and I went to Guilford Courthouse Memorial Battlefield today, a landmark which marks an important Revolutionary War battle which occurred in the latter days of that war. I'm kind of a sucker for museums and battlefields and such and get all giddy when someone rolls a cannon out (I know...I know..."is there a point to your little story, SL? Get on with it!" ). At any rate, there's a little access road that goes around the battlefield and you can stop and read little placards describing what action happened where and who was involved, etc. It was just the prettiest Spring day you can imagine; the temperature was at about 75 degrees, very little humidity, and this soft, persistent breeze blowing across everything. The dogwoods are in bloom, azalea bushes are blossoming all over, and as I was looking over one particular spot on the field I couldn't help but think how very beautiful a day it was and how everything just felt perfect. And of course that set the wheels in my mind turning. See, we're living in what Lewis called the Shadowlands here...a faint echo of what our eternal home will be like.

My perspective has been changed dramatically after I read Alcorn's Heaven, enough so that I think a lot on the matter nowadays. And I wonder if perhaps I was allowed a small glimpse today. The Bible says much on the subject and yet so little at the same time, and I have to wonder if that's intentional. There's enough there to whet our appetites and quite a bit left over to let our imaginations run amok. Take the dimensions for the New Jerusalem as stated in Revelation 21, for instance. The city is roughly 1,500 miles wide and long and its base is a square, with 3 gates on each side.

The height of the city is 1,500 miles as well...imagine standing outside New Jerusalem. You look to your left and right and there are tall, thick walls running completely out of sight both ways...imagine looking straight up and seeing Heavenly buildings and spires stretching out so high that they run past high cirrus clouds and further up into dazzlingly azure skies, until they fade completely out from view. Imagine entering New Jerusalem at ground level and how long it would take just to walk to the top (which is well inside Earth's orbit ). When I run the images through my mind I stand in total awe of it...the Celestial City is quite a sight to behold.

But it doesn't end there . Since the whole of Creation will have been remade at this point, back to its original pristine condition, there's still more of the globe to see. And well beyond it too. I love astronomy and I like to keep up with all the hot topics of space exploration. The idea of our reaching out into our stellar neighborhood and exploring it excites me to no end. When I think the technology is in our grasp right now, in our sin-cursed, frail bodies, to colonize our moon, potentially terraform another planet such as Mars (though it would likely take perhaps 1,000 years to complete ), and to perhaps venture off to nearby stars it makes me light up like a Christmas tree. And that's in our current state, laden with sin and broken down bodies and faulty hearts. I can't fathom how much more capable we'll be when we're given new bodies to help in our tasks. So even now when I see we can build moon colonies and send humans to Mars, and it excites me, I know realistically that at best I'd be living vicariously on the adventures of a select few very blessed people specially trained to go such places and do such things. But there, in the New Heavens I'll really be able to do all of this. I cannot adequately explain the intense longing I have explore the universe like I do. I hunger for it...ever since I was a little kid I wanted to be an astronaut (my 1st grade pictures of Saturn V rockets and space shuttles corroborate my tale ), but I begin to really wonder if maybe that really will be my "job" when I finally get to the New Earth. I've really begun to believe maybe that's what I was designed for in that new, upcoming world. And to think that Christ Himself will be physically standing right beside me the whole time is just...I don't have the words.

Ok, so I got a little mushy and starry eyed there for a little bit (literally ) but try not to hold it against me. I felt the urge to share it with you folks . So tell me what you guys' aspirations and hopes are for employment in the New World? I'm kind of curious if anyone else has the same kind of...pull...that I'm feeling.

I've read half of Randy Alcorn's book - Heaven so far, it's very good. I don't know what God has in store for me in the New Earth. I'm going to be a teacher here but I've always wanted to draw for a living, so maybe I could do that on Earth when it's restored to perfection.

Speculating on what the New Heaven and New Earth will be in always a fun and interesting topic. But first off, the stereotypical view of heaven is simply NOT the case. We will not just be sitting there for all of eternity, playing harps, and doing nothing else. We will be worshiping God for all of eternity, but as we have discussed, worship entails a wide variety of things. The Bible says we will be rulers of the new world. Rules of what? Rulers of whom? Good questions that I can only speculate on.

I've always senses that there are more than three dimensions on our current world that is corrupted by sin. We see length and width. We percieve depth from those two. But the Bible speaks of length, width, depth, and breadth. So when the current universe is destroyed and sin with it, I believe we will get to live in those four dimensions. Now, God is infinite and no matter how many dimensions we will get to live in, God will always be above that. I've also heard and can easily see that we will get to a significantly wider range of colors, hear new sounds, smell new smells that we simply can't percieve at this point. I also imagine that the harmful sights, sounds, and smells will no longer be painful.

As for tasks in heaven, I have no idea what the limitations would be. Sport may still take place, but not in the context that we know many of them today. A number of sports derived from pride, saying 'my team is better than your team', but there is also a side of sports that is totally godly. God will give us work, because that was a God-given task for Adam before he sinned. It wasn't until he sinned that work became toil. So we will get to work and do things that we can not only enjoy, but it will also not be tiring.

Imagine the foods we will be able to eat. Not only will our tastes be vastly improved, the food will actually truly replenish what we spent to get it. Since sin came into the world, it took much more work to get to the food that only provides a fraction of what it used to.

The list goes on and a lot of this is still speculation. I imagine we can't come close to speculating what it will really be like. And that doesn't include truly being in the presense of God without sin being an issue.

Shadowlander, I think I know how you feel. The longing I feel for heaven and the "Real Narnia," so to speak... it's so intense at times that I despair looking at the years of this life still stretched out ahead. I know for sure that God is real, even, because he placed such a need for Him and His kingdom in each of us--something that I can't really reconcile in any other way. It really calls to mind the "God-shaped hole." For me, that is one of the strongest proofs that God is out there, and that we need Him whether we admit it or no.

Your description of the New Jerusalem sent chills down my spine. I don't know what heaven will be like, but I guess it will fill the longing for "the other" that has been a part of me since I was little. (In that way I identify a lot with C.S. Lewis' Surprised by Joy.) The pull, for me, is probably to be free from the struggles of a fallen world and a fallen nature, regardless of what I will be doing in heaven.

I hope I didn't diverge too far from the topic--following up on an already-diverging post. ;]

I've been thinking a lot more about heaven after reading Randy Alcorn's Heaven. I don't know what my job will be on the New Earth. I'm not entirely convinced there will be technology in the New Earth because I can't seem to separate it from destruction. Most modes of transportation are hard on the Earth and the atmosphere. Every where one looks people are taking about how damaging things are (plastic, buildings, paper, etc.) It seems that anything we do would involve some kind of destruction of the world as God made it. I don't doubt that there will be a new Jerusalem but I'm having trouble with the rest. I'm sure I'll be happy in whatever job God gives me. I have so many interests. I really looking forward to being free of my allergies, asthma, other ailments. I'm tired of taking medicines every day. It just occurred to me that I probably won't need glasses anymore either. I like being outdoors, especially riding my bike and everything is so pretty in the spring, but I can't be outside very long before I start getting a headache. I'm looking forward to being able to go outside and enjoy flowers and trees. (By the way, any one know if we will still get sunburned? I also have to be careful because I burn very easily). I had more to say but its time to feed the cats and give one of them her pill and my dad is hinting that I should get moving.

If we're talking about heaven, I have a question for all you "heaven experts"

I've always been under the impression that in heaven there will be no anger, no sadness, etc etc etc. However God gets angry, and sad, and has emotions, right? So how does that fit in there? I've always wondered but never been able to figure it out.

Also: I *know* that heaven will be amazing, and the reason why I'm even asking this in the first place is because I'm human and will never be able to comprehend it until I get there...but I'd still love thoughts on it: will we have emotions in heaven besides just being happy and worshipful all the time? While I don't mind the thought of a perfect place, I do sort of hope that people in heaven, however we are (if we even look like people, or what), will still have human emotions...I find people fasinating, and if the earth was filled with perfect people it wouldn't be very interesting...I like psychology (spl?), and figuring out how the mind works...and alot of that seems to deal with faults, and the "bad" parts of humans...if that makes any sense (I could be completely off). So I just think perfect people wouldn't be very interesting to be around. Again, I know that it will be amazing...I'm just a poor lowly human who is kinda confused.

One more thing...another of my "notions" about heaven that I've just always had, was that everyone is sort of the same. I'm not sure why I think this but it's probably to do with everyone being perfect. I have a fear of being just like everyone else, so I'm scared that in heaven you don't really have an "identity", you're just one of a enourmous crowd.

Any thoughts would be appreciated

I'm not entirely convinced there will be technology in the New Earth because I can't seem to separate it from destruction. Most modes of transportation are hard on the Earth and the atmosphere.

Well, we're not going to be able to get to the far reaches of space by flapping our arms. Seriously, there's nothing inherently wrong with technology. We create...we're programmed to do so, and I imagine that Heaven will be a sort of creator's playground of sorts, heavily bolstered by the fact that we'll be without sin, decay, and will have full mental abilities which far exceed that which we have right now. I'm fairly certain we'll be able to come up with stuff that's not going to be harmful to our New Country.

I've always been under the impression that in heaven there will be no anger, no sadness, etc etc etc. However God gets angry, and sad, and has emotions, right? So how does that fit in there? I've always wondered but never been able to figure it out.

*sigh* Always when I'm at work and don't have access to the verses I need . Alcorn tackles this very question directly in the early part of the book. There's a few verses in Revelation where some Christians have been martyred and are appealing to God to take action and avenge them. And God tells them to be at peace and that He will take action soon enough. It was an interesting selection which not only proved that humans can feel emotions other than happiness but also proved, among other things, that time exists in Heaven.

One more thing...another of my "notions" about heaven that I've just always had, was that everyone is sort of the same. I'm not sure why I think this but it's probably to do with everyone being perfect. I have a fear of being just like everyone else, so I'm scared that in heaven you don't really have an "identity", you're just one of a enourmous crowd.

We were each created as individuals, and individuals we'll stay as. And you're right, if everyone was perfect and alike it would make eternity pretty boring. This was one of the reasons I was always secretly troubled about Heaven growing up. The idea of a stale, eternal church service has no appeal to me at all. Granted, it was infinitely better than the alternative, but in my heart I was never fully satisfied with it, and apparently a lot of others weren't too, which is what prompted Alcorn to start really looking into the Bible and seeing what it really said about Heaven. As I'm at work, like I said earlier, I don't have my copy with me, don't have my Bible, and any Bible verse search engine is blocked by IT, so I'm at something of a disadvantage at the moment or else I'd be able to give lots of chapter and verse things for you to look at.

Thanks for your thoughts, SL ...and something that *just* occured to me is that Jesus is perfect...and when he was on earth, he was never boring. in fact, he is quite interesting, has intelligent thoughts, is wise, has a sense of humor, but can also feel sadness, pain, anger. So, I guess being perfect does not = boring or the same. That makes me feel infinetly better on that subject

Also, I'm thinking I should *really* hunt down a copy of that Heaven book for myself since so many people find it so interesting.

Yes, we have to remember that God/Jesus/the Holy Spirit are the author of everything that is good in our present world. On the New Heaven and the New Earth, we will be one big community of believers but each with our own identity and skills and talents. Which is a relief if you ask me. I don't want to be a disembodied spirit or a holy version of a zombie!

I've always assumed that heaven will be much like it is now. At first that may seem a little ludacris but think about it. How did God make the Earth in the beginning? If that's the way He made it, then I'm sure He intended it to be that way. I think that once heaven is brought to the New Earth it will be much like now. There will be no sin.

I think that's as far as my mind can ever go. Because Heaven is a concept outside of everything I know and understand, I don't think I'll ever comprehend it until I am there. And at that point, I will be ready too. As far as emotions go like anger, sadness, etc I really have no idea. God has righteous anger now but I believe that is due to sin. If there is no sin I would see no reason to get angry or sad.

I think that heaven will be like a big family. All of us worshiping our Father and each of us being a brother and sister to each other. I think we will live together and enjoy our life outside of sin. Just thoughts though.

I imagine we could still have technology on the New Earth. Sci-fi is full of alien races with organic technology, living ships, etc. I don't think it's that far-fetched that perfected human beings could conceive of similar technology.

Speculating on what the New Heaven and New Earth will be in always a fun and interesting topic. But first off, the stereotypical view of heaven is simply NOT the case. We will not just be sitting there for all of eternity, playing harps, and doing nothing else. We will be worshiping God for all of eternity, but as we have discussed, worship entails a wide variety of things. The Bible says we will be rulers of the new world. Rules of what? Rulers of whom? Good questions that I can only speculate on.

Sitting around for ever playing harps seems like the opposite of heaven for me. I would hate that. Good it won't be like that. well i hope not.

I'm not entirely convinced there will be technology in the New Earth because I can't seem to separate it from destruction. Most modes of transportation are hard on the Earth and the atmosphere.

Well, we're not going to be able to get to the far reaches of space by flapping our arms. Seriously, there's nothing inherently wrong with technology. We create...we're programmed to do so, and I imagine that Heaven will be a sort of creator's playground of sorts, heavily bolstered by the fact that we'll be without sin, decay, and will have full mental abilities which far exceed that which we have right now. I'm fairly certain we'll be able to come up with stuff that's not going to be harmful to our New Country.

(that's for the flapping the arms bit). It is so hard for me to figure out to what extent sin has corrupted and tainted things i.e. how much of what goes on is due to sin. Sin is so ingrained ingrained in us it is hard to separate the good from the bad (I hope that makes sense.) I have had things drilled so firmly in my head that it is going to take a while for me to unscrew them / pry them out (whatever it is that one does to remove things that have been drilled ). I can't accept everything in that book at one pass through. My brain is on overload. It is hard to understand. You are probably right but it is so hard when people draw so much attention to the harmful effects of certain technology. Although I suppose even on this Earth, we are moving in the right direction with windmill energy and hybrid cars (like my Prius ). I can't image how we could have cars without car crashes. I'm assuming crashes = bad. Maybe I'm amusing too much.
I'm so confused. (However, I do feel much better than before I read the book but I came out of it with more questions than answers (probably because I really didn't ask any questions.))

I imagine we could still have technology on the New Earth. Sci-fi is full of alien races with organic technology, living ships, etc. I don't think it's that far-fetched that perfected human beings could conceive of similar technology.

I suppose this gets at part of my problem. I'm not a big fan of Sci-fi so that type of stuff is foreign to me. I've seen a bit of one of the Star Wars movies small clips of some shows in the Star Trek family and read the first two books in C.S. Lewis's Space Trilogy and am in the middle of the last one. Oh and I saw the Zenon movies. I might have read some Sci-fi stuff as part of the general curriculum in school too.

If the pastor at my church ever gets his sermon from Sunday online, I'll be posting it to see what others think. I think at the bare minimum he used a poor choice of words but the problem could be worse than that. I don't want to misquote him so I'll wait a little longer. I think he usually puts his sermons out online. If he doesn't I'll just have to go from my memory.

Full of questions and confusion right now...

Yesterday someone from one of the forums I frequent--someone I've talked to--was the victim of a hate crime, to state it softly. He's in the hospital now. (more detail from the link in my sig) The event and the resulting thread in the forum has really shaken me...

First of all is the horrific fact that people do these things do it in God's name. And that these things happen at all.

Second of all... there are a lot of really great people I've talked to who are going to hell.

Every time I ask this question I get nowhere... but I'm hoping someone can help me out. I am having serious trouble trusting God's love--how can he allow such horrible, horrible things to happen? How can he send people to hell like that?

Non-Christians I know say God is petty--that he would throw people into eternal pain and suffering just because they refuse to love and worship and obey him. How can God's love and hell possibly work together?

You raise up one of the most difficult questions Christians face. How can God tolerate the evil that is in this world and send people to hell? And an even tougher question is how to explain this in terms a non-Christian can understand.

First off, we have to understand who God is. Is God a God of Love? Yes. The Bible says clearly that God is Love. But many people reverse it and think because something is not love, then it is not God. Love does not equal God. Now we also have to define what Love is. Paul describes it perfectly in 1 Corinthians 13. Love is an attribute of God but it also not the only attribute.

God is also a God of Justice, of purity, and Righteousness. He has a standard that is absolute perfection. Now, let's take a military perspective here. Let's say the military just came up with a new technology that can not only pinpoint the precise location of a target but completely minimize any collateral damage. Let's also say you work at the plant where these computer chips are created. What standards are going to be used for that chip to be accepted? The military will not want a single chip that has one flaw it it. While not a perfect example, this is the idea of how God has to handle us. Because he is so perfect, so holy, so pure, he cannot dwell intimately with anything that does not meet that standard. So in heaven God cannot take anyone who has sinned even once. The Bible does make it clear that if you are guilty of breaking even one tiny aspect of the Law, you are guilty of breaking the entire Law. If you get caught speeding, and tell the officer you will never do it again, does that change the fact that you broke the Law and sped? Yet we want to take this approach with God.

I mentioned above that God is a God of Justice. When sin takes place, there must be a price to be paid. God doesn't sit up in heaven looking down on us looking for an opportunity to smack us upside the head. The combination of God's attributes of Love and Justice made it really hard for him to have to deal out the punishment. In order to be consistent with himself and his Word, he is required to punish sin. And the only penalty that can pay that price is death. And since everyone has something wrong, every single person is under the condemnation of sin. We don't even have a choice in the matter, since we are born into that condition. So the truth of the matter is God does not send us to hell. We do it ourselves.

But God is a God of Love and does not want us to go to hell. 1 Peter says that God desires that none should perish but that all would come to the saving knowledge and grace of Jesus Christ. So he did the most difficult thing he could have done: paid the price of sin himself. And because Jesus had no sin and the penalty did not apply to him, he was able to pay the price for all who would believe.

Now people say that those that claim Jesus is the only way are simply dogmatic. Well, let's think about this logically. If there was any other way God could have saved us from sin, why would Jesus have to die? Jesus himself begged three times in the Garden if there would be any other way. Jesus is the only way, because that was the only way that could meet the justice that sin demanded without us paying the price ourselves.

So that being said, why does God allow evil things to happen? Perhaps a good place for you to look is the Book of Job. He was a righteous man that God allowed Satan to torment for no other reason other than for God to boast to Satan that any tactics he could use would not get Job to turn against God. God is the master of the universe and we are not in a position to question him. God is not answerable to us.
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As far as the people who beat up the person you mentioned are concerned, the Bible does speak about people who will do terrible things in the name of God, thinking they are doing the right thing. Reacting in violent rage against something is no better than the evil deeds themself. Even if we do not agree with the actions, doing those kinds of things do nothing but put us in a bad light.
[Edit]
Something my Intervarsity Chapter talked about last week during our Bible study was Romans 1-2. In there, Paul described people who reject God and turn away from him. Then as a result of that, God gives them to the sinful actions he lists. A lot of people do what they do because the do not know God and they simply do not know any better. Is this the case for this one person? I won't say because I am not in the place to do so, even if I knew him. But is it the case for the those that beat him up? Quite possibly. They think they are doing the right thing, but it is a lie for the enemy. Something my Intervarsity Area Director suggested when having a discussion with one of these people is that perhaps because of the corruption of sin, what was once a natural attraction is twisted to the point where someone 'could be born that way'. I won't say one way or the other but when you boil it down, every one of us is still entangled with sin somehow. And the Bible describes how being guilty of one sin such as saying a white lie, or simply stealing a 10c newspaper is just as bad as murder, any type of adultery, or witchcraft.

So the question now becomes not how does God deal with these people, but where are our hearts? When an attack like this happens, are we going to condon it, or are we going to reach out to the victim in the Love of Christ? Jesus never promised a good life. He actually promised troubles and the trouble are going to get worse until the time is right. It is very tough to deal with this type of situation and I will be honest in that if I were in it, I might not know what to say.

We still have to realize that we do have an enemy out there that will use any means to steal from us, kill us, or destroy us. And he will use an attack like the one you mentioned simply to give Christians a bad name. All we can do in times like this is trust that God will avenge sin, both here on earth and in the long haul. And the only way out of it is through the Blood of Jesus Christ. I pray that you will find peace and hope in this situation.