Pattertwig, your pastor sounds...interesting. Is there a duration of time that passes before he leaves for another church or is he there for good? Some churches I've seen have pastors rotated regulary in and out after a few years, like a ship command. If he's there for good is there a way that members can vote him out? Especially if he's teetering on the brink of not passing on messages that don't really line up with the Bible! (I somewhat read into your statements and got that idea...if I'm wrong please let me know).

I've been thinking "but I don't want to spend all of my time worshiping it will be so boring and I don't like sing for a long time." Then, I get mad at myself because I should be focusing on God not on what I want.

I think you're not alone there. It was terrible guilt I felt for many years thinking that it would be a dull existence for eternity, and even more guilt for openly using the word "dull" alongside "Heaven". A few years back Doc Ransom and wisewoman recommended a book titled Heaven by a guy named Randy Alcorn. It was an eye-opening read and thoroughly changed my views with regards to how Heaven will actually be. We had a thread on it open a few months back and there was some great discussion on the subject. I'd recommend getting a copy from the library or purchasing a copy for sure. The book is Biblically based and never defies Scripture, although there's a lot of speculation in its pages. The speculation though is based on logical assumptions from what Scripture tells us of our future and eternal home...the Bible doesn't give us every little detail of Heaven and there's lots of things we won't know until we're actually there in person. While I'm 100% certain there will be worship services like we have here and they will occur over eternity, they won't last an eternity. There's going to be plenty of other ways to worship God besides services, and believe me, we're all going to be rather busy!

Jesus was fairly hard on his disciples at times, and some of his parables weren’t very “nice” either.

I very much agree. A straight read of Scripture reveals that Christ was not at all the touchy-feely, love guru who talked about world peace that a lot of folks nowadays say He was. This was a Man who showed humanity its failings (and there are plenty of them) and got in people's faces about it at times, figuratively speaking. Christ was one who spoke very loudly in words, even if it wasn't with a raised volume of voice.

The trouble we have in trying to reconciling NT God with OT God is that, from my standpoint, God is a Person of absolutes. In the world in which we live we see things as right or wrong, and sometimes in grey areas, little spaces where they don't really fit within the right/wrong framework. God does not have this problem and sees in total black/white vision mode, with regards to our actions and thoughts. He shows some latitude and even compassion towards a number of individuals and groups in the OT; Adam and Eve, by rights, could have been wiped from the Earth and by rights they should have been, but were spared. This was an act of incredible clemency on His part. He could have wiped the Jews out and it was only Moses begging for mercy on their behalf that saved their collective necks that day at Mt. Sinai. There's countless examples in there of this, but most people can't get past the fire from the sky/natural cataclysm portion of God's wrath, don't understand that He is a God of absolutes, and has zero tolerance for disobedience. Well...that's my take on it anyways.

Pattertwig, your pastor sounds...interesting. Is there a duration of time that passes before he leaves for another church or is he there for good? Some churches I've seen have pastors rotated regulary in and out after a few years, like a ship command. If he's there for good is there a way that members can vote him out? Especially if he's teetering on the brink of not passing on messages that don't really line up with the Bible! (I somewhat read into your statements and got that idea...if I'm wrong please let me know).

I think he is allowed to stay as long has he likes. However, he is in his early 60s so he might retire soon. There is a way to “vote out” pastors but that can get very nasty. I’m not sure how in tune the general congregation is to the problems with him or if they care. His messages don’t always line up very well with the Bible. I posted parts of one earlier in this thread and the consensus was that it was not good. The hard part is that people don’t always agree on what is Biblically sound. In one sermon, he talked about the Big Bang Theory (agreeing with it). I would call that on the brink but it is acceptable according to the some people. I’m looking forward to the time when I move out and find a new church. If all goes according to my plan, I will have moved out and away by September so I won’t have to deal with it anymore.

A few years back Doc Ransom and wisewoman recommended a book titled Heaven by a guy named Randy Alcorn. It was an eye-opening read and thoroughly changed my views with regards to how Heaven will actually be. We had a thread on it open a few months back and there was some great discussion on the subject. I'd recommend getting a copy from the library or purchasing a copy for sure.

Thanks for the recommendation. It sounds good. I’ve requested it from the library.

Christian220, I don't think we need to raise our hands when we worship God, it's just one of the ways we can express ourselves in our love for him.
If we took the Bible as a rule book of what do for every little insignificant thing we'd be playing the tambourine. I think it's important to read the Bible in context. Not all of it is literal. Although, the parts that are reasonably obvious.

I second the 'Heaven' book by Randy Alcorn. I'm working through it at the moment. It'll change your perspectives on Heaven and the best thing about it is it's strictly biblically-based and Alcorn recommends tested his book by seeing how it lines up with God's Word. A heretic doesn't that.
It's interesting to note that many of our understandings of Hell and Heaven have been borrowed more from Plato's teachings (and incorporated into early Christian thinking) than the Bible. Also, more recently, Dante's 'Divine Comedy' probably had a big role in helping to form our ideas of the afterlife.

Lots of responses. lol I'll content myself with this.

Christian220, I don't think we need to raise our hands when we worship God, it's just one of the ways we can express ourselves in our love for him.
If we took the Bible as a rule book of what do for every little insignificant thing we'd be playing the tambourine. I think it's important to read the Bible in context. Not all of it is literal. Although, the parts that are reasonably obvious.

What?!

1. Maybe we don't need to raise our hands and maybe it is an expression of love. But guess what? When I'm worshipping God, I can't help myself! I think about what Jesus did for me on the cross and His rising from the dead and His ascension to heaven and His intercession for me daily and His soon return and my hands shoot up! Do yours?
2. Lifting our hands and raising our arms are acts of submission, since in the Bible power is metaphorically in the hand and arm.
3. If the Bible isn't a rule book, what is it? Btw, I've seen some people bring tambourines to church, especially during revivals. They can't help themselves. It's called the joy of the Lord.
4. Read the Bible in context? Not all of it is literal? Then what isn't? I take it all literally.

@Warrior: here's a new version of "Victory in Jesus." I've been singing this song for 2-3 days now. And here's "Jesus saves" + "Easter song." Think about what Jesus did for you on the cross. Then just see if you can keep your hands and arms down in worship!

@Shadowlander: I agree. The Old T has plenty of mercy, i.e. Genesis 3:21 [and every sacrifice for sin ever since!] and the New T has plenty of judgment, i.e. the Second Coming of Jesus Christ in Revelation. God does not change [Malachi 3]. Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever [Hebrews 13]. Merciful and just! Righteous and holy and gracious!

Okay, the real reason I'm here is to respond to comments in the "April Fool's Day" thread, shut down thanks to me.

probably 99% of members and visitors know that it is tradition to post crazy news stories on April 1 here on the site.

Just because it's tradition doesn't make it right. Lots of man-made traditions need to be evaluated in the light of God's Word. The Bible should stand in judgment over our culture and traditions--not vice-versa. The Bible is and should be our lens on the world. So let's do this with April Fool's Day, as we should do with every holiday.

Well, there are no small children here and if there are, they lied to us to join the forum. Everyone knows what April Fools is about and they come on sites like NarniaWeb to find goofy fake news stories. No one is hurt by it and everyone has a lot of fun with it. I think you're making a huge deal out of something very trivial.

Really? I never said there were small children here. I'm making a point. All over the world on April Fool's Day, people tell false stories to deceive and trick the gullible. You never know what's true and what's false. Do you ever pull pranks on little brothers and sisters? If so, what's their reaction? Some atheists probably consider the gospel of Jesus Christ an April Fool's Day joke. And let's not forget everyone's reaction to Lucy when she first told them about Narnia.

Well at least the topic has revived this thread .

220CT, I think you're over-reacting a bit. Most people are aware of April Fool's Day traditions. Even if they do forget it's April First and get taken in by the jokes. When the joke is revealed most people smack themselves , groan and have a laugh that they could have been taken in by such a silly story.

I remember a very famous April Fool's Day joke. It was an old newsreel from the 50's played throughout the 60's and early 70's that infamously fooled people with the Italian Spaghetti Tree harvest . Sure I remember believing it when I was a kid, but then Mum told me later it was a silly joke. Since then I've always tried to remember to take any story on April 1st with a grain of salt and have fun with it.

This year I remembered early enough to post a bogus story of my own on several forums hoping it would go viral . Unfortunately (or fortunately from your point of view ) no-one really took the bait. But everyone had a good laugh. And that's the whole point.

I agree with you though, that people shouldn't play mean or malicious pranks on each other (like they do on the TV show Punked which I can't stand), but I don't see that telling silly stories and then saying "April Fool's" is particularly mean or "un-Christian". I'm hard-pressed to think of any Biblical references admonishing against telling silly stories just for fun.

GB

1. Maybe we don't need to raise our hands and maybe it is an expression of love. But guess what? When I'm worshipping God, I can't help myself! I think about what Jesus did for me on the cross and His rising from the dead and His ascension to heaven and His intercession for me daily and His soon return and my hands shoot up! Do yours?

Er...no. Emotion is not a bad thing--if you don't feel anything at all for a God that crucified His own Son for your sake, then you have serious problems. But public expression of emotion is not always necessary, and it's not always healthy, either. If you want to raise your hands, fine. But not everyone is wired that way.

3. If the Bible isn't a rule book, what is it? Btw, I've seen some people bring tambourines to church, especially during revivals. They can't help themselves. It's called the joy of the Lord.

It most emphatically not a rule book. It the story of God's dealings with His people; it is the grand tale of the Gospel. If you diminish it to the status of a rule book you lose sight of grace and the finished work of Christ--the whole meaning of the Ressurection!--and you put us back under the Law, under Works.

For the Christian, the Law is only a soul-template--the shape of what we wish to become, what we are becoming, and what me must inevitably become. Not a rule-book. It is the image of Chirst, to which God conforms us daily, and to which we wish to be conformed--for he has transformed our hearts and given us new desires. Please don't degrade the Bible to what has often been called "Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth." That totally misses the point.

public expression of emotion is not always necessary, and it's not always healthy, either. If you want to raise your hands, fine. But not everyone is wired that way.

Hear, hear! I for one am not at all comfortable with lifting my hands, or anything of the sort. If I was forced to do it I'd just feel really really silly and out of place. I don't see any reason why other people shouldn't do it, as long as they want to, I just don't like to. Just because I'm not closing my eyes/shouting amen/raising my hands/dancing or whatever doesn't mean I don't have the same feelings...inside.

Okay, the real reason I'm here is to respond to comments in the "April Fool's Day" thread, shut down thanks to me.

probably 99% of members and visitors know that it is tradition to post crazy news stories on April 1 here on the site.

Just because it's tradition doesn't make it right. Lots of man-made traditions need to be evaluated in the light of God's Word. The Bible should stand in judgment over our culture and traditions--not vice-versa. The Bible is and should be our lens on the world. So let's do this with April Fool's Day, as we should do with every holiday.

First, the thread did not close down because of you. We typically close threads about a specific even within a few days of the date. Shadowlander redirected the discussion here, because it obviously wasn't finished and we didn't want to shut down the conversation too.

I'll agree with you on that we need to evaluate man made traditions through God's word. But you are also overlooking the fact that crazy news stories are almost expected here. And as such, people know in advance to take anything posted on April 1 with a grain of salt until the end of the evening or the next morning. How can it be deception if everyone is "in" on the joke?

If someone is truly bothered by it, they are always welcome to pm us and we will discuss it with them. I used the screen name hobbitkat on April 1, but if I needed to pm someone I owned up to who I was despite playing a role on the public threads. There is a fine line between deception and just having good clean fun and we do our best to walk on the side of the line labeled fun here on April 1.

Our church once got everyone to list what hymns they liked to hear, which was nice. By the way, which hymns does everyone like, in particular? And do you know if they are sung to more than one tune?

I think my taste in hymns must be quite similar to Shadowlander's, because the hymns he mentioned are some of my favorites. As for multiple tunes, there's a radio station in our area that plays a hymn-singing program every Sunday. For some reason they always sing the most obscure hymns possible and half the time they have the same tunes as other songs. It bothers me because I keep getting the words mixed up in my head. Very distracting. That and they sing the hymns in such a bland joyless manner that it's not really pleasant to listen to.

Er...no. Emotion is not a bad thing--if you don't feel anything at all for a God that crucified His own Son for your sake, then you have serious problems. But public expression of emotion is not always necessary, and it's not always healthy, either. If you want to raise your hands, fine. But not everyone is wired that way.

I don't think I've ever raised my hands in public. It's just not something I feel comfortable with. I don't have any issue with other people doing it, but one thing I have noticed is that it can become a status thing. "Oh, look at me! I'm so holy and spiritual and caught up in the Spirit that I just can't keep my hands down." But some people are comfortable doing it and it feels natural to them. Some don't. It's not like the Bible requires it anyway.

All over the world on April Fool's Day, people tell false stories to deceive and trick the gullible. You never know what's true and what's false. Do you ever pull pranks on little brothers and sisters? If so, what's their reaction? Some atheists probably consider the gospel of Jesus Christ an April Fool's Day joke. And let's not forget everyone's reaction to Lucy when she first told them about Narnia.

You post about this as if we're all siting around in the Mod Lair cackling evilly and plotting mean tricks to make people feel awful. If that were the case, no one would come on here on April Fools Day and we wouldn't have so many people who look forward to it. April Fools Day, on NarniaWeb at least, is a day for good-spirited humor and fun. People spend the whole year planning some crazy trick and we all get a good laugh out of it. I fail to see how there can be anything wrong with that.

My little sister is autistic, so I have no idea what her reaction would be to April Fools. I don't follow the connection between that and Lucy. They didn't believe Lucy because she was telling them there was a secret world hidden in a wardrobe that only appeared for her. I rather doubt your reaction to someone telling you that would be instant belief with no doubting.

I don't think I've ever raised my hands in public. It's just not something I feel comfortable with. I don't have any issue with other people doing it, but one thing I have noticed is that it can become a status thing. "Oh, look at me! I'm so holy and spiritual and caught up in the Spirit that I just can't keep my hands down." But some people are comfortable doing it and it feels natural to them. Some don't. It's not like the Bible requires it anyway.

I hope you don't mind me jumping in here! Bookwyrm, I can definitely see where you're coming from. Sometimes raising hands and other "signs of spirituality" can be seen as something that raises a persons status. Quite frankly, that's sad. Church isn't a competition. If saved, we're all Sons of God and Brides of Christ. Why do some feel the need to try and out do the next person? I never got it. I'm one of those people who do raise their hands, but it's not for attention or status. I found that when I'm in worship it comes natural. It's nothing like I have to think about doing it and do it well. It flows. I used to be so scared to raise my hands in service. I always wondered what people would think of me, but as I grew in the Lord I finally said it didn't matter what people thought because it was just me and God. I used to be super uncomfortable, but I realized who I am in Christ and eventually I could do it through Christ.

I don't mind at all, smartypants. Very good points. If church becomes a competition, then people are wasting their time even going because they're obviously not there to worship. It's like those verses in which Jesus chastised the religious leaders for praying on the street corner where everyone could see them.

Unfortunately while you have the ones who try to outdo each other with increasingly exuberant worship, there's also the opposite end of the spectrum where you have people who are so dour and gloomy when it comes to worship that they freak out when people do things like raise their hands. My mom ran into people like that pretty frequently years ago when she was in a church choir group.

Bookwyrm, you bring up a very good point about those who are at the "other end". When I see people like that it really breaks my heart because I know they are missing so much. I'm not saying they have to be jumping around and going crazy, but even just intimate time with Jesus, they're missing. I can see where some stuff might be intimidating to people. However I don't think that is an exscuse to, as you say, sit there and be sour and gloomy. Worship is a time for honoring and loving on the Lord. It shouldn't be seen as a chore or something that's boring.

It is quite an interesting balance to dance in the joy and awe of the Lord and being still and respectful. I see a place for both and neither should be place over the other. One style is not better than the other; they're just different. Personally, I'm the type that likes to dance. I'm not up and wild simply because I also run the powerpoint slide for the worship songs, but usually can't simply stand still during worship. Being in a state of worship makes me bubbly and I have to move because it is exciting to me. But there are also moments, where I do stand still and soak in the presense of the Lord.

This brings in another thing that I am going to be leading my Intervarsity Bible Study tonight in. We are just coming off a huge, successful outreach event, in which we brought Steve Lillis, a professional pool player and trick shot artist, for a couple shows on my campus. He is a Christian and uses his talents on a Billards table to bring out life messages and a Gospel presentation. We had 150 people for the two shows and 47 of them turned in comment cards expressing an interest in knowing more about God or a Bible study. Those are impressive numbers.

Tonight, I am going to be leading a study of Elijah with the showdown and Mt. Carmel, followed by his flight to Mt. Horeb. The main thing I am going to address is are we listening for God in the big moments of our lives, or are we listening for his still small voice? God uses both so neither is better than the other, but we need to listen in both. I used to be a wait for the big event and haven't really had much of a personal quiet time, and I am seeing that this is an area lacking my life, so I am seeking to make a habit of spending some time in the Word before I go to my classes or events. Which are you? The big event, or the quiet listener? Some people do one more than the other, but I am learning to see that you really need both. If you don't listen to that still small voice, how can you learn in the big events. At the same time, if you don't get out for big events, how are you going to put what you hear in the quiet time to practice? Good food for thought.

Random fun stuff:

April Fool's Day

I didn't have time to look through the feedback last time, so can anyone tell us how The Ben Barnes Appreciation Website went over last April Fool's Day?

If saved, we're all Sons of God ...

... including the gals.

... and Brides of Christ.

... including the dudes.

Strange but true.

Church isn't a competition.

I don't know if it would go so far as a Romans 14 matter, but there's no doubt that some quiet people are nervous about exuberant people in church, while some enthusiastic people in church are nervous about silent and still people in church. As long as God has accepted him, that sort of thing.

I forget if it's Saturday Night Live or Mad TV that had dueling church-lady parodies. One had Dana Carvey as a prim character known as The Church Lady. The other had a "Praise-off" skit: various actors dressed as church ladies in their go-to-meeting finery did their praise dances. The winner was "Miss Gone-to-glory," who jumped and shrieked gone to glory! until she spontaneously combusted, leaving only smoke, a few pearls, and feathers. She won the Praise-off, but she could only do it once.

So if there's anything to be concerned about, I'd be more concerned about how we appear to the world we're trying to witness to. Whether it's the noisy dancer or the silent starer, we're called to be Fools for Christ, not Weirdos for Christ.

I think you are right, TOM. After all, I have to listen to my hubby's opinion of the church which in general isn't too flattering, whichever way you cut it. I don't like listening to early morning Grizzlebums, really, seeking to air their thunderously punitive Dursleyish opinions of what is happening in the newspapers, and it upsets me. Faith is not what I really want to be teased about, either. Though I'll admit he has been much nicer about my church attendance during this year.

Just because it's tradition doesn't make it right. Lots of man-made traditions need to be evaluated in the light of God's Word. The Bible should stand in judgment over our culture and traditions--not vice-versa. The Bible is and should be our lens on the world. So let's do this with April Fool's Day, as we should do with every holiday.

It depends on the tradition, and it depends on the April Fools' Day joke. Some are genuinely funny. Didn't Gandalf's Beard mention the BBC Spaghetti tree joke? That sort of thing is harmless, and all good fun. That BBC article was a sensation, even when I was a little girl. And April Fools' day is also a good way to laugh off genuine mistakes. Or a reminder of the need for vigilance in our daily routine. Did I mention that hubby, bless his heart, actually proposed to me on April Fools' Day?

Where April Fools' Day jokes touch on something of genuine worry on other days, or are not well intentioned, yes, I can see your point. But then I can remember playing a horrible April Fools' Day joke on myself through a dream.

And some traditions should not be scrapped. Here in Oz we get Monday off as a public holiday, if a Public Holiday falls on a Sunday. I don't like arguments to get rid of this practice. Anzac Day (25th April) is coming up, and some say we should go back to work regardless on Monday. And yet these same blighters will happily have a Monday off in June over the Queens Birthday long weekend, a far less meaningful holiday than our Anzac Day, which I suspect is only preserved because it is a good excuse to get over your winter sniffles.

The way things are going, we will soon be expected to work seven days a week. Forget about penalty rates, shift allowances, sick leave or Sunday observance. Or all the things instituted which make it so great to live here. I want my traditional holidays, thank you very much. And there are other traditions which should be kept anyway. Think about this one:

Last Sunday we, that is to say, myself and our youngest daughter, turned up -on time for once- and were greeted with the early morning Easter Sunday greeting: Christ is risen. I had almost forgotten I needed to reply: He is risen, indeed. The insert in our usual church pamphlets bore this little tale, concerning that greeting which I will summarise here:

The story is set in the old USSR, where the atheist government was cracking down on religion. They went out of their way to schedule Communist party get togethers for the citoyens, to coincide with the church services the populace had wanted to attend when they could. One such meeting was scheduled for Easter Morning. Armed men were in attendance.

The leader of the meeting asked everyone what they had to say. A stony silence ensued. Then one teenaged boy stood up to proclaim: Christ is risen! The guns answered, mowing down this poor brave lad. But even the guns could not drown out the answering shout from the people attending the meeting: He is risen indeed.

Makes you think, doesn't it? I think we don't really appreciate the freedom we enjoy to believe what we want as Christians.

I think my taste in hymns must be quite similar to Shadowlander's, because the hymns he mentioned are some of my favorites. As for multiple tunes, there's a radio station in our area that plays a hymn-singing program every Sunday. For some reason they always sing the most obscure hymns possible and half the time they have the same tunes as other songs. It bothers me because I keep getting the words mixed up in my head. Very distracting. That and they sing the hymns in such a bland joyless manner that it's not really pleasant to listen to.

I know what you mean. We had a similar program here on Sunday evenings called Community worship which my grandma used to listen to. In those days the Book of Common Praise used to have the names of the tunes up there with other info about the hymn we were singing, such as who wrote them, and when. We had tunes like Silesia, Muscovy and who knows what else.

And I agree that I prefer hymns which tend to stick exclusively to their original tunes. Ones like 'Be thou my vision', an old Irish hymn, apparently. Or that Russian hymn, 'Oh Lord my God, when I in awesome wonder'. Or St Francis of Assisi's hymn: All creatures of our God and King. Not to mention, All glory laud and honour, based on St Theodulph of Orleans' hymn of 820 AD, which is usually only sung on Palm Sunday. Other hymns I love include William Blake's Jerusalem, and O worship the king.