Frankly I don't see what you are complaining about, even though I agree that most hymns cross denominational lines. For instance, one of the most famous hymns I ever heard or sang (Onward Christian Soldiers) was written by a particularly dotty Anglican vicar called Sabine Baring-Gould, whose interests in werewolves and other British folklore wouldn't have gone down too well with the likes of Laura Mallory . It is a real treat to hear a Salvation Army band playing it, or to sing along with the Seventh Day Adventists, other hymns familiar to Anglican parishioners.

And then there is a plethora of other hymns, not all of them sung on Billy Graham Crusades. A whole heap were written by Charles Wesley, whose brother John, founded the Methodist church, not to mention the somewhat similar Congregational Church. Isaac Watts was a 1700's hymn writer, whilst other hymns are based on traditional and quite ancient hymn singing. Whether or not it is true that the original hymn dates from St Theodolphus or Francis of Assisi, I rather like the idea of hymns which connect me to Christianity through the ages.

And I don't believe for one moment that there are six or seven hymns in a service, or an Anglican service, at any rate, unless it is advertised as a choral service. Which in my church is unlikely to happen outside a funeral, marriage, passing musical artist, or Good Friday. What we do have in the church I attend, is plentiful books in the slots behind the church pews, so that the congregation can follow the service easily. The Bibles we use are all the same version, in a nice largeish print, and those who need it can get real large print versions as well, from the vestry. These books also include hymnals as well as copies of the standard 'An Australian prayer book' and the number of the hymns to be sung are displayed prominently on a board on one side of the altar.

I think my church must be alone in this provision of resources to follow the service. Even when we enter church we are given leaflets, which show which order of service is to be used, including the page number in the prayer book. (Ours is the Australian equivalent to the Book of Common Prayer, originally written by Thomas Cranmer et all, before they were burned at the stake by Mary Tudor). The collect is there plus the Bible readings, plus the page numbers, repeated by each reader during the church service.

Usually there are only three hymns to be sung. One at the beginning, which allows latecomers to sidle into the church without disrupting anything. A second hymn takes care of the offertory being passed around, whilst the third, which concludes the service, wakes up the sleepers and sends us all on our way. The remaining music usually is part of the liturgy, in particular psalms like Nunc Dimittis, Magnificat or Jubilate, or more likely, the Gloria (Glory to God in the Highest), which is usually sung except when the organist is absent.

The early morning service I like to attend usually is Holy Communion, and also includes recitals of the General Confession, the Ten Commandments, or the summary Jesus provided, the Nicene Creed plus two Bible readings - and we have to stand for any read from the Gospels. We also include prayers for the Queen and those in Government, that they might govern wisely, and then we pray for those around the world who are persecuted, in sickness and in want, plus those of our community and parish who need special consideration.

The leaflet I get at the Church door also contains an outline of the sermon to come, and the day's Bible readings, which always relate to the sermon. And preachers, who give the sermon, feel quite free to bring along any props they think will demonstrate their point, such as torches, working or not, or largeish salt containers. If for some reason the Order of Service is different from those already part of the provided prayer books, then a copy of what is happening is distributed to worshippers as they enter the church.

I don't know why all this isn't standard practice everywhere. After all, most people who attend church can read and write, and can think critically. When recently I attended a memorial mass for a workmate, I was quite bemused by responses which were sung not said, by music which seemed familiar but wasn't, by liturgy that was at once familiar and strange, and by the lack of any sort of direction, such as by a printed guide to the service to those unfamiliar with Catholic or any other sort of Christian procedure.

For instance, one of the most famous hymns I ever heard or sang (Onward Christian Soldiers) was written by a particularly dotty Anglican vicar called Sabine Baring-Gould, whose interests in werewolves and other British folklore wouldn't have gone down too well with the likes of Laura Mallory .

Hey, my favorite hymn! A somewhat close second would be A Mighty Fortress, but OCS has always been at the top even since my childhood. They don't play it often at my church though...I wonder if the music director takes requests...

And I don't believe for one moment that there are six or seven hymns in a service, or an Anglican service, at any rate, unless it is advertised as a choral service.

There would be if FFJ's service ran as long as he said (2 1/2 hours! ). Most churches Stateside tend to hold to a fairly typical one hour service though, with 3-4 songs sung by the congregation, and usually a musical number crooned out by a congregation member or a group of them at the front of the church. This is a largely homogenous setup that exists in most churches here regardless of denomination, and the Anglican churches (here they're called Episcopals) are no different in this regard. The Catholic masses I've attended tend to be much more formal but still follow the same very basic procedure, the only major difference being the replacement of the keynote singer portion with creed recitation, like what you describe. This past Sunday, however, the gentleman who was scheduled to do the singing was out sick and so the music director had us sing a 5th hymn to fill in the time gap. Which is what got me to thinking about the subject at hand and led me to post my original message.

What we do have in the church I attend, is plentiful books in the slots behind the church pews, so that the congregation can follow the service easily. The Bibles we use are all the same version, in a nice largeish print, and those who need it can get real large print versions as well, from the vestry. These books also include hymnals as well as copies of the standard 'An Australian prayer book' and the number of the hymns to be sung are displayed prominently on a board on one side of the altar.

The churches here all have these items too, although if we had an "American prayer book" there are certain folks in this country who would feign offense and do their best to make such a thing go away, under the probable excuse that "prayer isn't just for Americans". Another topic for another day. Suffice it to say that every church I've ever been too hands a program out at the front door to parishioners coming in and that this program contains the information you list, including songs to be sung with corresponding page numbers in the hymnal, the title and subject of the sermon, who is doing the public singing at the front of the church, what they're singing, etc. etc. etc. Most of them typically have a nice picture on the front which changes on a weekly basis (usually flowers or landscapes...Easter programs are the prettiest, in my opinion) and a long list of announcements on the back page.

The leaflet I get at the Church door also contains an outline of the sermon to come, and the day's Bible readings, which always relate to the sermon. And preachers, who give the sermon, feel quite free to bring along any props they think will demonstrate their point, such as torches, working or not, or largeish salt containers.

For a second I did a double-take on this segment of your post and thought, "a lit torch? Uh...fire hazard?!" before I realized that's what you folks call flashlights. No harm in a flashlight/torch. Sometimes pastors here will do that as well (bring in props or teaching aids...FFJ brings a foil!) to help illustrate and bring out the theme of the sermon.

Actually, I use an epee. They are bigger weapons and easier for an audience to see at a relative distance. They also don't break as easily. Plus they were derived from the original dueling sword so it has the history behind it. Fencing is something that is difficult to describe without having the gear there to illustrate. I use the gear to represent the Armor of God. The only issue is that fencers don't wear belts or carry shields, so there is do direct representation to the Belt of Truth or the Shield of Faith. The other four pieces, (Feet of the Gospel of Peace, Breastplate of Righteousness, Helmet of Salvation, and Sword of the Spirit) are pretty straight forward.

So to represent the Belt and the Shield, I use the velcro/straps/zippers and the epee's bell guard. A Roman soldier's belt kept his tunic from flapping around in battle, and a fencer's zippers and velcro on his/her jacket do the same. The bell guard demonstrates faith. Because in epee, the target is the entire body, including hand, head, and toe, the weapon hand is the closest thing to your opponent. So to protect it you have to position your arm so you have a straight line from your elbow to the point of the blade. This puts your entire forearm behind the epee guard. Faith requires an object. You can believe that the bell guard will protect your hand and arm, but only until you put it inside the guard and go into the match are you actually demonstrating faith in the guard. That's just a small piece of what I have on my message.

So back to the topic on hand, my church usually does 5-6 songs and then goes into announcements and the sermon. The singing usually lasts 30-45 minutes depending on how things go. My pastor, who is also the worship leader, has an incedible gift of sensibility of the Holy Spirit. There have been many times where he plans a service in one direction and totally ends up on a tangent depending on what the Holy Spirit says. He says he knows where he is going to start, but has no idea where he is going to end. Some services have just ended up being a time of praise, worship and prayer, because that is just what the congregation needed that Sunday. Other times, he starts preaching on his sermon and ends up on something totally different because that's what needed to be said.

But in terms of the worship, even though we have a target time, we don't worship as routine. I can say this because sometimes it changes on us. I have run the Powerpoint slides for the last 3+ years and sometimes there are songs we skip, sometimes songs we repeat, other times we do songs that are not on the slides. So while the sermons need to be rich and authentic, so does the singing part of the worship. That is one thing I've noticed in my church that unfortunately I haven't seen too often, even in churches I have visited.

I will also often watch sermons on TV, like Charles Stanley, Adrian Rogers, and David Jeremiah. They will show the singing part of the worship, and sometimes I can see in the faces of the choir and congregation, ones that are worshiping and ones that are only doing it by rote. I'm not talking about the difference between those that want to dance and those that want to be still and solemn in the presence of God. But I can see their heart at times. It pains me to see that in these megachurches with an excellent sermon. I've picked up a lot from these preachers but if you are partaking in worship or the sermon by rote and the heart is not there, you won't pick up anything. By experience, if I don't take part in one part of the service, I won't be able to pick up what I want from the rest. I used to not like the singing part of the worship, and to be honest, I didn't pick much up from the sermon as a result. But after Urbana 06, I learned to not just partake in the worship, but to truly enjoy it. And because of that, when the sermon comes, my heart is prepared to learn from the sermon.

But to add to all that, something my home church did (the 2 1/2 hour one that I grew up in) was something you might like, shadowlander. They felt the same kind of thing so they switched the sermon and the worship order. This was to give the speaker (this church didn't have a specified pastor) the time he needed to speak. The worship part then filled in the remaining time. This can work, but it's not for everyone. What do you think about that format?

The older girls used to fence with foils at the school I first attended. But the boys seemed more interested in the other sort of fencing. The longest fence in the world is the Rabbit Proof Fence, stretching from Port Hedland in the north of Western Australia, straight down to Esperance on the Great Australian Bight.

For a second I did a double-take on this segment of your post and thought, "a lit torch? Uh...fire hazard?!" before I realized that's what you folks call flashlights. No harm in a flashlight/torch.

I thought you had read Prince Caspian, too, seen the film, bought the T shirt etc. Remember the torch Edmund left in Narnia? Along with the other Christmas presents?

The churches here all have these items too, although if we had an "American prayer book" there are certain folks in this country who would feign offense and do their best to make such a thing go away, under the probable excuse that "prayer isn't just for Americans".

Wouldn't those sorts of people complain more if they still had to use the old "Book of Common Prayer", compiled in the sixteenth century, in the sort of English used by William Shakespeare? Ever since the Catholics abandoned the Latin Mass to conduct their services in English, the Anglicans here have updated their prayer books to the Standard English that post 1788 Australians can understand. If the Americans insist on a different version, it would only be to accommodate the different accents and spelling.

I think that 2 1/2 hours is a bit much for a service, unless it is the only one of the day, which sometimes happens, such as for Good Friday or the Church's anniversary. If you go for too long in a service, doesn't it affect the time the next service starts? What about Sunday School, Family Service? Evening Service? Confirmation Classes etc? Catholics often have several sessions to attend Mass all day Sunday, don't they?

"I -- have come BACK -- to LIFE!"

I've wanted to say that for a while. Just a quick note here in one of my favorite threads to say: please pardon my absence. It's been due to a lot of writing in other areas, and perhaps some winter sluggishness along with that. Now I've caught up to the discussion, and I'm enjoying it a lot.

Shadowlander, you're a hoot as usual. How could I not post in reply? In some environments it's just hard to worship God for real. Please be encouraged, though, that at least the church isn't singing this:

Je-susss -- is better thannn -- football
Je-susss -- is better thannn -- the Super Bowl.
He's better than the Saints
He's better than the Colts.
He's my Savior.

I swear this is an actual song. I have now heard a recording of it played, with guitar accompaniment, on Wretched Radio. And yes, Fencer, in case you missed it, you may be assured that Todd Friel lambasted it fair and square. It's more pathetic than even those gooey worship songs he often wrongfully and unilaterally condemns for not being deep enough.

However, in contrast, Friel then played a Sovereign Grace song that nearly brought tears to my eyes. It was about dying being a gateway to the eternal life Christ has secured for His people. Now, most Sovereign Grace artists, and church attenders, are young adults (from what I can tell), and nowhere near needing to prepare for death (of old age, anyway). So that makes this even more amazing. But also, many SG songs can be very "generic," about the Cross and things like that. I have wanted to see more specific songs about specific truths from them, especially about eternal life, the New Earth, etc. Now they've done one!

And then there was a revelation to me ... it turns out theologian and author D.A. Carson has been complaining that not enough theologians and authors have been writing new hymns. Then it turned out he actually had. The radio program played one. And ... wow ...

Before there was a universe,
Before a star or planet,
When time had still not yet begun –
I scarcely understand it –
Th’ eternal Word was with his God,
God’s very Self-Expression;
Th’ eternal Word was God himself –
And God had planned redemption.

He actually used the word "planet" in a hymn! And even rhymed it!

In another hymn, which I've very sure was read on the radio, though not played, Carson talked about God creating galaxies. Ah yes, this lover of epic sci-fi stories with God-honoring themes and the truth that His creation is enormous is very pleased. I long to sing this in church.

Anyway ... Shadowlander, I can empathize with not wanting to sing, especially if the songs are kind of lame or there doesn't seem to be enough heart in the congregation -- or perhaps, they seem to be "ginning up" their enthusiasm. I'm reminded, though, of Screwtape's advice to Wormwood, to keep "the patient" focused on all the lameness of a church service, including the incomprehensible words in the liturgy book and the shabby songs, mostly bad ... and so on. Is the church otherwise good? I hope the Word is taught there. Say more, eh wot?

And Gladius, that is one of the more outrageous altar calls I've heard about. Pure legalism on display there. Where is the grace in such a handling of the practice? I don't believe altar calls are evil, but the way they started was questionable as best: Charles Finney, in the 1800s, trying to gin up revival starting with humans, whom he assumed were not afflicted with sin nature but morally neutral. (And the Spirit? Who's that?)

Finally, a question: I've recently begun a miniseries about the notion that God in the Old Testament was supreme and mean, and all about the Law. But when Jesus came to Earth, He was just so niiice to people, and He accepted them all and "loved" everyone nonstop, He didn't bother with any of that Law stuff. That's why He fought Pharisees.

But is that only half-true? And have you heard or believed that myth in the past? I know I have incidentally thought it was the case.

Thoughts welcome! And especially, what Scriptures relate to the issue?

I haven't been able to watch Wretched for a while because 4 days a week, I have class during that time. I will say that while most of what Todd Friel has to say is pretty solid, there are a few times where he is off. He once ranted on a e-mail forward that both he and I got. It was about the mathmatical center of the Bible. The chapter between the longest and shortest chapters in the Bible is Psalm 118. There are 1188 chapters in the Bible. Psalm 118 is the halfway mark. Add all the verses together and the middle of that is Psalm 118:8. Friel went on a rant about there is no mathmatical way to 'solve' the Bible, but I really don't see that as the point of that e-mail. I see it as an observation that when Chapters and Verses were inserted in the KJV (I think) for the first time, God still orchestrated it. He never did say what the verse said: "It is better to trust in the Lord than in the ways of men."

As for worship, it truly is a congregational issue. Does the worship leader lead in worship or just singing a few songs? Sometimes the worship leader treats it as a job not as a privilege. And it's sad when that happens. As for the calls to stand or sit, my pastor tends to have some interesting timing for that. From time to time, he'll have the congregation sit for a song, allowing them to stand back up at thier choice, but he tends to do that on a song in which the congregation will want to stand right back up once the chorus hits. There isn't anything wrong with that, it's just an observation. I think the idea for having the congregation sit is so they don't have to stand for the full 45-minute worship part. For some people, I understand that, but for others, I don't. I will say it is harder to worship and sing sitting down than it is standing up (or in some cases on your knees). But I see another prespectice for the call to sit down. Sometimes my pastor just wants the congregation to just listen to the song. I have a good friend that never sings during the worship service. He just stands there and listens to the words of the song. It's not that he isn't participating, but it's just his way to worship during that time. But there needs to be in an environment where the singing is truly worship and not just singing or time filler.

Alter calls: So tricky to not have thing be just an emotional response. So often you have have a spiritual/religious experience and not have it be a real touch by God. So many speakers do play on that emotional hype generated by the worship or the sermon and while some of the response it truly legit, some of it is hype, and some of it is something else. But my pastor once spoke about a person (I think a she) who would go to the alter call every single week. She would go not merely in response to the sermon, but to hear from God. Obviously he didn't speak each time, but she went so she would be there when he did. Does God only speak to someone at the alter call? No. Can he speak to you just sitting in your seat? Yes, and he has with me on an issue completely unrelated to the sermon. But there is something about stepping forward in faith that just sitting in your seat doesn't do. It's something to think about.

And as for the OT God vs NT God. I get this often. The biggest issue here is the book of Joshua where God orders the conquest of Cannan in comparison to a misunderstanding about Jesus being just about love. One of the biggest misunderstandings is that while God is Love, Love is not God. God is also a God of Justice and he will deal with sin at his timing. Sodom and Gomorrah got thier justice in Genesis 19 for heinous lifestyles. Ananias and Sapphira got thier justice in Acts 5, for lying. And throughout modern history, you can see untimely deaths of those who blatantly reject God. Yes, Jesus said love your enemies. The reason is that the real enemy is not one of flesh and blood. People who attack us, don't attack us for personal reasons. They attack us because they are blind and simply don't know any better. If you look at the full picture, you will see that God is consistent from the OT through the NT to today. God was not just a vengeful God in the OT. Every time his justice was excecute, a chance at redemption and love was always there (ie Nineveh in Jonah). But when people sinned, God makes it clear that he will not be mocked. That is what Paul addressed in Galatians. We will reap what we sow. Gotta run to class.

But to add to all that, something my home church did (the 2 1/2 hour one that I grew up in) was something you might like, shadowlander. They felt the same kind of thing so they switched the sermon and the worship order. This was to give the speaker (this church didn't have a specified pastor) the time he needed to speak. The worship part then filled in the remaining time. This can work, but it's not for everyone. What do you think about that format?

I rather like the setup for that, but I also know that the pastor would have to be on their toes the whole time. They'd have to be a gifted speaker and keep the congregation's attention locked on the subject at hand. When you start looking at 2 hour + services one may initially give a little shiver because we've all experienced a dull service and one that long might seem more like torture. But if the pastor is really good and the message well presented I wouldn't mind one that stretched on that long. Coinkadinkally I believe that when most folks think of Heaven they tend to associate it with those long, boring services, which is a shame because it will be nothing at all like that. There's an unfortunate belief nowadays that to strive to be holy means to be boring overall, and so Heaven must be boring too. It's very unfortunate. Another topic for another time.

Shadowlander, you're a hoot as usual. How could I not post in reply? In some environments it's just hard to worship God for real.

I am forever looking to improve upon my hootage (pronounced like homage) and expand hootiness to all corners of my dominion. Seriously though, I sometimes feel bad for not being moved by the singing portion of the service. I know others are (including a large number of NWeb members) and seem to really enjoy it. But I just get this "ho-hum" feeling about it when it occurs, rather than the excitement of getting to learn something in the sermon. Given that so many people's tastes are so different I'm beginning to think that the traditional Sunday service we see on a weekly basis is the result of trying to appeal to everyone, with a sort of scattershot approach; hymns for singing fans, sermon for message fans, etc. Maybe that's for the best...but I'd still rather go in there for the sermon, especially if it's led by a capable pastor. The football "hymn" you transcribed the lyrics for is...horrid. An unholy fusion of football and poorly written religious "zeal"...I thought I'd seen it all.

Anyway ... Shadowlander, I can empathize with not wanting to sing, especially if the songs are kind of lame or there doesn't seem to be enough heart in the congregation -- or perhaps, they seem to be "ginning up" their enthusiasm. I'm reminded, though, of Screwtape's advice to Wormwood, to keep "the patient" focused on all the lameness of a church service, including the incomprehensible words in the liturgy book and the shabby songs, mostly bad ... and so on. Is the church otherwise good? I hope the Word is taught there. Say more, eh wot?

Oh, it's a nice place. The church itself is largish and well equipped to handle large groups. I tend to go to the early 8:30am service since I work 3rd shift and would pass out cold by the time the 11am service started, and would likely remain blissfully dormant even if a volcano erupted from the pulpit and the UCLA marching band were blasting out "Louie Louie" while hustling in formation down the aisles gathering the collection. So it's just me and some seasoned citizens, who are very nice, but seem to have expended most of their energy 20+ years ago. So all of us sort of sing the hymns at a low volume (given this it's almost comical how the music director is up at the front "conducting" us...does anyone else get a little kick out of that? ) and listen to the message. The pastor's a really nice guy and I like him and he's a good speaker. I just wish the sermons were a tad bit longer, but then that brings us back to square one again, right?

I guess I wouldn't mind the singing as much if they sang better hymns...some of the more obscure ones have the strangest melodies and cadences and are impossible to keep track of. You think the melody is going one way and instead it goes entirely another, and as a result the whole audience sounds like a disjointed gathering of teenage boys going through puberty trying to sing acapella as everyone struggles to figure out what the song is doing. It's...bizarre.

Sorry to enter the discussion so late. But I'm trying to be on NW only twice a week [exceptions: prayer updates, messaging]. ... Shadowlander , I'll try not to raise my pitchfork at you!

I'm there to get guidance, to hear a message. The songs themselves are messages of sorts, but the pastor could easily pass along the same message in a fraction of the time simply by saying what needs to be said. ... Singing isn't the only way to worship God...isn't really delving deep into Scripture alongside of other believers just as important?

Just like listening to a sermon, just like prayer, just like doing work as unto the Lord, singing is worship. ... Some people get as much doctrine and teaching out of a song as they do a sermon. Singing is just one vessel we have to get our hearts and mind ready to listen to God. Is it required? No. Do you have to sing in order to hear from God? No. But there is something about the singing that has an effect that no other means of worship has. It has its role and I don't think we should just do one song and go straight to the sermon just because of concerns of it just being an emotional hype.

Agreed, Fencer! Yes, Shadowlander, songs contain messages. But when we worship God, the focus should be on God, not us. Singing is pleasing to God. That's why we do it. To praise and please Him. If we look to singing to benefit us, then we've missed the point. We can and should sing songs of praise to edify ourselves. But its most important function is to praise God. The Lord's prayer begins with adoration. So we should start prayer by looking up to God. It's the same with worship. We should begin by looking up to God--in praise [songs, etc]. Once we've done that, then God will speak to us [through His Word].

Obviously we need a balance between music and preaching. My church [TRBC] sings 4-5 songs [all of which I love and none of which tire me], which takes maybe 20 minutes. Then prayer, offering, one choir song, and a message from the Word [maybe 20-30 minutes]. Shadowlander, I agree with Fencer and Aslan that the kind of message you describe and/or want is more appropriate for a mid-week Bible class, not a Sunday sermon. Good preaching doesn't need details. It just needs to get the point across. I prefer short, powerful preaching that gets a point across and sticks with me and feeds me.

My pastor, who is also the worship leader, has an incedible gift of sensibility of the Holy Spirit. There have been many times where he plans a service in one direction and totally ends up on a tangent depending on what the Holy Spirit says. He says he knows where he is going to start, but has no idea where he is going to end. Some services have just ended up being a time of praise, worship and prayer, because that is just what the congregation needed that Sunday. Other times, he starts preaching on his sermon and ends up on something totally different because that's what needed to be said. ... I learned to not just partake in the worship, but to truly enjoy it. And because of that, when the sermon comes, my heart is prepared to learn from the sermon.

I'm glad your pastor has that sensitivity to the Spirit. My pastor in Virginia does, but not the one in Tennessee. And I totally understand your last statement. I get more out of the sermon when I praise God in song. And I agree with you that singing should be worship, not a time filler.

@wagga: thanks for the short history lesson on hymns! "I rather like the idea of hymns which connect me to Christianity through the ages." ... So do I.

Likewise, when reading about the early churches in the Epistles one can find plenty on church organization but I don't remember anything specifically listing singing as being required in a worship service, and so I have to posit that this might be more tradition than Scriptural.

I think that singing dates back to the Psalms. I do agree that singing in not required or dictated by Scripture, but rather a means of doing what can be done through sermon or Testimony. What singing does is put the Scripture to a rhythmic format that makes it easy to remember. That's what inspired the hymnists. Providing a means to remember Scripture easily.

I think we need an education on singing in the Bible! The first song recorded in the Bible is in Exodus, chapter 15 to be exact, not the Psalms. And guess what? It is dictated by Scripture! "Sing to God" / "sing to the Lord" are commands. They appear repeatedly in the Bible, and not just the Psalms.

Shadowlander: I agree that singing may not be the only way to worship God, but it's the most prominent way in the Bible, i.e. in an actual worship service communing with other believers. This holds for both the Old Testament and the New. Part of the problem is that I think you misunderstand the nature and purpose of singing. Did you know singing [music in general] has at least 20 biblical purposes? Check out this website: Music's facets in Scripture's light: Scriptural ways of using music [site has 4 parts/links].

1. Worship directed solely to God
2. To express a prayer
3. To declare God's greatness to fellow humans
4. As an aid to the worship of others
5. An important aspect of spiritual warfare
6. An act of obedience to God
7. To deliver a prophetic utterance
8. To increase one's receptivity to the Holy Spirit
9. To edify yourself
10. To edify others
11. To share a testimony
12. An important aid to memory
13. To teach
14. To challenge and inspire others to action or commitment
15. To express pent-up feelings
16. To accompany physical movements: expressions, dancing
17. Special occasions
18. To accompany animal sacrifice
19. Ushering in new eras
20. Extemporaneous songs

The word “sing” appears 119 times in the Bible, “singing” 29 times, “sang/sung” 17 times, and “song” 78 times … mostly in the Psalms. “Praise/s” [noun and verb] occurs 277 times and “worship” [noun and verb] 108 times. “Psalm/s” occurs 97 times and “hymn/s” 4 times. I see a pattern here. Don’t you?

God sings … shouldn’t we?
Job 35:10: But none saith, Where [is] God my maker, who giveth songs in the night;
Psalm 42:8: [Yet] the LORD will command his lovingkindness in the daytime, and in the night his song [shall be] with me, [and] my prayer unto the God of my life.
Psalm 137:4: How shall we sing the LORD'S song in a strange land?
Zephaniah 3:17: The LORD thy God in the midst of thee [is] mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing.

Do you know what it is for God to give you a song in the night? This past Sunday evening, I heard a sermon on Christ as our refuge. Early the next morning, God gave me “You are my refuge” [lyrics below]. I hadn’t heard it in 10 years.

I found a place, I can call my own, here in your embrace, where your mercy overflows, it's here that all my doubts and fears just melt away, I lay my burdens down and I look upon your face.

You are my refuge, you are my sanctuary, when I feel afraid, you're my hiding place, you are my refuge and when the storm is raging, underneath your wings, I rejoice and sing, for you are my refuge.

He who dwells in the secret place of the most high God, shall abide underneath the shadow, the shadow of your wings.

Nature/creation sings … shouldn’t we?
1 Chron 16:33: Then shall the trees of the wood sing out at the presence of the LORD, because he cometh to judge the earth.
Job 38:7: When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Psalm 65:13: The pastures are clothed with flocks; the valleys also are covered over with corn; they shout for joy, they also sing.
Psalm 66:4: All the earth shall worship thee, and shall sing unto thee; they shall sing [to] thy name. Selah. [Earth: land or people?]
Psalm 104:12: By them shall the fowls of the heaven have their habitation, [which] sing among the branches.
Isaiah 44:23: Sing, O ye heavens; for the LORD hath done [it]: shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel.
Isaiah 49:13: Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains: for the LORD hath comforted his people, and will have mercy upon his afflicted.
Isaiah 52:9: Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the LORD hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem.
Isaiah 55:12: For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap [their] hands.

Praising God with the heart and lips is a commandment [too numerous to list] but one we should delight in. Praising God [esp. in song] is one hallmark of a Christian [and of repentant backsliders].
Psalm 115:17-18: The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. But we will bless the LORD from this time forth and for evermore. Praise the LORD.
Isaiah 35:6: Then shall the lame [man] leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.
Hosea 2:15: And I will give her her vineyards from thence, and the valley of Achor for a door of hope: and she shall sing there, as in the days of her youth, and as in the day when she came up out of the land of Egypt.
1 Peter 2:5, 9: Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. … But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

When we enter God’s presence, we should begin with praise, singing, worship, adoration, thanksgiving. Praise invites the presence of God.
Psalm 22:3: But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
Psalm 100:2, 4: Serve the LORD with gladness: come before his presence with singing. … Enter into his gates with thanksgiving, [and] into his courts with praise: be thankful unto him, [and] bless his name. [I'm sure there's more...]

When we praise God, we should lift up our hands to Him.
Psalm 134:1-2: Behold, bless ye the LORD, all [ye] servants of the LORD, which by night stand in the house of the LORD. Lift up your hands [in] the sanctuary, and bless the LORD.
1 Timothy 2:8: I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

Praise brings deliverance. The tribe of Judah always went first in battle [Num 2:9, 10:14, Judges 20:18]. Why? Judah means “praise God.”
2 Chron 20:21-22: And when he had consulted with the people, he appointed singers unto the LORD, and that should praise the beauty of holiness, as they went out before the army, and to say, Praise the LORD; for his mercy [endureth] for ever. And when they began to sing and to praise, the LORD set ambushments against the children of Ammon, Moab, and mount Seir, which were come against Judah; and they were smitten.
Psalm 32:7: Thou [art] my hiding place; thou shalt preserve me from trouble; thou shalt compass me about with songs of deliverance. Selah.
Acts 16:25-26: And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them. And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken: and immediately all the doors were opened, and every one's bands were loosed.

Singing in the Old Testament tabernacle/temple
1 Chron 6:31-32: And these [are they] whom David set over the service of song in the house of the LORD, after that the ark had rest. And they ministered before the dwelling place of the tabernacle of the congregation with singing, until Solomon had built the house of the LORD in Jerusalem: and [then] they waited on their office according to their order.
1 Chron 15:22, 27-28: And Chenaniah, chief of the Levites, [was] for song: he instructed about the song, because he [was] skilful. … And David [was] clothed with a robe of fine linen, and all the Levites that bare the ark, and the singers, and Chenaniah the master of the song with the singers: David also [had] upon him an ephod of linen. Thus all Israel brought up the ark of the covenant of the LORD with shouting, and with sound of the cornet, and with trumpets, and with cymbals, making a noise with psalteries and harps.
1 Chron 25:1, 3, 6-7: Moreover David and the captains of the host separated to the service of the sons of Asaph, and of Heman, and of Jeduthun, who should prophesy with harps, with psalteries, and with cymbals: and the number of the workmen according to their service was: … Of Jeduthun: the sons of Jeduthun; Gedaliah, and Zeri, and Jeshaiah, Hashabiah, and Mattithiah, six, under the hands of their father Jeduthun, who prophesied with a harp, to give thanks and to praise the LORD. … All these [were] under the hands of their father for song [in] the house of the LORD, with cymbals, psalteries, and harps, for the service of the house of God, according to the king's order to Asaph, Jeduthun, and Heman. So the number of them, with their brethren that were instructed in the songs of the LORD, [even] all that were cunning, was two hundred fourscore and eight.
2 Chron 23:18: Also Jehoiada appointed the offices of the house of the LORD by the hand of the priests the Levites, whom David had distributed in the house of the LORD, to offer the burnt offerings of the LORD, as [it is] written in the law of Moses, with rejoicing and with singing, [as it was ordained] by David.
2 Chron 29:25-30: And he set the Levites in the house of the LORD with cymbals, with psalteries, and with harps, according to the commandment of David, and of Gad the king's seer, and Nathan the prophet: for [so was] the commandment of the LORD by his prophets. And the Levites stood with the instruments of David, and the priests with the trumpets. And Hezekiah commanded to offer the burnt offering upon the altar. And when the burnt offering began, the song of the LORD began [also] with the trumpets, and with the instruments [ordained] by David king of Israel. And all the congregation worshipped, and the singers sang, and the trumpeters sounded: [and] all [this continued] until the burnt offering was finished. … Moreover Hezekiah the king and the princes commanded the Levites to sing praise unto the LORD with the words of David, and of Asaph the seer. And they sang praises with gladness, and they bowed their heads and worshipped.
2 Chron 30:21: And the children of Israel that were present at Jerusalem kept the feast of unleavened bread seven days with great gladness: and the Levites and the priests praised the LORD day by day, [singing] with loud instruments unto the LORD.
Nehemiah 12:46: For in the days of David and Asaph of old [there were] chief of the singers, and songs of praise and thanksgiving unto God.

Singing in the New Testament [church, etc]
Matthew 26:30: And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives. [also Mark 14]
1 Cor 14:15: What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
Ephesians 5:18-20: And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Colossians 3:16: Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
James 5:13: Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.

Singing in heaven
Rev 5:8-10: And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Rev 14:2-3: And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Revelation 15:2-4: And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, [and] over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous [are] thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true [are] thy ways, thou King of saints. Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for [thou] only [art] holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

FINALE...
Shadowlander [and everyone else], click here to watch a video of a Sunday morning service [Feb 14] at TRBC. Sermon series: "The Father Knows Best." Sermon topic: "What love is." So ... your thoughts?

On the subject of "things that don't speak to you/me/us in the worship service," which wrong notion of Heaven did you grow up with?

--The never-ending Sermon

--The never-ending altar call

--The never-ending praise-song-that-you-really-really-don't-like-but-the-music-director-loves-it

--The never-ending testimony night

--Other

This isn't unique to Christianity, BTW. One of the most famous "Heaven and Hell are actually the same place" concepts comes from Jewish tradition. Apparently the dead hang out with God and discuss Torah all day, which is Paradise for the righteous and torment for everyone else.

--Other

I'm Australian, descended from convicts, among the most sinful and abandoned wretches of the early 1800's, and by definition might not be suitable material for heaven. If it as boring as what people make out, with unsuitable songs and neverending preaching about my shortcomings, I might start thinking the Other Place might be more fun. But having been clinically dead for a few seconds in my life, some 20 years ago, I'm not worried what happens hereafter. That is if I can still remember what I am here after.

I rather like the setup for that, but I also know that the pastor would have to be on their toes the whole time. They'd have to be a gifted speaker and keep the congregation's attention locked on the subject at hand.

Quite so. I don't know what other denominations do to appoint pastors. A guest at our church gave us an insight when he told us about life, and the various habits and ideas about women, wine and song, of each denomination, at Moore Theological College, the part of Sydney University where they train ministers of many denominations. It seems that all of them need to study Theology degrees there, and year by year we have been getting a steady stream of student ministers on work experience, to give them an idea of what sort of work is involved in running a parish. In addition to the regular minister, we also get others who are prominent speakers elsewhere, visiting preachers, the leaders of various groups within the church and in particular the junior minister.

The minister also gives us a good idea from casual comments made when delivering church notices, through the sermon, through prayers and elsewhere of what sort of work pastors have to do. It isn't just working on Sundays; there are groups and activities through the week. People die at any time, and if they are part of the congregation, the minister by rights should be there for them. There are various people in poor health and maybe in palliative care that need his visits through the week. Ministry might include Scripture classes for the various public schools in the district, plus visits to prisons and other correctional facilities. Not to mention taking part in church maintenance and in those various groups I mention which keep the parish going.

Some services can't be performed without the regular minister. The junior minister, for example, can conduct a service, but needs to be ordained or qualified to lead a Holy Communion service. For legal reasons, such a minister has to be also licensed to conduct weddings and funerals, and to register weddings at any rate. According to State law, death certificates plus birth certificates are registered through the relevant hospital. You see, with a State or National registry, baptisms no longer have quite the same legal force they once did, though a funeral notice still matters a great deal. I don't know how other denominations get around such legal niceties when they are run by Elders rather than by Ordained preachers.

Whilst being a minister looks easy on the surface, some bits I wouldn't envy the Minister for quids. (Australian pound note. ) How would you like to front up and deliver a sermon the next Sunday after your own mother passed away, for example? Our pastor had to do just that. How would you console parents that have just lost their much wanted baby? What about having to conduct the funeral service as well for the poor child? And it isn't any easier to see a valued member of the congregation pass away only months after her husband had also died, because she was unable to cope with the loss.

Whilst we sit at our PC's discussing preachers, I really hope everyone stops to think that ministry in Christ's name might mean a lot more than entertaining people for an hour, an hour and a half or, if some of you really insist, two and a half hours. Even the more boring or seemingly less relevant sermons usually means hours of thought out preparation, much like your university assignments. Except it is the congregation are the markers, not teachers. And all for a miserly stipend plus lodgings which keeps the Minister and his family in daily necessities, to allow church donations to be used more effectively. I'd really like to hear what Dr Elwin Ransome has to say about this aspect of ministry, as well as the rest of you.

About the singing, a lot depends on how many people know the tune as well as the hymn, and can marry them up effectively. Some well-known hymns like Crown Him with many Crowns, Oh Worship the King All glorious above, or Praise the Lord the King of Heaven, to his feet thy tribute bring, are so popular they might have been taught at school. Others are instantly recognisable from the Salvation Army Bands, or from Billy Graham's get togethers from my youth.

Another hymn which we sang at a Girls' Brigade Silver Anniversary - Oh Jesus I have promised to serve thee to the end - seems to have a different tune if the Baptists sing it to what the Anglicans use. Others seem to share the same tune as a whole host of other barely recognisable hymns. It is as if the organist learns one or two tunes and tries to fit as many vaguely suitable hymns into the one tune.

Our church once got everyone to list what hymns they liked to hear, which was nice. By the way, which hymns does everyone like, in particular? And do you know if they are sung to more than one tune?

In terms of the role of a pastor, I think you pretty well nailed it, wagga. The role is so much more than just preparation for a sermon and delivering. And to add what you said, there is still the day to day counseling, dealing with random situations, and more. Last week, a young mother showed up with a three-year old daughter with absolutely nothing but the tattered clothes on thier back. We (the church) took care of them. My pastor often gets obscene phone calls simply because he is listed as a pastor in the phone book. It's a tough job, but people going into the profession need to understand that. That doesn't include those that for some reason need to be bi-vocational.

If the opinion of a Presbyterian might be brought to bear, I believe that the worship service should have three elements, each of which is necessary and commanded in Scripture. I also believe that anything that departs from these three elements is forbidden--the second commandment forbids anything in our corporate worship that is not commanded in Scripture.

1. Praise of God. This is done through music and through prayer to God.

2. The Word. Both proclaimed and preached faithfully.

3. The Sacraments. Baptism and the Lord's Supper are to be done as commanded by God in our corporate worship as part of the normal liturgy (I'm almost convinced, BTW, that the Lord's Supper ought to be part of our weekly practice, as it was in the early church).

I don't know how other denominations get around such legal niceties when they are run by Elders rather than by Ordained preachers.

In the Presbyterian tradition, we have two kinds of elders: ruling elders and teaching elders (pastors). Both kinds of elders are ordained, but a teaching elder would be seminary-trained (at a denominational or independent seminary, generally), ordained, examined by the local body and the Presbytery, and licensed to do all that a pastor needs to do. If there is a seminary student or trainee on a pastoral staff, he will often be ordained as a ruling elder so that, for example, he can attend presbytery and general assembly meetings in an official capacity.

Wouldn't those sorts of people complain more if they still had to use the old "Book of Common Prayer", compiled in the sixteenth century, in the sort of English used by William Shakespeare? Ever since the Catholics abandoned the Latin Mass to conduct their services in English, the Anglicans here have updated their prayer books to the Standard English that post 1788 Australians can understand. If the Americans insist on a different version, it would only be to accommodate the different accents and spelling.

Actually, here in the States, the battle in the Episcopal Church to return to the old prayer book (as well as other issues that I cannot discuss here) is seen as one of the symptoms of encroaching liberalism to the point that a large group of Episcopal churches have left the denomination for the Anglican Church in North America, formed last year and in full communion with almost half of the Anglican Communion (and seeking recognition from Canterbury). Most of these churches use the old prayer book--which, by the way, is quite understandable in its language (it's actually sitting on my shelf).

TBG

Brief comment on the Communion (the Lord's Supper). There is no Biblical means that says it must be done weekly. It just says you should do it on a regular basis and whenever you do it, do it with the regulations Paul indicates. My home church in Colorado did it every week. The church I attend now does it once a month on the last Sunday of every month. Neither are wrong in that standpoint. The point is that they do it and they do it by the methods dictated by Scripture, often quoting 1 Corinthians 15 (I think). So if you do it every week during a Sunday service, great. If you do it once a month, great. If you have a mid-week service and do it then, great as well. The have been some weeks where I attend multiple services in the span of that week and had The Lord's Supper 3-4 times during that week. While have the discipline of doing it at a specified time and pattern is great, the issue is the heart. If the heart is not in it, you should not do it. Paul address that as well.

Yes, Shadowlander, songs contain messages. But when we worship God, the focus should be on God, not us. Singing is pleasing to God. That's why we do it. To praise and please Him. If we look to singing to benefit us, then we've missed the point. We can and should sing songs of praise to edify ourselves. But its most important function is to praise God.

I agree with what you're saying here. I understand the point of hymns and other types of worship music. My point was that if you turned your average Sunday church service into a pie chart representation that easily 60-70% of it would be dedicated to music while the other 30-40% is left for the sermon, offering, announcements, etc. And I know that's fine with a lot of folks, and more power to them. For me personally I'd like to see it in the realm of 30% music, 50% message, and 20% for the rest, just as a rough sketch.

I agree with Fencer and Aslan that the kind of message you describe and/or want is more appropriate for a mid-week Bible class, not a Sunday sermon. Good preaching doesn't need details. It just needs to get the point across. I prefer short, powerful preaching that gets a point across and sticks with me and feeds me.

Please understand I don't want a "quick fix". And I don't understand why a good sermon doesn't need details. I mean technically one doesn't need to put up charts and maps (although they'd get bonus points from me ) if that's the detail you're talking about, but I sure wouldn't mind the pastor getting into some background details, especially if they help improve the whole. But like I said, the current way churches are set up seems to apply a shotgun approach, where segments of all types will find something to enjoy and worship with.

Still the mid-week study concept might be better off for me on alternate weeks...it is very difficult to get to church every weekend with my work schedule and the mid week study might help fill in the gap nicely, and would be something I'd be able to sink my teeth into a little better to boot.

This isn't unique to Christianity, BTW. One of the most famous "Heaven and Hell are actually the same place" concepts comes from Jewish tradition. Apparently the dead hang out with God and discuss Torah all day, which is Paradise for the righteous and torment for everyone else.

Haha ! Thank goodness it won't be like that for everyone, eh? Of course if one wants to do that it'll be available to them, but I can't help but feel God might occasionally nudge them out the door and say "Go make yourselves productive for a little bit".

I'm Australian, descended from convicts, among the most sinful and abandoned wretches of the early 1800's, and by definition might not be suitable material for heaven.

The guy on the cross next to Christ probably thought the same thing, but look at him now.

If it as boring as what people make out, with unsuitable songs and neverending preaching about my shortcomings, I might start thinking the Other Place might be more fun.

On a serious note please don't even joke about such things. I once had the same view of Heaven, a pretty place with lots of sermons in hard wooden pews that was supposed to have let out about 12,000 years ago but (*checks his watch*) doesn't appear to have happened. But even when I held that (very erroneous) viewpoint, facing a choice between eternal boredom and eternal agony and despair...well, there was never a contest. Now after having studied a little bit on the subject the Heaven that everyone perceives as "boring" I can assure you it'll be anything but and filled with not only worship, but love and quite a bit of adventure. Definitely something to look forward to!

Whilst we sit at our PC's discussing preachers, I really hope everyone stops to think that ministry in Christ's name might mean a lot more than entertaining people for an hour, an hour and a half or, if some of you really insist, two and a half hours. Even the more boring or seemingly less relevant sermons usually means hours of thought out preparation, much like your university assignments. Except it is the congregation are the markers, not teachers. And all for a miserly stipend plus lodgings which keeps the Minister and his family in daily necessities, to allow church donations to be used more effectively.

All of your points are excellent and I agree with you. My only concern is that no matter how hard they try and how much preparation they may put into it not everyone is meant to be a neurosurgeon. In the same way I think being a pastor or minister is a very specialized job that requires God's personal calling to that person.

By the way, which hymns does everyone like, in particular? And do you know if they are sung to more than one tune?

Well, favorite, like I said before, has always been Onward Christian Soldiers, followed by A Mighty Fortress. As for hymns to different tunes, I don't know if this counts, but the classic Amazing Grace can be sung to the tune of Gilligan's Island. I learned that little factoid in Youth Group years ago, of all places.

Well, God knew that Adam & Eve would fall into Sin, so He A.) didn't need to adjust the temperature for naked people , and B.) didn't have to worry about expanding the garden, for He knew only Adam & Eve would dwell in it. And yes, of course, the garden was on the Earth, the garden was protected by an Angel, but, I believe, it was simply washed away by the Flood, like everything else was, God really did start over everything. Adam & Eve did not have the power to make sin enter the World, it was in God's Will, and under God's sight and control, if He did not want to allow Man to make this decision, He would have stopped them, for if God did not plan letting them bring Sin into the world, what sort of God would that be? A God who has no rule over men and simply weeps in heaven over Man's actions. So, yes, Man did have their own free choice to take the bite of that apple, but, it was all under God's Will.

I know that God allowed Adam and Eve to sin. I was mostly curious about what happen to the Garden of Eden. I had forgotten about the flood. I also thought that it was funny that my sister randomly said what she did.

The Old Maid, thanks for explaining the different theories about what happened to Eden.

Just curious, what do you all think about guest speakers for the sermons, even if from within the congregation that's not an officially ordained leader? I think this could be allowed in special occasions, especially if that guest speaker worked with the pastor in advance.

I don’t have a problem with it, especially if the speaker works with the pastor in advance. At one of the churches we went too, the pastor would have a member of the congregation preach when he was on vacation.

I'm surprised you mentioned it was only a possibility that you are a weirdo. I would have thought that you would have been told that by people before.

Heeeey!

Sorry, I just couldn’t resist. It was just such a nice set up. Besides, it gets you back a little for when you have messed with me.

I am forever looking to improve upon my hootage (pronounced like homage) and expand hootiness to all corners of my dominion.

You are doing an excellent job. Keep it up.

On Christmas morning one day the pastor I mentioned gave a twenty minute sermon on the history of Bethlehem and it was boring.

Actually...this kind of appeals to me! Of course the trick is to make it interesting. The most fascinating subject in the world (like the menu at Taco Bell) can be made into a boring snoozefest if it's not presented in the right way. Likewise, one can talk about the history of something boring like tube socks and make it interesting if the same methodology is applied and one has a gifted speaker, so six of one, half a dozen of the other I suppose.

I can’t remember exactly why I didn’t like it. He is not the most engaging speaker for one. I think a lot of it had to do with not seeming right for Christmas morning - not enough about Jesus. I tend to think that Christmas story speaks fairly well for itself and that the regular length average for our church (10-15 min.) is plenty. He did have pictures up on the screens at least. It also could be that my personal feelings made me judge more harshly. This Christmas a different pastor preached. His sermon was much better. He focused on how the birth of a child changes things and even used the birth of Miraz’s son as an example.

I also agree that we do need more message in our services. But that message needs to be solid, Biblical meat. At the same time, the preacher needs to be engaging with congregation.

That's the real key, methinks. The pastor has to have that "gift" of engaging the congregation, as you put it, and drawing them in to the narrative. We've all seen pastors that did not have this gift and no amount of Vivarin can help keep you awake. In that context extra music would be a Godsend, if for no other reason than to let you move a little bit and shake the lethargy out of one's limbs.

That is the key. Too often at my church the Biblical part is lost in the examples. The senior pastor in particular is not the best. He tells a lot of stories but we tend to lose the connection the Bible reading (of course that could have at times have something to do with wandering attention, but I know there are times that I have not lost focus and still come away wondering what the point was). I went to InterVarsity a few times while I was in college. I really enjoyed the message part of it and 20 minutes of sermon seemed like nothing. I wasn’t really comfortable with the singing part, and it was later in the evening which isn’t my best time so I only went if my sister insisted.

But because the pastor doesn't know how to speak one may end up going to church more as a duty rather than to go and actually learn something.

That’s mostly why I go - as a duty. Although I usually enjoy the worship / bible study thing I attend every other Sunday Night.

I wonder if the music director takes requests...

At my church he does. People are allowed and encouraged to submit their favorite hymns. Another church we were at dedicated the summer months to singing favorite hymns.

Anyway ... Shadowlander, I can empathize with not wanting to sing, especially if the songs are kind of lame or there doesn't seem to be enough heart in the congregation -- or perhaps, they seem to be "ginning up" their enthusiasm. I'm reminded, though, of Screwtape's advice to Wormwood, to keep "the patient" focused on all the lameness of a church service, including the incomprehensible words in the liturgy book and the shabby songs, mostly bad ... and so on. Is the church otherwise good? I hope the Word is taught there. Say more, eh wot?

Ouch. I rather guilty of this. I am so quick to focus on the negatives – the typos, the parts cut from the services, that the senior pastor wiggles like an excited puppy when he preaches, …. I wonder though if that isn’t a partly because of other more serious issues. I have absolutely no respect for the senior pastor. I really wish that I had followed my instincts and voted against his coming then I would feel I had more of a right to complain. He changes things to suit his whims (worship time, style) and they usually flop. He announced in church that he was bringing someone in to “fix the Sunday School program.” Imagine my surprise as a Sunday school teacher to find out when sitting in church that the program was “broken.” The program we switched to is awful. We went from a hands-on, concrete type curriculum to an abstract one. I teach kindergarteners, and they are not ready to understand the parable of the leaven for example. (Actually, I really don’t understand it either ). For a while he we had Sunday school during church so the parents could go to church while the students were at Sunday school. The program we use has some components of a worship service (a greeting, songs, a Bible story with “questions” (I wonder …?), prayer, a feast, and a bit of a closing. At the time when Sunday school was during church, we were actually doing all of those components. Now, at least in my classroom, we have dropped several of the components. He said that children are not the future of the church that parents are. He was largely responsible for our organist leaving. She was an amazing organist and had a very good choir program. Since she left, the choir program has shrunk and there is no longer a children’s choir (there used to be three). His sermons are not always Biblically sound.

The football "hymn" you transcribed the lyrics for is...horrid. An unholy fusion of football and poorly written religious "zeal"...I thought I'd seen it all.

It is horrible. I don’t know what is worse - that song or when church events are rescheduled because of conflicting football games. Yes, the latter does happen.

Coinkadinkally I believe that when most folks think of Heaven they tend to associate it with those long, boring services, which is a shame because it will be nothing at all like that.

Guilty again. I've been thinking "but I don't want to spend all of my time worshiping it will be so boring and I don't like sing for a long time." Then, I get mad at myself because I should be focusing on God not on what I want.

Our church once got everyone to list what hymns they liked to hear, which was nice. By the way, which hymns does everyone like, in particular? And do you know if they are sung to more than one tune?

I know a lot of hymns are sung to different tunes and a lot of tunes are used for different hymns. Of course I can't think of any examples right now. There is one hymn we sing (Go, my Children with My Blessing) that has the same tune as a lullaby and I have a hard time with that. Some of my favorites are: Go Tell it on the Mountain, On Eagle's Wings, Earth and all Stars, A Mighty Fortress is our God, Light ONe Candle to Wait for the Messiah, Here I am Lord, and Beautiful Savior.

1. Praise of God. This is done through music and through prayer to God.

2. The Word. Both proclaimed and preached faithfully.

3. The Sacraments. Baptism and the Lord's Supper are to be done as commanded by God in our corporate worship as part of the normal liturgy (I'm almost convinced, BTW, that the Lord's Supper ought to be part of our weekly practice, as it was in the early church).

That is a great rundown of what a service should be. My church tends to have problems with number two. The amount of scripture readings is one of the first things to get cut for time. I don’t know if this would fit under any of the topics, but I also feel it is import to have some sort of a confession. (ex. We confess that we are in bondage to sin and cannot free ourselves. We have sinned against you in thought, word, and deed by what we have done and by what we have left undone. We have not loved you with our whole heart. We have not loved our neighbors as ourselves. For the sake of your Son Jesus Christ, forgive us, renew us, and lead us that we might delight in Your will and walk in Your ways to the glory of Your holy name). I would rather have communion less often (My church does it at most if not all services). When it is a regular part of the service it runs the risk of becoming more of a habit than something meaningful.

The minister also gives us a good idea from casual comments made when delivering church notices, through the sermon, through prayers and elsewhere of what sort of work pastors have to do. It isn't just working on Sundays;

They certainly don’t just work on Sundays. They have a lot they need to do, as you mentioned. I’ll try to mention some that weren’t mentioned but it might overlap. Pastors often have meetings to attend in evenings. They have to deal with people looking for help (financial). Our town has made that a little easier by having the churches donate to a volunteer organization and then send people to them. That stops people from going to every church in town to get help. They are often a part of community organizations. They have to worry about where money will come from, church attendance, etc. They often teach confirmation classes, lead Bible studies, etc. Sometimes they have to try to keep peace between different groups in the church. When they have to weekend off, it is hard for them to go to their own church because people will still ask them questions about the service. They also have regional meetings to attend. Often it involves long hours and rather low pay. People expect them to be available night and day. In churches that allow married pastors, it is often hard on the pastor’s families as well. Some congregations expect the pastor’s wife to do certain duties and be involved in certain groups. Pastor’s children are often expected to behave in a certain way (although sometimes they are the worse behaved in church ) and know all the answers in Sunday school.

Finally, a question: I've recently begun a miniseries about the notion that God in the Old Testament was supreme and mean, and all about the Law. But when Jesus came to Earth, He was just so niiice to people, and He accepted them all and "loved" everyone nonstop, He didn't bother with any of that Law stuff. That's why He fought Pharisees. But is that only half-true? And have you heard or believed that myth in the past? I know I have incidentally thought it was the case. Thoughts welcome! And especially, what Scriptures relate to the issue?

After all that I wrote above, I have kind of run out of steam but I will say a few things. I did have the idea that God in the Old Testament was often “mean” or at least harsh. I still feel bad for the animals that were sacrificed and about some of the people, especially children, who were killed (although I know that if God did it / commanded it is must be right). I did think of the God of the Old Testament as being different from the God in the New Testament. Now I realize that that is not the case. For example, look at all of the times that the Israelites were spared. It is interesting to note that the Jesus (not in human form but as the Angel of the Lord) was present in the Old Testament. I’m pretty sure my Bible (AMP) said that He was the one that lead the Israelites in the pillar of smoke and fire. Jesus was fairly hard on his disciples at times, and some of his parables weren’t very “nice” either.