Egads indeed Doc

I did read your links in puzzlement. Puzzled because they contradict some of the following links (some of which contain video) of Pat Robertson excoriating Evolution as Atheism.

http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/02/19/ray-comfort-pat-robertson-on-evolution/

http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/200512190011

Apparently, Pat Robertson may subscribe to Old Earth Creationism, but Creationism nonetheless.

However, I expect you and I might agree that many of Robertson's views are "un-Christian", though perhaps from different bases .

GB

Maybe we were both misreading each other. I had no idea you were unemployed, otherwise I would not have been so insensitively dismissive of your concerns. I'm sorry for that, and wish you all the best for getting another job and more suitable accommodation soon.

Thank you.

Could you please investigate which Biblical references support 1. A round Earth and 2. Galileo's assertion that the Earth and all the other planets orbit the Sun? You know as a fact that the Earth is round or cigar shaped, and that Galileo discovered the truth.

Well, what about Isaiah 40:22? "[It is] he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof [are] as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in." The Hebrew for "circle" here, chuwg, appears 3 times in the KJV. It means:
1) circle, circuit, compass
2) (BDB) vault (of the heavens)

Other instances are...
1. Job 22 "Thick clouds [are] a covering to him, that he seeth not; and he walketh in the circuit of heaven."
2. Proverbs 8 "When he prepared the heavens, I [was] there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth."
[Genesius' Lexicon says this word is "a circle, sphere, used of the arch or vault of the sky, Proverbs 8:27, Job 22:14; of the world, Isaiah 40:22."]

wagga: regarding working for nothing, good example of Jesus' parable on the denarius. But in which gospel does it appear? Matthew [chapter 20]. And why? He was a former tax collector. Most of Jesus' parables and miracles dealing with money appear in Matthew. But he left his job to follow Jesus. So did many of Jesus' other disciples. You say they "had a trade to turn to when necessary. Peter and the sons of Zebedee went fishing..." Didn't they leave fishing after Jesus said to them, "Follow me and I will make you fishers of men"? [Matt 4:19, Mark 1:17] After the rich young ruler turned away from Jesus because he refused to give up his wealth, and Jesus said only with God is it possible for a rich person to be saved [i.e. Zaccheus ], Peter asked Jesus, "We have forsaken all and followed thee. What shall we have therefore?" And in John 21, Peter and some other disciples briefly return to fishing but Jesus tells Peter to feed His sheep [not fish]. So we see in Acts 3 that Peter has definitely given up fishing for evangelism! And in Acts 6:4, he and the other disciples say "We will give ourselves continually to prayer and to the ministry of the Word." There's no mention of fishing for Peter after the gospels!

Fencer: thanks for the insights and encouragement on spiritual warfare.

But he left his job to follow Jesus. So did many of Jesus' other disciples. You say they "had a trade to turn to when necessary. Peter and the sons of Zebedee went fishing..." Didn't they leave fishing after Jesus said to them, "Follow me and I will make you fishers of men"? [Matt 4:19, Mark 1:17]

No they didn't, according to John 6: 16-21. Matthew is considered the most canonical of the four gospels, and the account in Mark is so similar it might be a copy. But in John we have either a different version or something that happened later on in Jesus' ministry. This is the incident about walking on water, and the fishing trip in which Jesus advises Peter and co to fish from the other side of the boat. I believe there was a storm as well. I quite agree about Matthew the tax gatherer, but then accountancy wasn't my thing either, though my dad used to enjoy his speed at mathematics. On the other hand, one of the original twelve apostles did act as treasurer for the group, which I think might have been Judas Iscariot.

By the way, fishing, like other skills learned along the way, doesn't always have to be a 'earn-your-living' thing. It can not only be for mere survival, but also be simply for relaxation, just as knitting can. My dad used to take me fishing, even if I only ever caught crabs. And I have to be fair, whilst earning one's living is a useful thing to do, having fun whilst one is doing it is even better.

No they didn't, according to John 6:16-21. But in John we have either a different version or something that happened later on in Jesus' ministry. This is the incident about walking on water, and the fishing trip in which Jesus advises Peter and co to fish from the other side of the boat. I believe there was a storm as well.

I think you're confused. John 6:15-21 does describe a storm and Jesus walking on water. But there's no mention of fish... There are only two places in the gospels where it says Peter and a few other disciples were fishing. And both times Jesus tells them to give up fishing and follow Him.
1. Matthew 4:18-22, Mark 1:16-20, Luke 5:1-11 [they all describe the same incident, Luke being the most detailed and giving the first miracle of fish]
2. John 21:1-13 [second miracle of fish]

What do these miracles demonstrate? That Jesus is in control. He can catch more fish [those with scales and men!] just by speaking the word than they can toiling all day and all night. All they have to do is follow Him.

... Just now as I was typing this I realized I was saying the same thing as what I've been hearing at a prayer conference all day. God works in mysterious ways! At the prayer conference I'm attending, the reiterated message has been "I can't, God. You can. So do it now." Sometimes we ask God to do something, then we try to do it ourselves in the flesh. It doesn't work that way. Whether desiring revival, the salvation of a loved one, or personal spiritual renewal, all we have to do is pray and trust in God. We are powerless without God and we must seek His face. Why is the world messed up? Why are people leaving church? Because God's people are not seeking His face. Programs, sermons, and worship don't fix it. Prayer and fasting--trusting in and depending on God--do.

On the other hand, one of the original twelve apostles did act as treasurer for the group, which I think might have been Judas Iscariot.

Correct...

(edited)

I'd be very cautious about that, 220. Yes, we need prayer. Yes, we need people to be seeking God. But if the theme of the conference is "I can't, God. You can. So do it now." (emphasis mine), I'd keep away from it. Yes, we need to rely on God because we can't do it. But this treads a very thin layer of ice before diving into attempting to strong-arm God. I'm not saying this is what the conference was doing or saying, but it does tread very dangeously close to it.

One thing I've learned about prayer is that it is not about merely presenting our requests to God. Yes, God wants us to come to him and ask him about things, but the focus of prayer should be building your relationship with God. The more you build that releationship, the more you get to know God and his character. The more get to know God, the closer you get to him and the more God is able to conform you to his image. And as you conform to his image, your requests fall in line with what he wants for you.

Making requests to God, acknowledging that we cannot do it on our own strength, and leaving the thing before him is a very good thing to do. What turns me off right off the boat is the line So do it now. God is outside our time and he will do things when he wants them done. If you think you can get God to fullfill a request at your timing, you will be very sadly dissapointed. For example, I know you've been talking about revivial for a while on these forums. And based on what I've gleaned from you, it appears to me that you want it to happen ASAP. I do agree with you that we do need revival and it is taking place in various places (it's happening in Juarez, MX in spite of the on going drug cartel war). But you know we can't change the hearts of the people to make revival take place. Only God can. So we have to wait for God to be ready to move, which will only be in his timing.

But that being said, just sitting back and saying 'Oh, God's going to take care of it, so I'm going to sit back and do nothing' is as faulty and trying to strong-arm him to do it too soon. Sometimes we need to be proactive with our requests as well. You can pray about a job for years and never get one if you don't fill out an application. That is part of what faith is all about. Taking that step where you have no control of the situation. My sister and brother-in-law are doing that this next month by moving to Chennai, India for at least three years of missions. So be bold and be proactive with your prayers, but don't think you can get God to do it at your timing. I trust you understand that, but that theme is an automatic red flag to me. Check what they say with the Scripture and toss out what doesn't fit with the Word.

One thing I've learned about prayer is that it is not about merely presenting our requests to God. Yes, God wants us to come to him and ask him about things, but the focus of prayer should be building your relationship with God. The more you build that releationship, the more you get to know God and his character. The more get to know God, the closer you get to him and the more God is able to conform you to his image. And as you conform to his image, your requests fall in line with what he wants for you. ... But you know we can't change the hearts of the people to make revival take place. Only God can. So we have to wait for God to be ready to move, which will only be in his timing.

Agreed and well said.

Yes, we need to rely on God because we can't do it. But this treads a very thin layer of ice before diving into attempting to strong-arm God. ... God is outside our time and he will do things when he wants them done. If you think you can get God to fullfill a request at your timing, you will be very sadly dissapointed.

Yes, we need to wait for God's timing. But what happened to desperation, persistence? Was Hezekiah strong-arming God when he said "Lord, heal me"? Was Elijah strong-arming God when he prayed for the child of the widow woman? Was the Syrophenician woman strong-arming Jesus when she prayed for her daughter to be healed? Was the church strong-arming God when they prayed without ceasing for Peter to be released from prison? All these people, and many others, kept praying--refusing to give up--until their request was answered... What does Jesus say in Matthew 7? Keep asking, keep seeking, keep knocking until the door opens, until your God hears your prayer and answers.

I agree that there are times for that. Persistant prayer is a good thing. But that's not what I'm talking about. I was concerned though that this could go into the extreme 'name-it-claim-it' type of doctrine that is simply unBiblical. But let me ask you, did any of those people you mention include the time? Hezikiah never prayed, "Lord, heal me now?" He prayed "Lord, heal me." Same thing for Elijah, the Syrophoncian woman, and the church for Peter. They prayed for deliverance for their need, but they never begged God to do it right then.

Here is a key reason why. They knew that God would never, ever show up late. He never has and never will. Even if he is late by our standards (as is the case of Lazarus). Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego told Nebuchadnezzar that God was capable of saving them from the fiery furnace. But they also said that even if God did not, they would still serve him. God may not answer our prayers the way we would like. When that is the case, it is because he has something even bigger and better for us in the long run.

Personally, I have an issue with stuttering (did you know Moses was also a stutterer?). I have had many people try to pray for me to heal it. Some of which expected it to happen immediately. Guess what? God hasn't. Paul prayed for his thorn to be removed. Guess what? God didn't. The reason why. Does it really matter other than he has a purpose for it. God has used my stuttering when I do my fencing ministry to bless others. Do I want the stuttering to go away? Yes. I could speak so much more clearly without getting blocks and really say what I have to say. Have I prayed for God to take it away? Yes. But am I content with what God has given me and his grace? Yes. If God never takes away my stuttering until I get to heaven, I'm okay with that. If he does do it, I'm all for it as well. In the meantime, I'm not going to let it get in the way of how God is using me.

So praying for these things are a good thing to do. But we do need to be content with how God answers it, even if it isn't what we were hoping for or expecting. The big issue I am making, don't try to put a time frame on God. It simply won't work. If your request happens to coincide with God's timing, great. Pray and do pray with persistance. But know that God is in control and everything will come to pass according to his will at his timing.

I think you're confused. John 6:15-21 does describe a storm and Jesus walking on water. But there's no mention of fish... There are only two places in the gospels where it says Peter and a few other disciples were fishing. And both times Jesus tells them to give up fishing and follow Him.

My fault for not checking out the references thoroughly. The proper references should have been Luke 5:1-11 & John 21: 1-16. There was quite a bit about fishes and fishing in the Gospels, which is why the fish was the first emblem of Christianity.

There was quite a bit about fishes and fishing in the Gospels, which is why the fish was the first emblem of Christianity.

Yes, the fish was the first emblem of Christianity but it really had nothing to do with fishing, at least not in the physical / job sense. Jesus told His disciples He would make them "fishers of men." So fish = believers. And the Greek word for fish, ichthus, was an acronym for "Jesus Christ, God's son, savior."

My fault for not checking out the references thoroughly.

We've all done that.

don't try to put a time frame on God. It simply won't work. If your request happens to coincide with God's timing, great. Pray and do pray with persistance. But know that God is in control and everything will come to pass according to his will at his timing.

Agreed. But sometimes when we pray with perseverance and desperation/urgency, it is according to God's timing.

Did any of those people you mention include the time? Hezikiah never prayed, "Lord, heal me now?" He prayed "Lord, heal me." Same thing for Elijah, the Syrophoncian woman, and the church for Peter. They prayed for deliverance for their need, but they never begged God to do it right then.

Regarding these four, I assumed "now" was part of the package. Elijah had a dead child on his hands. It was "now or never." If he didn't beg God to do it right then, when would it have happened? Never? The woman with the issue of blood endured doctors twelve years but only when she became desperate did she go to Jesus, expecting a miracle when she approached him--essentially "now." The same with the Syrophoenician woman. When she came to Jesus, the persistence of her request implied "now." In Peter's case, the church was desperate. The following day was his trial with Herod and the latter had already killed James. The church had lost Stephen before that. For Peter, it was "now or never." Generally, though, it depends on what you're praying for. And God will lead and guide us when we pray. Sarah, Rachel, Hannah, Elizabeth, and others had to wait a year for their first [with Sarah and Elizabeth, only] baby, but they had to wait many more years before that for their prayer to be heard.

EDIT: 1/24
Fencer: Saturday morning during the conference, I talked to the pastor who made the comment we've been discussing ["I can't, God. You can. So do it now."]. I explained what you said. And the pastor replied that he understood your viewpoint, since the main thing is our attitude to whether God comes through or not. We can't get angry at Him if He doesn't come through, i.e. chooses to say "no." The pastor experienced this with the sudden death of his father and the bequeathal of a thousands-of-members church as a result. But the pastor also said that sometimes asking God to do something now--a prayer of desperation / urgency for physical healing, let's say--is not strong-arming God. He then gave the example of the church coming together, as with Peter, to pray night and day for a man with cancer. He was healed. This past Christmas, the church prayed for a man with 1st, 2nd, and 3rd-degree burns. He was also healed. I heard him give his testimony on TV this morning. The doctors wanted to "bottle" his cure for other burn victims. And these people are Baptists! When my home Pentecostal church prays for sick people, they eventually die. What's the difference? Bold faith, the prayer of desperation/urgency that won't take "no" for an answer.
/EDIT

"The devil comes to steal, kill, and destroy." Now, you say that the devil is God's devil. That is likely enough, but I think that God has given us the right to return everything to the devil that he gave us and with interest.

I wanted to say more about this earlier but didn't have the chance. I don't know that I would phrase it this way. We don't return to the devil what he gave us. The devil doesn't "give" us anything. He "steals," as you mentioned in that verse [John 10]. So what do we in response, in Jesus' name? We spoil the devil! We take back what he stole from us! The "spoils of war" are biblical. Israel "spoiled [plundered] the Egyptians" [Exodus 12]. In 1 Samuel 30, David and his 400 men went into the Amalekites' camp and got back everything stolen from them. 2 Kings 7: Israel "spoiled the tents of the Syrians." 2 Chronicles 20 it took 3 days for Israel to spoil the camp of their enemies. Colossians 2 on the cross, Jesus "spoiled principalities and powers." He said He would "divide the spoil with the strong" [Isaiah 53] -- us, in the power of the Spirit.

Wow! Nobody's posted anything in 3 days! So do I just tend to squelch discussion?

Anyway, I was eating at Cracker Barrel on Sunday when it suddenly occurred to me every person who was needed to make this meal happen. You know, the architects and farmers and electricians and plumbers and inventors and factory workers and employers and employees ... and God. Who made the chicken, vegetables, and bread? God. Who made the farmers who harvested the food? God. Who made the inventors who designed the farm equipment? God. Who made the architects who designed the factories and Cracker Barrel itself? God. Who made the electricians and plumbers and employers and employees so Cracker Barrel could function as a restaurant? God. Who made the person who designed the money in my wallet, and the factory so the money could be mass produced, just so I could pay for my meal? God. So, you see, everything we need comes from God. Everything. Let us truly be thankful to God for every morsel of food we eat!