I'm not a mod, but I will say this anyway. Watz, there are younger folks on this forum. Please watch your language.

I bid you all adieu.

No, I can't accept that all things in this world are God's will. THAT MAKES HIM BOTH GOOD AND BAD! There is a difference between something being God's will and God allowing something to happen. Just because God allows something to happen it doesn't mean that he wills it so. The thing of it is, he has planned everything out so that no matter what the devil does to try and change the end result of "We win" will be fruitless. You see, God takes everything that the enemy does against him, which he obviously didn't will, and switches it to work for a greater glory. The enemy therefore, is screwed, no matter how much "ill will" he does 'cause God will just "flip it". This view therefore, doesn't say that everything is God's will (which has to be so or else God is both good and evil), but says that God will use everything for his will.

Not necessarily...

God could've simply put in His Will to let Man do as they please, but, it's all according to His Will, obviously, so, Man can't do just anything they please. It's not God that is Evil, it is Man that is Evil, because they are fallen into Sin... you are trying to push Man's sin and Man's fault onto God.

LITD

No, I can't accept that all things in this world are God's will. THAT MAKES HIM BOTH GOOD AND BAD! There is a difference between something being God's will and God allowing something to happen. Just because God allows something to happen it doesn't mean that he wills it so.

Yes He wills it so--He uses evil to accomplish His perfect purposes, even though free agents. Hitler was not acting out of anything but his own depraved will--but how could he have come to power unless the almighty had allowed it? Who is it that raises up and casts down nations, rulers, empires, and tyrants? Is it not the Lord? If God allows it, then God wants it to happen--that is, the effects of it happening are better than the effects of it not happening.

Consider this argument from evil:

1: A Good God cannot allow pointless evil.
2: There is pointless evil in our world.
3: God does not exist or is not good.

If any evil that happens is pointless, then God is not good or does not exist. On the other hand, though:

1: A Good God cannot allow pointless evil.
2: God is there.
3: God is Good.
4: Therefore there is no pointless evil.

Does this mean that you will always see the point of the evil that you see? No--you're not God. Job was a man who wrestled with this very question, yet what was God's answer? God answered with more questions--"Where were you, Job, when I created the world? Who is Lord here? Do you have enough faith to trust that I have reasons and will not let injustice reign forever?"

What we can distinguish between however, is God's sovereign will, which is His sovereign plan for history, and His moral will--that is, His commands to His people--His law. His law is a revelation of His holiness and the standard by which He judges--a standard that none of us can meet, which is why we need the grace that is found in the imputed righteousness of Christ alone.

TBG

Good post, TBG. I agree that God uses evil to accomplish his perfect purposes, but I still can't see how predertimined actions are free.
If I commit a crime, say, robbing the local drugstore, is that part of God's plan?
It has to be. It's true that he's using it for his good purposes, but if it was his plan I could not have done anything else without thwarting that plan. Can a mere human thwart the plan of God? I think not. So if it was God's plan, and I could not have done anything else, I was not working by my will at all.

That's how I'm seeing it right now. I can't find any holes in my logic, but if you could find some for me I'd be very grateful.

Edit:
Or you could give me some scripture: it trumps logic.

Your arguments hold not much weight with me. All that you have proved is that there is no pointless evil in the world. I absolutely agree, but what is the point of the evil? Initially, it is the devils aim to use it to destroy us and bring us into the pit. Try out this reasoning:

1: Good and evil are opposites, so nobody can be both good and evil.
2: God is good, so he cannot be evil.

God therefore, cannot cause or will any evil to anyone. That is the devil's job. What you are forgetting is that we are living in the clash between two kingdoms and that both are carrying on according to their nature (will).

So, when something completely terrible happens to us, we shouldn't think, "well it is God's will, so I will just grin and bear it." GRIN AND BEAR IT! Are you kidding?! It isn't God's will that you should be under the paw of the enemy. It His will that you should overcome.

Unfortunately, to overcome, we have to... have something to overcome. It's a bummer, I know, but it is true. That is why God allows bad things to happen to us: so we can learn how to overcome and grow.

Again, your arguments prove that there isn't pointless evil, but it doesn't prove that God is the one that causes it. Indeed, He can't cause it because He isn't "it". He allows it however, as I have said, so that we may grow.

If causing evil is the devil's job, he only does it, as you said, because God allows it. And if God allows it, it is because he wills it. The reason he is not responsible for the evil is that he didn't make it; man's evil is the work of man's free will. But that just brings me back to the conundrum I brought up in my last post.

Good post, TBG. I agree that God uses evil to accomplish his perfect purposes, but I still can't see how predertimined actions are free.

Let's take your robbing the store example. First of all, is God the cause of the robbery? Only in the sense that He is the cause of you and did not prevent you from following your wicked desires. He lifted restraints of common grace and therefore you, being less constrained, of your own free will and your own volition, went and showed us what a wretched person you really are.

Good and evil are opposites, so nobody can be both good and evil.

I am. I am a child of God and therefore under His grace and indwelt with the Spirit, yet I am also a sinner, who, but for the grace of God, would go to Hell.

God allows and plans for evil so that He can show Himself stronger in overcoming it by redeeming His creation. It's about Him, not you.

We also have to understand that there are natural evils that we can attribute to God. On our insurance policies, natural disasters are labelled "Acts of God". Why? Because we recognize that it is God who controls the wind, the waves, the tectonic plates, and volcanoes. You ask why he destroys: I ask why he has mercy on everyone else.

Question for all of you: why has God not destroyed you? Why does God think you worth saving?

TBG

Let's take your robbing the store example. First of all, is God the cause of the robbery? Only in the sense that He is the cause of you and did not prevent you from following your wicked desires. He lifted restraints of common grace and therefore you, being less constrained, of your own free will and your own volition, went and showed us what a wretched person you really are.

Yes, but was this robbery foreordained by God? Furthermore, was my sinful nature foreordained by God? If God determined from before the foundation of the world that I would have a sinful nature and that I would rob the local drugstore, how am I responsible for my wretchedness?

[Disclaimer] I know perfectly well that God isn't responsible for my sin. I believe God, and I believe his Word. I'm just trying to sort things out. [/Disclaimer]

Of course it was foreordained--yet that's not why you did it: you did it because you wanted to. You were depraved and acted according to your depraved nature, which God holds you accountable for.

And yes, God did foreordain that you would have a sin nature, but it was your descent from Adam that gave you that sin nature: God can't be blamed for that.

TBG

Hmmm. But was Adam responsible for his foreordained sin?

While you guys are hashing that out, I hope to provide a point-by-point rebuttal to some points — or, more than likely, unknown assumptions — in your recent post, Watz. (Hey, by the way, I still need to get back with you about your short PM. You caught me right while I was out of town.)

Though I’m writing this in the form of a point-by-point rebuttal, my hope is that this will be seen as loving, Christ-centered, Gospel-driven advice, not just another internet doctrine “gotcha” game.

Your arguments hold not much weight with me. All that you have proved is that there is no pointless evil in the world. I absolutely agree, but what is the point of the evil? Initially, it is the Devils aim to use it to destroy us and bring us into the pit.

Okay, I shall do my best to say something that could sound very close to “who cares what you think” while doing it with the same loving, caring attitude I mentioned above. (Cue “magician trick” music theme, I don’t know what it’s called, that plays in Warner Brothers cartoons when, for example, Bugs Bunny is trying to ride a unicycle across the circus tightrope) Here goes: Watz, in the grand scheme of things, it doesn’t matter whether the arguments hold weight with you personally.

Again I have to question your basis for determining truth, based on our previous topic. When confronted with any idea, a Christian must not only ask whether it resonates with his/her existing beliefs or garners a positive emotional reaction. The main question should instead be: is this idea compatible with what the Bible says?

Much of this discussion has been more logical/philosophical than theological, and there’s certainly a place for that (and that’s why I enjoy reading it!). But ultimately our views about God’s sovereignty, free will, and all that, must not be based on philosophical arguments, but on the Word itself.

And again, I mean the literal Word of God, words on the page, the very material, physical way God has revealed His thoughts on things; I am not talking about some supposed “inner” revelation.

Also referring to the previous topic, in which a lot of people were jumping on ya: While the Spirit helps Christians understand what the Word is saying, that understanding is not apart from the very “physical” gifts God has given His people in terms of teaching, expositing, and intellectual evaluation. More often, it is the Spirit’s influence that helps Christ’s redeemed people apply the truth in their lives.

While God helps us grow in understand His word individually, He also gave us preachers, teachers, popular and local, and by extension, their writings, commentaries and other materials to help us delve deeper. It would be a shame to miss out on that treasure trove of collective wisdom, don’t you think?

Try out this reasoning:

1: Good and evil are opposites, so nobody can be both good and evil.

As TBG already pointed out, actually Christians could be considered both good and evil. Paul was clear in Romans 7 that even though he was saved, he considered himself “the chief of sinners,” present tense. So that alone debunks the reasoning.

But even aside from that truth, C.S. Lewis made some great arguments that good and evil are not opposites. (Read The Screwtape Letters for more.) Claiming or implying that good and evil, or God and the Devil, are “opposites” is to drag good — and the origin of goodness, God — down, and evil — and the Devil — up, much too far. The Devil is so far below God — powerful, but pathetic.

I wonder if sometimes you are ascribing too much sinful influence to the Devil. Yes, Christ died to destroy him (Hebrews 2:14), but we have quite enough sin in our own hearts to go blaming the Devil for it. In the Gospel metanarrative, the Devil is a key player, but he doesn’t get blamed for our sin and the corruption on Earth, people do. Similarly, Scripture doesn’t talk about beating the Devil as much as it does our own sins! Compare the few instances of the Epistle writers’ mentions of fighting or resisting the Devil (such as James 4:7 and 1 Peter 5:8) with the voluminous encouragement to imitate Christ, live in unity and teach the Word rightly, and to battle our own fleshly desires.

Part of why I’m saying this is based on recent reading about Christian teachers who minimize humans’ sinful natures and ascribe far too much blame for our remnant evil actions on the Devil. So your mentions of the Devil, without similar material about humans’ similar natures, leaped out to me.

2: God is good, so he cannot be evil.

God therefore, cannot cause or will any evil to anyone. That is the Devil's job. What you are forgetting is that we are living in the clash between two kingdoms and that both are carrying on according to their nature (will).

Scriptural support, please? The way you phrase it sounds more like the Light and Dark Sides of the Force, evenly matched, than the almighty God Who does whatever He pleases (Psalm 6) and Whose will cannot be thwarted. The Devil, as Martin Luther famously said, is still “God’s Devil.” Nothing the Devil does is outside God’s control or allowance. Nothing. Nothing. That means that even if evil can be ascribed to the Devil (and it can) — but aren’t you forgetting sinful humans too? — God has allowed it, for whatever good purpose He has ordained.

Watz, my encouragement to you is to read carefully the book of Romans, especially chapter 9, and then come back and try to say without at least a twinge of uncertainty that God is not directly responsible for allowing evil for the sake of a greater good. Eh?

As LITD has pointed out, the view you advocate, though I’m not sure if you intended it, would naturally make God weak, hand-wringing, hardly respectable — and worse, contradicts Scripture.

So, when something completely terrible happens to us, we shouldn't think, "well it is God's will, so I will just grin and bear it." GRIN AND BEAR IT! Are you kidding?! It isn't God's will that you should be under the paw of the enemy. It His will that you should overcome.

Dude — martyrs. Just a reminder: they overcome and beat back the Devil by the blood of the lamb and their testimony (Revelation 12:11). They also die. Some people, even Christians, would say that if you suffer and die, that’s a victory for the Devil and you’ve somehow failed to have enough faith.

Not true. God is sovereign. If the Devil, or merely the natural consequences of a sinful world — death — kill you, God let it happen. He let it happen for His own good reason. So why not cut out the middle man and admit that God allows/ordains such things for His own glory? Don’t shirk back from that, eh wot? God doesn’t need any of us to be his public-relations staff. He wants His people to trust Him even when He allows sin and death, knowing full well the reasons that we just can’t know yet.

Unfortunately, to overcome, we have to... have something to overcome. It's a bummer, I know, but it is true. That is why God allows bad things to happen to us: so we can learn how to overcome and grow.

Nothing new here to me, at least not in phrasing. I heartily agree. But haven’t you somewhat contradicted what you just said? What if I don’t “overcome,” Watz? What if I suffer some hideous disease all my life, or persecution? You might already know not to accuse God of evil in such a situation, but don’t incidentally accuse Him of ineptitude, either.

Centuries before any of us arrived late the discussion, theologians have been working out the truth that in some sense, God has “two wills.” They are His “will of command,” what He says must happen, such as the Ten Commandments, and which can be disobeyed; and His “secret will,” including the things He allows for greater good — such as death, rebellion, sin and such.

So when we say “X isn’t God’s will,” be careful. Which “will” are you talking about?

If we say “It was God’s will for someone to die as a martyr,” and we mean God thinks death is a good thing all the way through — that is, part of His will of command — that would be wrong. But indeed it would be right to say that it was God’s will for someone to die as a martyr, if by that we mean that it was His secret will, the kind we cannot know in advance.

By the way, our choices, such as what classes to take, car to purchase or city to move to, are within God’s secret will. How do we know if something is in God’s secret will? It happens. But we cannot know this in advance, and shouldn’t get “stuck” waiting to know His will in advance, which the Bible never encourages. I say this partly because I’ve started a new series on my website about God’s will hunting, and today’s column by a friend of mine includes more perspectives on the “two kinds” of God’s will. Might be worth a read, for more about this way of thinking — we must watch our language about “God’s will” so we don’t either imply, or indoctrinate ourselves, into thinking God is either evil, or else weak and inept and helpless in the face of sin.

Also, let’s not dismiss the Devil, or deny the reality of spiritual warfare in any sense. But based on what Scripture says, it is not the Devil, as nasty as he is, who deserves most of the blame; instead, it is the sin in our own selves we need to be fighting most — though knowing any progress we make is actually God’s Spirit working in us (Philippians 2: 12-13).

TBG, I understand what you are trying to say about still being a sinner, but if you are still a sinner, you are are not going to heaven and you are not saved by the Blood of Christ. This is a difference between being a sinner and being a saved saint (a member of the body of Christ) who sins. Those who have been redeemed by the Blood of Christ are new creations and declared righteous in God's eyes. God cannot call a sinner, someone who's very nature is to sin, righteous. When we are saved, we have a new identity, a new nature, new character, new personality, etc. Would you say those characteristics still qualify you as a sinner?

That being said, we, as saints, still sin. But that does not make us sinners. When we do, Paul, in Romans, tells us that it is not us that sins, but our old nature that sins. It is a two-person internal battle that keeps taking place. What we used to be is at war with what we are now. This is what Romans 7 is all about. So if you feel you are still a sinner, I feel sorry for you. It is important to recognize that we still do sin, after we are saved, but that is not our spiritual nature. And if we are not spiritually inclined to sin, we are not sinners. Think about your identity as a saved Christian. When you do that, you will see that 'sinner' is not part of the definition of a Christian. If your meaning of 'sinner' is 'one who sins' without addressing the sinful nature, then you are fine, but then you have the issue of distinguishing the nature of the unsaved vs the saved.

As for why God allows evil vs ordains it, I will say first and foremost that God is sovereign over all of creation. There is nothing that takes place that is not under his watchful and coordinating eye. But I still cannot justify the notion that God ordains evil. If rebellion and sin were fordained, why is God so frequently grieved by the actions of the Israelites to the point where he desires to destroy them. God does tell Moses in Exodus 32 that he grieved bringing the Israelites out of Egypt and would start over again with Moses. Later, he tells Samuel he was grieved making Saul king of Israel. If this was all pre-ordained, why would God be grieved?

At the same time, we have the passages of Pharoah, where God hardens Pharoh's heart, and Job, where God mentions Job to Satan. We know God raises up nations and brings them down. But does that show that God ordains the actions of evil? We do know that God uses all things for the good of those who love him. Does that mean he arranges even evil things for good? Not to all people. Scripture also does say this: he will not contend with man for all time. It also says that when we sin repeatedly he will give us over to that sin.

Also, there is the issue of covenant. God makes three major covenants in the Bible: with Abraham, with Moses, and with the Body of Christ. In each one, God always holds up his end of the deal but he leaves our end to us. If God specificially ordained every action that takes place and when, what's the point of making the covenant? Afterall he would have already determined if we will seek to keep our end of it or not.

So like the free-will/predestination debate, I see this being closer to being the case. Yes, we do have factors that lead to our decisions. Yes, God is sovereign. But he does leave the choices to us. He has such infinite wisdom that he not only know what we will decide, he sets things up so the choices we make still go to fulfill his plan. We have the choice to participate in his plan, and if we don't, God will use someone else.

An example is Ester. She had the choice to go see the king or not. God's plan was to save his people from Hamman, and Mordecai said it clear. Go and God will save us, but even if you don't God will still save us through some other means. Likewise with Shadrach, Messhach, and Abednego. They knew God could save them, but they also knew that even if he didn't, they would still serve him. God told Satan to check out Job, but God did not silence Job's lips from cursing him.

Historically, King Henry VIII had a lust for women. He severed England's connection to Rome so he could divorce his wife (doesn't matter which one). He was an evil man, whom God allowed his sinful lusts to consume him. This led to the church break-up, but it was this break-up that led to a revival that in turn, eventually brought about the Pilgrims and the founding of the American colonies. This is a case where God does not necessarily ordain Henry VIII's actions but used the situation for his glory. He put a man he knew would be sinful and lustful to the throne of England, so he could orchestrate the breaking from Rome, and set up the hearts of the people to found the US.

So how much does God simply allow, while still orchestrating, or how much does he actually set up is a very complicated question. As TBG indicated, we must know these things: God is good and perfect. God is sovereign and absolutely nothing takes place without his permission or his doing. God uses us (mankind) in the fullfillment of his will. And his will is going to be fullfilled, through us in our success, in spite of us in our failures, and every combination thereof.

TBG, I understand what you are trying to say about still being a sinner, but if you are still a sinner, you are are not going to heaven and you are not saved by the Blood of Christ. This is a difference between being a sinner and being a saved saint (a member of the body of Christ) who sins. Those who have been redeemed by the Blood of Christ are new creations and declared righteous in God's eyes. God cannot call a sinner, someone who's very nature is to sin, righteous.

And yet He has called sinners righteous because of the work of Christ. He can declare us righteous because the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us while our sin has been imputed to Christ on Calvary.

What exactly is a "saint" anyway?

That is what a saint is, a person who is, at one and the same time, just yet sinful.

As Luther famously said, a saint is simil justus et peccator: at the same time justified and a sinner. What is a sinner? One who sins--only a sinner acts on the desire to sin. Everyone acts according to their nature, Fencer. Everything that you do reveals who you really are--and drives you to the foot of the cross.

This is a case where God does not necessarily ordain Henry VIII's actions but used the situation for his glory.

Good gracious! Of course he ordained that Henry VIII would sin--He ordains everything that happens. If it happens, then it means that God had a reason to allow it to happen--nothing happens outside the sovereign will of God. You make it sound like God says, "Well well, here's this sin--oh well, let's make the best of it." No! Don't you know that we are to thank God even for the trouble in our lives?

So like the free-will/predestination debate, I see this being closer to being the case. Yes, we do have factors that lead to our decisions. Yes, God is sovereign. But he does leave the choices to us.

And on what basis do we decide? Either our choices are completely undetermined and like rolling the dice (oh wait, wasn't casting lots a way of discerning God's will in the OT?) or else we make them based on what we value, who we are--and therefore our choices are conditioned. Every moral choice you make tells the world who you want to serve.

Again, freedom is the ability to do what you want--it is not the ability to do what you do not want.

And his will is going to be fullfilled, through us in our success, in spite of us in our failures, and every combination thereof.

Not in spite, no--through. God works His will in and through our failures. Our petty schemes and plans are the means God uses to work His will. Do we know what that is all the time? Of course not--we're not God and He is not obligated to reveal it.

But was Adam responsible for his foreordained sin?

Yes .

TBG

I don't define a saint as the Roman Catholics do. You might find my definition in the paragraph you quoted. I define a 'saint' as someone who has been reborn as an adopted child of God. Each person who is a member of the Body of Christ is a saint. One Biblical example of this is Daniel 10:27 (It might be 7:27.), when Daniel refers to the believers of the Messiah as saints. It reformed terms, a saint is one of the elect.

Your definition of 'sinner' is pretty much what I was expecting and hoping. In this regard, conceptually, we are on the same page. It boils down to this: Christians still sin, and quite often frequently. You define 'sinner' simply as 'one who sins', and I define 'sinner' as 'one who's nature is sin'. But you still have one thing you need to address. Your line of thinking leads to "the only difference between a Christian and a non-Christian is forgiveness". This is not the case. There is so much more to it. How do you deal with the identity difference between before-Christ and after-Christ? If we are just forgiven, what does being reborn mean? I'm simply trying to say that salvation is so much more than that. As Christians, we are simply not inclined to sin in the remotest sense in comparison to before. Yes, we still sin, but when we do, we do it knowingly and willingly. We know that because the Holy Spirit convicts us. If you think you have sinned and you are not being convicted, you are listening to a lie from the enemy. When the Holy Spirit convicts you, he is specific and you know exactly what you did. If you don't have that, it's not from the Holy Spirit and you are listening to an accusation from the enemy. I hope that clears up my position.

I also think you slightly mis-read my example of Henry VIII. That was certainly not the intent of what I was saying. We know that God creates every part of us, including our personalities. Are you saying God created Henry VIII with a propensity to lust after women? I am saying God took a man who had already chosen to take that path and used him to do what he did. God could have easily chosen one of Henry's brothers (I believe he did have brothers), or he could have allowed a coup to overthrow the throne to accomplish it as well. But Henry VIII was already like that before he became King of England. God chose him for that characteristic to fullfill his plan. I was simply saying God did not make Henry VIII lustful, but he took a lustful man to do his will.

I define a 'saint' as someone who has been reborn as an adopted child of God.

And I define a saint as a sinner who has been saved by grace from sin and unto righteousness. Sanctification (the process of becoming holy) has nothing to do with identity. The opposite of a child of God is not a sinner, but an enemy.

If we don't have a sin nature, then how is it that we sin? We do what we do because of what lies within. I don't know about you, but I am forced to cry out for help because of the sin that dwells within me on an hourly (or, if I was realistic, minutely) basis.

There are two kinds of people in the world: repentant sinners and unrepentant sinners.

Your line of thinking leads to "the only difference between a Christian and a non-Christian is forgiveness".

The only difference between repentant and unrepentant sinners is the grace of God.

As Christians, we are simply not inclined to sin in the remotest sense in comparison to before. Yes, we still sin, but when we do, we do it knowingly and willingly.

Yes--and it is therefore much worse. And of course you can sin without being convicted of it--you just haven't been paying attention. Remember also that you are judged not only for what you do, but for what you fail to do. Not only for what you know to do, but for what you don't know to do. Just because I didn't see the speed limit sign doesn't make me any less guilty of speeding.

Again, any time you sin, it proves you were inclined to do so.

Thanks be to God for the redemption found in the blood of Christ, which covers our sin and cleanses us.

TBG