You know what, I will agree to disagree and that is my final answer. I guess I will pay for my stubbornness in my own way. My wish, is to have such an amazing relationship with God that all those things that God said he was like peace, joy and love will be me too. As people say, if you hang around a guy long enough you start to become like him. goes off to have a talk with God

Hey back, Watziznehm.

I’m in strong agreement with 220 on this one: please, listen to the advice given above. These aren’t just opinions from dry or worldly Christians, or even the ramblings of a bunch of like-minded Christians. Rather, you’re seeing here believers with very different views on many issues coming together to agree on this matter of vital importance: not divorcing the intellect from the “spirit.”

This is a false dichotomy that is foreign to Scripture.

Watziznehm, is it possible to have an attitude of spiritual pride in this area? An attitude close to, “Only the really spiritual people, ‘spending time’ with God rather than just reading a dry old book, will become more like Him”?

Let us say I am trying to get to know you, Watz. Perhaps I find you admirable in a lot of ways, and would like to imitate your character. ...

So to do this, I am going to divorce my brain from my “spiritual” understanding. I really don’t care much to read what you actually write about yourself and your views. Instead, I’m going to go off by myself, be Contemplative, and think deeply “spiritual” thoughts about you and how you believe things to be.

How arrogant would it be for me to do such a thing to you!

Also, I cannot help but note this about your recent signoff. What you wrote connotes that “going off to have a talk with God” is first, too spiritual to be intellectual, and secondly, something you alone are doing, and by implication, others here know nothing about. Yes, it is hard to understand someone’s motivations over the internet, much less in person. But I have known people who would say something like “goes off to have a talk with God” and think to themselves how very spiritual they are for having done so, unlike, perhaps, those other people/Christians who “don’t get it.”

It is all well and good to talk about talking with God. Now, how does God expect His people to listen? Should we be so much in tune with Him that we know how to discern His inner leading from our own impulses? What a cruel God this would be, always to put us through whatever mistakes we must make on the way to such an understanding. Fortunately, this is not how God works, leaving us hanging like that.

Such a concept of growing to know Him also over-individualizes one’s walk with Christ. God ordained the Church, the body of believers, His bride, in an organized presence here on Earth, to aid our growth to be like Christ. He gives us not just Himself and “spiritual experiences” for the individual believer, but each other.

Meanwhile, He works in our lives in very physical ways. He gave us our minds for a reason and expects them to use them to understand spiritual “meat.” Just try to understand a book like Romans; this cannot be done in merely some “spiritual” experiential way, but by using one’s redeemed mind! If the intellect is more easily corrupted, or whatever, why did the Spirit inspire the Bible with all of its complex teachings? We find not just emotional encouragements there. We find deep theology. It is meant to appeal to our minds, not just our hearts. God encourages us to think about Him.

As C.S. Lewis said, “God likes matter; He invented it.” This is Biblically defensible because God is not just saving souls, but will save — and will recreate — His material universe, a New Earth, populated by redeemed saints with new physical bodies. To think otherwise is false doctrine, a teaching far from real Christianity and much closer to Platonic ideas of “spirit is good, matter is bad.”

Please, re-read what The Black Glove and Lady Luthien so wisely and graciously said above: God’s final Word is Jesus Christ. He is the Word, and the Holy Spirit’s words are revealed in Him and the written word of God. Read Hebrews. This trumps the prophets. This trumps the angels, the sacrifices, the Law of Moses, everything. All of those are not bad, but are inferior to, and are fulfilled in, the Person of Christ. And this kind of revelation from God is wrapped up in His Word.

If we are the same as them [Biblical saints], then we should have the same privilege now.

So wrong. We are not the same as them. We have it much better, because we are in the New Covenant — a greater movement of the Spirit of God, Who speaks primarily through the Word He inspired, not through personal intuitions or impulses. Even they did not have intuitions or impulses; when God spoke to His appointed prophets and others, there was no doubt it was Him speaking. The assumption that Christians receive direction from some kind of secret Spirit-led intuition must be rejected, and it is unhelpful — so woefully, tragically unhelpful! — to go through life assuming every believer ought to have the same one-on-one communication with God as, for example, the prophet Elijah.

Such a notion “flattens” the Bible. It reduces God’s word to nothing but little Personal Instruction Manual that shows Your Life, rather than God’s magnificent plan of redemption to Israel and to the Church and its people. God is the same yesterday, today and forever. But He has worked in different ways with different people, in different eras and covenants: the Old and New Testaments. Mind you, this takes some intellect to start working out. That’s why the Bible came in words, not emotional impulses. We don’t have it all figured out this side of Heaven, for sure. That’s no excuse not to try.

On intuition— It takes a bit of practice to know when God is speaking to you that way, but after awhile, you will definitely know what is God and what is just your own whims.

Back this up with Scripture, please? I say this not to condemn you, but to challenge you.

Some evangelicals get mad at the Catholics for having a pope, but at least their pope has some theological training. Here you’ve in effect appointed yourself a “pope” of sorts, in effect the only Christian in your mind who decides who knows what God is really saying and what is someone’s own whims. How do you know these are not your whims? This is not Christianity; it’s Gnosticism.

How can anyone know, apart from Scripture, what someone things or believes is and isn’t from God? Personal disagreement? Trust-your-feelings-young-Padawan? You don’t want to get me started on the times I’ve seen “intuition” be so wrong and yet the “intuitive” person so convinced it’s right.

I must kindly ask you now, Watz, how long have you been a Christian? Have you participated in classes on Biblical doctrines at a local church, with the care of God-fearing, gracious and Biblically based pastors and elders? Do you understand that many views of how to seek God’s will can be wrong, especially when it comes to “inner leadings”?

I have read about and personally witnessed how such ideas can lead to wrecked lives, and trust in “leadings,” not in a sovereign God to make His will (in extra-Biblical matters, such as choosing a career) only perfectly known after we have used wisdom from Him, not “leadings”, to decide.

You say you will pay for your “stubbornness” in your own way, and perhaps that is true. But why “give up” so easily? Are you sure this angry response is not just coming from frustration with the well-made points here, or from other sources, points you have not been able to answer? Meanwhile, any wise parents in your life, or spiritual teachers who know the Bible, or perhaps a Sunday School group leader, would be concerned for you to learn the truths in advance and not need to learn the hard way. People have chosen careers, gone on mission trips, gotten married, even committed sins, because they felt the “Lord was leading” this way or that.

Even those here on this little forum, I am sure, care deeply about preventing someone else from doing the same. I believe that is why you are getting some tough questions from members here. It is not because they are trying to prove a point, or less “spiritual.” Rather, I sense care. And for many of the people here, I can vouch for their God-honoring intentions.

Now I must ask you some more tough questions: if your parents or church leaders have ever expressed concern about your beliefs, have you honestly humbled yourself and gone to them to ask why? Rejection of parents’ or leaders’ tough questions about your spiritual belief is not always a sign they are the wrong beliefs, but it can be. If you do not know how these people feel about your views on how to understand God, without the “intellect,” why have you not asked them?

Is part of you afraid or annoyed with what you believe they may say?

Might the subconscious assumption — even a spiritual pride-induced one — be there that they haven’t learned as much as you, they don’t understand what it’s like to truly seek God and grow?

Please think about it. And also remember that people have struggled with such things for two millennia. Your conclusions about how God speaks to people, whether right or wrong, are not new. This should lead to rejoicing and even more reminders that God is all-knowing, and whatever we have from Him is only what we have been given. We can claim credit for nothing.

Please PM me soon if you wish to discuss this further. A friend and I will be starting a series on the web about this. It has been much on my heart and mind — two organs which God expects us to use equally in seeking Him, primarily through the inerrant revelation of His Word.

I wonder if terminology is still playing a part, despite the group's attempts to clarify it. On the one hand, the discussion of "intuition" reminds me of a previous discussion on "discernment." On the other hand, it's not uncommon to claim that "intuition" is a form of intellect. To use, say, Star Trek terms, our conscious brain travels at impulse drive (sub-light) and our intuition travels at warp speed. The faster-than-light ship gets a boost from some additional source (i.e., we aren't born with warp drive engines in our feet). The slower ship (which anticipates, comprehends, and acknowledges landmarks that the faster ship flits past) still gets where it is going. So the question is less about the technique (unless speed is critical) than it is about whether the ship is traveling in the right direction. Who's driving, who's got the map, and particularly Who is giving us the boost.

Something that has not been mentioned is that perhaps Watziznehm is upholding the teachings of his parents, church, and teachers, and they are the ones that the good Dr. & company disagree with, with Watz being the one who happens to be here and so takes the brunt of it. While the thread has been going at a rather zippy pace, I didn't see anything in it to suggest that Watz is a Denomination of One and/or going against his elders at home. Like I said, I could have missed it.

Watz wrote:

If we are the same as them [Biblical saints], then we should have the same privilege now.

...

Dr. E wrote:

We are not the same as them.

Heh, when people argue about this, it's not always because of the definition of either "saint" or "the Bible." It's often because if we were the same as the saints before us, then sooner or later there would be more books in the Bible! That is, people could write more canonical books today.

(Even the books we have now took a lot of wrestling. The deutero-canonical books are different from the apocalyptic books are different from the apocryphal books are different from the rejected-for-good-reason books, et cetera. At that, a lot of Christians won't read the books that were deemed "not up to the level of canon Scripture but are good to read" on the grounds that if it didn't get voted into the Bible, it must not be, um, good to read. They can't tell the difference between a gnostic work and a good historical book, let alone the hard things. So we are left with the forgotten Book of Thecla -- which would make patrio-centrists' heads explode -- and the got-a-lot-of-votes Acts of Peter -- which tells what happened to Simon Magus -- and the write-in campaign Book of Revelation -- which almost didn't make it in when the Eastern Orthodox voted for one of Peter's apocalyptic writings to be made canon instead ... but the Western/Latin Catholics cast more votes for John's apocalypse and that's why it's in the Bible. To this day the Eastern Orthodox churches do not include Revelation in the liturgy. Of course the people can still read it at any time, because it's right there in the Bible. It's there because the more numerous Catholics voted to put it there. So the next time some doomsday-oriented Protestant starts starts pontificating about the Revelation, tell them to hug a Catholic. )

Dr. E wrote:

Some evangelicals get mad at the Catholics for having a pope, but at least their pope has some theological training.

Yes, they have a magesterium too, as the teaching authority of the Church.

An old joke (not a funny one, actually) says that an Orthodox believer heard about the Protestant Reformation and wondered what those Latins were up to now, concluding, "Protestantism is the religion in which every man is his own pope."

An old observation (also not funny) about Protestants who don't call themselves such --"there's no such thing as a hyphenated Christian, so call me a Christian" -- is that such groups elect their "popes" with money. They don't have a magesterium; they have a marketplace. Joel Osteen, Tim LaHaye, and other best-selling preacher-writers make a lot of money; therefore, God must be blessing them; therefore, they must be teaching truth. Occasionally there are preachers who specialize in the same Scriptures, and we end up with (for example) LaHaye booting Hal Lindsey out of the top position, but without examination of why worldly success is a factor in their selection.

Most mainline denominations are somewhere in between. They have annual conferences or something like it, and all the pastors attend regularly to discuss doctrine, policy, and other issues of the day.

Maybe that's something we could look at next: how assorted Christians select their leaders and why they follow. Ideas, whether good or bad, seldom arise in a vacuum.

Something that has not been mentioned is that perhaps Watziznehm is upholding the teachings of his parents, church, and teachers, and they are the ones that the good Dr. & company disagree with, with Watz being the one who happens to be here and so takes the brunt of it.

Good point. And if Watziznehm had also mentioned conscience as well as intuition I would have been more forthcoming in his defence. You know what conscience is: that little voice in our heads which tells us that we have thought, said or done the wrong thing. Whilst the Bible is the best authority on what we believe as Christians, in the perfection of God and his redemption of his creation by the sacrifice of his only son, Jesus Christ, the Bible's writers were not, themselves, perfect, nor did they know more than the current state of knowledge at their time of writing. Moses, great leader that he was, angrily lost his temper. St Paul and St Peter did their best in the name of Jesus Christ, but never claimed to be perfect, humbly acknowledging their shortcomings. Jesus, himself, warned against taking even the Torah too literally, such as what keeping the Sabbath as a day of rest might entail.

So the next time some doomsday-oriented Protestant starts starts pontificating about the Revelation, tell them to hug a Catholic. )

One thing I noticed about some more extreme Protestants that hugging a Catholic was about the last thing they would want to do. I've read books in which the Catholic Church was equated with the 'w***e of Babylon' mentioned in Revelations.

Watziznehm, is it possible to have an attitude of spiritual pride in this area? An attitude close to, “Only the really spiritual people, ‘spending time’ with God rather than just reading a dry old book, will become more like Him”?

Let us say I am trying to get to know you, Watz. Perhaps I find you admirable in a lot of ways, and would like to imitate your character. ...

So to do this, I am going to divorce my brain from my “spiritual” understanding. I really don’t care much to read what you actually write about yourself and your views. Instead, I’m going to go off by myself, be Contemplative, and think deeply “spiritual” thoughts about you and how you believe things to be.

How arrogant would it be for me to do such a thing to you!

Also, I cannot help but note this about your recent signoff. What you wrote connotes that “going off to have a talk with God” is first, too spiritual to be intellectual, and secondly, something you alone are doing, and by implication, others here know nothing about. Yes, it is hard to understand someone’s motivations over the internet, much less in person. But I have known people who would say something like “goes off to have a talk with God” and think to themselves how very spiritual they are for having done so, unlike, perhaps, those other people/Christians who “don’t get it.”

Okay, first of all I want to know what you mean by saying the word 'divorce'. If you meant what I think you did, I was not saying that exactly. I didn't mean that we are to kiss are brains goodbye. However, I did mean that God speaks through our spirits first. Once we have... what is the word... a revelation, then we can take it to our brains and it will make sense. Also, sometimes there are some things about God that don't make any sense at all. What would become of us then if we didn't have a spirit that could simply trust him, no questions asked?

Second of all, I am NOT spiritually arrogant. I was going to talk to God because I like to, not because I think I'm more spiritual than you.

Such a concept of growing to know Him also over-individualizes one’s walk with Christ. God ordained the Church, the body of believers, His bride, in an organized presence here on Earth, to aid our growth to be like Christ. He gives us not just Himself and “spiritual experiences” for the individual believer, but each other.

No it doesn't. You see, it is our own experience of God that becomes our testimony to other people about what God is like. We then become constantly talking to people about are personal walks with God. That is totally exiting.

If we are the same as them [Biblical saints], then we should have the same privilege now.

So wrong. We are not the same as them. We have it much better, because we are in the New Covenant — a greater movement of the Spirit of God, Who speaks primarily through the Word He inspired, not through personal intuitions or impulses. Even they did not have intuitions or impulses; when God spoke to His appointed prophets and others, there was no doubt it was Him speaking. The assumption that Christians receive direction from some kind of secret Spirit-led intuition must be rejected, and it is unhelpful — so woefully, tragically unhelpful! — to go through life assuming every believer ought to have the same one-on-one communication with God as, for example, the prophet Elijah.

Such a notion “flattens” the Bible. It reduces God’s word to nothing but little Personal Instruction Manual that shows Your Life, rather than God’s magnificent plan of redemption to Israel and to the Church and its people. God is the same yesterday, today and forever. But He has worked in different ways with different people, in different eras and covenants: the Old and New Testaments. Mind you, this takes some intellect to start working out. That’s why the Bible came in words, not emotional impulses. We don’t have it all figured out this side of Heaven, for sure. That’s no excuse not to try.

On the contrary, if God can actually speak through our spirits, then the Bible comes to life. It, first of all, becomes a testimony of how so many people had encounters and relationships with God. God literally shows off in his word all his ingenuity and how he had relationships with people, helping them out of all there difficult circumstances. Also, the Bible suddenly becomes an example of all that we can become. Jesus didn't come to earth just to save us from sin. He also came to show us for a brief moment in time how our God wants to relate to us. Every way that God related to Jesus is also possible for us. Of course in order for you to believe that you have to believe that Jesus was a man, but that is a different subject.

On intuition— It takes a bit of practice to know when God is speaking to you that way, but after awhile, you will definitely know what is God and what is just your own whims.

Back this up with Scripture, please? I say this not to condemn you, but to challenge you.

Some evangelicals get mad at the Catholics for having a pope, but at least their pope has some theological training. Here you’ve in effect appointed yourself a “pope” of sorts, in effect the only Christian in your mind who decides who knows what God is really saying and what is someone’s own whims. How do you know these are not your whims? This is not Christianity; it’s Gnosticism.

Well the only way I can back up what I said is by a scripture that says are spirits are God's candle or light which he uses to illuminate what he is saying.

The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord, searching all the inward parts of the belly. Proverbs 20:27

I can also prove it from my own experience. Once, while at a family reunion, I was reading the Bible. At the reunion lots of people were getting sick with a terrible kind of flu. After I read a certain passage in the bible all of a sudden an inner intuition of whatever interpreted it and told me that I wouldn't get sick. I knew it was God, I can't tell you how, but I did. The words in the text were completely out of context with getting healed and such things, but still I knew that I wouldn't get sick. Interestingly enough I didn't get sick, nor did my Mom. On the other hand, over half of the camp got sick. God spoke to me. Sure I was reading the bible, but if he hadn't spoken to me in that inner way, I wouldn't have known that he promised me I wouldn't get sick.

I must kindly ask you now, Watz, how long have you been a Christian? Have you participated in classes on Biblical doctrines at a local church, with the care of God-fearing, gracious and Biblically based pastors and elders? Do you understand that many views of how to seek God’s will can be wrong, especially when it comes to “inner leadings”?

I have read about and personally witnessed how such ideas can lead to wrecked lives, and trust in “leadings,” not in a sovereign God to make His will (in extra-Biblical matters, such as choosing a career) only perfectly known after we have used wisdom from Him, not “leadings”, to decide.

I have been a Christian for 11 years. No, I haven't been to classes on Biblical doctrine as you put it, but I have had some experiences of God and have heard tales of other peoples experiences of God that push me to not stop short of that.

You say you will pay for your “stubbornness” in your own way, and perhaps that is true. But why “give up” so easily? Are you sure this angry response is not just coming from frustration with the well-made points here, or from other sources, points you have not been able to answer? Meanwhile, any wise parents in your life, or spiritual teachers who know the Bible, or perhaps a Sunday School group leader, would be concerned for you to learn the truths in advance and not need to learn the hard way. People have chosen careers, gone on mission trips, gotten married, even committed sins, because they felt the “Lord was leading” this way or that.

No, I don't find them hard questions. To me everything is plain and clear. You see, at the moment I have one point of view on this subject and the rest of you have another. To each of us, the opposing parties arguments seem false. I don't think that you have given good arguments to support your opinion because of what I have experienced myself. You think that my arguments are false because you think that that experience it false. I am of course exasperated because I see that if we go on at this rate, nothing will really change. In other words, I realize that my point won't reach your top floor unless God actually puts it there or visa versa. It proves my point that God works intuitively and only by that way will this truth hit home. Each opinion won't be true unless God corrects us. That is why I stepped down. There is really no use in continuing this debate on an intellectual level because it just won't work.

Now I must ask you some more tough questions: if your parents or church leaders have ever expressed concern about your beliefs, have you honestly humbled yourself and gone to them to ask why? Rejection of parents’ or leaders’ tough questions about your spiritual belief is not always a sign they are the wrong beliefs, but it can be. If you do not know how these people feel about your views on how to understand God, without the “intellect,” why have you not asked them?

Is part of you afraid or annoyed with what you believe they may say?

Might the subconscious assumption — even a spiritual pride-induced one — be there that they haven’t learned as much as you, they don’t understand what it’s like to truly seek God and grow?

My parents and spiritual leaders know full well what my beliefs are. They agree with me. I'm not spiritually arrogant over them. That is one thing at least I can fully claim for myself. I aspire to have the relationship they have with God for myself. I hold them up rather than look down on them. Further more, I don't look down on you. I wanted to share a concept so that you could come to know God in that way too. If you don't however, he will love you just as he loves everyone else. Reversibly, if I'm out to lunch, then he loves me too and will do everything in his power to get my mind changed. In order for that to happen however, I refuse to take just your word for it, but God's himself, even if that occurs in heaven.

So there you go, I'm still as stubborn as ever. I hope however, that this post will give you a little of my point of view. That it isn't just words, but that I and people around me have had experiences of such as I talk about.

Wow, that was a long post! I think I will have to stop there for now. Sorry to The Old Maid and WWW if you are offended.

~Watziznehm

Hey back, Watz!

It was fun to read your whole response. I'm writing this from an airport, actually, so I don't have time to say much more. But surely you know that for any Experience you have, someone else can come up with an Experience to match it. That's what I meant when I said you had in effect appointed yourself "pope": it's a default exalted view of your own spiritual Experience, at the expense of someone else's, by which you are making spiritual "judgments" and "discernments." Dangerous ground, my friend.

Again: any Experience you can cite, someone else can match it.

I once had a guy tell me to my face that he knew Cain was actually the result of a union between Eve and the Devil. How did he know this? His Experience. Now, try proving it's wrong. Is Experience a trump card?

Again: any Experience you can cite, someone else can match it.

Do check into some materials about Biblical doctrine. This is not optional for Christian growth in grace and holiness; it is vital! You will find that the testimony of God's Word itself, and secondly church history and many thousands of believers before you, proves its spiritual worth so much more than subjective Experiences that ignore the Bible's clear context.

Second of all, I am NOT spiritually arrogant. I was going to talk to God because I like to, not because I think I'm more spiritual than you.

Dude. I must admit, this makes me laugh. We all struggle with spiritual and every other kind of arrogance! If you're convinced you don't, well, that results in a bit of an Emperor Has No Clothes phenomenon to others. Also, do check to make sure you're not being proud of your perceived humility -- which, of course, defeats the whole point.

However, I did mean that God speaks through our spirits first. Once we have... what is the word... a revelation, then we can take it to our brains and it will make sense. Also, sometimes there are some things about God that don't make any sense at all. What would become of us then if we didn't have a spirit that could simply trust him, no questions asked?

Again, what do you mean by "spirit" here? Is is just this emotional thing that is a bit indefinable? That's generally what I've found people to mean. The trouble with emotion is that it's a bit tied to your body, as any good psychologist could tell you. Plenty of people can have "spiritual experiences", not just Christians. There are mystics in every religion, not to mention the drugs you can take to get such an experience.

As for revelation--it's over. Revelation is finished in Scripture until the end. Can we expect to have the same gift of revelation given to us as was to the Apostles? No, because there are no apostles today. It would be arrogant of us to assume that our "spiritual experience" (whatever that is) is of equal value to theirs.

You see, it is our own experience of God that becomes our testimony to other people about what God is like.

No. I can't say "I have had this experience therefore you should believe"--that's just nonsense because the person can just say "Well that's nice for you, but the reasoning doesn't follow. Have a nice life." That's not giving a reason for the hope that is within you--that's appealing to warm-fuzzies that the other person doesn't have and therefore cannot relate to.

On the contrary, if God can actually speak through our spirits, then the Bible comes to life. It, first of all, becomes a testimony of how so many people had encounters and relationships with God.

You're not understanding the big picture here--it's not about how we can "experience God" (whatever that means--I'm not even sure you can define it) but about how God has worked His purposes in history. It is to tell us who God is and what He requires of us. It is also to show how God has given us the means to a relationship to Him in the person and work of Christ, our great high priest and the only mediator between God and man. Only a perfect blood sacrifice offered by a perfect high priest could atone for sins--and both were found in the person of Jesus Christ, who was both God and man.

Every way that God related to Jesus is also possible for us. Of course in order for you to believe that you have to believe that Jesus was a man, but that is a different subject.

No--he didn't need a mediator because He was God incarnate. I do believe He was a man, just as we are, but He was also fully God.

As it says in the creed:

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Christ was not merely a man--He is the man. The God-man. Immanuel--God with us.

I can also prove it from my own experience.

That's not proof, that's anecdote. For it to be proof, you would have to back it up with Scripture. If it's not pointing you back to the Word, then it's not of God.

There is really no use in continuing this debate on an intellectual level because it just won't work.

Why don't you try using some Scripture, or at least Scriptural allusions, as I have done? Seems to me that you're relying pretty heavily on your own intuition.

Reversibly, if I'm out to lunch, then he loves me too and will do everything in his power to get my mind changed. In order for that to happen however, I refuse to take just your word for it, but God's himself, even if that occurs in heaven.

Tell me--how do you know that you are saved? Have you really been down and faced the depth and enormity of your sin? Have you understood the depth of a grace that would condescend to love and save such a wretch as you?

I have been there--I have seen my own sin and it was disgusting. Then God pointed me to the assurance of the Gospel--that I didn't have to earn favor with Him because the righteousness of Christ has been given to me. Now I am free and able to live a life before the face of God among the people of God--the Church. How do I know this? From the Scriptures.

I wanted to share a concept so that you could come to know God in that way too.

Again, I would like you to define what you mean by this--what is "spirit" as you mean it? I can't grasp the concept unless the terms are clearly defined.

I hope however, that this post will give you a little of my point of view. That it isn't just words, but that I and people around me have had experiences of such as I talk about.

My friend, maybe someday you will learn that not all points of view are equally valid. Experiences mean nothing unless they illustrate a real tangible truth. Otherwise, it's just feelings, which can be induced medically. If what I was looking for was experience, I could do drugs. I am looking for truth--absolute, relatable, and applicable. That "true truth" is found in the Scriptures--God's revelation to man. Do you want to experience God? Read the Scriptures. Do you want to believe in the living Christ? Read the Scriptures.

You want answers? God doesn't always give answers, but, as Job discovered, He gives Himself. And where can we always find God? In the Scriptures.

TBG

Okay, define spirit. Well, how do you think of God? As a spirit perhaps? Well I think of myself as a spirit who has a soul and lives in a body.

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:... So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him. Genesis 1:26,27

See, we have a spirit just as God is a spirit because we are made in his image.

Before I go any further on this discussion I want you to come up with some Scriptures for me. First of all, I want you to come up with three scriptures that directly say that we are to be led by scriptures, one of them being Jesus himself talking. I say three because on important matters God repeats himself (He only said that Jesus was coming about 180 times), so for you to find three scriptures that directly say that should be a cinch. As for me, I have all three scriptures lined up to prove my point, you have rejected them, but I still have them.

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Romans 8:14

The Spirit itself [Himself] beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God. Romans 8:16

The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord, searching all the inward parts of the belly. Proverbs 20:27

Second of all, I want you to find me a scripture that directly says that revelation has come to an end. That's news to me. It must have been news to people in the Bible when "that dramatic event occurred".

Here is my scripture supporting my argument that revelation will NEVER come to an end.

Now as I looked at the living creatures, behold, a wheel was on the earth beside each living creature with its four faces. The appearance of the wheels and their workings was like the color of beryl, and all four had the same likeness. The appearance o their workings was, as it were, as wheel in the middle of a wheel. When they moved, they went toward any one of the four directions; they did not turn aside when they went. As for their rims, they were so high they were awesome; and their rims were full of eyes, all around the four of them. Ezekiel 1:15-18

The key in this passage is that the wheels are covered with eyes. What if every eye represents a truth about God? In other words, if true, we will never reach the end of God and we will never reach the end of our personal revelation of God.

I say the word "directly" in all this because it would be all very well for you to say that a dramatic event like Jesus dying on the cross was the turning point and that no revelation occurred after that or that after the Bible was written then all of a sudden people should start looking to it for direction, but unless you have some direct passages to back your statement up, then you can't say that, now can you? I've attempted to back myself up with scripture, now I challenge you to completely knock me out with your scriptural passages.

Ok, so the Spirit is that part of us which is non-material, very good. Now, explain to me why this part of man is not the intellectual part. Some have even said that we commune with God through intellection (though this may be going a bit far).

As for texts, need you even ask? "Thy word is a lamp unto my feet and a light to my path," says the Psalmist.

As for Christ, what was His response to the temptations of Satan? He went to the Scriptures. Throughout His ministry, Christ referenced and pointed back to the Scriptures as if to say, "You idiots, haven't you been listening all this time?"

Also, if Scripture is "God-breathed" (1 Tim 4:12), ought we not to be led by it?

Frankly, I'm a bit surprised that you even ask this, and it reveals a very selective knowledge of Scripture.

Second of all, I want you to find me a scripture that directly says that revelation has come to an end. That's news to me. It must have been news to people in the Bible when "that dramatic event occurred".

What of the closing words of Revelation where the Evangelist says that the Scriptures are complete--this means no new revelation as such. May God move in people's hearts? Yes, but they are then to rely on the written word. What is it about this that gets you? Why do you refuse to listen to Scripture and sound reason?

The key in this passage is that the wheels are covered with eyes. What if every eye represents a truth about God? In other words, if true, we will never reach the end of God and we will never reach the end of our personal revelation of God.

Exactly how did you draw this conclusion? Not only did you pick a passage of obscure imagery, but you have given me no good reason to interpret it this way. Just what kind of interpretation are you using?

Again, I think you're relying on emotion and "religious experience" here, not on Scripture. If we do not stand on the rock-solid true truth of the Scriptures, then what do we stand on? Religious experience? Buddhists can say as much.

At some point, Watz, you're going to have to ask yourself why you believe what you believe. I hope it's because you believe God's revelation of Himself in the Scriptures. If not, then you are on shaky ground, my friend.

Grace and peace,

TBG

"Our spirit is our intellect!?" Our intellect has to do with our brains.

The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord, searching all the inner parts of the belly. Proverbs 20:27

To my knowledge, the belly isn't anywhere near the brain.

What! I don't see any knockout punches in there. You first talk about the word. Well, I think of the word as God. Something about "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God." Or something to that extent.

Second of all, I would like to point out the that in the little brush Jesus had with Satan, Satan also used the scriptures. If Jesus didn't have an inner knowing about what the truth was, he could have been very easily flabbergasted at the Devils reasoning.

I looked up 1 Tim 4:12 and I'm not quite sure that is the scripture you were going for. All I found was a passage that came to about the same thing as "serve God with everything".

As for the book of Revelation this is what is says in the NKJ.

For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues the are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation18-19

Are you sure that is talking about the end of the Bible. I thought it could very easily also refer to just the book of Revelation and the prophecies therein. Maybe God told you by your spirit?

As for my little proof of there being endless revelation I left out one VERY important part about the Four Living Creatures. They circle the Throne of God.

And above the firmament over their heads was the likeness of a throne... Ezekiel 1:26

What are all the eyes for but to observe God? Because there are so many eyes it is logical to assume that there are quite allot of things to observe about God. In other words, there are quite allot of revelations to be had. I'm not saying that everything hasn't been written down. I am saying that each of us are on a personal journey of discovering God an therefore a personal journey of revelation. It's not like it is a new thing that hasn't been discovered before. It is just a new thing to us because we have never discovered it before. Therefore, it is a revelation to us because, before, it was completely foreign to us.

Lastly I want to challenge you.

Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. John 14:11

does your view point on Jesus allow you to even hope to do greater works than he did (i.e. healing people and performing miracles) or do you view Jesus in such a way that makes it impossible for you to do that? You see, if you believe that Jesus was 100 % man, but filled with the Spirit of God and who knew how to hear from his Father in heaven, then it is possible for us to do what he did. All we need is the Spirit of God too. Check, Jesus died so that we could have the Spirit. If, however, you believe that Jesus was supernatural as well as a man, then for us to strive to do what is did is useless because we will never get there. We might as well sit around and utter anecdotes. We might as well go somewhere and shoot the breeze. You see, all of our efforts will be useless because there is nothing left for us to become. All of a sudden all we have to look forward to is dying. I don't want that and I don't think you do either.

Okay, Watz. Let's talk a little bit first about this "experience" you keep mentioning.
Let's say I based my faith essentially on existential, spiritual experience. I could say anything I want, I could claim that God has told me anything I want, I could claim that God has shown me anything. Anything would go. That's like so many religions out there, and it shouldn't be so with Christianity.

We have to believe that Christ is the final Word of God! Take a look at Matthew 17- the Transfiguration.
"While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!" "- Matt. 17:5

The Word of God is final! The Father wants us to listen to Jesus, how can you say that our faith is based on experience? How can you say that there is further revelation than what God has already revealed to us in His Holy Scriptures? He has revealed himself to us through the Scriptures- that was the way that He chose- and through them He has revealed everything His people need to know. Why do you need more? Why do you need experience? That's not true Christianity. Christianity needs to be grounded on the truth God has given us! True, there is experience, but it is only true and right if it is grounded in the Word of God. If it points us to it!

Read Hebrews. It talks about the finality of Jesus. He is the true and better Moses, the Great High Priest etc...
Here is what we ultimately need to know, friend:
Man sinned and was exiled from the Garden, God promised a Messiah that would come to deliver us from sin and bring us back into the Garden, the Messiah has come, namely Christ, and he is coming back again SOON! Those who put their trust and faith in his work will be saved from judgement, and once again will be brought into the Garden, namely Heaven, but this time it will never end.

That's it, friend. That's what we need to know. What further revelation do we need? What kind of an experience do we need? The Scriptures are final and infallible. We need to base our faith on it, and we need to test everything, making sure that it lines up with the truth God has revealed to us. We can't base it on experience. Anything does not go. It's God's truth, revealed to us finally in the Scriptures. The Word of God has come, and he is coming again. Boom! The end.

Peace,
~Lady Luthien.

p.s I would highly recommend you listening to this teaching series online by Lee Irons (and anyone who is reading this)
http://www.upper-register.com/mp3s.html
They are the fourth subtitle down: "The Unfolding Mystery"
It goes through all of the Bible- all of Redemptive History (The OT and NT), and Irons shows us how the whole Bible points us to Christ.
If you think the Bible is a dry book, then think again and listen to these. There is so much richness in the OT that points us to the coming Messiah, I was absolutely blown away, and still am being while I continue to listen.

If you will refer you back to my last post you will see that I didn't deny that everything has been written down. In other posts, I did say that God wants us to have a relationship with him via our spirits and that our journey of discovery of him is a personal journey of revelation. We will find truths about God that have been known to others, but as yet, has been unknown to us. Like I said, a personal journey of revelation. Therefore, none of us will ever know something that hasn't already been true. But we will know things that we ourselves didn't know was true.

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:...
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him.
Genesis 1:26,27

See, we have a spirit just as God is a spirit because we are made in his
image.

Our spirit is not the same as His though. We are created beings; God was created by no one. He always has been and always will be. He made us in His image, yes, but that doesn't put us on His level.

First of all, I want you to come up with three scriptures that directly say that we are to be led by scriptures, one of them being Jesus himself talking.

I'm curious; why is it important that one of these demanded Scriptures be a direct quote from Christ during His earthly ministry? Are you elevating the "words in red" above the rest of Scripture? If so, why? All of Scripture is God-breathed — red ink or black.

Second of all, I want you to find me a scripture that directly says that revelation has come to an end. That's news to me.

TBG linked, but here's a knockout punch for ya

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

Are you sure that is talking about the end of the Bible. I thought it could very easily also refer to just the book of Revelation and the prophecies therein. Maybe God told you by your spirit?

It is no mistake that God ended the canon of Scripture with a knockout punch like that. The Bible is one book. The warning applies to anyone who would tamper with any of it. Why shouldn't it?

The key in this passage is that the wheels are covered with eyes. What if every eye represents a truth about God?

And what if it doesn't?

The interpretation you are wresting from that passage from Ezekiel is extremely forced. There is nothing in that passage to indicate that that is what it means. Your interpretation just doesn't make sense.

Second of all, I would like to point out the that in the little brush Jesus had with Satan, Satan also used the scriptures. If Jesus didn't have an inner knowing about what the truth was, he could have been very easily flabbergasted at the Devils reasoning.

No, Jesus didn't beat the devil by His "inner knowing." If He did that, He would not have used Scripture right back at the devil. But no! He went back to the Scriptures and showed how the devil was misusing them — using His intellect. His brain!

It isn't so very different from what we are doing here, really. Scripture interprets Scripture. The devil was misinterpreting Scripture for his own ends. Inner knowing had nothing to do with Jesus' answers to Satan, Watz. God's Word had everything to do with those answers!

You see, if you believe that Jesus was 100 % man, but filled with the Spirit of God and who knew how to hear from his Father in heaven, then it is possible for us to do what he did. All we need is the Spirit of God too.

No, that's not exactly the case. Jesus was 100% man and 100% God. Are we 100% God in addition to being 100% human? No, we are not. This isn't about doing what Jesus did as far as miracles, being some kind of spiritual superhero. This is about understanding Who Christ is.

What denomination/church do you belong to, Watz?

Okay, I realize that I have made some big errors in communicating my thoughts. I'm not saying that there is some mystic truth out there that cannot be obtained in the Bible. Yes, I know, you all thought I was saying that. What I am saying is that I am dreaming the dream that God wants to have a personal relationship with everyone and simply knock there socks off with experiences of him. I base this dream on three verses.

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Romans 8:14

The Spirit itself [Himself] beareth witness with our spirit , that we are children of God. Romans 8:16

The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord, searching all the inward parts of the belly. Proverbs 20:27

On the first verse, I dare to hope that God wants to lead me by his Spirit, of course it will line up with scripture, but still, lead me by his Spirit. On the second verse, I dare to imagine that God's spirit actually talks to my spirit. On the third verse, I dare to wonder that God illuminates his word via our spirit.
If you all think that the Spirit is the word, if you all think that our spirit is our intellect, if you all think that the intellect should be the way the word is interpreted, then fine, go ahead and think that. As for me, I can't be satisfied with that. You can call me arrogant all you want, but I dare to believe that God wants to have a personal relationship with me. You say that experience is nothing, well, I say that I'm not satisfied with my God experience and want more. If there isn't any more, then so be it, but I'm not convinced as such.
Lastly, I have to say that I base what I am saying on faith. That is why I'm so stubborn. I'm a creature who can't be reasoned with. Some part of me knows what I say, that God wants to have a one-on-one personal relationship with everyone, is true, and no amount of reason will persuade me otherwise.
As for my church denomination, I refuse to answer on the grounds of incriminating myself.

Watziznehm, I think I see where you're coming from. But what everyone is trying to tell you is that while God does use dreams, and visions, and subjective experiences, they must all be weighed against the objective truth of His Word. The enemy uses subjective experiences too.