Watz: did you mean something like "God is Truth and the Bible is true/filled with truths"? The phrase "instead of" makes it sound more like they can't both be be truthful/true, when it sounds like other parts of your post were talking about hierarchy and revelation. Of course I could be misunderstanding you too!

There's also a few verses to the effect that the Bible is written for God's people, so of course they're going to get more out of it.

I've heard a lot of people who don't take all of the the Bible literally (i.e. most passages=literal, some passages=symbolic) will nevertheless hold it up as an authority on the grounds that it is "the collected wisdom of the church."

Watziznem, how can you be sure that it is God guiding your interpretation? The way you're thinking sounds an awful lot like Barth's idea that the Scriptures are not inerrant, but become the word of God when He speaks through them. In this way of thinking, the historical facts don't matter as long as the theological truth is retained. But what about when our thinking changes? Aren't the narratives meant to be demonstrative proof of the theological truths?

Even Barth himself eventually realized this saying,

Do you want to believe in the living Christ? We may believe in him only if we believe in his corporeal resurrection. This is the content of the New Testament. We are always free to reject it, but not to modify it, nor to pretend that the New Testament tells something else. We may accept or refuse the message, but we may not change it.

The Scriptures are the word of God--the only infallible and inerrant rule of faith and practice. We are free to accept or to reject them and their teachings, but we may not change them.

Of course no one takes the Bible completely literally, else our nativity sets would contain Mary, Joseph, Jesus, and a dragon (Rev 12). Indeed, apocalyptic passages like Ezekiel and Revelation are chock-full of symbolism and symbolic imagery that makes them hard to interpret.

TBG

Hmmm, no, I didn't mean that the Bible is untruthful. Actually, the Bible serves two purposes. One: the Bible is an amazing testimony of people and nations having amazing encounters with God. Two: it is a tool by which God can use to speak his truths into our lives. You see, by itself, the Bible is just an amazing testimony of people walking with God and encountering him. There is more though (isn't god a genius at multitasking ), God also uses the Bible to show us his truths.

My main point was, when we read the Bible, we should always be asking God what does this mean instead of looking at it through our own intellect. You see, God doesn't work via our rules. He works by his rules. Unfortunately, very often, we interpret the Bible based on what we see in our world. The thing of it is, the Bible isn't about our world, it is about God's! Big pause, right here! Have you ever noticed that the Bible is the original and only non-fiction fantasy story? You see, it is about another world, another medium. That is what all fantasy stories don't go away from. Unfortunately, most fantasy stories are fiction. God's world, however, is REAL! Okay, back on topic. God wants to have a relationship with us, and he wants his Bible to be, first off, an amazing testimony of how other people had relationships with him, and second off, the tool he uses to reveal, as yet, undiscovered truths to us so that we can live better and have better encounters with him.

No--the Bible is the Word of God--God-breathed, as the Apostle says. The purpose of the Scriptures is to show us first who God is, and second who we are and what our response to God. It is not simply a book of stories: it tells the story that ought to define us. It tells us what we ought to believe about God and what He requires of us.

You speak of interpreting the Scriptures by letting God interpret, yet how do we get God's interpretation? In the Scriptures. In fact, speaking of us "interpreting the Scriptures" is a bit misleading--the Scriptures should interpret us. We ought to see the world in light of Scripture and Scriptural teaching. The Bible is the means by which we know God and encounter God because it is where He has revealed Himself to us.

TBG

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:14

The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God. Romans 8:16

the Spirit of man is the lamp of the Lord, Searching all the inner depths of his heart. Proverbs 20:27

I find all of those scriptures contradicting you. The first one reads, "For as many as are led by the SPIRIT of God, these are sons of God." The key word is Spirit! God reveals himself to us through his Spirit! The second one says just that. The third one simply says that our Spirit is God's place where he talks to us. Yes, it is true, God actually talks to us. Most often he doesn't say anything, he just gives us a sort of intuition.

Proof of all of this I'm afraid lies between you and God but there is one logical and obvious proof. How could the people who wrote the Bible write it, if the Bible is the only way that God reveals himself to us?

How could they have written it if the only truth that could be found was derived in what they wrote? That makes no sense at all. No, I tell you, God is the only 'thing' that truth comes from.

Actually, it makes perfect sense. Truth can only come from God, therefore the writers of Scripture were able to write truth thanks to the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. This is where the scoffs of people who say, "How can you believe a book written by a bunch of humans?" falls flat. It didn't come out of their heads...though it came through them in a way, hence the preservation of tone and style in the different books. Isn't it amazing God conveyed truth in that way? The fact that He put His words in writing, in particular literary forms and styles, reminds me of how He later became a particular human being.

The key, therefore, is not the BIBLE! The key is GOD!

I think we are saying the same thing in different words (a "conflict" not uncommon to theological debates, lol)--note my Matthew 5 verse.

It is also interesting to note that as much as we venerate and uphold Scripture, one day it won't be needed anymore. But God always will be. I remember reading a Christian philosopher in a philosophy class, who reasoned that religion--such as humans make it, even things like the Bible and emotions we experience in worhsip--are simply symbols, given to us to bring us as close to God as we can come in this life.

I find all of those scriptures contradicting you. The first one reads, "For as many as are led by the SPIRIT of God, these are sons of God." The key word is Spirit! God reveals himself to us through his Spirit!

And where has the Spirit spoken most clearly? In the Scriptures. God reveals Himself primarily in Scripture--not in some warm-fuzzy sentimental feeling, but in the True Truth of the Scriptures, which are God-breathed. The word "breath" here means, you guessed it, Spirit.

The third one simply says that our Spirit is God's place where he talks to us.

That interpretation is such a stretch--what it's referring to is how God knows our spirits.

How could the people who wrote the Bible write it, if the Bible is the only way that God reveals himself to us?

They were given the spirit of God in order to write the Bible. The very words of Scripture were chosen by God Himself to communicate Himself in a precise manner. Again, the Scriptures (1 Tim 4:12) are God-breathed: given by the Spirit--literally inspired--infused with the Spirit.

TBG

@Kotwcs: Glad it all makes sense. As for saying the same thing over but different words, that is a necessary thing because some people just won't get something when worded as certain way while to others it will make perfect sense.

@TBG: What you are saying is that the people wrote the Bible were given the Spirit of God to write the Bible. That is absolutely true, but why can't we, everyone, be given the Spirit of God? I was under the impression that ever since the Cross our lives were supposed to be better than before the Cross. How is our lives better with JUST A BOOK than with the Spirit of God? Jesus didn't just die to save us from sin. He also died so that all people, instead of just prophets and kings, could receive his Spirit. THAT is the good news! Jesus dying for our sins was just necessary, it had to be done or we would all be doomed. However, God, in his goodness and community nature, cleared the way fore all people to receive HIM. The curtain HAS been torn and the way IS open!

As for God communicating with us via fuzzy feelings, most of the time that isn't true. Most of the time it is intuition (i.e. an inner conscience or knowing).

But Watziznehm, we all do receive God's Spirit just as the Old Testament saints did. The difference is that we know God better because we have His self-revelation in the person and work of Christ, which is revealed in the Scriptures. The Scriptures are not just a book: they are self-revelation of God. They tell us what we are to believe about God and what God requires of us in response to His work in time and space.

The only way that a person would choose to follow God is if he has been born again (regenerated) of water and the Spirit. The inward work of the Spirit is to turn us toward God as He has revealed Himself in His word: the Scriptures. The primary reason why Christ died was to give back to God the honor and glory that sin had stolen from God. The second reason was to save His people from their sins and unto a life of righteousness.

As for intuition--I've found it to be awfully imprecise and faulty. Try relying on intuition in a romance sometime and tell me how it works out . To know in the sense you're talking is to have a rational grounding for belief (there's another kind of knowledge--but that's another subject).

TBG

Yes, and my point was, because the old saints were writing the Bible they needed to have God speak it to them. God breathed, as you put it. Of course, they couldn't hear God speaking to them from the Bible because they were writing it for Pete sake. So, how did God speak to them then? If we are the same as them, then we should have the same privilege now.

On intuition-- It takes a bit of practice to know when God is speaking to you that way, but after awhile, you will definitely know what is God and what is just your own whims.

If we are the same as them, then we should have the same privilege now.

And what do you think the Scriptures are? God's revelation by the Spirit to His people. You expect God to give everyone the same gift? (prophecy--inspiration) How boring is that? Doesn't the Apostle speak of one body and many parts?

On intuition-- It takes a bit of practice to know when God is speaking to you that way, but after awhile, you will definitely know what is God and what is just your own whims.

Here's how I tell the difference: if it's pointing me to Scripture, then it's from God. If it's not pointing me to Scripture, then it's from Satan. We as Christians need to be Word-centered because the Word of God is the primary means by which God reveals Himself. Is this so hard? Intuition will get you nowhere (or worse) unless it is informed and guided by Scripture. We ought to see the world through Scriptural lenses.

TBG

Watziznehm- It seems to me, based on your posts I have been reading, that you are saying that God is the truth, and The Holy Scriptures are not. However, how are we to know God's truth if not through the Holy Scriptures? The Bible is inspired-- God-breathed- the writers were inspired by the Holy Spirit to write what they did. (2 Peter 1:20-21) Therefore, the Scriptures are infallible.

What is the Bible called? The Word of God. Who is the Word? Jesus Christ.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth." - John 1: 1-2, 14

This was the Word! Throughout the whole Old Testament, God promised the Messiah. You can look at it like this: The Old Testament was Promise of Christ, and the New Testament is Fulfillment in Christ.
How are we to know the historicity of the Gospel without the Scriptures? If Christ's life, death and resurrection in fact had not happened, they would mean nothing to Christians! But it did happen! Jesus lived the righteous, perfect life in our place, died the death we should have died, and ROSE AGAIN and saved us! Then, he ascended back into Heaven. How are we to know this without the Scriptures? Without the eyewitnesses who testified to Christ's work? Our faith should not be based on warm fuzzy feelings within us, but based on the truth of the Scriptures, the truth of what Christ has done for us!

How are we to know this magnificent Promise without the Scriptures? How are we to know this magnificent Fulfillment without the Scriptures?
Why would this string of gorgeous pearls- God's Redemptive History, His Unfolding Mystery- be given to us by God if it wasn't necessary for us?

Let's look at some descriptions of the Word by those whom God used to record his word.

-"spiritual food for the hungry"- (Job 23:12)
-"dwelling in me richly" (Colossians 3:16)
-"a lamp for my feet" (Psalm 119:105)
-"more precious than gold" (Psalm 19:10)
-"penetrating my thoughts and attitudes" (Hebrews 4:12)
-"perfect and trustworthy" (Psalm 19:7)
-"renewing my mind" (Romans 12:12)
^
(Know What You Believe by Paul E. Little)

The Scriptures should be so important in our lives as Christians!
"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness." (2 Timothy 3:16)
Martin Luther said he used Scripture as a lighter to kindle the fire in his heart!

~LLuthien

Okay, okay, you guys have convinced me. The Bible is the Word of God! However, I still firmly believe that God communicates with us through our Spirits, not our intellect.

Can you define "Spirit" here? It would seem to me that intellect is very closely connected to Spirit. Maybe it's just my weird scary Presbyterian soul, but all of my most spiritual experiences have involved my intellect in addition to (and possibly more prominently than) my emotions.

TBG

Watz, listen to TBG and LL.

However, I still firmly believe that God communicates with us through our Spirits, not our intellect.

God created our minds and expects us to use them. He speaks to my mind all the time. But how does He do it? Through the Word--literally. He brings to my mind a Bible verse or phrase, frequently KJV.

Yes, God communicates with us through our spirit [not capped ]. But the Spirit of God should inhabit and change every fiber of our being: heart, mind, soul, will, etc. The problem here seems to be that you're divorcing intellect and emotion, mind and heart. It doesn't work that way! God is rational and belief in Him is rational. And the Spirit of God? He works through the Word! You cannot divorce the Spirit and the Word. Intuition is fallible. The Word is not.