We have no idea how long it was between Adam's creation and his eating of the fruit. We know it was about 4000 BC when that took place, simply by adding all the geneologies together (and if there are several generation between each name, that doesn't change anything. We have the numbers from on to the next.).

I’m confused by your statement because of the following footnote in my Bible.

It is now well known that the age of mankind cannot be reckoned in years from the facts listed in genealogies, for there are numerous known intentional gaps in them. For example, as B. B. Warfield (Studies in Theology) points out, the genealogy in Matt. 1:1-17 omits the three kings, Ahaziah, Jehoash, and Amaziah, and indicates that Joram (Matt. 1:8) begat Uzziah, who was his great-great-grandson. The mistaking of compressed genealogies as bases for chronology has been very misleading. So far, the dates in years of very early Old Testament events are altogether speculative and relative, and the tendency is to put them farther and farther back into antiquity.

It sounds like you have a way around the statements in the footnote but I’m not clear on what you mean, so if you could explain a little more I would be grateful.

You will experience the whole college life there, all right. Nobody to do your washing for you. hehe!

Many students take their dirty laundry home on breaks.

Here the HSC can include basic training in different trades and careers, including nursing. These courses are often delivered at nearby TAFE colleges, in co-operation with high schools. Successful completion of these courses can give credit for entry into higher grade TAFE courses in those fields, and in turn successful completion in the highest TAFE courses can give credit into related university courses. Is a high school diploma then the equivalent of an HSC, the ranking of which determines one's ability to get into university?

I’m not 100% sure on this. (If anyone else wants to jump in and help, feel free). A high school diploma shows that one has graduated from high school. It doesn’t show what type of classes or the grades one got. Most training programs (technical colleges, universities, etc.) require transcripts which show a person’s grades in each class s/he took in high school. Grades and classes can make a difference into what program / school a person gets into. Students in high school sometimes have the option of taking classes at a local college or technical college. They can get credit both for high school and their higher education program. That means that they will be able to start at a higher level after graduation. I’m not sure if taking course at an institute for higher education during high school guarantees one for admission into a college or not. The students’ ranking on their transcripts contributes to which schools they can get into. On the transcripts they are only compared to students in the school they graduated from. Many four year colleges look for students in a certain percent, for example the top 15%. To get into four year colleges students also have to get a certain score on a test. The higher the grades are on the transcript and the higher the score on the ACT, SAT, or other test the better chance the student has to get into the school of his/her choice. I’m not sure what happens if a student has low grades on a transcript but a high score on the ACT, SAT, or other test or the other way around. My grades and scores were high enough I didn’t have to worry. Some colleges also offer scholarships based on scores / grades. The better score the higher the aid. Students who want to get a four year degree but can’t get admitted to a four year college can go to a technical college and take general courses there (basic courses that everyone needs to take, usually a writing course, a math course, something in science, something in social studies, etc). They can then try to transfer to a four year college. We also can take Advanced Placement courses at the high school and then take a test to get college credit. I hope this answers your questions.

Great recipe for creation, Shadowlander! You forgot the ending, though. I hope you don’t mind if I write it for you. Feel free to edit it if necessary.
8. Adam and Eve liked what God had done. Satan doesn’t like to see Adam and Eve enjoying the feast, so he convinced Eve that she should become a cook too and try adding that mayonnaise to God’s creation. It looked nice so Eve followed by Adam decided to add it to God’s “meal.”
Well, it didn’t go so well. The roast developed bones that need to be picked out before one can eat. The mayonnaise tainted everything so it didn’t look so nice.
9. Humans have been following Adam and Eve’s recipe for disaster ever since.

(Edit: Owing to ww's post above I excised much of what I wrote previously. I'm not sure it was bad enough to warrant it but I'm not going to take any chances, and I'd like to keep it as G-rated as possible. This is a wacky sort of topic that's difficult to maneuver through and it may help to simply sidestep it altogether and go in a different direction!)

Did you edit something out about Mere Christianity and Lewis’s example of people staring at food? I thought I read it in one of your posts, but now I can’t find it. It is a hard topic to maneuver through and different people have a different idea of what a “G-rating” would be. Anyway I was going to use the quote I can’t find to relate to the following. Food has been a source of temptation from the start and continues to be. Humans tend to have a strong desire for food that goes past the simple need of food for nourishment. I would say for many people that food is one of their major sources of temptation. I wonder if that is a result of the fall. (I’m not saying that food in itself is bad).

I know I’m repeating myself, but I really would like to discuss how to teach children about the Bible and how much they should be told at certain ages. I’m putting the section from another post that relates here. The idea of when kids should be exposed to certain things and how much they should be sheltered also can be apply to the Bible. I was subbing in a four year old preschool room and the children were learning about Moses. The teacher told them that the pharaoh didn’t like little boys and wished they would go away. Then she proceeded to show them the beginning of the Prince of Egypt. It is rated PG and rather violent at times. I sat there fuming because I felt it was inappropriate to show little kids. I know if I had watched it at that age I would have been scared and perhaps crying. On the other hand, I was also mad that she didn’t tell them that pharaoh killed little boys. I don’t believe in sugar coating the Bible either. On Sunday, we watched the Veggie Tales version of Moses at Sunday school (3yr olds – 2nd graders). While it was more appropriate for that age group, I had problems with it too. It soften the story by just having the babies float away on the river, not to mentioned set the story in the old west. Basically, I’m wondering what other people’s opinions are about teaching children stories from the Bible.

Which reminds me of two things. One, is C.S. Lewis unique in referring to the two as "Lord Adam and Lady Eve"? So many people refer to Adam and Eve in almost contemptuous terms because of the Fall. Do other writers refer to them with respect?

I don’t know about other writers, but I agree that many people do not treat them with respect. I love this Lewis quote relating to them: “You come of the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve ... and that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest begger and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor in earth.” It just says it all.

I'm not sure why a G-rating is necessary, give that this is a discussion forum and those under 13 shouldn't be even on here. Also, you can't discuss much of value with a G-rating. Even a PG-rating would be pushing things.

Great recipe for creation, Shadowlander!

Well thank ya! It helped I was actually slow cooking a roast in the kitchen.

You forgot the ending, though. I hope you don’t mind if I write it for you. Feel free to edit it if necessary.
8. Adam and Eve liked what God had done. Satan doesn’t like to see Adam and Eve enjoying the feast, so he convinced Eve that she should become a cook too and try adding that mayonnaise to God’s creation. It looked nice so Eve followed by Adam decided to add it to God’s “meal.”
Well, it didn’t go so well. The roast developed bones that need to be picked out before one can eat. The mayonnaise tainted everything so it didn’t look so nice.
9. Humans have been following Adam and Eve’s recipe for disaster ever since.

This is about right. Plus it appears we're in agreement about mayonaisse being evil. Bonus points!

Did you edit something out about Mere Christianity and Lewis’s example of people staring at food? I thought I read it in one of your posts, but now I can’t find it. It is a hard topic to maneuver through and different people have a different idea of what a “G-rating” would be.

I did have a Lewis quote in there (as well as some other stuff) but after I posted it I saw wisewoman's warning post and opted to just edit all the questionable stuff out. What may seem tame and mild to me might be construed as downright bawdy to someone else and I figured "why take the chance?". I don't have my copy of Mere Christianity handy and Lewis (as always) puts things far more eloquently than I ever could, so I opted to drop it out altogether. And that's as close to that topic as I'm going to get.

I'm not sure why a G-rating is necessary, give that this is a discussion forum and those under 13 shouldn't be even on here. Also, you can't discuss much of value with a G-rating. Even a PG-rating would be pushing things.

I agree, but I can also see why the restriction is in place. Yes, everone in here should be well over the age of 13 but how do you guarantee someone's age here? There's no way to really verify things of this nature and with the exception of the mod areas the whole forum is pretty much free to anyone that wanders in.

Pattertwigs Pal, commentaries can be wrong. A prime example is Job 41 with the descriptions of the Behemoth. Commentaries suggest it was an elephant or a large hippo. Have you seen the tail of an elephant or a hippo? It is certainly not like a cedar tree as the Bible describes. In fact the only known animal that fits the description of a Behemoth is a brachiasaurus (or bronosaurus). That is another reason why God didn't use evolution to create the world. If God used 65 million years to go between dinosaurs and man, how do humans know about them? I'll say more on that later.

Now to answer your question, yes, Hebrew scolars would tend to skip specific people in thier geneologies. But there is a big difference between the geneologies in Matthew and Luke vs the ones in Genesis 5 and 10. In Matthew and Luke, we just have the names and as you mentioned, a few generations between names were skipped. But in Genesis, we have the specific age and the years of the names listed. So what if there were a few generations in between? That doesn't change the numbers. Methuselah lived 187 years before he begat Lamech. If Lamech was a direct son, fine. If there were several generations between Methuselah and Lamech, fine. There were still 187 years between the birth of Methuselah and Lamech. It also says Methuselah lived another 782 years, while Lamech lived 777 years total. Both died very close to the Flood.

In Genesis 10, we have the same format from Noah to Abraham. We know the number of years between each generation. Adding generations in between doesn't change the numbers. Now to really make things interesting, if you take the human population growth rates and work them backwards, you will get single digits about 4400 years ago. The Bible dictates only 8 people survived the Flood. And to add to that historically, the very word in Chinese for "Flood" means "8 people in a boat". We also have biological studies that show that genetics will disentigrate to the point where a species can't survive not much after 10,000 years. The human gene pool has definately not been improving, but decaying. Think about it.

All of Shadowlander's posts about food are making me hungry . Thank God it's Turkey Day. Happy Thanksgiving everyone .

GB

You forgot the ending, though. I hope you don’t mind if I write it for you. Feel free to edit it if necessary.
8. Adam and Eve liked what God had done. Satan doesn’t like to see Adam and Eve enjoying the feast, so he convinced Eve that she should become a cook too and try adding that mayonnaise to God’s creation. It looked nice so Eve followed by Adam decided to add it to God’s “meal.”
Well, it didn’t go so well. The roast developed bones that need to be picked out before one can eat. The mayonnaise tainted everything so it didn’t look so nice.
9. Humans have been following Adam and Eve’s recipe for disaster ever since.

This is about right. Plus it appears we're in agreement about mayonaisse being evil. Bonus points!

Yay! Bonus points! Mayonnaise is evil.

I did have a Lewis quote in there (as well as some other stuff) but after I posted it I saw wisewoman's warning post and opted to just edit all the questionable stuff out.

I’m glad I didn’t just imagine the Lewis quote.

Pattertwigs Pal, commentaries can be wrong. A prime example is Job 41 with the descriptions of the Behemoth. Commentaries suggest it was an elephant or a large hippo. Have you seen the tail of an elephant or a hippo? It is certainly not like a cedar tree as the Bible describes. In fact the only known animal that fits the description of a Behemoth is a brachiasaurus (or bronosaurus). That is another reason why God didn't use evolution to create the world. If God used 65 million years to go between dinosaurs and man, how do humans know about them? I'll say more on that later.

I know commentaries can be wrong. That particular footnote bothered me at the time. Thanks for the clarification. It didn’t occur to me that they were two different types of genealogies. I would be interested in hearing more about dinosaurs and humans. One thing that was drilled into my head in school was that humans and dinosaurs did not live at the same time.

We also have biological studies that show that genetics will disentigrate to the point where a species can't survive not much after 10,000 years. The human gene pool has definately not been improving, but decaying. Think about it.

This is very interesting. My sister and I were talking about gene pool issues not that long ago. We were wondering why it worked for close relations to marry (Sarah and Abraham for example although Adam and Eve’s children would have had to marry siblings too) and now it can have disastrous results. That would seem to support the idea of decay.

P.S. Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

RE: Dinosaurs. The one thing about evolution, dinosaurs, and humans, that really racks my brain is how do we know so much about each one when we were separated by 65 million years. How do we know that a T-Rex's vision was guided by movement? How do we know that a Velociraptor hunts in packs? How do we know all this stuff if there were 65 millions years between us and all we have is the bones? It doesn't add up.

One thing we have to realize is that the word 'dinosaur' didn't exist until 1841. Prior to that, all the creatures we now know today as 'dinosaurs' were known as 'dragons'. And how many dragon legends to we have? Marco Polo reported that Gengis Khan had hired dragon feeders. Nearly every culture exepct for modern-day America (and maybe a few others) has dragon myths attached to thier history. Native Americans describe a "Thunder Bird" which fits the description of a Pteridactyl. The Chinese have depictions of Brachiasauruses kissing each other. The story of Grendel in Beawulf, fits the description of a T-Rex. Alexander the Great was chased off by a dragon in India. And modern day tribes in the Congolesse jungle describe what looks like a Brachiasaurus that is so fierce that the alligators keep thier distance. That jungle is 80% unexplored.

Now we know that reptiles grown perpetually all thier lives. If humans prior to the Flood lived to be 900+ years old and very shortly after the Flood, they only lived to be 100 years old, we can assume something happened to the earth's climate during that Flood that caused the lifespan to drop by almost 90%. We can also assume that animals including dinosaurs lived much longer than they would have today. And if dinosaurs lived 9x the length that they would have today, they would have gotten impressively large. I still believe dinosaurs may be alive, but not in the same sizes that we know them to be. The tribes in the Congo report that the creature they know about it is only 20 feet tall (ish). Brachiasauruses got much bigger than that based on the bones we have found. But catch this, the Brachiasaurus' nostrils are about the size of a horse. How could a beast that size breath under today's conditions? But put it in a hyperbaric chamber and it would do fine.

David and Job knew about dragons. The early Brits knew about dragons. The Native Americans knew about dragons. The Chinese knew about Dragons. The Greek and the Romans have dragon legends. The only logical explination is that human and dragons (today known as dinosaurs) lived together at the same time.

I hope you all have a Happy Thanksgiving, everyone. And I hope you enjoyed your Turkey dinner, Shadowlander. Mine doesn't arrive until whichever day in Christmas the family can get together.

1. God turns on a flashlight in the area which will be the Kitchen, which prior to this was "formless and void". He does this in oh...about 24 hours.

Yes, yours is quite a sensational recipe, given that it normally takes at least three weeks to renovate a kitchen, even with the fridge and stove picked out, and at least three days to thaw the turkey, even in the middle of summer. And normally the renovators use something better than a flashlight to see with. The Light God brought into being in a trice of time would have had more 'Bang' and reliability to it, and wouldn't waste a battery an hour to get things started.

Note what I underlined. Adam didn't say it took 6 days... We humans have finite minds and understanding.

Quite so, but I also agree with Pattertwig's Pal. Any great project has to be done correctly, a step at a time. Adam had to be able to count, and have a concept of the future, to see into it, beyond sunset. And if he could have managed that, he would not have fell for the Serpent's temptation. I do hope you realise when you underlined the bit you quoted so earnestly, that what I wrote was also tongue-in-cheek.

John Romer, the author of Testament, the book I told you about, asked on page 3, 'Where and when did Genesis have its beginnings? There is no record of its writing....'

This is in sharp contrast to the rest of the Pentateuch, which deals in great detail with the laws established by Moses, and Moses' own story. It is reasonable to say that Moses, himself, who could obviously read and write, would have had something to do with this story, though the Israelites were hardly able to traipse around the desert with reams of diaries and writing materials along with the Ten Commandments. But Genesis has nothing to say about Moses, himself, and the statements at the beginning of Genesis are in sharp contrast to Ancient Egyptian beliefs about the way the world started . I agree that before you have the great tale of how, when and why Moses led the Israelites out of slavery in Egypt, there has to be some sort of understanding of how they were in Egypt in the first place.

Thank you, Pattertwig's pal for the educational information. I always wondered if they had Technical colleges in USA, to train apprentices etc. Judging by the sorts of American movies shown here, like Caddyshack, for example, I get the impression that everyone who doesn't get to University is considered to have 'dropped out'.

9. Humans have been following Adam and Eve’s recipe for disaster ever since.

Exactly.

Speaking of recipes, would anyone know a good non-chestnut turkey stuffing recipe? We don't have chestnuts available here in the middle of summer.

Yes, yours is quite a sensational recipe, given that it normally takes at least three weeks to renovate a kitchen, even with the fridge and stove picked out, and at least three days to thaw the turkey, even in the middle of summer.

For a normal human being like you or me this would be the case, but bear in mind we're talking about the Master Chef/Carpenter here.

And normally the renovators use something better than a flashlight to see with.

The point you're overlooking is that God was the flashlight.

Speaking of recipes, would anyone know a good non-chestnut turkey stuffing recipe? We don't have chestnuts available here in the middle of summer.

My Maternal Unit has a great one, but I'm not sure exactly how it works. I've watched her make it in the past but I don't have the recipe, but it's always a big hit. She starts with just plain seasoned um...not bread crumbs, they look more like croutons, like what you'd put in your salad, but not quite the same thing. Then she gets a big basting pan and dices up some celery (and I think a little onion), adds some more seasoning and water, and then bakes it. When the turkey's ready she stuffs the bird and voila! Awesomeness! The drippings from the turkey smother the stuffing inside and it's just....I don't have the words.

When in doubt though one could just use plain ol' Stovetop Stuffing. I'm not sure you guys have it down there. This is why my idea of the "NarniaWeb Black Market Food Trade" system would be so beneficial. Then we could just send food back and forth overseas and I might finally get my mitts on Vegemite and see what the old Men At Work song was talking about.

Thank you very much, Shadowlander, & am greatly obliged. (bows) Because the turkey we Had to Have came with a leaflet with 2 turkey stuffing recipes, one of which said - you guessed it - 440 gm can of whole chestnuts. So today, just in case I'm missing something I checked on the grocery shelves again. Yes there are whole water chestnuts, the same sort you put into Chinese cooking. No there are no Chestnuts, not even that revolting-looking purplish goo in a can they once used to put out as Chestnut puree. Unless water chestnuts and the chestnuts you sing carols about are one and the same thing. I'm under the impression they aren't

In this year's Great Yearly Chestnut Hunt, I also found out that redcurrant jelly is nice to glaze one's turkey with. One's Very Big Bonus Turkey, which came with the new fridge. After the old one collapsed in the Global Warming. Yes redcurrant jelly glazing is nice, but I'm not all that sure that I know what is meant by redcurrant jelly. Is it a sort of jam? Something that is made up with jelly crystals and hot water then chilled in the fridge? Or is it rather a kind of sauce like Mint Jelly or Cranberry Jelly? Well I looked and looked. And guess what - no such thing available at my local supermarket. They did say something about Marmalade, Ginger and Soy Sauce being used. Would Ginger Marmalade and Soy Sauce do? I do promise you that I won't use Vegemite as a glaze though it did cross my mind.....

This year at the Supermarket In the Hot Place, there are at least no Christmas carols about chestnuts roasting on an open fire, thank God. In 100 degree heat F or 40 degree C with bushfire warnings at full blast, it would be a little tactless to play such a song. But this year it seems there are no Christmas carols at all over the PA system. At least we have a nice little Nativity scene in a glass case.

Does anyone else notice how secularised and commercialised Christmas can be in public places?

Have you noticed a move away from public Christian celebrations altogether?

I am personally offended that people are trying to keep us from saying "Merry Christmas" while still desiring to take the holiday off. They way I see it, if you're not going to honor the holiday by calling it by name, don't bother celebrating it, even in a secular fashion. You won't hear me saying "Happy Holidays". CHRISTmas is the time to celebrate that God himself would humble himself to live in the form of a man so that he could bear the sin weight of the world upon his shoulders. And unfortunately for myself, I've been a Christian so long, I do tend to forget about the very roots that brought me where I am. I tend to think about, 'now I am saved, what next?'. I should at least from time to time, go back and remember what had to take place so that I might live. And in this time of Thanksgiving, I will say that I don't have enough thanks to remotely give it justice.

Have a wonderful rest of the Thanksgiving weekend and have a MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Well, you know other religions also have Holidays at Christmas Time .

And that is one excellent reason Happy Holidays is an appropriate salutation for commercial enterprises and government agencies to use. I mean what if every store and govt office greeted Christians, Muslims, Pagans, Atheists and Jews alike with Happy Hannukah ? It might seem a tad inappropriate .

But no-one is stopping anyone from celebrating how they like, or trying to stop YOU from saying Merry Christmas. I love Christmas, and when I had a store I would wish people Happy Holidays, and Merry Christmas if I was certain they were Christian (I knew most of my customers unless they were tourists), and dress up as Frosty and run a Food Drive too.

As to the Over-commercialization, I couldn't agree more. But that's been going on for 150 years more or less (you can blame Macy's and Gimball's if you must). But really, you have to expect that in a Commerce based society. It's not necessarily a bad thing. It's only bad when people forget what the Spirit of Christmas (and Hannukah, or Midwinter Solstice for that matter) is all about. And that's up to individuals themselves. I don't think you have to worry unless The White Witch tries to stop you from personally celebrating Christmas .

Peace and Long Life

Gandalf's Beard

On one hand, I think it's very silly for people to insist that no one in their presence utter the dreaded word "Christmas" for fear of being un-PC. I agree with Fencer, if you're that adamant about not wanting the Christmas Spirit around you, then you shouldn't celebrate it in any fashion, and that includes the gift-giving, the tree, the lights, and the family gatherings. I have always been bewildered by my adamantly Atheist friend's insistence on celebrating Christmas on a different day with a tree decorated to reflect her family heritage instead of ornaments so that she can show off how very Atheist she is. She goes around the whole Christmas season complaining about all the religion everywhere, and when we point out that this is a highly religious season, she quotes the Freedom of Religion standpoint.

Too often, people take "Freedom of Religion" to mean "freedom from seeing, hearing, or contacting any religion except my own". Atheists complain about public nativity scenes, Christians complain about Atheists trying to "take over" Christmas with their Godlessness and greed, and Pagans complain that the Christians stole their holiday (which, let's be honest, is rather true, but there's still no point to complaining). The very plain fact of the matter is that December is host to several celebrations from various religions, not all of which are one of the Big Three (Christianity, Judaisim, Islam). I don't think it's a terrible thing for a business or government organization to wish its patrons "Happy Holidays". Now if you happen to have that person in your office who goes around correcting all the "Merry Christmas"es by telling you that you're being exclusive, that's both irritating and rude. But it's very sad when people of all religions can take this time of year that's meant for goodwill and celebration in all those faiths and make it into some politically motivated gripe battle over who greeted who with a "Merry Christmas" instead of a "Happy Hannukah" or a "Happy Holidays".

And that is one excellent reason Happy Holidays is an appropriate salutation for commercial enterprises and government agencies to use. I mean what if every store and govt office greeted Christians, Muslims, Pagans, Atheists and Jews alike with Happy Hannukah ? It might seem a tad inappropriate .

I'd be cool with it--Jesus celebrated Hannukah, why can't a Christian? I'm a child of Abraham by faith, after all .

TBG

My guess is you would be in the minority TBG . Though I applaud your openness to that .

GB