MM ... I want to know how you define "worship." Because my understanding of the word [what counts is the Hebrew and Greek, though ] is that everything we do that glorifies God is worship -- whether we sing to God, teach others through the Word and song, preach, study our Bibles, tell others about Jesus, pray, obey, tithe, etc. I don't care for the latter part of this video [after ] but it demonstrates that worship is a lifestyle.

I love the first part of your church's worship bulletin! But I admit I have an aversion to both "performance" and "presentation." Because to me, neither is worship. Giving one's testimony in a sermon or song shouldn't be a performance. Praising God shouldn't be a performance. And I can usually tell the difference. Regarding music, compare Allison Durham Speer and Sandi Patti. Patti has a beautiful voice but she seems rather arrogant to me. Speer is never arrogant. She's humble. Speer's anointing and authenticity show she worships in the Spirit! Patti performs.

220, I totally agree that everything we do is worship. But here’s my question: why does my definition matter (it should be God's definition that matters!) and why do you ask in reference to music only?

To me, that’s part at least of the essence of the problem: “worship” has become defined as being “the-music-that-is-done-when-Christians-meet-together”, and nothing else even though most who use it will grant a larger understanding of it if pressed. Some have generously allowed that it’s everything Christians do when they meet together…i.e., preaching, teaching, fellowshipping, praying. But in their minds that’s where it stops. That’s even part of the problem with singing “In The Garden” repeatedly…singing one song over and over again actually limits “worship” (though it may not limit “teaching”). And I am fearfully concerned that when we as Christians call that “worship” (and I maintain that that is NOT a Scriptural definition), then go and sing it with or for each other, we feel that we have done all the worship that is necessary and we can relax and do as we please the rest of the time. No wonder we get up in arms when someone tells us that we ought to limit our repetition of it!

So, for instance…how come your examples were of singers and not electricians? And how come is it that you feel you can tell the difference between someone who is worshiping in song in the Spirit, but no one cares to watch the electricians to see if they are worshiping in Spirit and truth when they wire our church buildings? The electricians “perform” their job, and we are glad and nobody fusses about semantics and whether we call what they do a “performance” or a “presentation”.

Here’s something I’ve wanted to point out since this whole thing blew up in my face: please read the Merriam-Webster definition of “perform”.

• Function: verb
• Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French parfurmer, alteration of perforner, parfurnir, from par-, per- thoroughly (from Latin per-) + furnir to complete — more at furnish
• Date: 14th century
transitive verb 1 : to adhere to the terms of : fulfill
2 : carry out, do
3 a : to do in a formal manner or according to prescribed ritual b : to give a rendition of : presentintransitive verb 1 : to carry out an action or pattern of behavior : act, function
2 : to give a performance : play

Now there’s an idea that should raise some eyebrows: if it is a performance, (which according to this definition is something everyone does), then there’s likely a right way and a wrong way of doing it. According to this definition, to perform and to present are the same.

Apply this definition to your second paragraph above, 220, and you may notice that there is a bit of a disconnect. You are saying that “performing” or “presenting” are not worship. If you apply the definition above to your statement, then, there is nothing that is worship at all. If it is worship, then it cannot be something I do. I cannot worship by giving a testimony in sermon or song or by praising God, because all of those are things I perform or do and by definition must be something I present somewhere to someone.

I suggest to you that the slightly schizophrenic nature of your words is due to the perception that somehow using the word “performance” means “showing-you-what-I-am-capable-of-and-expecting-you-to-think-highly-of-me-for-it”. If that is the sum total of the definition of the word “performance”, then you are right, that is not worship. Worship must be something I do, an action I take. As a Christian, all that I do should be worship. It takes both action and intention for something to be worship.

Indeed, we give accolades to those who have “performed their duty”. Soldiers, policemen, firefighters, doctors. Nobody thinks twice about using the word “perform” for what they do, either. If they don’t perform their duty according to the book, though, they are hardly ever successful nor are they considered to have done it…rather, they usually suffer some consequences—often consequences that make public their mistake.

Allow me to answer my own questions from a few paragraphs ago…boiled down, those questions come to this: how is music different from everything else we do as worship?

Scripturally, the only reason music is different is because it is specifically mentioned as something to be done when we get together as Christians in the New Testament (God must have though music more important than electric wiring—a puzzling statement, but read on). Referencing those Scriptures in my post above, it is to be done as teaching and admonishment in the Word, it is to be done with thankfulness in the heart toward God.

Socially, music is something that everyone from the most emotional, charismatic emergent to the hard-boiled atheist is passionate about for one reason or another.

And therein, I fear, lies the issue. We are reluctant to divorce our feelings toward music (and all art) long enough to find out what God says about it and bring our perspective into line with His. It’s OURS, and we don’t want to give it up or have it restricted in any way. Is that starting to sound just a tad bit idolatrous?

Somehow it’s a dirty thing when a singer or instrumentalist spends years of sacrifice devoted to disciplining the body and mind God gave them to point of human perfection and then performs that duty exuding confidence that they have fully accessed what God has given them with the help of His grace…yet it’s a “beautiful” thing when your neighborhood electrician comes to church, approaches the podium with an open hymnbook, and croaks out a “Spirit-filled” rendition of “In The Garden”. Nobody ever recognizes his confidence/arrogance at being the best electrician, however.

Why aren’t they both beautiful? And why is the “heart” of one so easily recognized as being “In the Spirit” and the other dismissed as arrogance?
I submit to you that both equally can be a result of changed hearts. And both equally are subject to wrong motives. Yet we will never question the heart motives of the croaker (nor will we ever tear up at the perfection of his work as an electrician). The “performer” will be harshly judged, not only for their “heart” but down to the way their coattails hang and whether they play the “e” with the preferred fingering or an alternate in that fast passage.

220, that's a great point that everything we do in our life is worship -- including our vocations. (Something tells me Mother Music would strongly agree.) But I wonder if something done in our life that is either against God's standards of truth (such as breaking one of His laws) or even done poorly (if we could have done better and know it) could count as worship.

However, I would contend that label aside, it's the heart of the performer/presenter that makes whatever is done a mere humans-focused "performances" or a more God-focused presentation. If we can't use either of those words, what could be used for what is done during "special music"? "Stuff Christians Like"? Argh, it's taken.

I strongly agree, Dr. R, that everything we do is worship. Further, I think that if a careful study is done of how God Himself applies the term to all that we do, we would find that we as Christians aren’t worshiping nearly enough, nor in the right ways, nor with the right heart…and we would be ashamed that we had argued over this one issue surrounding music.

In reference to the heart, though, let’s go back, for instance, to the example of the electrician. Even though his rendition of “In The Garden” was “In The Spirit” and brought tears to our eyes because of his heart (and rightly so—keep following me here)…what if he had done the building wiring with the same qualifications? Let’s turn it around. Let’s say that I, as a trained musician (but no electrician), have an overwhelming desire to show my thankfulness and praise to God by re-wiring the building? May I just walk in, rip open a wall and start cutting and re-attaching wires? Especially may I do so with the right heart and “In The Spirit”? Should I survive my “worship experience”, will it be effective in the Kingdom? Will it bring tears to the eyes of those who watch?

Likely it will bring tears. But not because my heart was right and the result was that everyone was brought to thankfulness toward God.
BUT MY HEART WAS RIGHT. Can you argue that my heart was right? You saw the look on my face, the humility in my movements (just before the explosion, that is). You knew I was worshiping “In The Spirit”…it was so easy to judge my heart…

It may be that “it's the heart of the performer/presenter that makes whatever is done a mere humans-focused "performances" or a more God-focused presentation”, to use your own words. But I submit to you it’s the fruit that proves the heart. If I am selfish enough to insist on re-wiring the building when I know nothing about it simply because my heart wants to worship God that way, then I’m not worshiping God…it is unsafe, unwise and therefore unloving to do such a thing, and ergo it isn’t worship of God (it may be worship of something besides God but that would be idolatry). Oh, and just as an aside…isn’t it funny that no one ever insists on re-wiring buildings as worship? Hardly anyone wants that job. And I assure you that you want your electrician to worship God that way as well as have confidence in the job he did after his years of training and dedication to learning the skills necessary. You don’t call it arrogance, in fact, you don’t even care if he did it with thankfulness in his heart toward God…you’re just glad he knows what he’s doing. And I’ll bet you don’t even think of it as worship, regardless of your protestations otherwise. You are blessed by the result.

So what is my point? My point is that while singing and making music with or before a Christian congregation is no less worship than what the electrician does, it is also no more than that. Therefore training and ability matter as much (in the normal course of things) as does the heart. And Scripturally the training and ability should not only be in music, but also in teaching and doctrine, if the fruit is to be good fruit and the performance be effective for the Kingdom.

Are there acceptable levels of ability and training? There’s not just one level. Just as in the job of wiring a building, there are jobs that everyone can and should do, under the direction of the master electrician! Almost everyone can string a piece of wire through a hole in the wall. Doing that with the detailed instructions of the master electrician as a guide would be a blessing and a help whether your heart was right or not…and I submit that if you were doing it according to instructions and with thankfulness to God, your heart is right regardless of the look on your face or the humility in your movements and it can therefore be defined and identified as performance of an act of worship. In fact, I have seen my father doing this very act; I know his heart was right because I know my father…but the look on his face and the movements of his body indicated that what he was doing was hard work!

Just so is the “acceptable” level of ability and training needed for the performance of the duty of music in and before a Christian gathering. It’s hard work to do it right. Get the heart truly right, and the rest will follow (because a right heart willingly adds virtue and discipline to faith)…but others may not be able to tell by looking that the heart is right. To you, it may look like the person is overconfident, or it may look like they are having to work very hard. Only God knows whether the heart is right. But the fruit will tell. Just as when the electrician sang “In The Garden” in his croaking voice because God had changed his heart and the fruit was that people in the audience were encouraged in the Lord…just so when I push the wire through the right hole in humility accepting the instruction of the master electrician have I brought blessing to others.
So my conclusion is this: It is prideful and unworshipful to insist that one be allowed to “music” publically without any guidance, preparation or discernment simply because one’s heart is right just as it is prideful and unworshipful to insist that one be allowed to “electric” publically (or privately, for that matter) without any guidance, preparation or discernment simply because one’s heart is right.

Therefore it is not wrong for the music director of a Christian congregation to offer guidance and discernment and preparation helps to those who desire to perform a public act of teaching, admonishing music…and those who desire to do so should gladly and humbly submit to that guidance and discernment and preparation, as long as that guidance is Scripturally founded and lovingly expressed. For that guidance and leadership is also an act of worship…

Leaving the analogy of the electrician…here is something that was related to me in this event. In regards to singing in the choir…”Oh, we don’t want to learn anything. We just want to sing.” How is that worship? If you are going to DO ("perform") what everyone else in the congregation is doing and nothing more, then how is it worship to put yourself BEFORE the congregation, sitting in a special place? Just sitting/standing someplace different is not worship. And placing yourself so that everyone can see you…isn’t that rather arrogant and self-promoting? There’s a Scripture about that, and Jesus isn’t talking about worship in that instance but castigating the Pharisees for “desiring the best seats”.

Sheesh. Thanks very much. It felt good to get all that out. Sorry about the length. Slice away at this diatribe Scripturally if you can…I invite it. But do yourself a favor and don’t crucify me, personally. It would be redundant at any rate, since I’ve both been crucified with Christ as well as within certain circles locally already.

mm

220christTian, thank you so much for your opinions on life and sin. Romans 6:23 is a great verse as are all of the other ones you gave. Thanks also for the warning about the guy in the background on that video. I hadn’t had a chance to listen to it so your warning came in time. I'm sure I would have questioned what he said anyway but you saved me the trouble. I can see why you would be angry that someone said God makes mistakes. That is wrong.

The more I think about what the pastor at my church said, the more I’ve been thinking about the line in the Last Battle: “By mixing a little truth with it they had made their lie far stronger.” God wants to give us life / cares about life, but that is not his only concern. He also cares about good and evil. Sure God used a lot of imperfect people to fulfill his plans. That did not mean that he didn’t care about good and bad. The pastor mentioned David. David was far from perfect. He behaved horribly in his dealings with Bathsheba and Uriah, but God punished him for it. When I read stories about the imperfect people that God uses, it reminds me just how merciful, good, and awesome, and loving God is. He is able to use even our faults and short comings to fulfill His plan. How would he show His power if he just used perfect or near perfect people? Moses only became a leader because God worked through him and despite of him (Moses did everything he could to get out of it). If Moses had been willing to be a leader, it would change the whole feel of the story. Not that God doesn’t use people who are willing right away to do what is asked of them, he does do that. Mary agreed to have baby Jesus without convincing. However, she didn’t always get things right either. At times she didn’t always understand what was happening and tried to stop Jesus because she thought he had lost his mind. The people God used for his plans in the Bible illustrate hope for all people. If God could use Saul for his purpose, than he can use any one. We all have the chance to follow God and be used by God no matter what we have done. (I hope I’m making sense).

Stargazer, Thanks for your input. I checked up on the story in Genesis too and came to the same conclusion you did. It always makes me feel better when someone agrees with me.

MM, there definitely should be some standards about what kind of music should be used in worship. I agree also that you should not beg people to do music. When my sister was first learning piano, the organist at our church kept pressuring her to play a prelude. The more she pushed the less my sister wanted to play in church. If I remember correctly, my mom was worried it would discourage her from ever playing in church and / or public. (This was over ten years ago so my memory is a little foggy.) The organist had other piano students playing and we got to hear “Mary Had a Little Lamb” before church. (Now my sister accompanies a children choir, has also been in a worship band, and helps lead the music for a contemporary worship service at our church. But it was her choice to do this and not something she felt obligated to do.)

But do yourself a favor and don’t crucify me, personally. It would be redundant at any rate, since I’ve both been crucified with Christ as well as within certain circles locally already.

I wasn't crucifying you. I'm sorry if that's how you felt after reading my post. Your post may not have intended to "crucify" me either but that was the result.

You make a good point about everything that glorifies God being worship, including correctly wiring a church building. And I think they're worshipping God in spirit and in truth when they do their job right. But my focus was on the musical aspect of worship. And it will be so in this post. Isn't that how this discussion began? And when I say "in the Spirit" I'm not referring to "in spirit and in truth." I'm talking about something else, a phenomenon I've witnessed only in prayer, music, and preaching. I somehow cannot seem to explain this to non-Pentecostals. I can only point to specific songs on Youtube and recount church experiences.

Using the word “performance” means “showing-you-what-I-am-capable-of-and-expecting-you-to-think-highly-of-me-for-it”. If that is the sum total of the definition of the word “performance”, then you are right, that is not worship.

When someone sings "I will glory in the cross" in the Spirit they may be doing it "in a formal manner." They may be "giv[ing] a performance." But the effect is something entirely different. You forget the singer, focus on the song, and glorify God. The singer/s and song/s should point to Christ. My problem is with the connotations, not definitions, of "perform" and "present." I explained that in my response to Dr. Ransom. Yes, my church does things "in a formal manner or according to prescribed ritual." There's a certain order to each service that rarely changes. But sometimes the Holy Spirit moves and we pray longer than we intend to, or a choir song moves the congregation and we bypass the sermon and open the altar for prayer. Or maybe the altar service lasts a half hour.

Somehow it’s a dirty thing when a singer or instrumentalist spends years of sacrifice devoted to disciplining the body and mind God gave them to point of human perfection and then performs that duty exuding confidence that they have fully accessed what God has given them with the help of His grace…yet it’s a “beautiful” thing when your neighborhood electrician comes to church, approaches the podium with an open hymnbook, and croaks out a “Spirit-filled” rendition of “In The Garden”. Nobody ever recognizes his confidence/arrogance at being the best electrician, however. Why aren’t they both beautiful? And why is the “heart” of one so easily recognized as being “In the Spirit” and the other dismissed as arrogance? I submit to you that both equally can be a result of changed hearts. And both equally are subject to wrong motives. Yet we will never question the heart motives of the croaker (nor will we ever tear up at the perfection of his work as an electrician). The “performer” will be harshly judged, not only for their “heart” but down to the way their coattails hang and whether they play the “e” with the preferred fingering or an alternate in that fast passage.

It may be that “it's the heart of the performer/presenter that makes whatever is done a mere humans-focused "performances" or a more God-focused presentation”, to use your own words. But I submit to you it’s the fruit that proves the heart. If I am selfish enough to insist on re-wiring the building when I know nothing about it simply because my heart wants to worship God that way, then I’m not worshiping God…it is unsafe, unwise and therefore unloving to do such a thing, and ergo it isn’t worship of God (it may be worship of something besides God but that would be idolatry). Oh, and just as an aside…isn’t it funny that no one ever insists on re-wiring buildings as worship? Hardly anyone wants that job. And I assure you that you want your electrician to worship God that way as well as have confidence in the job he did after his years of training and dedication to learning the skills necessary. You don’t call it arrogance, in fact, you don’t even care if he did it with thankfulness in his heart toward God…you’re just glad he knows what he’s doing. And I’ll bet you don’t even think of it as worship, regardless of your protestations otherwise. You are blessed by the result.

So what is my point? My point is that while singing and making music with or before a Christian congregation is no less worship than what the electrician does, it is also no more than that. Therefore training and ability matter as much (in the normal course of things) as does the heart. And Scripturally the training and ability should not only be in music, but also in teaching and doctrine, if the fruit is to be good fruit and the performance be effective for the Kingdom.

Are there acceptable levels of ability and training? There’s not just one level. Just as in the job of wiring a building, there are jobs that everyone can and should do, under the direction of the master electrician! Almost everyone can string a piece of wire through a hole in the wall. Doing that with the detailed instructions of the master electrician as a guide would be a blessing and a help whether your heart was right or not…and I submit that if you were doing it according to instructions and with thankfulness to God, your heart is right regardless of the look on your face or the humility in your movements and it can therefore be defined and identified as performance of an act of worship. In fact, I have seen my father doing this very act; I know his heart was right because I know my father…but the look on his face and the movements of his body indicated that what he was doing was hard work!

Just so is the “acceptable” level of ability and training needed for the performance of the duty of music in and before a Christian gathering. It’s hard work to do it right. Get the heart truly right, and the rest will follow (because a right heart willingly adds virtue and discipline to faith)…but others may not be able to tell by looking that the heart is right. To you, it may look like the person is overconfident, or it may look like they are having to work very hard. Only God knows whether the heart is right. But the fruit will tell. Just as when the electrician sang “In The Garden” in his croaking voice because God had changed his heart and the fruit was that people in the audience were encouraged in the Lord…just so when I push the wire through the right hole in humility accepting the instruction of the master electrician have I brought blessing to others.
So my conclusion is this: It is prideful and unworshipful to insist that one be allowed to “music” publically without any guidance, preparation or discernment simply because one’s heart is right just as it is prideful and unworshipful to insist that one be allowed to “electric” publically (or privately, for that matter) without any guidance, preparation or discernment simply because one’s heart is right.

Therefore it is not wrong for the music director of a Christian congregation to offer guidance and discernment and preparation helps to those who desire to perform a public act of teaching, admonishing music…and those who desire to do so should gladly and humbly submit to that guidance and discernment and preparation, as long as that guidance is Scripturally founded and lovingly expressed. For that guidance and leadership is also an act of worship.

I'm confused about how the discussion turned toward training, or the lack thereof, in church worship and service. I didn't mean to imply that singing "in the Spirit" with a pure heart meant the person/s had little training. Quite the opposite! I hate hearing choirs who haven't practiced enough, or soloists who can't sing and I'm continually wondering why the worship leader chose them.

If you listen to the Allison Durham Speer songs I listed, you would know what I mean. I don't know how much training Speer has had. But I know she's had plenty. It's obvious when you hear her voice. It's just as operatic as Sandi Patti's! Others like Larnelle Harris, Annie Moses Band [musical family of Juilliard grads], Charles Billingsley, Alicia Williamson Garcia, and Shannon Wexelberg [CFNI grad] -- just to name a few -- have also had musical training! The difference is they glorify God with their talent and training. They sing to the Lord with pure hearts. They are humble people who glorify God. Although Sandi Patti is also a trained singer, I can't explain but she just performs. In so many Youtube videos, it seems like she's “showing-you-what-I-am-capable-of-and-expecting-you-to-think-highly-of-me-for-it.” And that's what makes me angry.

On Youtube
My Larnelle Harris playlist
Annie Moses Band [their channel]
Charles Billingsley
And here's my TRBC/Billingsley playlist
Alicia Williamson Garcia
Shannon Wexelberg

Here's the First Baptist choir in Woodstock, GA singing Unto the Lamb. Here's the TRBC choir in Lynchburg, VA singing Lord, You're Holy. On the latter, notice how the congregation stands up @ 4:30. They can feel the Spirit moving! I've been to TRBC dozens of times and rarely does the congregation stand up during the featured choral song! I know these people aren't Pentecostal but the spirit and warmth at this church is amazing! The point? These choirs are trained. They're not inadequate. But they also glorify God.

God wants to give us life / cares about life, but that is not his only concern. He also cares about good and evil. Sure God used a lot of imperfect people to fulfill his plans. That did not mean that he didn’t care about good and bad. The pastor mentioned David. David was far from perfect. He behaved horribly in his dealings with Bathsheba and Uriah, but God punished him for it. When I read stories about the imperfect people that God uses, it reminds me just how merciful, good, and awesome, and loving God is. He is able to use even our faults and short comings to fulfill His plan. How would he show His power if he just used perfect or near perfect people? . . . The people God used for his plans in the Bible illustrate hope for all people. If God could use Saul for his purpose, than he can use any one. We all have the chance to follow God and be used by God no matter what we have done. (I hope I’m making sense).

Amen! And yes, you made perfect sense! This is what living and walking in the Spirit is all about: our weakness becoming God's strength. What did Jesus tell Paul? "My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness" [2 Corinthians 12:9, KJV]. God can use anyone, including Saul, Pharaoh, and Nebuchadnezzar, for His purposes. There are no limits to God! What amazes me is when those who openly defy God seem like putty in His hands compared to some Christians.

Mary agreed to have baby Jesus without convincing. However, she didn’t always get things right either. At times she didn’t always understand what was happening and tried to stop Jesus because she thought he had lost his mind.

I guess I'd like to know what you have in mind...

I was reading Genesis 1-3 the other day and my eyes lighted on 3:7. [Holy Spirit, of course ] This made me read verses 8-10 and 21 in a different light!

And the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked, and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden. And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, 'Where art thou?' And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked, and I hid myself. . . .Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

There's a beautiful order here! The grace of God that leads to conversion, to life in Christ:
1. Our eyes are opened to sin. We see our spiritual nakedness and shame.
2. We try to cover ourselves to hide our sin but it's always inadequate.
3. We hide from God.
4. God seeks us, like a lost lamb! [Of course, He was seeking us before #1. ]
5. God reveals the curse of sin. [vs. 16-19] -- but also before #1
6. God, in Christ, covers us in His blood and clothes us with His righteousness.

Mary agreed to have baby Jesus without convincing. However, she didn’t always get things right either. At times she didn’t always understand what was happening and tried to stop Jesus because she thought he had lost his mind.

I guess I'd like to know what you have in mind...

I have a study Bible and it has a section about Mary. In the section it talked about how she said yes to God. It cited Luke 1:38 "Here I am, the servant of the Lord; let it be with me according to your word." Then, the section covered exactly what that meant to Mary. "It meant raising a child she did not completely understand. (Once during his ministry she came to take charge of Jesus, thinking him out of his mind.)" Mark 3:21 "When his family heard it, they went out to restrain him, for people were saying, 'He has gone out of his mind.'" She and her sons didn't get any farther than the door though (Mark 3:31-35). Also Luke 2:48-50 show that she did not completely understand:

When his parents saw him they were astonished; and his mother said to him, “Child, why have you treated us like this? Look, you father and I have been searching for you in great anxiety.” He said to them, “Why were you searching for me? Did you not know I would be in my Father's house?” But they did not understand what he said to them.

I hope that clarifies.

Luke 1:38 "Here I am, the servant of the Lord; let it be with me according to your word." Then, the section covered exactly what that meant to Mary. "It meant raising a child she did not completely understand. (Once during his ministry she came to take charge of Jesus, thinking him out of his mind.)" Mark 3:21 "When his family heard it, they went out to restrain him, for people were saying, 'He has gone out of his mind.'" She and her sons didn't get any farther than the door though (Mark 3:31-35). Also Luke 2:48-50 show that she did not completely understand:

When his parents saw him they were astonished; and his mother said to him, “Child, why have you treated us like this? Look, you father and I have been searching for you in great anxiety.” He said to them, “Why were you searching for me? Did you not know I would be in my Father's house?” But they did not understand what he said to them.

I hope that clarifies.

Yes, it does clarify. Regarding wondering what you meant, I was referring to

At times she didn’t always understand what was happening and tried to stop Jesus because she thought he had lost his mind.

I wanted examples. I never connected Mark 3:21 with 3:31-35 because in the KJV it says "his friends [own people] . . . went out to lay hold on him, for they said, 'He is beside Himself.'" But it obviously mentions his mother and brothers in 3:31-35, doesn't it? My mom wrote a blog on John 2:1-10, demonstrating Mary's faith and trust in Jesus. And we have no way of knowing, but I think Mary may have been part of the female train that supported Jesus in His ministry [probably food, clothes, etc] in Luke 8:2-3.

Your post may not have intended to "crucify" me either but that was the result.

Saying even this wasn't exactly Christian, was it? I shouldn't have said anything, whatever I thought or felt, and I apologize.

MM: Others have asked whether they prefer someone with training but little heart or someone with heart but little training in ministry. I prefer heart to training. But the ideal situation is both. What am I talking about, you ask? Would you rather hear a Christian with little training or an accomplished musician who isn't saved sing "Amazing Grace"? Does it even matter? I think it does! I would rather hear a Christian sing "Amazing Grace" any day, no matter what his or her level of training. At the same time, I think if a person has the opportunity to gain professional training, he or she should do so. Even then, God can use anyone to accomplish His purposes in ministry, no matter how much training a person has. A similar question has been asked in the ministry of preaching. Do people want a pastor with one or more theological degrees or a pastor who's filled with the Spirit? I prefer the latter. But the ideal is both.

EDIT
Fencer: I looked up some discussion of Satan's fall online. Many websites talk about it but few discuss the "when." Still, here are two links of interest. I think the first one is better. Both mention Job 38:7, positing that the angels were created before Genesis 1.

The fall of Satan: when did this take place?
How, why, and when did Satan fall from heaven?

I wasn't crucifying you. I'm sorry if that's how you felt after reading my post. Your post may not have intended to "crucify" me either but that was the result.

220;
Please forgive me. I totally did not intend for you to feel crucified...and my final comment was meant toward anyone who wanted to correct me...not focused at you, and I'm sorry it came across that way. I didn't feel crucified by you, but I certainly see how you could have read it that way. I'm really hoping for a lot of comments on this so that I can maybe come up with some thoughts that are better than my own about it and also explain the phenomenon I've just witnessed.

I was using your post as a springboard, and that's all...not directing that huge bunch of heart barf directly at you. I hope you'll take it the way I meant it, and be able to forgive me the pain I caused you.

I do have to say, however, that although I get what you are trying to say about your experiences in seeing people worship, we as Christians cannot base our doctrines and religious practices on only experiences. We have to base them on Scripture. I've seen almost all these people perform, and I am not necessarily arguing that you are wrong. What I'm trying to get at are the principles involved.

Having been somewhat Pentecostal in my religious practices at times, I am not unfamiliar at all with what you are pointing out. I simply find that I can no longer base my "worship" upon only experience. It has to be experience + Scripture.

mm

I do believe the Isaiah passage describes how Satan fell to the earth.

I hate to have to say it, but this seems to me to be a case of bad hermaneutics. Where in the passage do we have an indication that it is even referring to Satan? In context, it is referring the king of Babylon. As much as I love tradition, I have to say hermaneutically that it is wrong on this point.

TBG

Tha's funny, I just read that passage last night in Isaiah 14. I have an NASB study Bible with notes by John MacArthur, and he says that the king of Babylon was inspired by Satan to do the things he did and so the passage applies both to him and to Satan obliquely. The basis for this is Christ's words in Luke 10:18, where He says He saw Satan fall like lightning from Heaven.

I have wondered about this before because if Isaiah 14 is referring to Satan, why is Jesus also called the Morning Star in Revelation 22?

Aaaagh! I just lost my whole dang post!

Let's see if I can re-collect my thoughts.

First off, Bravo for Mother-Music! You've said basically what I'd like to say if I had the time. Our church has basically the same philosophy as the document that created so much upheaval in your church, but we've never put it in words. If we did (especially if we singled out favorite old hymns whose repetition was to be eliminated) we would probably experience the same kind of incendiarism your church has. Hopefully we can avoid that. The main focus of our services is the preaching; as to music, the pastor usually chooses two or three hymns that complement the sermon, and the choir sings an anthem that usually complememnts the sermon in some way. The only things that might fall under the category of special music are the prelude, usually played by the organist, and the offertory, usually played by the pianist--that is, myself. We don't have any rules about special music though; we are a small congregation with a LOT of young musicians, and any time someone wants to play or sing they are welcome to do so. We haven't had any problems with innaproppriate music that I know of, but, as I said, we're a small church, and things are certainly different in larger congregations.

As to talent/training vs. heart/spirit-filled-ness,

I'm inclined to say,
In spite of cliche--

"Both/And." Pardon my rhyming. But Just Sincerity doesn't cut it, folks. Any time we do anything for God, he expects us to do our very best. If I'm learning a piano solo for a competition, would God be more pleased with my playing a simplistic version of 'Jesus Loves Me' just because it's 'Christian,' or with my tackling Beethoven and putting my all into it for His glory?

Where in the passage do we have an indication that it is even referring to Satan? In context, it is referring the king of Babylon. As much as I love tradition, I have to say hermaneutically that it is wrong on this point.

I don't know the church's history of interpreting Isaiah 14 or Ezekiel 28 [fall of the prince of Tyrus]. But although I think one meaning is God's judgment of a historical figure, in Isaiah 14:12 for example, God says "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!" Then it describes the figure's proud desire to be exalted above God. In Ezekiel 28, was the prince of Tyrus ever "in Eden the garden of God" or "upon the holy mountain of God" [verse 14]? Was he ever called "the anointed cherub that covereth" [verse 14]? God says the figure was perfect until "iniquity was found in thee" [verse 15]. What was that iniquity? Pride! This passage, like Isaiah, seems to describe Satan's sin and fall from heaven -- another dimension/meaning.

If Isaiah 14 is referring to Satan, why is Jesus also called the Morning Star in Revelation 22?

I used to wonder about this, too--in the opposite direction. I would ask myself why Satan was also called the "morning star." This webpage gives an answer to just that question. It says Jesus alone is the morning star, Satan "is only a poor imitation," and surmises that the latter may have been the brightest or most powerful angel.

I totally did not intend for you to feel crucified...and my final comment was meant toward anyone who wanted to correct me...not focused at you, and I'm sorry it came across that way. I didn't feel crucified by you, but I certainly see how you could have read it that way. . . .I was using your post as a springboard, and that's all...not directing that huge bunch of heart barf directly at you. I hope you'll take it the way I meant it, and be able to forgive me the pain I caused you.

I completely understand. I see now what you're saying and I'm sorry for mistakenly taking it personally.

We as Christians cannot base our doctrines and religious practices on only experiences. We have to base them on Scripture. I've seen almost all these people perform, and I am not necessarily arguing that you are wrong. What I'm trying to get at are the principles involved. Having been somewhat Pentecostal in my religious practices at times, I am not unfamiliar at all with what you are pointing out. I simply find that I can no longer base my "worship" upon only experience. It has to be experience + Scripture.

In the last few days, as a result of this discussion, I told God I wanted to worship biblically. So, yes, it's beginning to dawn on me that I can't base worship on experience alone! When I briefly looked up the word in a concordance, I noticed that "worship" frequently appears along with the phrase "fall down" or "bow down." So there must be an intimate connection in worship with humility, not necessarily of a literal bowing down [although we'll do that in heaven! ], but of a humble mind, heart, and spirit that desires to praise God alone.

Curious ... what are your thoughts on Daniel 3, when Nebuchadnezzar connects idolatry, falling down before his golden image, with musical instruments?

LOTS OF EDITS

Aaaagh! I just lost my whole dang post!

I don't know what the problem is. The mods might. They're still working out some kinks. But my suggestion is to write your response in Microsoft Word or another word processing program, save the file, and then post it complete into the post box. To my memory, I've never lost a thread, but I use Word as a backup--just in case.

As to talent/training vs. heart/spirit-filled-ness,

I'm inclined to say,
In spite of cliche--

"Both/And." Pardon my rhyming. But Just Sincerity don't cut it, folks. Any time we do anything for God, he expects us to do our very best. If I'm learning a piano solo for a competition, would God be more pleased with my playing a simplistic version of 'Jesus Loves Me' just because it's 'Christian,' or with my tackling Beethoven and putting my all into it for his glory?

Good point! I also want "both/and" [see earlier post]. But we can't have everything we want, can we? In those times when we don't get both, I look for heart. I've played Beethoven and Mozart in piano recitals, and I've played "Morning has broken." In the end, though, I'd still rather hear someone tackle something difficult for them that's Christian.

Curious ... what kind of church do you attend? And what's the average attendance? I guess I'd like to know the same with others. I'm used to pretty big churches. TRBC [Lynchburg, VA], Calvary Church [Grand Rapids, MI], and McLean Bible Church [McLean, VA] all run at least 3000, maybe much more. Compared to these my home church [500-1000?] is kinda small. But I've been to churches that had less than 50 in attendance. I prefer big to small. I mean, isn't that what heaven will be like? Yet the meetings I attend during the week run about 20.

All: Dr. Ergun Caner, President of the Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary in Lynchburg, VA, preached on worship in a 4-part sermon series called Houses of the Holy.

What is the number one reason churches split? WORSHIP Not bad pastors, or fighting members. These issues may be symptoms, but the arena in which they fight is WORSHIP. Instead of avoiding the argument, or trying to get everyone to get along, Dr. Ergun Mehmet Caner attacks the issue head-on. In this four part series on Worship, Caner investigates the nature of worship, and the principles behind it. You will be surprised at the results of following the models of worship throughout the Scriptures.

I read the following in a book on missions last night:

... the presence of the living God in the church through the power of the Spirit. The life of the church is no less important than its form or message.

So ... your thoughts? [Source: "The Role of American Protestantism in World Mission," American Missions in Bicentennial Perspective, ed. R. Pierce Beaver (South Pasadena, CA: William Carey Library, 1977), 354-402, 392.]

220, I attend Millville Baptist Church (SBC). We usually run about 70-80 people on Sunday mornings. I have visited larger churches, but I've never been a member anywhere else. My church is a second home to me--I've attended nearly every Sunday since nine months before I was born. I could probably learn to like a large church, but it would take some major adjusting. At my church, everybody knows everybody (and most are related at least three different ways).
By the way, what does the '220' in your name stand for? Is it Galatians 2:20 by any chance?

In the last few days, as a result of this discussion, I told God I wanted to worship biblically. So, yes, it's beginning to dawn on me that I can't base worship on experience alone! When I briefly looked up the word in a concordance, I noticed that "worship" frequently appears along with the phrase "fall down" or "bow down." So there must be an intimate connection in worship with humility, not necessarily of a literal bowing down [although we'll do that in heaven! ], but of a humble mind, heart, and spirit that desires to praise God alone.

Curious ... what are your thoughts on Daniel 3, when Nebuchadnezzar connects idolatry, falling down before his golden image, with musical instruments?

I’m glad the discussion has given you motivation to found your worship on Scripture!

What are my thoughts on Daniel 3? Well…my first thought is; why do you ask? An important point is being made in the passage, but the point has nothing to do with music. Almost all religions use music in one way or another (or eschew it as evil).

One fact that stands out from that passage and life experience is this: music is powerful. And because it is powerful that should clue us in to the facts that 1) God made it, and 2) it ought to be used for Him, and subject to His principles.

I am working on a study of “worship” and how it relates to the Eph. 5 and Col 3 Scriptures. When I have given it some time I will post it…

Good point! I also want "both/and" [see earlier post]. But we can't have everything we want, can we? In those times when we don't get both, I look for heart. I've played Beethoven and Mozart in piano recitals, and I've played "Morning has broken." In the end, though, I'd still rather hear someone tackle something difficult for them that's Christian.

You know, my point was that I don’t care whether a person has training—it’s not about training. It’s about these three criteria: 1. understanding of and desire to instruct and admonish from the pulpit with all that that involves; 2. True thankfulness in the performance of this act of worship with fruit that shows the heart (i.e., at least a modicum of preparation) 3. Humility…if you love the brethren, you will not insist on performing something that will not encourage them because you can’t stay on pitch or reach the high notes. Nor will you ask to sit in the choir without being willing to make the sacrifice of learning and preparing a unified, encouraging act of music. Not a perfect one. Just a prepared one.

It sounds lengthy, but it’s really pretty simple.

It’s puzzling to me, as I consider the people who have left our church over this with the above considerations: none of them had ever, ever asked to perform special music: not even “In The Garden” or “Beulah Land”. They had been part of the choir. One of the couples was the couple who reportedly mentioned that they did not want to learn anything in choir, only wanted to sing. (mind you, NO ONE has behaved toward me in this in a Matthew 18 manner. NO ONE has been willing to speak to me personally about all this. What I know, I know only by reports from the pastor)

I love both these couples. I enjoyed them as people and members of our choir very much. The couple who said they didn’t want to learn anything NEVER SAID THIS TO MY FACE. Ever. They had left the choir several months ago upon the auspices that they had other ministries God was calling them to—which was fine with me. But they never gave me a chance to speak to their concerns at all.

In fact, I felt that in all the church it was these couples that I had most in common with, and with whom there was a chance of building a more intimate relationship. Apparently I was quite deceived...

Unfortunately the only conclusion that can bring me to is that in all actuality they wanted to do what they wanted to do, wanted to have no strictures on it, and cared not a whit for pleasing God but only themselves—but also didn’t really want to do anything. (is it me, or does that seem dog-in-the-manger-ish to everyone? "I don't want it, don't know what to do with it, but you certainly can't have it or tell me what to do with it! ) They just didn’t want to have rules put on that which they didn’t want to do. Pretty immature, from my perspective. Which made me really sad, because I thought differently of them both. I really wish I could talk to them about it, but as I said, I “officially” know nothing, so have no Scriptural basis upon which to approach them.

Just as an aside: both Beethoven and Mozart were religious men who dedicated many of their compositions to God. So when you are playing their music, you are playing something that is Christian, at least in name.

mm

Greetings, all! Most of you probably haven't met me. My name's Ruby or Dani and I'm still pretty new to Narnia Web. I was just poking around the Spare Oom when I noticed this thread! It sounds quite interesting, but I'm still working on catching up on reading and such.

For now, I'll simply introduce myself briefly. I'm a Christian, as you probably guessed. Recently I've taken an interest in theology and philosophy so you can understand why this thread was so appealing.

I'll try to finish up reading some more posts and then catch up later!

God bless!

I don't know the church's history of interpreting Isaiah 14 or Ezekiel 28 [fall of the prince of Tyrus]. But although I think one meaning is God's judgment of a historical figure, in Isaiah 14:12 for example, God says "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!"

Actually, "Lucifer" is simply the Latinization of the Hebrew for "bearer of light" (lux=light ferre=to do or bear). Medieval scholarship presumed that this word was a personal name and thus thought it was a reference to Satan, when the context gives little indication that this is the case. The interpretation, then, that Satan is being referenced here is, to my mind, a case of tradition rather than letting Scripture interpret Scripture. There is no indication in the text that this is the case, nor is it interpreted this way in the NT.

I haven't studied the Ezekiel passage, so I can't speak to it.

TBG

My church is a second home to me--I've attended nearly every Sunday since nine months before I was born.

LOL! Great! Charles Billingsley, the worship leader at TRBC, said something similar recently. He was reared in Utah, where all the non-Mormons get together to have church.

By the way, what does the '220' in your name stand for? Is it Galatians 2:20 by any chance?

Yes, Galatians 2:20 [and also my birthday]. I've loved this verse for years. Living it, though, has been interesting...

What are my thoughts on Daniel 3? Well…my first thought is; why do you ask? An important point is being made in the passage, but the point has nothing to do with music. Almost all religions use music in one way or another (or eschew it as evil). One fact that stands out from that passage and life experience is this: music is powerful. And because it is powerful that should clue us in to the facts that 1) God made it, and 2) it ought to be used for Him, and subject to His principles.

I guess my point was that music isn't neutral. It can be used for good and bad, in most religions. Yes, God made music. He loves it! But as you said, it should "be used for Him," to glorify and honor God, "and subject to His principles." This is something you acknowledge but my generation, and some good friends, seem unable to.

Both Beethoven and Mozart were religious men who dedicated many of their compositions to God. So when you are playing their music, you are playing something that is Christian, at least in name.

Interesting. For Beethoven, I played something called "Not Fur Elise." It begins with the well-known music then segues into a modern [oh what's the word? ].

FYI: thanks for introducing me to some new smilies!

Heart vs. training: some ruminations... [If I'm beating a dead horse, I apologize. This isn't directed toward anyone. It's just my thoughts. You're free to agree, disagree, add something, etc. ]
Cruden’s Concordance defines the heart “as the seat of life or strength; hence it means mind, soul, spirit, or one’s entire emotional nature and understanding. It is also used as the centre or inner part of a thing” [290]. God tells us that the heart is most important. [See my blog post “Where is your heart???”] It determines our motives. In worship and in lifestyle, God looks at the heart. A job well done is also important. God doesn’t want slipshod work. But if the heart is in the right place, the work shouldn’t be slipshod anyway. If we don’t care about a project or person, we’ll give a half-hearted effort. But if we care a lot, if the project or person consumes us, we’ll put our best foot forward, will we not? Maybe we’re not capable of some things—in the flesh. But in the spirit, there are no limits! Just look at Moses, a stammerer; David, a shepherd boy; Jeremiah, who thought himself a boy; and Peter, a liar and coward. God transformed each person [and many others] so they could do what He had called them to do. What's the cliche? “He equips the called.” And what did God tell Samuel about David’s brothers? “The Lord seeth not as man seeth, for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart” [1 Samuel 16].

Some have lots of training. They can perform jobs well. But where is their heart? “Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? And in Thy name have cast out devils? And in Thy name performed many wonderful works?’ And then will I profess unto them, ‘I never knew you. Depart from Me, ye that work iniquity’” [Matthew 7:22-23]. These people did lots of things for Jesus. But it amounted to nothing. Why? They didn’t know Jesus. Their heart wasn’t in the right place.

I’m sure many of you are familiar with Jane Austen’s Pride and Prejudice. In the following illustration, I have the 1995 BBC movie adaptation in mind. Many women in this movie can play the piano, some better than others. Elizabeth Bennett, the heroine, is a pure young woman who plays “a little” and doesn’t practice much. Her sister Mary is a snobbish girl who plays better than her sisters, but not as well as others because her family can’t afford the training. Mr. Bingley’s married sister is also snobbish but plays extremely well. And then there’s Georgiana Darcy, the sister of the hero Mr. Darcy. She also plays extremely well but she has a pure, humble heart. Who would you rather hear on the piano? I choose Elizabeth and Georgiana over Mary and the Bingley sister. Why? They have pure hearts, whatever their training.

Through the centuries, many Levites served as singers and musicians in God’s tabernacle and temple. I’m sure they had plenty of training. If they hadn’t, I don’t think they would have served where they did nor done what they did. But their training was just part of their service and devotion to God, recorded in the Psalms. God also looked at their hearts. And He wasn’t pleased with their temple service when they disobeyed Him. The same is true of the Levites whose job was to offer sacrifices because "to obey is better than sacrifice and to hearken than the fat of rams" [1 Samuel 15]. “I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell [savor] in your solemn assemblies. Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept them, neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts. Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs, for I will not hear the melody of thy viols” [Amos 5:21-23]. Why was God displeased with them and their service? What was their sin? Idolatry [v. 26]. So God punished Judah by sending them to Babylon as captives, and by destroying the temple service and offerings [Lamentations 2:6-7]. I guess He thought no worship was better than idolatrous worship. What did Judah learn in Babylon? To praise God and seek Him with all their hearts. We see the fruit of that lesson in Ezra and Nehemiah. But even in Malachi, God wasn’t pleased with Israel’s temple worship. They weren’t guilty of idolatry. This time, it was something else. By offering polluted sacrifices [1:7-14] and telling themselves, “What a weariness is it!” [1], they were treating God’s name with contempt. God always wants a pure heart that loves and seeks Him. And He wants obedience, the fruit of a pure heart. He wants us to love Him with all our hearts and put Him first. These are most important. If our hearts are pure, God will be pleased with our worship. If they’re not, no matter how perfectly executed a song, God won’t be pleased. Isn’t this what Psalm 51 is about? David offers “sacrifices of righteousness” [v. 19] only after he repents of his sin, knowing God wants “a broken and a contrite heart” [v. 17] instead of a polluted offering, i.e. if David had offered sacrifices without repentance. [See also Isaiah 1:11-15, 29:13, Ezekiel 33:31-32, Hosea 6:6, Micah 6:6-8, Malachi 2:13, Matthew 15:8-9.]

Food for thought ... how often do we pray before we begin a church service? Do we ask God to inhabit the praises of His people? Do we ask God to open His eyes and ears to us and accept our worship, our sacrifices of praise? Do we ask God to open our eyes to see Him, to open our ears to hear His voice? “Enter into His gates with thanksgiving and into His courts with praise. Be thankful unto Him and bless His name” [Psalm 100]. How often do we do this? Do we thank and praise God at the beginning of each service for the opportunity to worship Him in spirit and in truth? For the freedom to be in God’s house? For who God is and what He’s done for us—every day? Or do we just jump in, when we begin each service, and sing a song or play an instrument?

Personal vs. corporate worship: some ruminations...
I don’t see it as personal vs. corporate. First of all, both are necessary to a healthy spiritual life. One without the other = Each Wednesday night, I worship with the senior adults at my church. They sing the old songs, which I know and like. They have vibrant spiritual lives. They know suffering and pain. They know what it means to trust in God. And what do they celebrate corporately each week? What God did for them as individuals during the week. Last week we remembered and praised Jesus for His healing touch to each of us. Last night was a little different. The sermon text was from Jeremiah, about God warning a nation, i.e. the US. Still, guess what songs we sang? The first was “Lily of the Valley”! The text? Song of Solomon 2:1, 5:10, Revelation 22:16. This is who Jesus is to each one of us. Through songs like “Because He lives,” “Something beautiful,” “The steadfast love of the Lord,” “Great is thy faithfulness,” “What a lovely name,”and “He touched me,” we corporately praised God for His character and beauty, and what He’s done for us individually throughout our lives.

Dr. Ransom: how do you define Gnosticism in the context of Christian music? You're not that fond of “In the Garden,” or at least don't want to hear it overplayed. Well, I don’t like “Who am I,” “Friend of God,” and “My Savior, My God,” just to name a few. There’s so much bad “Christian” music today: some CCM, alternative, rock, etc. “In the Garden” is saintly compared to much of this music! A person has to be really careful what they listen to. And guess what? Except for a certain Gaither video, I cannot remember the last time I heard this song in a church service! Nobody sings it anymore and I wish they would! The old saints aren’t passing down the faith [doctrine, music, the “old paths,” etc] to the younger generations. They’re especially not passing down the church’s rich musical heritage. And my generation is suffering spiritually because of it. The result is a pseudo-Christianity that doesn’t know what worship is, that probably cannot endure temptation or persecution when it comes.