Hello 220,

On the previous page you asked if that was why Catholics believe that Mary was sinless...

We believe that she was preserved from original sin, and then freely chose not to commit personal sin throughout her life. We believe that she was preserved from original sin by a gracious and free gift of God who was preparing the way for His Son. He did this in light of what Jesus was going to do. So indeed she was saved by God just like the rest of us...but before she fell into the hole of sin...not after.

There is such an emnity between God and sin, and just as the old Ark of the Covenant was pure...Mary had to be pure. She carried within her the Son of the Living God. Ponder that...and take that in. What an awesome gift.

Just as Christ was the new Adam...Mary was the new Eve. Christ crushed the head of the serpent as was promised in Genesis. It also says in Genesis "I will put emnity between you and the woman..." Mary's yes undid Eve's no, and set the stage for what Christ did.

Mary is an example to us Christian people. We should all strive to say yes to God always...just as she did.

JBC

Nevermind part of the awesome nature of God coming to earth in human form and being fully God and full man, is that he was born to a normal human being, yes, a sinful one.
Nevermind God's Word only mentions one person as being sinless, and he was Jesus. There's so much controversy with that belief.

This is going to be a very broad, very sweeping, and maybe slightly ridiculous question. (But this is the Christianity, Relgion, and Philosophy thread...

We talk on this board all the time about sin, and how sin is death and how God hates sin, and how people are all dead in sin. But what is this thing we call "sin"? Where does it come from? Why are some things sins and others not?

Just as Christ was the new Adam...Mary was the new Eve. Christ crushed the head of the serpent as was promised in Genesis. It also says in Genesis "I will put emnity between you and the woman..." Mary's yes undid Eve's no, and set the stage for what Christ did.
JBC

Mary's "yes" undid Eve's "no"? What does that mean? I don't recall Eve saying "no" to anything...wasn't that what caused the Fall in the first place? Her inability to say "no" to the serpent (and Adam's inability to say "no" to her)?

I fully realize that what I said will be controversial...

And your exactly right Warrior...I was not intending to diminish that miracle at all. Anyway...can one miraculous event diminish another considering they all come from the same source?

Lets look back to the Old Testament...the miracles of the Old point to the New. The miracle of the Hebrews being saved at the Red Sea points to Baptism. Passover points the Christs savific action on the Cross. Just as the Immaculate Conception of Mary points to the miracle of the Incarnation.

The miracle of the Immaculate Conception of Mary isn't primarily about who she is...its about who Christ is. Mary's whole being points toward her Son. "Do whatever He tells you..."

Perhaps a better way of putting it would be Mary's obediance undid Eve's disobediance.

JBC

Hey, I'm Catholic too!
But wait--there's a difference. I'm definitely not Roman Catholic...

But all who believe in Christ are the elect--only the elect follow Christ. To say that one is not elect and yet has true faith is to state an oxymoron. It's a contradiction in terms.

Very much agreed. This also adds to one of my previous posts: since 'we' believe that the Elect are the only ones who have true faith, then if you are truly saved, you can't "lose your salvation" as I've heard people claim many times.
If someone says they are saved, but then later on you can tell obviously from the way their life is that they are not saved, then they were lying when they said they were saved first off.
[/ramble]

Nevermind God's Word only mentions one person as being sinless, and he was Jesus. There's so much controversy with that belief.

Exactly.
^JBC: What kind of "Bible" do Roman Catholics use? Or do they? Forgive me if my questions seem rude and stupid, I'm quite ignorant as to what exactly Roman Catholics do. So my questions sound kind of... blunt. That said, here comes another silly-sounding question... Um, do you pray to Mary then? I've met very few Roman Catholics (*gasp* You're a real live Roman Catholic?) (...Just kidding...) so--I'm not sure on what they... "practice"...

But what is this thing we call "sin"? Where does it come from? Why are some things sins and others not?

Sin is defined in the Bible. It was a result of man's fall. The Bible gives us everything we need to know, and the Bible tells us what is sin, and what isn't. If you want a more philosophical answer... Hm, I probably can't give it.

QS there are no ignorant questions. We ask questions to learn and grow. There are no stupid questions.

*laughs* Yes when last I looked I'm a real live Roman Catholic.

The Catholic Church was the Church that decided which books were the inspired Word of God and which were not. We use the same Bible that everyone else uses though there are some books of the Old Testament that we consider to be inspired which most protestants do not.

Describing what Catholics 'practice' would take a great deal of time, and I'm more than happy to do so, but perhaps we could do that via PM's so as not to overtake the thread.

As for praying to Mary. I would have to say not in the way that you mean it. If you mean prayer in the sense of worship and adoration then no we do not. We honor her yes...but that is a much different thing from worship and adoration that we owe to God alone. Catholics ask Mary to pray for them, much the same way that you would ask a fellow Christian to pray for you here. There really is little difference. As it says in the Creed, "We believe in the communion of saints." We believe as it says in the book of Revelation that we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses, and that these saints are praying for us. We ask them to pray for us much as we would fellow Christians on earth.

Thanks for your question.

JBC

Draugrin, sin is everything that is not aligned with and serving God!

jbc003, just curious. How does a dead person pray for other people? I live in a predominately Roman Catholic community and I have seen people actually go as far as praying to and worshiping saints like Guadalupe, Mary, and others. And having some pretty strong relationships (friendship wise) with people who had to get out of the Roman Catholic setting up coming into the saving grace of Jesus Christ because of was clearly percieved as idol worship, I wonder often if Roman Catholics truly follow Christ or not. Mary, Guadalupe, and all the other saints are dead and are at rest. They will continue to be at rest until the Second Coming of Christ.

I also wonder what the point of praying to Mary or asking Mary to pray for us is. Why not talk to the source directly when the Bible states it clearly that path is open to all believers. I don't believe it is any Christian's responsibility to pray for someone in the sense of praying in thier stead. If someone needs prayer support, then those people should pray with that person. Now I'm not talking about praying for the world's leaders, for other missionaries, or things like that. I'm talking about someone who has a need and seeks to present it before the Throne. They can do it directly or they can do it with someone else. But you should not have someone make your requests on your behalf while you do nothing. This fits in the category of the hit-and-run prayers. If someone comes up to me, presenting a prayer request, I will pray with that person, but if that person is not praying, it is not my burden (unless God puts it on me) to carry it for that person. I hope I made that clear.

Gotta get to bed. Got a big day tomorrow at a fencing competition.

Fencer,

I can see how it would be odd coming from the perspective that you are coming from. From our perspective the souls of the dead who are saved are very much alive with Christ. They aren't at rest at all. And since we hold that they are still very much part of the Church we don't hesitate to ask them to pray for us.

I am sorry for those you have met that had that experience. If that is the case then perhaps they have misunderstood...or been taught poorly.

If it comes right down to it I think of it as an issue of charity. I think we can safely say that praying for someone is a charity. We know we are commanded to pray not only for our friends but for our enemies as well. God makes it rain on the good and the bad. We are commanded to be like that. The souls of the saved are somehow not going to become less charitable becuase they are dead. They are (from our prespective) beholding the face of God. These are going to be souls on fire with charity. There is nothing wrong with asking prayers of others.

Can people go straight to God? You bet they can. Can they ask other Christians to pray for them as well. You bet. With great respect Fencer, perhaps the people that have a hard time praying for themselves are the people that you need to pray for the most. Perhaps they are having a difficulty that you can't percieve that your prayers could assist with. God is love..and we are commanded to reflect that.

Good luck in your competition tomorrow!

JBC

Paul says that all of Jesus followers are saints or priests of his because of who he is and what he's done. I believe the 'communion of saints' therefore refers to a community of believers, ie. the Body of Christ. Not the dead saints or apostles residing with the Trinity in Heaven.

Warrior,

Indeed we are a kingdom of priests because of what he has done...you are exactly right. All the more reason to pray for each other since we can intercede on the behalf of others.

The difficulty I have with what you said is that you seem to cut off those in heaven from the Body of Christ. We are all one Church are we not? I certainly don't deny that many people hold that position on what the 'communion of saints' means, but that was not the original understanding when the creed was written.

From our perspective the saints are more alive than we are. Must as Caspian was when he was revived in Aslan's country. Its a very apt image.

JBC

Regarding Bible versions, I use KJV for personal study, and NKJV and NIV when I talk to others online. I know they don't like [or at least don't understand] the "thees," "thous," and "hasts" either. NKJV modernizes that part. But it makes me wonder if they don't like or understand Shakespeare either.

It's easy to feel superior to people who don't like Shakespeare, isn't it? But prideful. I struggle with this with people who don't like to read at all; I must be so much better educated and smarter than them, right? I have to repent of this frequently...

Agreed [regarding humility of children].

I do love when we agree on something, 220

So I’m not interested in armchair theology, in philosophical or religious debates. And I fear there’s too much of that in this thread.

But 220, those three things are what discussion forums in general and this thread in particular are about! We gather here to talk about these issues. This is armchair (or computer chair) theology at its best

And I think it's crucial that we work through the implications of what we believe, rather than blazing forward blindly in "zeal without knowledge" (Proverbs 19:2). Unfortunately, I see a lot of that in this thread too!

I think it would be better for all of us in the long run if as members of the body we tried to build one another up. Maybe along those lines, we could ask for and receive some practical, Bible-based advice on issues – personal, intellectual, social, financial, emotional [etc] – important to us

That sounds a little like a Christian "Dear Abby" blog, not a discussion forum. And as for "building one another up," I think that happens here already! Being built up doesn't always mean being told how great of Christians we are. My relationship with the Lord improves sometimes when I'm told unpleasant things about my life, areas that I've allowed sin or incorrect doctrine to creep in. If the Christians in my life were just interested in making me feel good and praising all the things I do right, I would never be challenged to grow. And God has used this thread amazingly in my life!

“Take them now or save them” ... I’ve heard this argument/prayer for awhile [mostly as a cry of desperation]. And I never really thought through it until now.

I really appreciate that you can admit this, and that you've changed your mind about how to pray for those little ones. Praise God for His work in you!

I'm a little sad we seem to have moved on entirely from the subject of Jesus/God laughing. I didn't think that conversation was really over; Jesus is 100% God, absolutely, but as God laughs in the Bible why shouldn't Christ? And so on.

The thief on the cross didn't have baptism or communion, but he went to paradise with Jesus. What's required? Faith.

Amen! Setting up anything else as a prerequisite for salvation makes Christianity a works-based, man-made system.

If we believe in the Bible's doctrine of original sin, sooner or later we have to come face to face with the fact that children — babies — possess it too. It's passed on through the male line (the big reason why it was important that Jesus not have an earthly biological father).

What does this mean? Is this why Catholics think Mary was sinless?

No, it isn't so much to do with Mary as it is with Jesus and Joseph. It's been postulated that it was important that Jesus not have a biological human father because that is how humanity's sin nature is passed on. Jesus is the only person to ever have been conceived by the Holy Spirit, and so it was possible for Him to be born without that sin nature because he did not have an earthly biological father.

When the Bible talks about our sin nature, it always refers to Adam — not Eve (see Romans 5). We all sinned in Adam. Therefore it is not necessary to make Mary out to be sinless, since the human sin nature is passed on through the male line.

wisewoman, I was proving the point that the environment can influence children at an early age. Why is this important to this discussion? It's important because that means that a Godly environment can influence youngsters even when they are not old enough to understand that it is a Godly environment.

I can agree there! However, no amount of positive environmental influences will make a child choose God. Only a sovereign work of God in that child's heart will do that. God may use a godly upbringing to prepare a person for that work He will do — or He may choose to work in other ways. The beautiful thing is that His will is always done, no matter what our background!

What does this mean? Is this why Catholics think Mary was sinless?

No, she meant that since Jesus did not have an earthly father, the sin nature wasn't passed down to him.

Speaking of that, where does it say that the sin nature was carried through the father? (Just curious.)

I find it curious that people keep saying that the sin nature is passed down from the father as well. I would like to know where it says that.

Its also interesting to note that the flip side of the argument that many people are presenting here is that the implication of this particular notion is that Jesus took his flesh from a sinful person.

JBC

JBC, ???????!!!!!!!!????????. What, could you please elaborate on that for I didn't quite get it, and what I did get is disturbing me allot?!