Ok thanks... But I do know this dream will effect me positivly cause it was the first one in a long time to make me cry, last time that happened I spent lest time on the computer cause I was afraid of it... Yah anyways...
Thanks for the help... mhm I guess I was watching a history channel episode about the nazis had an atomic bomb that could off ended the world if they had had a chance...

BTW: I'll b sure to test out my dreams with your system

No, I have not read The Visitation, but I pretty well know the gist of the story line. Interestingly enough, the only books of Peretti I have read are both Darkness books, The Oath, the first four Cooper Kids, Hangman's Curse, Nightmare Academy, and House. My parents have The Visitation and Monster, but I haven't taken the time to read it. I won't get the time until summer, due to my super busy schedule right now.

When it comes to dreams and visions, Dr. Ransom has put it very simply. If it is not completely consistant with Scripture, it is not of God. Satan can also do signs and wonders. Why does God allow him to mimic his actions? I don't know. I can only suppose it may be to test the loyalty and dedication of the saints. Your dream, narnianerd, is nothing more than a dream. As Dr. Ransom has indicated, the god of the dream does not match the God of the Bible. Was it from Satan? I won't say that either. I've had some pretty wierd dreams myself, some of which have absolutely nothing to do with anything. In most cases I just pass them off as dreams and leave it as that.

But there are certain cases where a dream or vision is from God. For example, my parents many years back had a vision in which they would be living on a mission base. This was shortly after they had joined the staff of International Family Missions. They thought for the longest time that it would be in Colorado where IFM is headquartered that this campus would be located. But in 1997, we recieved property on the US Border near El Paso as a launching pad for the mission teams that go into Juarez. They knew immediately that was where we were suppossed to go. And two years later, we moved. This was a vision from God, because a) nothing contradicted with Scripture and b) it gave us clear directions of where God wanted us to go. The Bible isn't clear on who should go to the mission field (ie away from home), so sometimes God uses dreams and visions to show people what he has in store for them down the road.

One other thing I will say about it. If a dream/vision is from God, it will have very specific details about certain things. It won't be vague and mysterious. My parents knew what the campus' function would be, even if they didn't know the location. These specific details are how God confirms what he is saying to us, so we know for sure it was from him.

Sorry about the delay, Shadowlander! I spent most of last night and this morning working on my response. If you don't hear back from me this morning, it's because I pulled a Sleeping Beauty without the spindle.

I do not like, nor have I ever liked Replacement Theology. I want you to please bear in mind that God never, ever, ever, ever breaks any of His promises. There are no conditions, no expiration dates, and no statute of limitations.

I need to apologize for a lack of clarity in my first post: I do not believe in Replacement Theology. I believe the Elect is God’s chosen people from all of history--Jew and Gentile alike; but that since 70 A.D. and the destruction of the Temple they (the Elect) are no longer concentrated in the nation and people of Israel. Israel, I believe, is just another nation now. If you would like, I can cite my reasons for believing this in greater detail…in another post. This one is already way too long.

God made a covenant between He and Abraham and that pact is in place until the world ends and God's word on any promise is solid and unbreakable. He has, from time to time, sent judgments on His people, the Jews, (captivity in Babylon, dispersal from Israel, etc) but even in that His people remained His people, the "apple of His eye", and remain so to this day.
Romans 11: 1-6

I agree with you in that God never breaks His promises. My question is whether the Abrahamic promise was given to Abraham’s descendents (i.e. the actually nation of Israel), or those who by faith believe in Abraham’s God. Another point to consider is that all the nations of the world have been blessed in the greatest way by Israel; for our Lord and Savior came from them. And yes, there is a remnant: Christian Jews like Paul!
I think it is important to read the context of a passage of anything; Scripture especially.

“But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all of Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but ‘In Isaac your seed shall be called.’ That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.”

“What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. As it is written: ‘Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and a rock of offense, and whoever believes on Him shall not be put to shame.’”

“What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest are blinded.”

One thing I should probably tell you I believe is that the term “My people Jacob” refers to all of God’s people: Jew and Gentile alike.

And further in verses 28 and 29...
Romans 11:28-29
Continuing....

Why would God’s chosen people still be the ones who committed the ultimate rejection of His Son, their Messiah, and to this day continue to reject Him?

That's the real meat of the question, isn't it? But Paul answers this too:
Romans 11:7-10

Hm, I don’t see how this proves your point. “What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did.” Ha, I just realized that I quoted the exact same verse above! I thought it sounded familiar…

The Jewish people, God's Chosen People, are experiencing a hardening of their hearts right now which makes them blind to Christ, and have been for some time. There are of course Messianic Jews but they are perpetually few in number, however this digresses from the main point, that being that the Jews covenant with God is still very much in place. God has shut their eyes to the Truth and some even attack Christianity and are among Christianity's most zealous opponents (though with the tumultuous history that Christianity has with Judaism, filled with pogroms and killings, can you really blame them?). But at an appointed time God will open their eyes and they will see that Christ is indeed the promised Messiah. There is a verse that describes this as Christ returns and Israel gazes on Him with open eyes and realizes the full extent of their mistake and weeps for Him as they would for a son. I have seen it several times but cannot recall where it is.

Must be in the Book of Hesitations (when someone in my extended family can’t find a verse, we cite it as being in the Book of Hesitations).

But if even this is not enough to convince you, take some time to answer the following questions:

Okay. Before I do so, may I say that, while these are good questions to raise, when it comes to matters of Biblical import, I prefer to argue and reason from the Bible. God’s purpose through history is somewhat harder to discern than in His revealed word. At least, it is for me.
Note: I answered Shadowlander’s points in great detail, but in doing so crossed over into what might be considered political discussion and so had to private message them to him. If anyone else is interested in reading my response, please PM and I’ll send it to you.

For brevity I have omitted several points which I could also add to the list, but I think you get the point.

When we attended the Messianic Temple, I heard these kinds of points an awful lot. Not the kinds you made before your “But if even this is not enough to convince you” line. Actually, I heard very little New Testament taught there. They were more intent on making your second set of points than preaching the Gospel or the rest of God’s word…another reason why we left.
If the points mentioned above are to prove Israel’s prosperity, and if the Abrahamic covenant were still in place to the nation of Israel alone, and Israel were going through a “hardening of their hearts right now which makes them blind to Christ”, oughtn’t they to be experiencing the opposite right now? Curses instead of blessings? God said He would bless them when they obeyed Him and curse them disobeyed Him; and if you are a Christian (you isn’t a personal you, as in you Shadowlander the person) it is a foundational belief that to reject Jesus is to reject God. Since I answered your points, would you mind explaining your position on the verses I quoted in my first post? Not trying to pick a fight with you by any means; I respect you very much and would really like to hear your response to them. And thank you for a very kind and gracious response: sadly, I have to admit that timidity, an over-awareness of my own limitations in debating and a fear/dislike of being “preached at” keeps me from posting very much in this thread, though it is one of my favorites on the forum. I’m trying to correct this, so thank you all for being patient with me. Um, I meant to say that I’m trying to correct my own silly reasons for not posting, not my enjoyment of this thread! Clarity escapes me yet again.

Thanks for that, Fencer. And we can agree on the truth that God may use visions to provide directions. But it would be very wrong to sit around and not make a choice or take a risk while waiting for some “sign.” I used to think this would be the most spiritual way to live and follow God’s will, but it’s not. Rather, follow God’s revealed will — in the Scriptures — out of love for Him, His grace and truth, and while your direction will not be perfectly clear all the time, you will not be paralyzed with indecision without some “sign” through a wet fleece or burning bush.

Dreams can be scary, that’s for sure! Just this morning I dreamed my younger brother got a girlfriend, for example. She seemed very ditzy, and in dream-world I didn’t care much about her at all. (How rude of me.) Also, earlier than that, I dreamed my boss sent me an email with a bunch of Bible verses encouraging me to work harder. (He’s not a Christian.)

What purpose could there be in that? I don’t know, but if my brother gets a girlfriend, I hope not to be rude to her even if I believe she’s not right for him or something (that would necessitate other action). And somehow I feel more like working in my day job today, for the glory of God even in that ...

I think I can back up the suggested game more specifically with Scripture. Let’s simply and call it Experience, Teaching, Scripture. But of course, the rules are different. Scissors can cut paper and rocks can damage scissors, and paper can cover rock. However, personal Experience and Christian Teaching sometimes beat each other — and Scripture (the revealed Word) beats both previous items. Sometimes experience beats experience, but only if it’s backed up by Teaching which in turn is backed up by Scripture. And if Teaching contradicts Scripture, guess which wins this time.

(Now again, maybe it’s me, but when I read books or columns that come to long Scripture quotations, I tend to skim out of some depraved notion that I’ve already heard it before and I want to get to the new stuff. Maybe you’re not as horrible as that, too, but in case you are, don’t do it here! I have nothing worthwhile to say unless I can back it up Biblically!)

Scripture beats Teaching

And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, “Is it lawful to divorce one’s wife for any cause?” [Jesus] answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.”

Matthew 19: 3-6 (ESV)

Scripture beats Experience; Scripture beats Teaching; Teaching beats Experience (but only if supported by Scripture)

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.

For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man’s gospel. For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

Galatians 1: 6-12 (ESV)

Experience beats Teaching (but only if supported by Scripture)

For you have heard of my former life in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God violently and tried to destroy it. And I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people, so extremely zealous was I for the traditions of my fathers. But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone; nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.

Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and remained with him fifteen days. But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord’s brother. (In what I am writing to you, before God, I do not lie!) Then I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia. And I was still unknown in person to the churches of Judea that are in Christ. They only were hearing it said, “He who used to persecute us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy.” And they glorified God because of me.

Galatians 1: 13-24 (ESV)

Experience beats Teaching (but only if supported by Scripture); Scripture beats Experience, Scripture beats Teaching

For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For when he received honor and glory from God the Father, and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,” we ourselves heard this very voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain. And we have something more sure, the prophetic word, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

2 Peter 2: 16-21 (ESV)

Scripture beats Everything

But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.
2 Timothy 3: 14-17 (ESV)

Finally, I’d like to hear more about all the end-times fervor of the past that you mentioned yesterday, Mother-Music. I’ve been only familiar on the surface for a while about previous Christian crazes — I developed a working knowledge based on what’s found on your parents’ bookshelves: such as The Late Great Planet Earth, Chuck Colson, Josh McDowell, ICR-age creation-science apologetics, Billy Graham, and a book called Turmoil in the Toy Box about New Age TV shows and action figures of the ‘80s. But to a lot of younger Christians (myself included!) we forget that especially when it comes to fears of The End, there is truly nothing new under the sun.

I am old enough, though, to remember a little of the whole World Will End In 1988/1989 fracas, along with when Hal Lindsey was still popular and it was the Cold War that would turn into a Very Thermonuclear Hot War, and that would usher in The End. He had it all figured out. It all collapsed right along with the Berlin Wall. Even more vividly of course, I remember about a decade later, when the notion also collapsed that the World Will Start Ending Even More When the Computer Chips Suddenly Think It’s 1900 and That Will Lead to the Rise of the Beast from the Sea of Global Chaos.

And just this sort of thing has also been going on ever since the churches of the last millennium.

See a trend here?

Now the next great End-Times villains are radical Islamicists — again, based on contemporary fears and not the Bible directly. End-times villains’ supposed identities have varied throughout history.

Now maybe Russia will still someday become the Biblical “Magog,” but it’s wrong to speculate all that much, holding the books of Daniel and Revelation next to a stack of newspapers and trying to work it all out. Of those 347 reports, can you name at least three, Mother-Music?

I think part of the problem may be not necessarily bad end-times doctrines, but quite simply, insular thinking based on limited Christian environments and experience.

This is why it is so important to spend time with Christians who agree on the Gospel, but have difference sin the nonessential areas, and who have different focuses in doctrine and practice than we do. (Are we not in effect doing so here on this very discussion thread?) That’s part of the diversity of spiritual gifts among the body of Christ that Paul explains in 1 Corinthians 14. Not all people have the same gifts (with perhaps excesses in those areas, or deficiencies in others) — and yes, that includes the gift of tongues. Some teach very well. Some show mercy to others. Some have sharp discernment. Some may overdo the end-times stuff, and some may underdo the end-times stuff, and thus may in the local church come to balance each other out. All are Christ’s.

It’s also helpful to keep track of all the recent nothing-new-under-the-sun Christian crazes and realize that the same ones tend to cycle over: liberalism, separationism, health/wealth/prosperity nonsense, lower-calorie health/wealth/prosperity nonsense (i.e. The Prayer of Jabez), I-love-Jesus-but-hate-the-Church-ism, Megachurchism, small-a-church-ism, too much right-wing politics, too much left-wing politics, Moral Development while leaving out Christ’s sanctifying grace, etc.

... And especially overemphasis on end-times speculations, which too often detract from the Gospel and, as I wrote above, disillusions Christians and perhaps worse, nonbelievers who equate all the speculation with Scripture itself and end up throwing it all out.

Well, I'm not Mother-Music, but I heard a few doomsday stories (both denominational and secular), and there are a few theories on their popularity.

Fear the killer bees. Fear them!

Or not.

While fascinating, sometimes people are more involved with the Second Coming of Christ than they are with the First. But I find people's reactions to these things interesting in themselves.

On the representations of God, didn't someone once say that God is the color of love?

Now maybe Russia will still someday become the Biblical “Magog,” but it’s wrong to speculate all that much, holding the books of Daniel and Revelation next to a stack of newspapers and trying to work it all out. Of those 347 reports, can you name at least three, Mother-Music?

Finally, I’d like to hear more about all the end-times fervor of the past that you mentioned yesterday, Mother-Music. I’ve been only familiar on the surface for a while about previous Christian crazes — I developed a working knowledge based on what’s found on your parents’ bookshelves: such as The Late Great Planet Earth, Chuck Colson, Josh McDowell, ICR-age creation-science apologetics, Billy Graham, and a book called Turmoil in the Toy Box about New Age TV shows and action figures of the ‘80s. But to a lot of younger Christians (myself included!) we forget that especially when it comes to fears of The End, there is truly nothing new under the sun.

Before I answer these (in what will ultimately be rather an unsatisfactory way), I do want to point out on 220’s part that she did mention that it wasn’t The End she was talking about, but just the potential of persecution in the near future. I still say; maybe, maybe not. And if so, fine. If not, also fine. Got work to do.

Now: Mostly my 347 things (a random number picked out of the air, fyi) amount to what you mentioned above. I think the first time it really was brought home to me was when I was around 16 or so and saw (what was probably) a Billy Graham production film designed to scare people into becoming Christians. It scared me into making sure my best friends were “saved.” Interestingly, they weren’t even though they thought they were, and later found Christ while I was wandering away. Also read The Late Great Planet Earth around this time. Let’s see…that would have been about 1976.

The next outstanding incident I remember in conjunction with End Times was when my future husband sat at the table with me and my parents and explained to them that he’d seen a blood-red moon a few nights before, and he wanted us to get married sooner rather than later because he wanted to be married before Jesus came back! circa 1980.

After that, a year or so into the marriage we moved to a place where I was somewhat secluded, and I made the radio my friend. Thing was, I was listening to “Christian” radio, and the large majority of the preachers were winding up fervently on End Times. I wish I could remember the details, but *insert your personal acceptable emphatic exclamation* it really sounded BAD!!! I actually became so worried about it that I thought I was going to go crazy . I stopped listening to the stuff cold-turkey just to remain sane . It was probably similar to the stuff you mentioned above. circa 1982

Read and implemented a lot of the Turmoil in the Toybox stuff when the kids were little . I still feel that discernment should be used in choosing toys for our children: but I no longer believe that there are certain ones that are demon-inhabited right from the store …circa 1987.

Since then I have refused to concern myself with it except that directly after my husband was killed I fantasized sometimes that one night I’d wake up to find him standing by the bed and smiling, trumpets blowing in the background, and he’d say “come on, babe…it’s time to go!” (just a coping mechanism, of course, and not based on solid eschatology.)

I repeat: I believe that if we are not doing today what we would be doing if we knew the End Times were here, then we should fix that. That’s one of the points of those parables I mentioned a few pages back…the faithful servants weren’t looking for signs that the master was returning: they were working as if his return was expected immediately.

Sorry I couldn't be more specific, dear Dr., but it's a reflection of my current eschatology, so I guess that's ok!

mm

Just a few quick points...

I may not have been talking about the very end, but I think it's just around the corner. And persecution will be integral to that. I'm convinced this world won't be standing a decade from now. When will the 7-year tribulation begin? Next year? A year or two after that? That's what I think. But you can think what you want.

One thing I should probably tell you I believe is that the term “My people Jacob” refers to all of God’s people: Jew and Gentile alike.

Really? I always thought "Jacob" referred to the Jews. What are your thoughts on this verse? "Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it" [Jer 30].

The Jewish people, God's Chosen People, are experiencing a hardening of their hearts right now which makes them blind to Christ, and have been for some time. There are of course Messianic Jews but they are perpetually few in number, however this digresses from the main point, that being that the Jews covenant with God is still very much in place. God has shut their eyes to the Truth and some even attack Christianity and are among Christianity's most zealous opponents (though with the tumultuous history that Christianity has with Judaism, filled with pogroms and killings, can you really blame them?). But at an appointed time God will open their eyes and they will see that Christ is indeed the promised Messiah. There is a verse that describes this as Christ returns and Israel gazes on Him with open eyes and realizes the full extent of their mistake and weeps for Him as they would for a son. I have seen it several times but cannot recall where it is.

Must be in the Book of Hesitations (when someone in my extended family can’t find a verse, we cite it as being in the Book of Hesitations).

Shadowlander, are you referring to the following passages?

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Gotta run...

I may not have been talking about the very end, but I think it's just around the corner. And persecution will be integral to that. I'm convinced this world won't be standing a decade from now. When will the 7-year tribulation begin? Next year? A year or two after that? That's what I think. But you can think what you want.

I'm genuinely curious - what are your reasons for thinking this? (I'm not trying to stir up conflict, I just like understanding why people believe the way they do.)

PrincessRosario: why do I think this? Because of what I've read and seen [Youtube, respected newspapers and websites] regarding the topics below. The world as we know it is basically over. The signs of the times are everywhere. Even secular people in the media, with their eyes open, have acknowledged or seem to sense this. I posted the following on pg 18.

But what's gonna happen [in the works] in the next 6 mos-2 years doesn't look good. Look up the following topics online: Real ID Act, biometrics, VeriChip, swine flu vaccine [= eugenics, has a microchip in it, and if mandated you may go to a "camp" of sorts if you don't comply], death of the Internet [next 3-5 years]. See what you find...

The vaccine has already been mandated in Iowa and Georgia. I can send you some links via PM if you want.

Thanks for posting those verses, 220. I was going nuts trying to find them but many of my reference materials and books are in boxes (please...don't go there) and I thought I'd lost my mind there for a bit. It turns out it was in Avra's Book of Hesitations.

PrincessRosario: why do I think this? Because of what I've read and seen [Youtube, respected newspapers and websites] regarding the topics below.

220, I would urge much caution here. Like MM and Doc Ransom I've been around a while and I've seen these things come and go, and all have been nothing more than proverbial flashes in the pan. I think The Late, Great Planet Earth is a fascinating read, albeit very dated by today's standards. Some of it may pan out someday, but not as Lindsay originally "foresaw" it. He later released a book called A Prophetical Walk Through the Holy Land and it is a treasured book to me, not because of his interpretations of Prophecy (which as I said are indeed very interesting stuff), but because they are filled with some of the most beautiful scenes of Israel you'll ever see. He even has full page battle maps at the tail end of the book complete with air and armor forces and giant red movement arrows as they move in to finally finish Israel off for good. I love the book but the fact is it turned out to be largely wrong.

I remember well the terror of 1988 when some pastor somewhere released a book called "88 Reasons the Rapture Will Occur on September 8th, 1988". People sold their pets, houses, and all their belongings, and then on September 9th woke up and realized that nothing had happened, except they had become the laughingstock of non-Christians everywhere.

Playing the prognosticator is tricky business and in the end. Looking at youtube videos, websites and "respected" newspapers (and that's a real stretch because there's few papers I trust to report honestly anymore as they are human and have their own agendas) is fine, but basing any kind of theological assumption on them is just downright dangerous. These are all things of man, not of God. Now I'm not discounting that God may use such things to bring His will to fruition or as a teaching tool for Christians, but to predict the end of the world based upon that (even in moderation!) is risky at best. Stick with the Bible. That is of God and is 100% reliable. It tells us all we really need to know, even if it doesn't provide an exact timeframe for when the End will come. Go on with your life and be prepared for when the Master finally arrives, but don't put things into it that aren't there.

There's an old adage that comes to mind. A pot of water will never boil if you're sitting there watching it.

This also remindes me of the Y2k bug that caused a massive panic. It was completely bogus. I had an instructor in Jr High that was heavily concerned about it and would frequently play videos telling us what would happen. Well, midnight Jan 1 2000 arrived and the worst thing that happened was temporary rise of prices due to ships being docked due to the fear.

Now are we saying everything we are saying is bogus? Absolutely not. We don't know when the time will come so while we are saying 'don't be so certain that this is it' we also need to be saying 'this could be it'. So as it's been said several times: live your life as though it was going to happen today, but also live your life as though its a long way down the road. You need to be ready for both cases. That's why we should not drop ambitions for education or career paths, etc. That's why we should not just drop our current job and jump into a cellar stockloaded with canned goods (and do NOT forget the can opener).

There is one thing that Satan wants us Christians to do just as much as turn away from our walk with Christ: stay away from the world. Satan knows he can't get us in the long run so he is going to seek to keep us from doing as little damage to his kingdom as possible. He's not just out trying to get us to turn back to our sinful old-selves. He also trying to get us in a perpetual panic mode and to get us away from the 'front lines'.

220, you have repeatedly expressed your desire for missions. One thing I do know about the end times is that is won't occur until every nation, tribe, and tongue has been reached with the Gospel. Now I want you to think about this. If the End Times is going to occur in the next year or two, then that would mean every one had been reached with the Gospel in some way, shape or form. The way you have been describing your approach to the impending catastophe is telling me that missions won't matter any more because the time is already up and the rapture will occur. I'm not sure you can truly hold both views you have expressed at the same time. Should we be cautious about the end times? Absolutely. But there is nothing we haven't seen before even in our young lifetimes (I'm only a couple years younger than you). We will never know what time God is going to show up, so we have to be alert and ready for when that time comes. But at the same time, God gave us work to do in the meantime. And when God returns, he wants to see us doing those tasks he has given us as though he wasn't there.

I'm simply trying to say not to panic about this. Don't try to predict it, but be wary about what is going on. I have no plans on taking the H1N1 vaccine, and I certainly will never allow a chip implant to be imbedded under my skin. I am also not too keen on a number of the security systems being offered. Yes, they keep you protected, but how do you know the government isn't going to be watching your every move at some point. I am also wary about all the 'turn your gold into cash' deals seen all over the TV. One of the ads said it was a government operation. What happens when the government gets all the gold? We get devalued money and the goverment has even more power. This is not a turn against governemnt rant here, but listing examples of how we can be watchful of how the end times might be carried out. Am I worried about the end times? No. I know God will provide what I need when I need it. Am I going to be lazy and not be proactive at the same time? Still no. I am seeking to be wise as a serpent, innocent as a dove, watching, waiting, and continuing doing the last things God has told me to do.

I thought Y2K was stupid. I didn't really "prepare" for it. I haven't read anything by Hal Lindsay. And I think anyone who gives a specific year for Jesus to return isn't too bright. [But I've wondered in the last year or two about Rosh Hashanah being a fulfillment of the rapture. ] At the same time, I think some planned events [by various governments] in the near future that I've heard or read about are totally abnormal. Both Christians and non-Christians sense this. Am I feeding on this stuff? No. I've not taken great interest in it. But I also think people should be warned. Because no one seems to realize what's coming. Next year [January?], many states in the US will require biometrics to get or renew a driver's license!

I'm not like the disciples who stood gazing up into heaven wondering when Jesus would return [Acts 1]. But I know others who are. My attitude toward all this IS evangelism! I think we must work now, and harder, before it's too late! "I must work the works of Him that sent Me, while it is day; the night cometh when no man can work" [John 9]. At the same time, what did Jesus say for us to do when He returns? "Look up and lift up your heads, for your redemption draweth nigh" [Luke 21]. I have a problem with people who look for Jesus but don't tell others about Jesus. I also have a problem with people who tell others about Jesus but aren't looking for Jesus, as though we'll all still be here 20-30 [or more] years from now, as though we'll see our children grow up. We won't. We must work the fields ripe with harvest while also keeping our spiritual eyes and ears open so we won't be like those wicked servants caught unawares.

Many of my reference materials and books are in boxes (please...don't go there)

I won't go there. You wanna know why? I'm in the same boat. Empathy, friend, empathy

Why, why, why is it doing this centered stuff?

re: swine flu vaccine

The only place you're required to get it is in the military and if you are a health care worker (makes sense). I'm not sure where a micro-chip and concentration camps factor into that...

I respect your position on the end-times. While I don't necessarily agree (I find it hard to believe that I won't be around to see my children grow up, etc, because everyone in the past 2000 years has thought the same thing), I do appreciate your focus on missions and witnessing! Too many Christians disregard that, and it really is too bad.

That said, I don't think it's "our fault" if someone isn't led to Christ. It's God's job to change hearts, not ours. While we definitely should spread the gospel as much as we can, the whole attitude of "we need to tell people because we'll be blamed if we don't!" is essentially putting our efforts higher than God's plan. We have no power to change a heart - only He can do that.

I hope it's ok to post links...I'm assuming it is, since others have done so many times.

I read the referenced blog frequently, and found this article I read today particularly applicable both to the current discussion of end times and one only a few topics back concerning God's secret will and His revealed will. In particular, Gandalf's Beard may find it helpful as a brief summary of this doctrine that should help make sense of some of the banter and discussion on this thread as well as point to specific scripture and some great hermeneutics that support it.

God's Secret and Revealed Will

And now, with hopes that we can move on from the end times subject, because honestly, folks...the horse really is dead and beating it is causing quite a stink...the following is my promised post concerning the book I have been reading on worship. The book is titled Words, Music, and the Church by Erik Routley. It is an older book, circa 1966. An interesting side note about the contents is that Mr. Routley makes a case at one point that pop music will never enter the church, because the church has no use for it...well, sorry Mr. Routley.

Here is some selected background from the book and the question that I hope intrigues us all enough to discuss for a post or two:

The truth which needs to be emphasized in Protestant circles above aoo others, when Christian worship is under discussion, is that worship is essentially drama...worship is drama. It cannot be anything else. It is corporate action. It is equally important to point out that it is not what people often think of as drama--and in doing this we are doing exactly what we have just been doing with church music. "Drama"...has a connotation just as narrow as that which we have been saying has damaged the image of church music.

To be specific: what we do not here mean is that worship is an entertainment put on at one end of a building for the amusement of people at the other end...drama is an action performed by people set aside to do it, and designed to involve an audience...

Ideally then, worship needs to harmonize the elements of remoteness and nearness, the ideas of family and of the symbolic people of God...what is always true is that to lose sight of the dramatic factor in worship is to lose altogether the key to making worship practical as well as beautiful.

Church music is part of the drama of worship and the question for us is what part we can expect it to play in the developments of the drama of worship which we are now witnessing. Church music is at the same time the most powerful generator of a sense of remoteness and scale, and also the most useful medium for congregational participation, being both rhythmical and rational. We are not saying that worship ought to be drama. We are saying that it inescapably is drama. This is the best answer to anybody who accuses musical worship of being a concert or performed sermon-centered worship of being a lecture, or sacramental worship of being a superstitious mummery.

What think you, oh masters of mental mastication? Shall we chew on this for a bit?

Is worship drama? Does scripture support this idea? And if so, what implications does that have for scriptural worship? What implications does it have for what-we-do-when-we-get-together-as-a-Christian-family (assuming that is not the same as worship, if it's different)?

mm

When I think of the word 'drama' I think of either conflict or an act (staged play like in a live theater, a skit, or something like that). So I'm not quite sure what to make of that right now. Using the latter of those two meaning I think of, drama can be worship and worship can occur using a drama. I often use a drama to illustrate spiritual warfare using my fencing gear as a visual aid. This is an act of worship, because it shows how God can overcome the forces of darkenss. But if you are going on something else, MM, you might want to re-iterate the approach you are trying to explore, because if it's not one of the two meanings I gave, I don't know what you're going after.

On a totally seperate note, I am leaving this afternoon for an Intervarsity retreat. It's going to be a good time to get away with other college students from my relative regional area (from El Paso its 500+ miles to anywhere in any direction). One of the things we're going to be doing is preparing for the 2009 Urbana Convention. 220, Urbana would be a perfect place for you. One week in St. Louis with over 23,000 college students with one theme: missions. Urbana is truly a change-your-life experience (I get the rare privelege of going twice as a student). It was at Urbana that I received my call to go into full-time ministry with youth. Six months later as a counselor at a youth camp, that call was confirmed. Urbana exposes us to what is going on outside our bubble and they understand that there is more to missions than just reaching out to the poor. Last time they had a track on how to use your buisness as a ministry. They also have seminars and sessions for practically anything you want to talk about. It's crazy awesome. It's one thing to talk about it. It's something else to experience it.