Let’s take a little trip back to the beginning of time. As humans, we haven’t been to heaven and don’t know what it’s like but the Bible tells us how great it will be, yet not only Lucifer, the brightest of angels, but also a third of the angels, who have seen and been a part of God’s glory firsthand, obviously didn’t think it was that great, and what Lucifer offered was better, for they followed him straight out of heaven. Also, if God was so powerful why did Lucifer think he could replace him?

You're misreading the situation a bit. The angels that followed Lucifer couldn't see what he was offering and judge that it was better than what God had. They could only see their own desire for God's power, once Lucifer suggested to them that they might be able to have that power for themselves. It was a matter of pride and jealousy - the root of all of the created world's misery. Lucifer wanted God's glory for himself, and goaded a third of the angels into being as scandalized as him that they were "under God" and not gods themselves.

What point were you trying to make here? That heaven is "not so great after all"? Ever read The Great Divorce by our very own C.S. Lewis?

Oh, and if you're going to talk about Lucifer, please make sure to keep straight what's from the Bible and what's from Milton's Paradise Lost, the latter of which is hardly anything resembling a source of authority.

True. I also think Dante's Divine Comedy has led people to believe that the characters/places/themes therein, about Heaven, Purgatory (non-biblical), Hell, angels, demons, God, Satan etc. are purely biblical. They're not.
I'm going to have try reading Paradise Lost again.

Oh, and if you're going to talk about Lucifer, please make sure to keep straight what's from the Bible and what's from Milton's Paradise Lost, the latter of which is hardly anything resembling a source of authority.

Yes, but it's so much fun! (I will restrain myself from repeating the hilarious comments of various professors on Paradise Lost)

TBG

You're misreading the situation a bit. The angels that followed Lucifer couldn't see what he was offering and judge that it was better than what God had. They could only see their own desire for God's power, once Lucifer suggested to them that they might be able to have that power for themselves...Lucifer wanted God's glory for himself, and goaded a third of the angels into being as scandalized as him that they were "under God" and not gods themselves.

A nice paragraph, but it dodged the question. If God is so powerful, why is there any thought by those living with and seeing him that they can take is power? And if heaven is so wonderful, why were they unhappy with their place in it?

She didn't dodge the question, she just didn't answer it in full.

1. Because God still gave them Free Will, the ability to choose. They fell for Lucifer's deception, believing that they could be their own masters under his rule.

2. We don't know their thoughts but they were filled with pride and greed; it consumed them. They were given everything, but they wanted more and probably thought of nothing else. When you're focused on yourself and your own wants and desires, you don't think about others and the consequences of your actions. You just take action, the consequences be damned (excuse the pun). They probably took a more subtle road away from God's Truth. Sin can look pretty enticing sometimes. It doesn't have to be all evil cackling and grinding teeth to be evil. It isn't often that easily recognisable. If it were, we would possibly struggle with sin less.

What I've always been curious about is how Lucifer decided to betray God. How did the thought enter his mind? Was it a spur of the moment decision or a more methodical, planned process? Then the question would be, 'how could God allow evil in Heaven for that time?' I think this is beyond human understanding. It's not covered in the Bible. It would be incredibly interesting but that's not the focus of His book.

All you did was apply human reasoning to angels (not humans) and restate my question.

Wow. You are difficult to please, aren't you?
I did not just restate your question. Yes, I applied human reasoning but I'm not an angel, fallen or non. How do you expect me to answer as if I were an angel?

Sorry, I'm probably confusing you and myself more than anything. Maybe someone else might be able to explain it better.

Sorry if I'm difficult Of course the purpose of a discussion is to find answers, eh?

Here's what I'm thinking about, just running over in my mind (and here):

Man was made in the image of God - not angels (so far as we know). Man has problems such as greed, lust for power, etcetera (if I may borrow a quote from Tolkien, "Men above all others desire power" or something like that) are human issues. Of course animals have little power struggles, but in nature it is the strong who survive, with man anybody can if they find a way. So perhaps the angels do have some of our passions, but from what I've read about them today I doubt it (we actually talked about angels & demons at church tonight).

The only conclusion I can come to is that Satan decieved them (big surprise, huh?), but that still takes us back to the questions: if heaven was so great, who would they risk it, and if God were so powerful, why would they question it?

No, no, discussion is good. What I meant was that I'm just an ordinary person, not a big-wig theologian. I don't know much about these things. Yes, I imagine you're right in saying that angels had passions but I think we may only have a slice of what they have (being fallen and all).

Notice Greek gods and goddesses for example weren't without fault? They would've been easier to relate to because they acted like naughty (but immortal) children. Why would anyone want gods/goddesses like that? If there's one for almost anything, how does that make gods special?
The Christian God is different. He is but One God, sovereign and ruler of everything. But he is also merciful and just and purely holy. Not easy to relate to but when you have someone that's great than you, looking out for you, someone that can do no wrong, I would think that's a comforting thought. To add to this God did make himself relatable to us through coming to Earth in human form. To walk our lands, experience temptation etc. and ultimately suffer, die and rise to new life. He was fully God and fully man. Yes, another seemingly nonsensical paradox but Christian belief is filled with them. At some point things have to be taken on faith.

Lucifer did deceive God and his angels, he is after all referred to as the Father of Lies but God is both omnipotent and omnipresent, there's no doubt that he knew Lucifer was planning a mutiny. But again, he gave them Free Will to choose. I'm not sure I can say much more to answer you (other than my post at the top and a little bit in this post).

Exodus 20
5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

If one is to take the Bible Literally, then God here is admitting to the Sin of Jealousy, W4J. How is this different from the Greek Gods?

1 Samuel 15
2 This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'

Here God orders via Samuel the slaughter of all, including "children and infants." Is this "merciful"?

Not to mention that further on God tells Samuel to admonish Saul for NOT killing all of the livestock and taking it as plunder.

Numbers 31: 17-18:
17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

This is Moses speaking on behalf of God. But, as some have pointed out in prior posts this could just be a description of Bronze Age behaviour not a Prescription by God, right? Right?

Numbers 31
25 The LORD said to Moses, 26 "You and Eleazar the priest and the family heads of the community are to count all the people and animals that were captured. 27 Divide the spoils between the soldiers who took part in the battle and the rest of the community. 28 From the soldiers who fought in the battle, set apart as tribute for the LORD one out of every five hundred, whether persons, cattle, donkeys, sheep or goats. 29 Take this tribute from their half share and give it to Eleazar the priest as the LORD's part. 30 From the Israelites' half, select one out of every fifty, whether persons, cattle, donkeys, sheep, goats or other animals. Give them to the Levites, who are responsible for the care of the LORD's tabernacle." 31 So Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses.
32 The plunder remaining from the spoils that the soldiers took was 675,000 sheep, 33 72,000 cattle, 34 61,000 donkeys 35 and 32,000 women who had never slept with a man.

Or not! Apparently God not only approves of the slaughter of all except virgins, but commands dividing them up as spoils of war.

Were I to take all of this Literally, I would have to assume that Old Testament God was every bit as Capricious and Sinful as the Greek Gods.

Fortunately I don't take the Bible Literally .

GB

then God here is admitting to the Sin of Jealousy, W4J.

God has a right to be jealous---jealousy is only a sin if one has no right. A husband has a right to be jealous of his wife's affections.

Or not! Apparently God not only approves of the slaughter of all except virgins, but commands dividing them up as spoils of war.

Are you saying that God is being unjust? God's wrath is holy and just.

Here God orders via Samuel the slaughter of all, including "children and infants." Is this "merciful"?

Yes---He didn't kill them earlier.

TBG

Well, I think we need to look into the purpose of the Greek and Jewish gods. Greek gods were fabricated to fulfill the wants of man (sex, wealth, beauty, strength), the Jewish God was fabricated to fulfill the needs of himself (i.e. those who led his followers), but that's a discussion for another time.

I would be interested to hear your take on the angels and demons thing, TBG.

I would be interested to hear your take on the angels and demons thing, TBG.

I don't say anything because the Bible really is silent as to why Satan fell. As much as I love the fanciful descriptions in Milton or Van der Vondel's Lucifer, they are attempts to explain what Scripture does not say. Theological speculation is not something I engage in: I am more concerned with what the Scriptures say than I am with what they do not.

TBG

...if heaven was so great, who would they risk it, and if God were so powerful, why would they question it?

Satan et al didn't question God's power: they wanted it for themselves. That's a pretty significant distinction.

As for not being satisfied with heaven - again, I encourage you to check out The Great Divorce. It's my favorite take on the subject of how our desires and choices affect our perception/experience of heaven and hell, and the bonus is that it's fiction, not a theological treatise: so it can be enjoyed by just about anybody.

My short answer is that anyone who turns inward, and becomes more concerned with themselves than with others, grows blind to reality and truth at an alarming rate. Lewis, in the aforementioned book, puts it that reality itself becomes painful and unendurable to these people, because it does not align with their own self-interest, which has become their god in place of God. A single leaf in heaven is too heavy for them to lift; the blades of grass are so much more solid and real than they are that they become painful to walk on. It's an interesting idea, and one that has the ring of truth when you observe how self-absorption destroys people in everyday life.