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Sir Gawain and the Green Knight

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jewel
(@jewel)
NarniaWeb Nut

I've read Tolkien's translation and the translation in the Norton Anthology of English literature. The verse translations by Marie Borroff are also helpful. Sir Gawain and the Green Knight is one of my works of literature. 

This post was modified 2 years ago by jewel
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Posted : April 25, 2022 7:38 pm
Pattertwigs Pal
(@twigs)
Member Moderator

I just started section II. I really enjoyed how the author

Spoiler
describes the passing year. "After Christmas came the crabbed Lenten that with fish tries the flesh and with food more meager" describes the changing season and adds feeling to it. I get the sense that meat is missed. I like the interplay between religious holidays and seasons and nature. I'm not sure why I am so taken with a description of changing seasons. What do you think of the part talking about the passing year? II 22-23


NW sister to Movie Aristotle & daughter of the King

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Posted : June 7, 2022 9:24 pm
Pattertwigs Pal
(@twigs)
Member Moderator

I just finished section II. I think I have been watching and listening to too many mysteries because I suspect

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the lord of the land of lying about where the Green Chapel is.
I also find it odd that
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the lord of the land would go hunting and tell the handsome young knight to stay and keep his beautiful wife company. It has been a while since I have read Arthurian stories but love affairs between knights and married women happen at least twice. What type of gain does the lord of the land expect Gawain to gain that can be traded for his hunting gains?


NW sister to Movie Aristotle & daughter of the King

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Posted : August 22, 2022 1:44 pm
Narnian78
(@narnian78)
NarniaWeb Guru

I would recommend reading Tolkien’s translation of Sir Gawain even if you have read the poem in another translation.  Tolkien was an expert on medieval literature and you might like it as much as The Lord of the Rings.  It would have been interesting if Tolkien had made a translation Mallory’s King Arthur stories. I wonder what C.S. Lewis would have done with them, but it seemed that he preferred writing his own stories over translating other people’s works of literature. Both Lewis and Tolkien gave us so much of the medieval world. 🙂

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Posted : August 26, 2022 3:56 am
Meltintalle
(@mel)
Member Moderator

@twigs re: second spoiler: You're right, that is an odd bargain to make with a guest. Do you think the host wants

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a. An excuse to give Gawain a gift?

b. Is he not as trustworthy as he seems?

c. Is a test to see if Gawain is trustworthy?

We have hands that fashion and heads that know,
But our hearts we lost - how long ago! -- G. K. Chesterton

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Topic starter Posted : August 26, 2022 1:43 pm
Pattertwigs Pal
(@twigs)
Member Moderator

@mel I definitely don't think it is option a. 

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I think a test of some kind is possible. (c) Or a trap of some kind, which would be close to b. I wouldn't be surprised either way but I am favoring the idea of a trap. I doubt it will be a quiet day for Gawain unless they just sit around and play games for money.


NW sister to Movie Aristotle & daughter of the King

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Posted : August 28, 2022 2:12 pm
Pattertwigs Pal
(@twigs)
Member Moderator

@mel @inkling

When I was reading I noticed that there was a mention of a Sir Wawain. It seemed  odd but as it seemed to be a question of identity I thought maybe there was a knight called Wawain. I found it again a little later and that time it did seem to be about identity. See the passages below.

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III 49-50
"For I wot well indeed that Sir Wawain you are ..." "Upon my word," said Gawain, "that is well, I guess; but I am not now he of whom you are speaking.

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III 52
Then said Wawain

I was wondering  why the term Wawain  appeared. 

I have finsihed the 3rd part. It seems like a bad idea for Gawin to

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keep the green riband after he made an agreemegnt wirh the king to trade  what they got during the day.


NW sister to Movie Aristotle & daughter of the King

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Posted : December 11, 2022 2:07 pm
Inkling
(@inkling)
NarniaWeb Newbie

Right, thanks for the A2A, Twig’s! And Happy New Year, everyone! How appropriate for the Gawain story. 😘 

Without going into too much detail, Sir Gawain and the Green Knight is a Middle English poem that has retained the metrical style of Old English poetry. In other words, the form of the poetry was already somewhat old-fashioned at the time it was written.

Old English poetry relies most on alliteration, rather than rhyme. Each line is split into two, and there are usually two main words on the first half that set the alliteration, and one more main word on the second half that echoes it.  There are of course variations: sometimes you will get two main alliterated words in the second half, or you’ll get double alliteration. Some of the alliterative techniques that you find in Gawain you wouldn’t find in Beowulf, because the form has still developed over time. Vowels are allowed to alliterate with one another, and certain consonant clusters will not (sp does not alliterate with st).

Let’s look at some examples:

That is the ryche ryal king | of the Rounde Table,      a a | a x (normal)

And hit watz Wawen himself | that in that won syttez,

Comen to that Krystmasse, | as case hym then lymped.

When the lorde hade learned | that he the leude hade,

Loude laghed he therat, | so lef hit hym thought, (ll. 905-909)

. . .

And the teccheles termes | of talking noble,

Wich spede is in speche | unspurd may we lerne,

Syn we haf fonged that fine | fader of nurture.

God hatz geven us | his grace godly for sothe,

That such a gest as Gawan | grauntez us to have. (ll. 917-921)

(Text taken from The Broadview Anthology of British Literature: Concise Edition, Vol. A, 3rd ed. [Peterborough: Broadview Press, 2017]])

In line 906, “Wawen” is needed to alliterate with w, while in line 921, “Gawan” is needed for the alliteration with g. So, to fit the rule for alliteration, the poet sometimes uses an alternative for Gawain’s name as you noted. 

When translating an older poem into modern English, translators have to decide whether the meaning is more important to capture than the experience of reading it. Many now choose to do blank verse or even turn it into prose, so that the meaning is closer.  Tolkein is totally the kind of translator who would want to retain features of the original poetry, while still trying to be faithful to the meaning. It's very hard to do. But I assume that that's why he also occasionally uses "Wawain"--he's also trying to convey the alliterative style.

In terms of why Gawain can also be called “Wawen,” a quick glance at his page on Wikipedia shows that he goes by a number of different names, depending on the tradition, language, etc. It looks as though his Welsh name starts with a Gw-, so different languages or storytellers went with G or W, depending on what they preferred.

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Posted : January 1, 2023 2:24 pm
Courtenay liked
Pattertwigs Pal
(@twigs)
Member Moderator

Mod note: This thread will be closed at the end of the month. If there is anything else you would like to discuss, please post before then. After the thread is closed, feel free to continue discussing in the the books thread in the Spare Oom.


NW sister to Movie Aristotle & daughter of the King

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Posted : December 21, 2024 10:14 am
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