Deep stuff, Pattertwigs Pal, as usual!

Tash is allowed inside the stable as his evil self. I don't think in his fallen form Satan would be allowed in Heaven.

Well, what are your thoughts on the following passages?

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. And the LORD said to Satan, “From where do you come?” So Satan answered the LORD and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.” . . . And the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person.” So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD. . . .Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD. And the LORD said to Satan, “From where do you come?” Satan answered the LORD and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.”

Then Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by, on His right hand and on His left. And the LORD said, ‘Who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?’ So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner. Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, and said, ‘I will persuade him.’ The LORD said to him, ‘In what way?’ So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the LORD said, ‘You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.’"

Oops. I forgot about that part in Job. I didn't do my research very well did I? Well, I'm doing it now. I looked up that section in Job, and it referenced Revelation 12:10. I looked a few verses earlier and found:

7And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

10Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
"Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Christ.
For the accuser of our brothers,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.

Apparently Satan can still visit heaven until the end. *is heading up to correct her previous post*
I'm not sure exactly what the verses from Kings are talking about, though.

Oops. I forgot about that part in Job. I didn't do my research very well did I?

It's okay! We've all been there! And thanks for the passage in Revelation 12. 12:11 is one of my favorite verses in the entire book! "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death." Yeah, good stuff.

Regarding the passage in 1 Kings, you'd have to read the whole chapter to understand what's going on. King Ahab [Israel] wants to fight Syria with King Jehoshaphat [Judah]. He wants to know whether or not he should fight Syria. All the false prophets say "yes," that God will be with him. But Micaiah, the only prophet of the Lord, says "no," that God won't be with Ahab and that he'll die. And Micaiah also says he saw a vision of God sitting on his throne looking for someone to hoodwink Ahab into going to battle so he'll die [since he's a really bad king]. And a [demonic?] spirit appears before God and says he'll be a lying spirit in the false prophets' mouths. And that's what happens. Ahab believes the false prophets and is mortally wounded.

Okay, Emeth! “Lord, is it then true, as the Ape said, that thou and Tash are one? The Lion growled so that the earth shook (but his wrath was not against me) and said, It is false. Not because he and I are one, but because we are opposites, I take to me the services which thou hast done to him, for I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him. Therefore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath’s sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him. And if any man do a cruelty in my name, then, though he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted.” [The Last Battle, 156]

Notice what I put in bold. Emeth’s actions show who he really serves. Because of this, Aslan draws him to himself and when Emeth sees him he loves him. He is transformed. I think Emeth resembles Cornelius, "a devout man and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people and prayed to God alway. He saw in a vision ... an angel coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius. ... Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God." Then the angel tells him to send for Peter who "tell thee what thou oughtest to do." -- Acts 10:2-6

Cornelius did what was right. He was faithful and just. His deeds are accepted with God so that He shows Cornelius the true way: salvation in Jesus Christ. His good deeds weren't enough. He still had to hear the message of salvation in Christ from Peter. But I think his good works opened the door to God's gracious offer. The same is true with Emeth. Aslan saw that he did what was right, but for the wrong god [sort of like Paul]. So he rewarded Emeth for his good deeds by revealing himself. Emeth still had to see Aslan face to face, with the possibility of accepting or rejecting him. There was still only one way: Aslan. Note that once Emeth saw Aslan and bowed down to him as the one true god, he gave up on Tash! “It is I who reward him” – with true salvation. Good deeds can’t save but God can show mercy and point us in the right direction.

Also consider this passage: "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me, and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father and I will love him and wll manifest myself to him. . . .If a man love me, he will keep my words, and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." -- John 14:21, 23

Wow, when I re-started this topic, I never expected it would get so deep! I like your point about Cornelius, 220chrisTain.

Well I am new to this web site but not new to this topic. I agree with narnan 1 because I think that he hit the nail right on the head in this.

Alsan (Jesus) searches our hearts. Using Shift as an example of someone who knew the truth and used it for his on sinful desires is an example of the Pharassies in Jesus' day.

Emeth is an example of those who are saved at the last minute. Its a sign of Christ's or in this case Aslans love and mercy for those who dilligently seek him. Hebrews chapter 11 speaks to this. And I have always wounderded how Emeth was allowed into Alsans country,even though he served the god Tash. But at the same time Aslan sees the heart of this warrior and that it is truely seeking Him(Aslan) even though Emeth does not realize it.

Thats my thoughts on the matter.

To Narnia and the North!!!!!!!

Emeth is an example of those who are saved at the last minute. Its a sign of Christ's or in this case Aslans love and mercy for those who dilligently seek him. Hebrews chapter 11 speaks to this. And I have always wounderded how Emeth was allowed into Alsans country,even though he served the god Tash. But at the same time Aslan sees the heart of this warrior and that it is truely seeking Him(Aslan) even though Emeth does not realize it.

Good thoughts. Maybe I've been over-thinking it. And welcome to NarniaWeb!

Emeth is an example of those who are saved at the last minute. It’s a sign of Christ's or in this case Aslan's love and mercy for those who diligently seek him. Hebrews chapter 11 speaks to this. And I have always wondered how Emeth was allowed into Alsan's country, even though he served the god Tash. But at the same time Aslan sees the heart of this warrior and that it is truly seeking Him (Aslan) even though Emeth does not realize it.

Good thoughts. Maybe I've been over-thinking it. And welcome to NarniaWeb!

You know we all do. We over complicate things so much that it takes a scholar to come in and sort things out. Which will only confuse things even more:-.
Emeth is I believe an example of what the Apostle Paul tells us in his letter to the Romans. Romans chapter 2 verse12-16; "All those who sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all those who sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For the hearers of the law are not righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous. So, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, instinctively do what the law demands, they are a law to themselves even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts. Their consciences testify in support of this, and their competing thoughts either accuse of excuse them on the day when God judges what people have done in secret, according to my gospel through Christ Jesus."

Paul tells us the answer and I think that C.S. Lewis was through the conversation between Aslan and Emeth attempting to portray this message. Now, the only problem is this, The Calormens in a way can represent the Muslim world, and the Narnians represent the Jewish and Christian people. To say that a Muslim or a Hindu or Buddhist etc.... Can devoutly and truthfully follow his or her own religion and still be seeking Christ can mean two things.

One, that C.S. Lewis believes in universalism or that He believes in Calvinism. I think that it’s the latter. I think that C.S. Lewis uses an extreme case here to show the sovereignty of God or in this case Aslan. It’s God that chooses us and not the other way around. Unconditional Election. I also think is at work in this book. Remember the Aslan separates the Narnians and all creatures one on the right and the other on the left. This is taken from Matthew 25 when Jesus will separate the Sheep from the Goats.
So Alsan would not have allowed Emeth in had He not wanted Him in. Period. Aslan’s sovereignty. Is the ultimate topic that needs to be discussed?

Well that’s all for now.

God Bless, and........

To Narnia and the North!!!!!!!

Now, the only problem is this, The Calormens in a way can represent the Muslim world, and the Narnians represent the Jewish and Christian people. To say that a Muslim or a Hindu or Buddhist etc.... Can devoutly and truthfully follow his or her own religion and still be seeking Christ can mean two things.

The Calormen religion is very different from the Muslim religion. For one thing they have more than one god and Muslims have only one God. I think the Calormen religion is more like the ancient religions that the Israelites would have come across in the Old Testament.

One, that C.S. Lewis believes in universalism or that He believes in Calvinism. I think that it’s the latter. I think that C.S. Lewis uses an extreme case here to show the sovereignty of God or in this case Aslan. It’s God that chooses us and not the other way around. Unconditional Election. I also think is at work in this book. Remember the Aslan separates the Narnians and all creatures one on the right and the other on the left. This is taken from Matthew 25 when Jesus will separate the Sheep from the Goats.
So Alsan would not have allowed Emeth in had He not wanted Him in. Period. Aslan’s sovereignty.

I’m not sure that those are the only two choices. From what I’ve heard Dr. Ransom say on another thread, Lewis didn’t agree with Calvinism (or at least his perception of Calvinism). I agree with the part about God choosing us and that it is similar to the Sheep and Goats parable. I also agree that Aslan wouldn’t have allowed Emeth to advance into his country if he didn’t want him.

I may need to clarify something here, so as not to cause any confusion here. I believe that God wants all in His Kingdom, however He is a gentlemen, and He will not force Himself onto someone. Yet in 2Peter 3:9 it says "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."

I am not sure of what C.S. Lewis thought or believed concerning Calvinism or the topic concerning Man's responsibility and God's Sovereignty. I think that it’s both personally. I think that the scripture teaches both very clearly. In, Joshua it says "Choose you this day whom you will serve, but as for me and my house we will serve the Lord" And yet Jesus says in John that we do not chose Him, but he chooses us.

How I think this relates to Emeth, is that Emeth did not chose at all to serve, worship, or even acknowledge that Aslan is Supreme until he(Emeth) met Aslan. So, therefore Aslan sought Emeth out. Now once Emeth came in contact with Aslan, we see the real heart of Emeth. Are heart that was repentive and achnowleged the fact that he was not worthy of Aslans grace, or mercy. And yet Aslan sees his heart of humility and extends His love and mercy out to Him, even though he did not deserve it. If that’s not unconditional election, then I do not know what it is.

God Bless, and to Narnia and the North!!!!!!!

I think 90 percent of the contents of this thread may be mere semantics IF (and I qualify with "IF") my idea is correct. Bear with me.

It is said in Revelation that Jesus has a name for everyone that is known only to him which he will write on a white stone and give to us. (Yes, I know the history behind the image of the white stone, how they were used as souvenirs for travellers, and it is not relevant to the point I'm going to make, thanks.) To cut to the chase, God identifies us by what we are, not by what our new parents hope we'll be or whom our new parents wish to honour. In other words everyone has a "REAL" name, something that jibes well with Lewis' views on Plato you see expressed openly in LWW. A real name sums up who and what you are and how you got there. A real name is part of you, not a serial number.

We must believe on the name of Jesus. Fine, but how do you BELIEVE ON A NAME? Does knowing my name is John make you any more likely to help me if you found me lying shot in an alley? Does it make my "Good morning" any more sincere...or any less? Jesus' name is not a password, it's a symbol that represents a person. Jesus wants you to believe in that person, not the symbol. The symbol is only holy when you use it to represent the person, just as a Bible is only the word of God when it is read. And to be honest, do you think that for billions of years Jesus as a member of the Trinity was either totally anonymous or had a Hebrew name eons before Hebrew existed? His name isn't Jesus, Fred, Quasimoto or Sally Ann Myrtlebank. Jesus is the stage name under which he was incarnate and dwelt among men. Like the Cross, it is a symbol. Also like the cross, it's not a magic talisman in and of itself.

It is quite possible that the notion of goodness and perfection that Emeth sought was by its very good and perfect nature the "NAME" of Jesus in God's sense of what a name constitutes. There is a term for this, it's called the Doctrine of Anonymous Christianity. That is when you have Jesus without the J. E. S. U. S.

The only way you'll ever be fully comfortable with this explanation is if you put it in some sort of logical context. We have sinned. Emeth knew he sinned. We have fallen short of the Glory of God. Emeth knew he was unworthy to be in the presence of God. We need forgiveness to be with God. Emeth knew that also. We must receive a freely given gift of salvation. Now think carefully, if you had a box with a red button marked "eternal damnation" and a green button marked "eternal salvation" and you absolutely believed it worked, which button would you (and 99 percent of the rest of humanity) press? You'd be a fool to push the red button. Every child molester and drug dealer in the bad part of town knows that. Damnation is not our friend. Jesus wanted every human being to hear and accept the message that just by being alive human beings are in danger of damnation and that if they accept God's freewill gift of salvation and repent of their sins they will be saved. All of which Emeth understood.

What it all comes down to is that he spelled Jesus with a T instead of a J. That, my friends, is Anonymous Christianity.

You may not agree. But trust me, this isn't something I formulated one cold January day waiting for the Number 3 bus. You really ought to dig into this, and not just for the purpose of proving me wrong. What exactly did Jesus expect from people? What exactly was he wanting to do? Did he fill in the Password and Repeat Password blanks on the Lamb's Forum of Life with J-E-S-U-S just to make sure little kids in grass huts would go to hell when they died? Or is believing on the name of Jesus something more than a password to eternity? I respectfully submit that belief in words is not the path to salvation. Following Jesus is, whether you spell it with a J or a T.

And friends, it works both ways. There are some wolves in sheeps clothing that worship Tash spelled with a J. Beware them and fall not into their snares.

I think that C.S. Lewis uses an extreme case here to show the sovereignty of God or in this case Aslan. It’s God that chooses us and not the other way around. Unconditional Election. I also think is at work in this book. Remember the Aslan separates the Narnians and all creatures one on the right and the other on the left. This is taken from Matthew 25 when Jesus will separate the Sheep from the Goats. So Alsan would not have allowed Emeth in had He not wanted Him in. Period. Aslan’s sovereignty.
...
Man's responsibility and God's Sovereignty: I think that it’s both personally. I think that the scripture teaches both very clearly. In, Joshua it says "Choose you this day whom you will serve, but as for me and my house we will serve the Lord" And yet Jesus says in John that we do not chose Him, but he chooses us.

How I think this relates to Emeth, is that Emeth did not chose at all to serve, worship, or even acknowledge that Aslan is Supreme until he (Emeth) met Aslan. So, therefore Aslan sought Emeth out. Now once Emeth came in contact with Aslan, we see the real heart of Emeth. A heart that was repentive and achnowleged the fact that he was not worthy of Aslans grace, or mercy. And yet Aslan sees his heart of humility and extends His love and mercy out to Him, even though he did not deserve it. If that’s not unconditional election, then I do not know what it is.

Along with Pattertwig, I heartily agree. I think the Bible has abundant examples of both man's responsibility/choice and God's sovereignty--working together. And for everyone in this thread the verses jesusisking referred to are Joshua 24:15 and John 15:16.

EveningStar: I'm not sure how to respond to your post about the significance of the name of Jesus. How do we believe on a name? Well, we believe Jesus Christ died to save us from our sin. We believe He is the savior of our souls. Jesus is Greek [and Joshua is Hebrew] for "savior." And this is what Jesus is, is he not? Jesus Christ = mighty/anointed to save ... literally! I think faith in a name = faith in a person's words, deeds, character, faithfulness, etc.

10/25 EDIT
Check out my Youtube playlist "Name of Jesus." And I heard "Something happens" at church this morning! Click here for the lyrics. The point? Heaven takes notice when anyone mentions the name of Jesus! Anyone! There is power and authority in the name of Jesus!
/EDIT

The story below illustrates how I view Emeth. I have no idea whether or not it coincides with how Lewis thought but that I like to think of it this way.

Once upon a time there was a dog named Ralf. Now, Ralf was raised by cats and consequentially believed that he was a cat. He was always told to hate dogs but as he had never seen one he really didn't know what he was hating.

One day while he was carrying on a very peculiar habit of sniffing everything in sight he herd a strange noise. "woof woof... woof woof". "What in the world is that" he thought to himself. It was at this moment that something clicked inside of him for he wanted, nay, loved that sound. He thought to himself, that has got to be the most awesome cat ever. So, he started searching for the sound. He had exhausted himself of looking for "it" and was flopped down in a cool place to catch his second wind when saw a strange looking animal walking towards him. He had never seen another of his race before but instinct told him what it was. "It's a dog" he thought. Oh my goodness if only I could be one he thought in remorse. The dog came right up to him and said "hello there, a bit tired are you". "Ye-ye-ye-yes" stammered Ralf. "Hey what's with you, you look like you have just seen a ghost" said she, for a she it was. "Your a dog are you not" inquired Ralf still not recovered from his stupefaction. "Of course I'm a dog" laughed the other dog. Why would I be anything else? "Well if you are a dog I pray you not to hate me for I am a cat" said Ralf in misery. Seeing you I wish with all my heart that I could have been a dog. At this the other dog laughed harder than ever and, in a few minutes, when she had recovered her self said "but you are a dog". "What, that can't be, for I have always been called a cat" said Ralf in great puzzlement. For the first time the other dog began to look serious and said "follow me". Ralf followed her still stupefied and utterly puzzled as to what the other dog was leading him to. He was even more puzzled when she led him to a small pool. The other dog told him to look into the pool. Now, it so happened that the sunlight fell at just the right angle that if anyone looked into the pool they would be able to see their own reflection. When Ralf looked in he got the shock of his life for not only could he see the other dog reflected in the pool but another creature almost identical to her. Ralf had never seen his own reflection before but he had brains enough to guess what the other "creature" was. It was himself. "Hooray" he shouted, I am a dog.

The End.

Emeth is like Ralf. Ralf was a dog but it didn't dawn on him until he had met a dog and was able to see his own reflection against hers. I think the same thing goes for Emeth.

I also compare Emeth to some words that G.K. Chesterton wrote.

For if this book is a joke it is a joke on me. I am the man who with the utmost daring discovered what had been discovered before. If there is and element of farce in what follows, the farce is at my own expense; for this book explains how I fancied I was the first to set foot in Brighton and then found I was the last. It recounts my elephantine adventures in pursuit of the obvious. No one can think my case more ludicrous than myself; no reader can accuse me here of trying to make a fool of him: I am the fool of this story, and no rebel shall hurl me from my throne. I freely confess all the idiotic ambitions of the end of the nineteenth century. I did, like all other solemn little boys, try to be in advance of the age. Like them I tried to be ten minutes in advance of the truth. And I found that I was eighteen hundred years behind it. I did strain my voice with a painfully exaggeration in uttering my truths. And I was punished in the fittest and funniest way, for I have kept my truths: but I have discovered, not that they were not truths, but simply that they were not mine. When I fancied that I stood alone I was really in the ridiculous position of being backed by all of Christendom. It may be heaven forgave me, that I did try to be original; but I only succeeded in inventing all by myself an inferior copy of the existing traditions of civilized religion. The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy.

In this Chesterton is explaining how he left Christianity to discover a heresy of his own. After all was said and done however, he accidentally discovered Christian orthodoxy to be the values he had held in the first place.

Emeth is kind of the opposite of that. He set out on a journey on what he thought was orthodoxy. However, When he finally gets all perspectives and is able to look at his reflection he sees that what he thought was heresy was actually his orthodoxy.

If you have any doubts about Emeth's orthodoxy then maybe you need to look at his reflection as compared to the other Calormen's. The other Calormen's wanted to deal with the Narnian's by trickery and ill dealings but Emeth would have rather met them in an honest fight. Hmmm, that sounds like Narnian to me. The other Calormen's were scared to meet there god but Emeth wasn't scared, nay, was over joyed to meet his god. Hmmm, that sounds Narnian to me as well.

It is now that I must rest my case. I not only believe Emeth went further up an further up and further in but that he will always love the god that was originally to him a heresy but which he discovered in the end to be his orthodoxy.

One of you said it was "too bad that Lewis isn't around to ask what he meant by the whole Emeth episode."

While I'm sorry he's dead, it's not sad that he's not around to ask. We can't ask Jesus if stem cell research is murder or medicine either. And that's ok because Jesus wanted people to search their feelings. That's the only reason why he asks people to pray for things, not because you're telling him something you don't know but because you're going through the process of evaluating what's important to you while you're in his presence.

If we could ask Lewis what he meant, it would divide the board into two distinct camps...those who dismiss it and say he was a fool and those who accept it and say he was a prophet. As it is, people discuss it together, which is a good thing.

Watziznehm: great example! I especially like this part:

Emeth is like Ralf. Ralf was a dog but it didn't dawn on him until he had met a dog and was able to see his own reflection against hers.

It reminds me of what Emeth himself says: "And this is the marvel of marvels, that he called me Beloved, me who am but as a dog--" [LB ch 15]. God made us for more, did He not? We are made in His image. But sometimes we forget that because of our sinful, corrupted natures. And in our sin we resemble Satan rather than God. But there's hope! Christ is the image of God. And He became a man to save us from sin, to give us the more abundant life [John 10]. This is our purpose: to be holy as He is holy, to be transformed into the image of Christ. "For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren" [Romans 8]. How does this happen? "But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord" [2 Corinthians 3].

If have to give a short comment about the name of Christ only because I have not had a chance to respond as of yet.

I think that you have point their, Evening Star, however I am having a hard time accepting that any other name other than the ones given to Jesus in the word of God can actually save some one from their sins. Obviously it’s the blood of Christ and His death on the Cross and His Resurrection that allows the opportunity to accept Jesus as Savior.

The other names that the bible gives Jesus describe who He is, His attributes and His position as being Lord and King of the whole universe.

Co 1:18 says" And Hem is the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything He might have the supremacy."

And in Ephesians 3:14-15 says “For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, from whom the whole families in Heaven and Earth is names."

And in Luke Chapter 1
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

I think that the no other name other than the name of Christ can save anyone of their sins.

Peter testifies to this in Acts Chapter 2
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

There is no name in Heaven or under Heaven or in earth or under the Earth in which man can be saved. That is what the word of God teaches.

Now Aslan is the name the Lewis gives him in Narnia. And in voyage Alsan tells Edmond that he must learn to know Him by that name in his own world.

But remember that these books are fiction, not real. The messages and themes are real, but the characters even Aslan is a make believe character in the end, so we can not take anything that is said in the Narnia books as being totally authoritative. Should we apply the themes to our lives? Yes. The themes are love, forgiveness, repentance, humility etc... Just to name a few. However the Word of God aught to be our source of authority concerning doctrine.

Well that’s all for now, to Narnia and the North!!!!!!!

Thanks 220ChrisTian.

Great verses you got there. I'm reminded again of how AWSOME our God is!