But there are people who still haven't heard the gospel, yet may be trying to live the best way possible, their human conscience speaking within them, therefore there conscience is a law unto them. And by that they will be judged. (They're living honest lives, not perfect, mind you)

I'll leave that judgement to God. Thank goodness I am not He!

same here, you are correct, as I too leave that judgement to him, i just think that a verse in the bible says that. if so, those weren't my words. if not in there, than scrap it.

narnian1: I assume you're referring to the following passage [NKJV].

For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

The Gentiles who don't have the law will be judged without it. They'll be judged by their conscience, which is a law to them. But that isn't salvation, is it?

And regarding leaving judgment to God ... Abraham asked God, "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" [Gen 18:25, KJV] Yes, we leave the judgment of men and women's souls to God. He is always righteous and always merciful.

narnian1: I assume you're referring to the following passage [NKJV].

For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

The Gentiles who don't have the law will be judged without it. They'll be judged by their conscience, which is a law to them. But that isn't salvation, is it?

Well,
it's not salvation in the sense your thinking it.
but who's to say what will be God's judgement based on their conscience,
it might be not be for salvation... but then again it might be for God doesn't see as we do.

As was the case here for Emeth,
the world (Narnia and Calormen), saw things with one perspective, but Aslan saw it quite differently. This piece still puzzles me, because after all, it might not even be intended as a parallel to christianity- it might be there just for the story's sake.
(although I do feel it's of importance).

Emeth is one of my favorite characters in the Narnia chronicles. His scene in LB is one of the most memorable scenes for me, I remember being so happy that he was in Aslan's country (I didn't like the idea of a whole race being 'evil')

220chrisTian wrote

Ah! I think I got you now.
It could be, but then wouldn't Emeth have seen Aslan somewhere like the dwarfs, in the dark, still technically in the stable?

If you remember, the dwarves still thought they were in the stable, even to the extreme of feeling "walls". They "refused to be taken in", or to believe in something that required faith. So did the Calormen guard, who could not see the sky or grass, or hear Lucy, Peter, ect.
But Emeth just noticed the sunlight and grass and sky right off the bat. He had faith in a world of supernatural powers, that there was a "god", and so he could see the Seven Friends as well as the world.

]Emeth seemed to be beyond the stable already, much like Peter and the others.

The stable only existed in the Old Narnia; it was only a gateway to the Real Narnia.

220chrisTian wrote

Emeth seemed to be beyond the stable already, much like Peter and the others.

The stable only existed in the Old Narnia; it was only a gateway to the Real Narnia.

yes I know,
which is why he was beyond that already, as in- a whole other world.

The dwarfs, as you stated, refused to be taken in and they were still "in" the stable even though Lucy and the others were not "in" it, yet were able to interact with them.

ah never mind,
I don't think I am stating myself clearly.

narnian1 said

yes I know,
which is why he was beyond that already, as in- a whole other world.

The stable doesn't exist within the real Narnia. There is no "other world" beyond the stable. It's only a doorway to the Real Narnia within Aslan's country. The dwarves only think there's a stable.

The dwarfs, as you stated, refused to be taken in and they were still "in" the stable even though Lucy and the others were not "in" it, yet were able to interact with them.

The dwarves weren't really in the stable, because, as I said in my last paragraph, there is no stable in the real Narnia. Aslan says that "Their prison is only in their minds, yet they are in that prison." That's why Lucy, Tirian, Jill, ect. could interact with them.
Maybe I'm misinterrpreting what you said, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

220chrisTian wrote: Emeth seemed to be beyond the stable already, much like Peter and the others.

220chrisTian wrote: Ah! I think I got you now. It could be, but then wouldn't Emeth have seen Aslan somewhere like the dwarfs, in the dark, still technically in the stable?

Both of the above were wrongly attributed to me. I think narnian1 wrote the following: "It could be, but then wouldn't Emeth have seen Aslan somewhere like the dwarfs, in the dark, still technically in the stable? Emeth seemed to be beyond the stable already, much like Peter and the others."

I cannot contribute much to this discussion until I re-read the book, which I now think a necessity if the discussion and my responses are to make much sense.

220chrisTian wrote:

Both of the above were wrongly attributed to me. I think narnian1 wrote the following: "It could be, but then wouldn't Emeth have seen Aslan somewhere like the dwarfs, in the dark, still technically in the stable? Emeth seemed to be beyond the stable already, much like Peter and the others."

To the real 220chriTian:
Whoops! Sorry about that... I'll be more careful in future. My apologies.

You definitely should read LB again! It's written much more mystically and less defined and down-to-earth than the others. It has an almost ethereal sense of being like the book of Revelation. Kind of the way Tolkien's Ainulindale reads like Genesis.

To the real 220chriTian: Whoops! Sorry about that... I'll be more careful in future. My apologies.

It's okay!

You definitely should read LB again! It's written much more mystically and less defined and down-to-earth than the others. It has an almost ethereal sense of being like the book of Revelation.

Really? Interesting! I think I should read LB again.

FYI: when I heard Misty Edwards' song "As in the days of Noah" for the first time today I couldn't help but think of LB. The song is about the Second Coming of Christ. The video has apt pics. References: Genesis 6-7, Matthew 24:37-39, Revelation 6:16.

Thanks for the tip, 220chrisTain. I'll be sure to check that reference out.

(Btw, I posted from my Wii. I love this machine!)

I know this is going a few posts back but I thought I would say it anyway:

Whether you are judged by the Law of God or by your own conscience you are still going to be condemned because 'all have sinned'. Remember although we are judged by the law, no man is saved by the Law. The Law is not a way to salvation but a means of showing man his own sinfulness so that he will give up all hope of saving himself and fall on Christ. A man may be judged by his conscience but that does not mean that he can be saved by his conscience. The conscience condemns a man and shows him his need for salvation.

It is all very well and good discussing different possibilities of what Lewis meant (with the situation with Emeth). But I am afraid that we are going to have to face the fact that Lewis did not have a faultless theology. If you want to know what Lewis believed I highly recommend you read Mere Christianity or get the audio book. It was very interesting to me to see the relation between what he says he believes in Mere Christianity and what he writes into the chronicles. And yes, I am sorry to say that he did talk about varying “levels” of Christianity in “noble pagans”.

Whether you are judged by the Law of God or by your own conscience you are still going to be condemned because 'all have sinned'. Remember although we are judged by the law, no man is saved by the Law. The Law is not a way to salvation but a means of showing man his own sinfulness so that he will give up all hope of saving himself and fall on Christ. A man may be judged by his conscience but that does not mean that he can be saved by his conscience. The conscience condemns a man and shows him his need for salvation.

Excellent point and well said. We will still be judged. Our conscience can't save us. The Law can't save us.

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

And yes, I am sorry to say that he did talk about varying “levels” of Christianity in “noble pagans”.

I have the same problem with Lewis sometimes. The noble savage is an 18th-century invention, a la Rousseau. I'm not saying he started it but I think he popularized the concept. And let's not forget Voltaire's Candide. This idea reappeared in late 19th-century missionary policy. Men like J. N. Farquhar thought Christianity "fulfilled" Hinduism and that we should build on what God has already revealed of Himself in other religions. His most well-known book is Not to Destroy but to Fulfill. We have general revelation of God: nature. But divine revelation is found only in Christ and in the Bible. And whatever ideas followers of other religions have of God, they're wrong, twisted, or incomplete ... end of story.

Whether you are judged by the Law of God or by your own conscience you are still going to be condemned because 'all have sinned'. Remember although we are judged by the law, no man is saved by the Law. The Law is not a way to salvation but a means of showing man his own sinfulness so that he will give up all hope of saving himself and fall on Christ. A man may be judged by his conscience but that does not mean that he can be saved by his conscience. The conscience condemns a man and shows him his need for salvation.

Oh good point, on that. Stated well.
I'm now more confused with this part of the book, I still think Emeth entered the Real Narnia, rather than being in limbo. But how Lewis meant to translate it into our world I can't begin to guess properly. I'll just be leaving it as it is then.

If you want to know what Lewis believed I highly recommend you read Mere Christianity or get the audio book.

Oh yes I have the book.
Great book I think. I really enjoy Lewis' books. I take them with caution of course as he himself admits to his lack of knowledge. He wasn't perfect in his writing but he did write many good things in them.

I'm now more confused with this part of the book, I still think Emeth entered the Real Narnia, rather than being in limbo. But how Lewis meant to translate it into our world I can't begin to guess properly. I'll just be leaving it as it is then.

It would be so much easier if Lewis were around to ask, wouldn't it? We will never know what he meant for sure. He might not have even meant it to translate. I think the Emeth went with the others further up and further in. What we need to remember is that the land within the door of the stable is not exactly like Heaven, or at least it is not like my sense of what the Bible is telling us about Heaven. (To clarify, I think the accepting Jesus and the journey to know him better takes part on Earth and then is Heaven the end of the journey).

If you want to know what Lewis believed I highly recommend you read Mere Christianity or get the audio book.

Oh yes I have the book.
Great book I think. I really enjoy Lewis' books. I take them with caution of course as he himself admits to his lack of knowledge. He wasn't perfect in his writing but he did write many good things in them.

I’ve just started rereading Mere Christianity. I really like it. And of course any work about religion / the Bible needs to be taken with caution.

Deep stuff, Pattertwigs Pal, as usual!

Tash is allowed inside the stable as his evil self. I don't think in his fallen form Satan would be allowed in Heaven.

Well, what are your thoughts on the following passages?

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. And the LORD said to Satan, “From where do you come?” So Satan answered the LORD and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.” . . . And the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person.” So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD. . . .Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD. And the LORD said to Satan, “From where do you come?” Satan answered the LORD and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.”

Then Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by, on His right hand and on His left. And the LORD said, ‘Who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?’ So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner. Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, and said, ‘I will persuade him.’ The LORD said to him, ‘In what way?’ So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the LORD said, ‘You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.’"

Let's say that looking into Aslan's face is like receiving the Word of God. Some people reject it right away and others receive it and it grows in them. . . .Emeth saw Aslan and realized he was worthy of praise. He heard the Word, if you will. He did not question that Aslan was glorious and important. . . .He had the wrong god until he heard the true word (in this case saw Aslan face to face). (This is similar to Saul's conversion. Saul was working against the true God until Jesus appeared to him. The name of Jesus was hateful to him as the name of Aslan was to Emeth). Emeth realized he had erred through his meeting with Aslan as Saul did through his meeting with Jesus. Emeth then accepts Aslan and starts on his journey to know him better.

I think you've said a lot here [including what I didn't quote]. Why? Because the Word is a mirror of the soul [James 1:23-25]. We are spiritually transformed by it, if we don't forget what we look like. But also because Christ is the living Word. When we look in His face, we are transformed. This is what 2 Corinthians 3:18 is all about, really the whole chapter. And this is why Lucy's face becomes beautiful when she sees Aslan in Coriakin's house.

I'll say more about Emeth when I finish the book.