But what is faith? If one says "Christ is my Lord and Savior" and believes it, but then does nothing to change, become a better person, and help others than do they *truly* believe? If Edmund had learned that Aslan had sacrificed himself for him and truly believed that he was free from the Witch because of it, and yet had not moved to become a better person and help others, developing into King Edmund the Just, what use is his belief? He would still be the same Edmund and soon would push away Aslan.

I see it personally in people who 'believe' that Christ is their Savior, but they don't even try to change. They are the seeds that fall on shallow ground, but because they don't grow roots they wither and die, falling away from faith.

I think that, the week after Edmund, Lucy, and Eustace returned to England through the Door in the Sky, Edmund was probably sitting in church, heard about Christ's sacrifice on the cross, made the connection with Aslan, and was saved at that moment.

^^ You mean in PC, right? When VDT took place, Edmund already knew about Aslan's sacrifice and wanted to be His Child.

But what is faith? If one says "Christ is my Lord and Savior" and believes it, but then does nothing to change, become a better person, and help others than do they *truly* believe? If Edmund had learned that Aslan had sacrificed himself for him and truly believed that he was free from the Witch because of it, and yet had not moved to become a better person and help others, developing into King Edmund the Just, what use is his belief? He would still be the same Edmund and soon would push away Aslan.

I think the people who "have faith", and then don't change, never had faith in the first place. It may have seemed like they did, but they didn't really. Otherwise they wouldn't have fallen away. When anyone truly has faith, Jesus comes into their heart -- this makes them want to change. If they decide not to change, most likely they never had real faith in the first place, and were just temporarily getting into the hype of the moment. It's not about works. It's about where your heart is when you invite God into your life.

~Riella

I think the people who "have faith", and then don't change, never had faith in the first place. It may have seemed like they did, but they didn't really. Otherwise they wouldn't have fallen away. When anyone truly has faith, Jesus comes into their heart -- this makes them want to change. If they decide not to change, most likely they never had real faith in the first place, and were just temporarily getting into the hype of the moment. It's not about works. It's about where your heart is when you invite God into your life.

But you see, you're attempting to separate faith and works. If I'm interpreting you correctly, you are saying that faith without works is a lack of faith (i.e. James saying 'faith without works is dead'). Therefore if one does not 'do works' one does not really 'have faith'. Or are you separating 'change' from 'works'? To me, the change in your life that comes from faith is shown in the works you do; if you say you have faith but don't act out that faith in good works you haven't changed at all. There's no dichotomy between faith and works - you can't have one without the other. Works without faith is useless - Faith without works is dead. They are two entwining parts of salvation.

As for Edmund going to church and realizing that Aslan is Christ, I can see that happening. However, it seems odd to me that they would not have made the connection already if they were regular church-goers. The trouble would be getting him in the church in the first place most likely!

But you see, you're attempting to separate faith and works...Works without faith is useless - Faith without works is dead. They are two entwining parts of salvation.

Actually, what I'm saying is that they are entwined, just like you said. What I'm saying is that if a person doesn't have works, then they never had faith in the first place -- because they go together. If a perosn really has faith, they will change, and they will do works. If a person does not do works, and has not changed, then they probably never had faith.

But it was the faith they had orginally that saved them. Not the works they did afterward. In other words, works are the result of faith, a proof of the faith, a sign to others of your faith. But they are not what gives you salvation. We are saved by grace through faith, and not by works. It is the gift of God. The works we do afterward are us showing our thanks to Him, doing His work, and the love of God flowing through us. But that comes after we are already saved through faith.

~Riella

But it was the faith they had orginally that saved them. Not the works they did afterward. In other words, works are the result of faith, a proof of the faith, a sign to others of your faith. But they are not what gives you salvation. We are saved by grace through faith, and not by works. It is the gift of God. The works we do afterward are us showing our thanks to Him, doing His work, and the love of God flowing through us. But that comes after we are already saved through faith.

Looks like we're basically saying the same thing, though I still believe there should not be the strict separation between 'works' and 'faith'. I see works as flowing out of faith so continuously and without separation that you can't tell where one ends and the other begins. In a way, like the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father: Eternally equal in all things, never one without the other though still distinct.

I'm not sure what you are referring to when you say I am separating them... for the most part, I believe I've said that they go together... unless you mean the time that I said we are not saved by works, but by grace through faith. And that's written in the Bible itself. Ephesians 2:8-9 does show that there is some separation since you are saved through faith and are not saved through works. But you are right when you say that they should and do flow together. After all, who can put their faith in a loving God, and not have His love flow through them, urging them to help others or do His work and will?

~Riella

I guess my issue is the equation of scripture saying we are not saved by works with saying works are not a part of salvation. My understanding of that scripture is that the works referred to are works done without God's help - works of men as opposed to works of faith. In which case I completely agree, works without God's help cannot save.

So, all this long conversation is to find out we really agree, it's just a matter of vocabulary.

E+J and Lirenel, I've enjoyed reading through your discussion! I would have to say, though, Lirenel, that you and E+J do not agree. If I read E+J correctly, to agree with her, one has to take "works" totally out of the equation for receiving salvation. E+J has clearly stated that salvation is received through grace, is a gift from God and has nothing to do with works. You state Lirenel that "works without God's help cannot save." Thus, I would assumne from this statement that you believe that works with God's help CAN save. This is most definitely NOT what E+J is saying. Thus, the two of you do not agree. Am I misrepresenting? Carry on with your discussion!

^^ By Jove, Gilby's Angel, I believe you're right! (*Has been watching Sherlock Holmes too long*) I do believe that works has nothing to do with a person actually being saved. I believe works come with faith after you have recieved salvation. It is a good indicator to others that you have salvation. But it is not necessary to recieve salvation in the first place. (I also believe in Eternal Security when it comes to salvation, and therefore, I don't believe you can lose your salvation by not doing works, etc.)

I would also like to point out that I know many, many Christians very well -- (who are Christians, by the way; anyone who knows them can tell that, from speaking to them for years and years, as they speak and reveal what's in their minds and hearts -- and they do not exactly have "works" as works are generally described...

~Riella

^ Gilby's Angel, you may be right. I do believe that works are inextricably linked with faith and salvation. Perhaps, though, we have a different idea of what 'works' are. Works like keeping fasts and praying are helps on the path to salvation. The sacraments are all steps on that path and have a grace to themselves. Things like giving to the poor and preaching the word are results of faith.

I also don't believe in Once Saved, Always Saved. The parable of the sower seems to preclude that. God doesn't make you be saved if you later decide you want nothing to do with Him - that would be taking away free will. Of course, in the theology I follow, salvation is a journey where you struggle (with God's grace and help) to become more like Christ - to put on Christ. So one isn't 'saved' saved until the Last Judgement.

On a completely unrelated note, I love Sherlock Holmes. Are you watching some of the older series, like with Jeremy Brett (who *is* Sherlock Holmes to me)?

I also don't believe in Once Saved, Always Saved. The parable of the sower seems to preclude that. God doesn't make you be saved if you later decide you want nothing to do with Him - that would be taking away free will. Of course, in the theology I follow, salvation is a journey where you struggle (with God's grace and help) to become more like Christ - to put on Christ. So one isn't 'saved' saved until the Last Judgement.

On a completely unrelated note, I love Sherlock Holmes. Are you watching some of the older series, like with Jeremy Brett (who *is* Sherlock Holmes to me)?

I believe in Once Saved Always Saved because of a few scriptures that can mostly be found in... Romans, I believe. Such as the one that says "Nothing can snatch them out of my hand", etc.
What do you consider "works", by the way?
As for the parable of the sower, if it's the parable I'm remembering, I have always heard that the seeds sown represented God's word or people preaching to the person in question. And the difference was one person listened and accepted Christ through faith, one didn't at all, and one considered it but changed their mind. (It's been awhile since I read the parable. If I'm thinking of the wrong one, or am remembering the parable wrong, let me know and I can look at it again. I have only a very short amount of time right now because I have to hurry and get off the computer)
As for people who become Christians, but later decide they want nothing to do with Christ, I don't believe it has anything to do with works, but again faith -- that their faith was not real in the first place, but a mere phase they went through. Kind of like with hobbies -- people will find some new hobby, and they'll be really excited about it; it'll be all they can think about. But after awhile they'll lose interest and not like it anymore. Same with Christianity, in their case. It was just a temporary interest, instead of something they really, truly wanted to believe in and put their faith in. There is a scripture that says this (Can't remember the reference at the moment. If you want it, just let me know, and I'll give it to you next time) -- that if someone leaves the faith, they never had it in the first place, because if they had it they would not have left. I don't believe anyone who truly has faith and accepts Jesus Christ can lose their salvation or leave the faith.
I believe that you are saved when you accept Christ, and then the Holy Spirit enters your heart, and you will go to heaven when you die. I also believe, like you, that you are taken on a spiritual journey to become more like Christ. But I believe it's more a matter of God shaping you and forming you -- a joureny toward perfection -- and not a journey toward salvation. You are saved the moment the Holy Spirit enters you.

P.S. It's the newer, modern miniseries called "Sherlock", and the books themselves. I have seen the one your talking about as well, though.

~Riella

We are probably getting way off topic, but I'll continue until someone tells me to stop.

I believe in Once Saved Always Saved because of a few scriptures that can mostly be found in... Romans, I believe. Such as the one that says "Nothing can snatch them out of my hand", etc.

There is Scripture that can be read that way, and scripture that can prove an entirely different idea. I take that verse to mean that no outside force, such as the devil, can make you reject God - but it says nothing about God preventing you from making an internal decision to walk away.

What do you consider "works", by the way?

The different types of works I mentioned above - physical works like alms-giving and helping the sick are results of faith, while works like baptism and communion are works through which grace is bestowed through faith.

As for the parable of the sower, if it's the parable I'm remembering, I have always heard that the seeds sown represented God's word or people preaching to the person in question. And the difference was one person listened and accepted Christ through faith, one didn't at all, and one considered it but changed their mind.

That's the one. However, it's again one of those verses that is a matter of interpretation. You see the seed that fall on shallow ground which sprouts and then withers (or the plants that were choked with thistles) as someone who only considered trusting in God, whereas I see it as someone who had faith but then did not feed that faith and died (to faith). To me, the latter makes more sense because the plant actually grows from the seeds, but then dies. If the person considered having faith but decided not to, it would be more like seeds that never grew at all. But who is to say whose interpretation is right?

As for people who become Christians, but later decide they want nothing to do with Christ, I don't believe it has anything to do with works, but again faith -- that their faith was not real in the first place, but a mere phase they went through. Kind of like with hobbies -- people will find some new hobby, and they'll be really excited about it; it'll be all they can think about. But after awhile they'll lose interest and not like it anymore. Same with Christianity, in their case. It was just a temporary interest, instead of something they really, truly wanted to believe in and put their faith in.

But who are we to say that their faith wasn't real? Can we read their hearts? I can only tell you my heart: I had faith in Christ from a young age. I truly believed in Him, had faith in his death and resurrection and the salvation he brings. But when I was in high school, I began doubting. I was at the point I almost believed Jesus was only a man, perhaps a mad man. I had to choose again whether I would believe Jesus was God, believe in his salvation, or turn away. I consciously made the decision to have faith - but I could very easily have made a different choice. I don't think God made me have faith again, just because I had had faith before - frankly I would be furious if He had, and am so much more grateful for His mercy because I could see the cliff I nearly fell off. The Holy Spirit guided me, showed me books that helped bolster my faith, but He didn't make the decision for me. How many other people decided to take the other path? I can't callously say that they never had faith to begin with when I know how easy it would have been to choose as they did.

There is a scripture that says this (Can't remember the reference at the moment. If you want it, just let me know, and I'll give it to you next time) -- that if someone leaves the faith, they never had it in the first place, because if they had it they would not have left.

If you can find the verse I would love to hear it. I can't recall it off the top of my head either.

But I believe it's more a matter of God shaping you and forming you -- a joureny toward perfection -- and not a journey toward salvation. You are saved the moment the Holy Spirit enters you.

See, things like that make me think sometimes that a lot of differences we have are just a matter of definition. I believe that the journey towards perfection is a journey towards salvation. Phillipians 3:12,14 - "Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus also laid hold of me...I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus." The prize, in my reading, is the salvation of Christ Jesus that we must work to obtain(press toward), as we are perfected through our journey of faith.

P.S. It's the newer, modern miniseries called "Sherlock", and the books themselves. I have seen the one your talking about as well, though.

I love the new Sherlock miniseries! Did you know the actor who plays Watson is going to be Bilbo in the Hobbit movies? The books are marvelous, too, particularly the short stories, imo.

Hey, I'm glad I popped in here because I've met fellow fans of Sherlock. Nathan, Jeremy Brett 'is' Sherlock for me, too although I'm old enough to have watched and enjoyed Basil Rathbone in the role!

Back to salvation...Nathan, how do you reconcile the thief on the cross? All he had was faith, no time for works, baptism, etc. Yet, Jesus told him, "This day you will be with me in paradise."

What about PC movie Peter? We know by the end of the movie, he was repentant but what if he hadn't made it to the end of the movie? What if he had been killed in the night raid? It's obvious that in pursuing the night raid, Peter was not acting within the will of Aslan but I don't think one would argue that Peter no longer believed in Aslan. He still had faith but his works didn't reflect that. So where is the line drawn as to one's security? Or is there such a thing as eternal security? Are we constantly to live our lives in a perpetual state of flux, not knowing what will happen to our eternity from one moment to the next? Jesus told us not to worry but boy, this would really give me something to worry about!!!

Gilby's Angel, you make some great points - I will say that as long as your place your trust in God, even if all you can say is "I'll believe in Christ even if there isn't any Christ to believe in", I believe God will have mercy on you and you have assurance of salvation.

Your post also brought up something that was convicting me even before I saw it. I just realized that my debating the finer points of salvation theology is probably not helping anyone, is probably aggravating Riella, and has the potential of undermining the faith of readers and unnecessarily worrying them about the state of their salvation. While I have come to the understanding that 'once saved, always saved' is wrong and possibly dangerous, I forgot that, at one time in my walk towards salvation, I clung to OSAS as a necessary comfort in that time of my life.

My last post is particularly prideful, with taunts that I didn't realize until now I made. I forgot I am not a theologian, but a sinner still learning about God. I ask forgiveness for anyone I offended or worried with my arguments, and I particularly ask Riella's forgiveness for my pride and for even thinking of implying that she was callous in that one paragraph - I am truly sorry. Walk with God, and the points we have argued over will ultimately not matter in your personal journey.