Could LotGK have been squeamish? Oh, surely not. It's all very well to talk about a lady so dainty that she wouldn't set the sole of her foot on the ground, but surely her refinement wasn't more than skin deep. I mean, she was a snake! She moulted her good manners pretty quickly at the end.

Somehow the thought that a wannabe world conqueror would hesitate to off her opponents is quite ludicrous. Although I suppose that everybody has their own modus operandi; it did seem to work for her up till that point. Maybe she just wanted everyone to be nice and cooperate.

I don't think it was so much that she was reluctant to kill, but rather reluctant to kill personally, and for it to be messy. In some ways, the LotGK seems to be more stereotypically feminine in that respect. I think I have read that female murderers are more likely than men to use methods such as poisoning, and that is definitely in keeping with the one single murder we see the LotGK personally commit: the killing of Ramandu's Daughter. One little sting on the wrist and the poison is so potent that she's beyond help.

Jadis, on the other hand, goes around threatening to blast people and knock their brains out, and is more than happy to follow through with it. She seems to have a much greater disposition towards brutal violence. Even when the LotGK attacked Rilian at the end of The Silver Chair, I'm doubtful that she was actually trying to kill him. Knocking him unconscious until she's able to find another way to enchant him again seems more likely, because if she wanted to kill him, why didn't she just bite him on the ankle and let the extremely powerful venom do its work?

I think your thought about her wanting everyone to be nice and cooperate has merit, though. I mean, I think she must have liked having her ego stroked or else I don't see how she could have put up with adoring, sycophantic Rilian for ten years.

With that thought, I believe that the White Witch and LotGK (and perhaps even Tash in the Last Battle) are the same evil presence in Narnia that represent Satan/the devil in the stories.

No, that would be like saying that the Emperor Nero, Genghiz Khan and even Adolf Hitler are manifestations of the same evil presence on Earth. Yes they might have been considered representatives of Satan. The Early Christians certainly thought that way about Emperor Nero, whilst Genghiz Khan merely came to further his conquests. But all three were mortal men, nonetheless, some more evil than others. And they came from different perspectives, although they all got a lot of power into their hands.

So whilst it might be possible to lump Tash in with a couple of witches, the problem I have with this is that I think that Tash as a being is merely the manifestation of his followers' worst nightmares. And the Witches themselves are so separated in time they have very little in common.

Could LotGK have been squeamish? Oh, surely not. It's all very well to talk about a lady so dainty that she wouldn't set the sole of her foot on the ground, but surely her refinement wasn't more than skin deep. I mean, she was a snake! She moulted her good manners pretty quickly at the end.

Somehow the thought that a wannabe world conqueror would hesitate to off her opponents is quite ludicrous. Although I suppose that everybody has their own modus operandi; it did seem to work for her up till that point. Maybe she just wanted everyone to be nice and cooperate.

No, LOTGK was a backroom girl, not a senior executive, you might say. I agree with you up to a point. And if she convinced everyone that hers was the only world and her purposes the only ones worth striving for, her work is half-done already. The banality of evil, you might say, where the accused murderer has done little more than rubberstamp lists of names of people that someone or other higher up has considered to be undesirables.

Jadis' forte was making stone statues out of people, usually native Narnians. Aslan, though, had the power to unpetrify those statues even before he destroyed her. Human blood deflected some of Jadis' new magic somehow. Was anyone human petrified? Although Jadis regained her strength in London, the deplorable word didn't work on anyone, and it was humans that Aslan put in charge of Narnia. But LOTGK, as a snake, actually did doff someone - Ramandu's daughter, whose father was a star. LOTGK's expertise in mind control might be considered magic by Narnians, but not necessarily by humans, though they seem to be vulnerable to it as well, through their senses. So in one way, LOTGK was an even more dangerous Witch than was Jadis.

Jadis has supernatural abilities in her own world, but as pointed out, they vanish both in our world and in the Narnian world. The vengeful Tarkhaans of Calormen (villains for HAHB and LB) certainly have no supernatural abilities, nor does Miraz...

I think the answer lies in the fact that ALL villains save for the LOTGK are noted to have otherworldly origins. Jadis came from Charn (and had magic there,) and the Calormene villains (Rishda in LB and Rabadash in HAHB) as well as Miraz were all descendents of human beings from our world. All of these villains were transplants to the Narnian world.

Yes, Digs, I can see some of what you are saying. Save for the LOTGK, none of the villains to date in the series are of native origin. All of those of human descent are descended from humans from Earth, even those Calormenes who claim to be descendants of Tash. But the same applies to all the child protagonists who venture into Narnia and whose presence there is revered. They, too, like Jadis, were "transplants".

Jadis feared the coming of the Pevensies because they were the embodiment of what to expect when the four thrones of Cair Paravel were to be filled. Jadis already knew prophecies and was well aware of what happened when she, Polly, Digory and company arrived in Narnia first, though she couldn't have known about what happened in the eternity before that moment. And yes, Jadis, who brought evil into Narnia, was able to corrupt some dwarves and other creatures into darkness. That may or may not have included LOTGK or her antecedents.

But if she even knew about Jadis, LOTGK would also have known about King Frank and Queen Helen being crowned as the first monarchs of Narnia, and the sacred trust that whilst Narnia is not a land for humans it is still a land for humans to be stewards of. She might even have known about the silver apple tree.

Why I think you are onto something with your theory that she could have been a native born Narnia, is her targetting Ramandu's daughter. As a half-human at best, Caspian's Queen, however beautiful, was more vulnerable to LOTGK than Caspian X. Rilian was born to them, but he would have shared some of his mother's heritage, though he was his human father's son. Hence LOTGK targetted him. And saw the chance to overcome Narnia and rule through Rilian, the rightful heir because of his human lineage.

It confirms also that Jadis and LOTGK are two different people. I doubt that Jadis got into Narnia by burrowing underground and working through a human or mostly human intermediary. She was too busy claiming that she really was human, after all, having seen some of them in London. Notice LOTGK never claimed to be human?

I would say most readers agree that Aslan is an allegory of God/Jesus...
It seems to me that C.S. Lewis' intention was to have an evil presence or antagonist throughout the books (just as there is in our world) that manifests itself in different forms, with different powers, and with different intentions (all being evil, of course) at different periods in Narnian history. This represents the evil presence of the devil in our world, just as Aslan represents God. So to have different forms and manifestations of an evil being in Narnia is no different than Satan appearing in different forms in our world.

Most readers would say Aslan is NOT an allegory. The author said he is not, which is good enough for me.

The argument [that having a good character requires the presence of an evil character] does not seem strong.

Nor does the suggestion that Satan appears in many guises in our world, and therefore the same can be the same in Narnia.
The devil in our world is the chief rebel against God. There is not just one individual in Narnia who is the chief rebel there.

I probably should have mentioned this in my previous post, but I will say that I do think there are a number of parallels between Jadis and Satan. (This is one of the reasons why I find the idea that Jadis-is-representative-of-Satan-and-therefore-the-other-evil-characters-as-well theory one of the more compelling.)

For instance, the events we see play out near the end of LWW is something that is very symbolic of the Christus Victor/Ransom theory of the Atonement: the "theory that Adam and Eve made humanity subject to the Devil during the Fall, and that God, in order to redeem humanity, sent Christ as a 'ransom' or 'bait' so that the Devil, not knowing Christ couldn't die permanently, would kill him, and thus lose all right to humanity following the Resurrection."

There's a strong argument that Aslan represents Christ, Jadis represents Satan, and Edmund represents humanity. For this reason, some people postulate that Jadis's "standing in" for Satan in the Narnia series would indicate that she would be able to return and continue to cause trouble, as Satan does in this fallen world.

The problem I have with this idea is the fact that Aslan killed Jadis, an act that does not seem to be symbolic of any aspect of the Atonement. While I wouldn't have very much of a problem with her still roaming about Narnia as an evil spirit with no real power of her own (even though I don't really see any evidence of this happening in the books, per se), I do have issues with her having the ability to rise from the dead after being killed by Aslan.

While I wouldn't have very much of a problem with her still roaming about Narnia as an evil spirit with no real power of her own (even though I don't really see any evidence of this happening in the books, per se), I do have issues with her having the ability to rise from the dead after being killed by Aslan.

I see what you mean. And this is why Jadis must not be considered in any way as the same as LOTGK. Jadis even in the two last films was no more than a conjurer's trick and a nightmare, and that is the way she should stay. I know she comes up in MN, but we will meet that when it happens.

There is another dissimilarity so obvious I don't know why I missed it. Jadis has a name, always. But not LOTGK. And Jadis might have liked getting her own way, but she never denied the existence per se of Aslan. Unlike LOTGK.

In short, my opinion on this rests on this fact:

If the Lady of the Green Kirtle and the White Witch were the same person, Aslan had no power whatsoever in the Narnian World. He killed Jadis; if she was able to come back then it is proof that she was stronger than He was.

This, for me, is the most convincing argument that the LotGK and the White Witch are two different people. Even though the werewolf and the hag from PC claimed they could bring her back... I don't believe they could have, though they might think so. Perhaps they could bring back some vestige of her power, or her "spirit", but the Witch herself? I don't think so. (Very telling to me is that--if they really could "always get them back", then why did they wait so long to do so?)

Each witch had a different modus operandi. Think about it. The White Witch liked turning people into stone. Her magic was concentrated in her wand. She also claimed suzereignty in her own right. Her method of mastering Narnia was to dominate pure and simple. [snip]

Whilst the LOTGK, trying to expand her influence, has a different way of operating. She doesn't have to try to be friendly, as did the White Witch when milking as much information from Edmund as she could as she suggested he could be her sole heir in LWW. LOTGK was friendly - to strangers she met on the wayside. Seeming hospitable, she directed them to "suitable" lodgings, and much depended on their strength of character whether or not they would listen and proceed to Harfang.

This is another reason why I don't think they're the same person. Frankly, I don't think Jadis would have had the patience to wait as long as she did to try to take over Narnia--even assuming she'd only been resurrected shortly before killing Caspian's Queen, that's still a 10-year wait. This is the same woman who destroyed her kingdom rather than let another rule it; this is the same woman who tried to kill Aslan as he was displaying his power in creating Narnia. I'm convinced the only reason she waited as long as she did in conquering Narnia the first time was because she had to, because of the silver apple tree. Jadis never shows any signs of the kind of willingness to wait until her plans unfurled that the LotGK did.

Honestly, I'm not entirely sure I understand why these two characters need to be connected. They're both interesting villains in their own way; they both use different kinds of magic, different plans. The only thing they have in common is that they're both Witches who terrorize Narnia, which to me means they were both women who had dark desires, learned magic to fulfill these desires, and in their evil both happened to target Narnia. As for this quote:

"And the lesson of it all is, your Highness," said the oldest Dwarf, "that those Northern Witches always mean the same thing, but in every age they have a different plan for getting it."

Personally, I see that as a reflection of human nature. Both Jadis and the LotGK seem to have gotten their magic from somewhere in the North, so I think there must be some, dark place there where such witches can come from/learn their power/whatever their origins may be. If such power were available in the real world, I'm fully convinced that, as often as someone could find it, we'd see a rise of an evil witch in our world.

I guess that's why I'm against the idea of there being a sort of "spirit of evil" which passes on from one witch to the next. In addition to the question of "When did this affect Jadis, since she's from another world", it gives the impression that the evil comes from one, supernatural source--instead of from the individuals themselves.

Granted, most of that is coming from my personal opinions, rather than firm contextual support. But, that's my two cents on the issue.

Both Jadis and the LotGK seem to have gotten their magic from somewhere in the North, so I think there must be some, dark place there where such witches can come from/learn their power/whatever their origins may be.

....oooooh. Didn't Jadis renew her powers by stealing the apple in the garden? She received "her heart's desire".

Didn't Jadis renew her powers by stealing the apple in the garden? She received "her heart's desire".

According to Aslan, her "heart's desire" was unwearying strength and endless days as a goddess and not a renewal of her powers.

This, for me, is the most convincing argument that the LotGK and the White Witch are two different people. Even though the werewolf and the hag from PC claimed they could bring her back... I don't believe they could have, though they might think so. Perhaps they could bring back some vestige of her power, or her "spirit", but the Witch herself? I don't think so. (Very telling to me is that--if they really could "always get them back", then why did they wait so long to do so?)

In some ways, I think the filmmakers might have been on the right track with the "just one drop of blood" thing.

There had to been some sort of reason why Nikabrik, the Hag and the Werewolf needed Caspian around, or else they would have just brought her back on their own without any trouble from anyone. (I suppose they may have thought they needed to do the ritual in that particular spot of Aslan's How, but still, just wait until everyone is away/sleeping and do it then.) My best guess is that they were hoping to get the Prince to go along with it and then have the spirit of the White Witch possess him. Since he was already seen as the leader of the Narnian rebellion, he would be the perfect host.

Although I think the filmmakers might've been moving in the right direction, it doesn't really make sense to me that the ritual would need human blood in order to bring Jadis back, because she herself wasn't human at all. (And then there's also the fact that they could've just kidnapped a Telmarine for that purpose ages ago.)

....oooooh. Didn't Jadis renew her powers by stealing the apple in the garden? She received "her heart's desire".

Not as far as I can tell. I think it must have been her heart's desire to live forever, because the tree in the garden was the Tree of Life.

After eating the fruit, Jadis says to Digory, "Do you know what that fruit is? I will tell you. It is the apple of youth, the apple of life. I know, for I have tasted it; and I feel already such changes in myself that I know I shall never grow old or die. Eat it, Boy, eat it; and you and I will both live forever and be king and queen of this whole world..."

Later on, when Polly thinks that the fruit won't have any affect on Jadis because Jadis took it without permission, Aslan replies, "Alas, it will. Things always work according to their nature. She has won her heart's desire; she has unwearying strength and endless days like a goddess. But length of days with an evil heart is only length o f misery and already she begins to know it. All get what they want; they do not always like it."

It would be really interesting to know where that magic wand of hers came from, though. We do know that Jadis started moving off to the North immediately as Polly and Digory flew away on Fledge; that was Digory's last sighting of her. It's not surprising to me that magic might be found in the North, either; after all, that's where the ancient giant civilization of whom Father Time was once king lived, and Father Time certainly was a supernatural entity with supernatural abilities. I've often wondered if Jadis and the Lady of the Green Kirtle were once part of that civilization in some capacity.

(Interestingly, the empty ruins of the Giant City are somewhat evocative of the empty ruins of Charn. I wonder if Lewis was originally planning on having Jadis be the cause of destruction for that giant city and the person who wiped out the wise and noble race of giants?)

Edit: DiGs, you beat me.

Although I think the filmmakers might've been moving in the right direction, it doesn't really make sense to me that the ritual would need human blood in order to bring Jadis back, because she herself wasn't human at all. (And then there's also the fact that they could've just kidnapped a Telmarine for that purpose ages ago.)

That's true; that would at least make sense. Maybe if they'd needed royal blood, instead of human? That would make sense--above all else, Jadis saw herself as a queen.

It would be really interesting to know where that magic wand of hers came from, though. We do know that Jadis started moving off to the North immediately as Polly and Digory flew away on Fledge; that was Digory's last sighting of her. It's not surprising to me that magic might be found in the North, either; after all, that's where the ancient giant civilization of whom Father Time was once king lived, and Father Time certainly was a supernatural entity with supernatural abilities. I've often wondered if Jadis and the Lady of the Green Kirtle were once part of that civilization in some capacity.

(Interestingly, the empty ruins of the Giant City are somewhat evocative of the empty ruins of Charn. I wonder if Lewis was originally planning on having Jadis be the cause of destruction for that giant city and the person who wiped out the wise and noble race of giants?)

Hmm, that is an interesting question. The Lady of the Green Kirtle did seem to know quite a bit about the giants, including the entirety of the "Under Me" poem, and Jadis had some Giant blood, which could give her some sway with any giants she met. And, frankly, I can see Jadis at least attempting to take over the Giant civilization (after all, with Narnia and anything south of it cut off, who else could she rule?), and regardless of whether or not she succeeded, she could have destroyed it. (She doesn't seem like the type of ruler that a kingdom can endure for multiple lifetimes without collapsing.)

I mentioned in my original post that Douglas Gresham seemed to imply that the White Witch and the Lady of the Green Kirtle were the same spirit, but I went back and watched the interview recently and I've changed my mind on that. I don't think he was trying to say that. This is something of a relief to me, because Douglas Gresham thinking they were the same person seemed to be the strongest evidence against the two-characters-camp—Lewis may have told him something that the average person didn't know.

Anywhere, here's the full transcript of that part of the interview, helping to put the "This evil spirit has found a new, young body in which to inhabit" quote into context.

• Interviewer: Talk a bit about the Green Mist and what it meant in the film.

[/*mwg5tko1]

• Douglas Gresham: Well, in this movie we don't have an old, talking, walking, dancing Witch. Or any other villain of that sort. We don't have an ogre or anything like that. So we had to come up with some way of depicting the world of Narnia's own reaction to the presence of evil, which is foreign to Narnia—as it is to this world, but it's very foreign to Narnia. And so we came up with the idea of having some kind of visible mist that oozes out of things and then sort of gathers up on people and so forth, which is our way of depicting how Narnia is reacting to the horror. It makes it visible; you can actually see the evil, and Narnia allows us to see the evil so that we can cope with it. And I think that's what this is all supposed to depict.

[/*mwg5tko1]

• Interviewer: It would kind of also foreshadow the Lady of the Green Kirtle?

[/*mwg5tko1]

• Douglas Gresham: Well, that's probably why the mist is green! But that's the only foreshadowing effect here. We do know from this that there is still evil. The death of the White Witch, and her expulsion to whatever realm people like that go to and that sort of thing, that's not the end of the evil in Narnia. We know it's there. We had to find a way in Dawn Treader of showing it being there rather than talking about it being there. And that's how we did it. In Silver Chair, of course, we have the evil embodied again.

[/*mwg5tko1]

• Interviewer: And would the Green Kirtle Lady be a new cast, or would Tilda maybe—?

[/*mwg5tko1]

• Douglas Gresham: I think it would have to be a new cast. This evil spirit has found a new young body in which to inhabit. And I think that has to happen.[/*mwg5tko1][/listmwg5tko1]

He seems to be talking about the general spirit of evil in Narnia, not the White Witch specifically. Just wanted to clarify that entire exchange since I had listed it as potential evidence for a particular camp in the original post.

That's true; that would at least make sense. Maybe if they'd needed royal blood, instead of human? That would make sense--above all else, Jadis saw herself as a queen.

That's a plausible idea! I hadn't thought of that. It's even possible there was some degree of snobbery about it—"only royal blood will do." I remember Jadis looked down on those who were "common" in The Magician's Nephew.

There had to been some sort of reason why Nikabrik, the Hag and the Werewolf needed Caspian around, or else they would have just brought her back on their own without any trouble from anyone. (I suppose they may have thought they needed to do the ritual in that particular spot of Aslan's How, but still, just wait until everyone is away/sleeping and do it then.)

Yes, Jadis made her claim to be Queen of Narnia, Empress of the Lone Islands etc, no doubt because, as she would assert, she was of royal blood. But Royal blood in Narnia means you have to be human in the first place. And Jadis came from Charnian Royalty and according to the Beavers didn't have so much as a drop of human blood in her veins. Now the other side of the battle of Beruna, let alone their descendants, may not have known that royal is synonymous with human. And maybe they just thought they should get that drop of human/royal blood which would make Jadis whole again. Besides she was supposed to be immortal.

It would be really interesting to know where that magic wand of hers came from, though. We do know that Jadis started moving off to the North immediately as Polly and Digory flew away on Fledge; that was Digory's last sighting of her. It's not surprising to me that magic might be found in the North, either; after all, that's where the ancient giant civilization of whom Father Time was once king lived, and Father Time certainly was a supernatural entity with supernatural abilities. I've often wondered if Jadis and the Lady of the Green Kirtle were once part of that civilization in some capacity.

(Interestingly, the empty ruins of the Giant City are somewhat evocative of the empty ruins of Charn. I wonder if Lewis was originally planning on having Jadis be the cause of destruction for that giant city and the person who wiped out the wise and noble race of giants?)

Very possibly. But I wonder if the Giants of Harfang are all that are left of that ancient Giant city. Yes, Jadis could have been part of the eventual destruction, having corrupted it. Maybe LOTGK might have some links with that time, and at least she could remember the original inscription. Do you think that Father Time was the one who made it?

Good points about the blood, wagga. Those are some of the reasons why I think that Caspian being a "host" for the White Witch may be more probable, but who knows? If only Lewis was still around for interviews! Although I suppose we wouldn't have nearly as much to discuss if we could ask him any question we liked.

Very possibly. But I wonder if the Giants of Harfang are all that are left of that ancient Giant city. Yes, Jadis could have been part of the eventual destruction, having corrupted it. Maybe LOTGK might have some links with that time, and at least she could remember the original inscription. Do you think that Father Time was the one who made it?

I think it's reasonable to think that it was written about him, yes. It's only about eight pages before Rilian tells the reader what the "Under Me" message means that we meet Father Time and he's described as someone who was once a king in Overland and has since sunk down into the Deep Realms. That's pretty much on point with the king that Rilian described. The last time I reread the book, Rilian's explanation immediately made me recall what the gnome warden had said about Father Time, and it seemed to click. It makes sense to me because Father Time, aside from Aslan and the Emperor Beyond the Sea, really seems to be the only character who could make such a claim about the whole world being beneath him: he literally blotted out the sun in LB, after all.

I'm thinking that whenever Father Time died, his followers carved the message into the Earth. Of course, that's assuming he actually died. He doesn't seem very dead when we see him, though I'm rather tempted to think that might be a metaphor for soul sleep. If he did die, though, we have to ask: how? How could such a powerful being be killed, and by whom? It seems probable to me that Jadis and/or the LotGK (for all we know, they could've been a tag team) had something to do with it and the downfall of that ancient civilization.

If only Lewis were still alive today... I would love to ask him if the ruined city of giants was an early draft of Charn.

There's one big difference between the White Witch and the Lady - Jadis was in Narnia, creating the hundred years of winter and ruling the Narnians by terror and cruelty. The Lady is biding her time in the North, plotting to take over Narnia and install Rilian as puppet king. What we don't know is how she would have acted if she had achieved her aims. We only know that she enslaved the gnomes of Bism by magic - would she have treated the Narnians in the same way or would she have terrorised and killed them? The Narnians obviously recognised Rilian when he returned safely to Narnia - can you imagine their heart-break if he had returned still enchanted and didn't know them, and even mis-treated them on the Lady's orders? i think that Jadis and the Lady are two different "people" but are of the same ilk. Any thoughts??

I think they're different. Jadis is constantly cool, calm, and calculating (except for the time she had a comical frenzy in London). LGK is a giggly girl in good moods and bordering on violently psychotic (and not quite calculating) in bad moods.

LGK can possibly be of the same race as Jadis, a survivor of Charn... but that is unlikely. I think her true form is a serpent, and her false form was inspired from Narnia's original bewitching tyrant.