How then did Anradin get to Tashbaan in time to accompany Rabadash?

I haven't got the books with me - do we know how many days were taken by the whole Shasta/Bree journey, between leaving with Bree and arriving at Tashbaan?

Shasta and Bree would have been travelling at a much slower pace than Anradin, and I have a vague memory of a mention of them travelling by night and lying up by day (is this a real memory?) while of course Anradin would have no mercy on his horses, riding by day and night if he felt the need. It also strikes me as very probable that stables for official use would have been established every twenty miles or so, as part of ensuring that imperial messengers could always travel at maximum speed. (The Roman empire had such a system, and I believe the Persians as well.) If so, Anradin would have been able to resume his journey to Tashbaan fairly quickly.

The whole notion of a Bar-linked Calormen plot against Archenland is fascinating; I look forward to hearing more!

There isn't any sort of timeline, that I can see. Firstly days are mentioned as Shasta learns to ride and to do all the things Bree trains him in doing. By page 27 they are talking about travelling on "for weeks and weeks, past more bays, headlands, rivers and villages than Shasta could remember". That is the point at which they meet Aravis who is in more of a hurry. And you are right. Even accompanied by Aravis and Hwin, they are travelling more slowly than what Anradin could have done, since after that time the villages started to get larger, there seemed to be more people and definitely at that point they could only travel by night. And yes, there would be that handy courier service Aravis mentions.

I'd say that Bree and Shasta took about a couple of months to get to Tashbaan. Possibly they met Aravis and Hwin at about the same time as Susan and her entourage arrived in Tashbaan.

I think the Lord Bar/Anradin plot has been there all the time but it isn't the focus of the story, merely the explanation at the end, of how King Lune's Archenlandish son came to be a Calormene peasant boy in the first place. After all, HHB is firstly Bree and Shasta's story and how they met Aravis and Hwin, told from their point of view. Like the other Narnia stories, it is the main characters' escape from their likely fates, their choices and personal journeys that are important, and Aslan's interventions and providence, rather than the original skulduggery that got them in their situation.

But, reading between the lines, I'd say that Anradin and Lord Bar had been in cahoots at some stage. If Lord Bar was in the pay of the Tisroc, then Anradin might well have been his middle-man. After being pursued by King Lune, Lord Bar entrusted Shasta to one of his knights who went far down the coast before running out of food and water. Where was the knight expected to take Shasta to, anyway, before he died? Wouldn't it be logically to Tashbaan, to the Tisroc? Or was he heading for somewhere much further south, to Anradin's palace?

At that point, Aslan intervenes to save Shasta's life, to keep him out of Anradin's clutches, and to bring him to shore just two days' journey north of Anradin's palace, and just far enough away, even from the nearest village, for Shasta to escape scrutiny for a decade. By the time Shasta is old enough to be of considerable use to Arsheesh, word has started to reach Anradin of a poor fisherman claiming as his son, a foreign-looking boy who looks nothing like him, or any of the local people.

Anradin now starts putting two and two together, and, wondering exactly who this boy is, decides to locate this fisherman, find out how he came by such a 'son', and if, by any chance, it could be the boy that Lord Bar took from King Lune. Anradin has to be careful, because although the boy looks different from locals, he doesn't know until he has seen him, just how different. And there is also the chance the boy might have come from somewhere else in the Narnian world, or even in the Calormene empire.

It seems also that however indifferently animals are treated in Calormen, it isn't really the done thing to sell one's own children into slavery without a very good reason for doing so, but Arsheesh doesn't seem as averse to the idea as might be expected. Besides, poor as he says he is, has he really been doing that badly, compared to the villagers? However, during that evening, Bree and Shasta escape together, and by 'good fortune', they evade detection. Anradin, who really has to be in Tashbaan, has no time to pursue further enquiries, being involved with Rabadash's plans. By that time, Aravis and Hwin have joined Bree and Shasta's party, and all of them have become indistinguishable from the rest of the peasantry that congregate in Tashbaan. Unless it is King Edmund, is looking for Prince Corin, one of Susan and Edmund's entourage, or someone who could be his double. Or Lazaraleen, a personal friend to Aravis.

That, to me, might explains the plot hole in HHB, that a boy whose looks are a dead giveaway in Arsheesh's hut, would be able to travel into any amount of villages to trade for food and clothes without being at all noticeable to the traders he meets. It might also explain why Anradin might be so interested in buying Shasta and in his story, and why he was unconvinced by Arsheesh's claiming of Shasta as his son. And it also gets rid of some of the criticisms levelled at HHB, especially if someone ever wants to make a film of this book.

The whole "Anradin and Bar were in cahoots" doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Anradin has such a short temper, that if he would have known about Shasta, I highly doubt he'd have inquired subtly. He would have rushed into Arsheesh's house, killed Shasta (probably Arshessh too for good measure) and then burnt the place to the ground.

There isn't any sort of timeline, that I can see. Firstly days are mentioned as Shasta learns to ride and to do all the things Bree trains him in doing......
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That, to me, might explains the plot hole in HHB, that a boy whose looks are a dead giveaway in Arsheesh's hut, would be able to travel into any amount of villages to trade for food and clothes without being at all noticeable to the traders he meets. It might also explain why Anradin might be so interested in buying Shasta and in his story, and why he was unconvinced by Arsheesh's claiming of Shasta as his son. And it also gets rid of some of the criticisms levelled at HHB, especially if someone ever wants to make a film of this book.

For that whole post:

I'm not sure it's all the way it happened...but it should be!

Oh, and an earlier mistake of mine- I said that Lord Bar probably seized Shasta/Cor as a hostage; but checking the book it says that he definitely took Cor specifically because of the prophecy.

The whole "Anradin and Bar were in cahoots" doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Anradin has such a short temper, that if he would have known about Shasta, I highly doubt he'd have inquired subtly. He would have rushed into Arsheesh's house, killed Shasta (probably Arshessh too for good measure) and then burnt the place to the ground.

What I meant by being 'in cahoots' is that they had met and were in a conspiracy together.

No, sorry, being a fierce, militaristic Tarkaan doesn't really work the way you say. Anradin might have been bad-tempered, but losing his temper isn't the way to win wars. It certainly isn't how to get information out of frightened peasants, or how to uphold the district laws. Anradin was weighing up Arsheesh during that bargaining session, make no mistake. And just because Anradin could be arrogant doesn't mean to say that he wouldn't pride himself on his self-discipline, that is to say, his ability to keep his temper under control. As Hien also pointed out, earlier, this is someone who would be quite prepared to travel alone, who would pride himself on his hardihood and military preparedness, whilst roughing it along the way.

Calormen isn't Charn, where Jadis, the White Witch's, temper tantrums demolish a whole civilization. I really think that we need a proper thread in this forum to discuss the literary Calormen, the civilization of which I'm beginning to think is quite a bit more involved than it appears at first sight.

Getting back to Arsheesh, who saw the dead knight and took Shasta to rear. What did he do with the boat and the dead knight? Chances are, that is how Arsheesh got his boat, and the dead knight was merely dumped at sea. Meanwhile, if Anradin was at all involved in the Lord Bar conspiracy, then he, like everyone else, would realistically have assumed the baby was dead. Especially as a lot also depends on how old the baby was at the time. A very small baby would assuredly have perished, and even a toddler, who could eat normal food, would have been lucky to survive.

I think that Anradin had to get proof of who Shasta was, first, before he could do anything, whatever he suspected. Just because someone in the last village says there is something fishy about Shasta and Arsheesh, doesn't actually make Shasta the missing prince - don't forget it had been assumed he died. You have to piece things together first. I've no doubt that in the morning when they found Shasta and Bree gone, that Anradin would have then gone ballistic, maybe killing Arsheesh. Though I expect he would have kept the donkey to get back to the village.

What I meant by being 'in cahoots' is that they had met and were in a conspiracy together.

Is there some other definition that I wasn't aware of

Anradin might have been bad-tempered, but losing his temper isn't the way to win wars. It certainly isn't how to get information out of frightened peasants, or how to uphold the district laws.

Two reasons this doesn't work. One, they weren't in a war; they were trying to prevent Narnia from winning a future war. Any information that he needed, he certainly got out of Arsheesh. He had more than enough information needed to convict Shasta of being "The Chosen One."

Though I expect he would have kept the donkey to get back to the village.

For some reason, I just can't picture a Tarkhaan stooping low enough to ride a donkey. . . funny image though (and for all we're given in the text, it could have happened).

I really think that we need a proper thread in this forum to discuss the literary Calormen, the civilization of which I'm beginning to think is quite a bit more involved than it appears at first sight.

As a moderator for this section, I have absolutely no problem with this idea. Feel free to start one. Just mention in the opening post that Calormen discussions have overwhelmed a thread meant to talk about broader issues, and that a "Calormen Issues" thread (or something of the like) was needed. To be honest, I have been contemplating this idea for a few days now too.

Anradin has such a short temper, that if he would have known about Shasta, I highly doubt he'd have inquired subtly. He would have rushed into Arsheesh's house, killed Shasta (probably Arshessh too for good measure) and then burnt the place to the ground.

I disagree. Anradin was cool and calculating; his care for the valuable war-horses is a sign of that.
If there was any suspicion at all that this boy was, or could pass for, the missing prince, I am quite sure that those who knew would have kept it as quiet as possible, until they had all the weapons in their hand to use him. That is, to have in your possession the rightful heir to the throne of neighbouring country opens the way to a takeover in the name of the "rightful heir" as soon as Lune died, with a Regent from Calormen. To spring a plot like that would require great delicacy in the early stages.

I don't imagine that Rabadash would have been involved in such a plot, though.

Hien, I think you are right. Arsheesh was a very practical sort of person, with no imagination, who never saw beyond the day's work. All he knew were the circumstances of how he found the baby. If he really understood just how valuable Shasta was, he would have asked for more money for him.

As it was, Shasta did have an acknowledged economic value, since as Anradin said, Arsheesh had profited by '10 times the worth of his (Shasta's) daily bread...in labour'. There was no point in Anradin saying more, to tell Arsheesh anything at all, having extracted enough information out of him to confirm any suspicions he might have had.

I don't imagine that Rabadash would have been involved in such a plot, though.

No, I don't think so either. Rabadash had thought of a quicker way to the same end, that is to say, for Calormen to get control of Archenland and Narnia, either by marrying Susan or by using the excuse of being a jilted suitor for Susan's hand. Probably that was why Anradin was going to Tashbaan with Bree, at Rabadash's summons. Rabadash doesn't seem old anyway. At most he would have been in his twenties. He, himself, might not have known about the missing prince, being a child, himself, at the time of his father's accession. The Tisroc, himself, or maybe the previous Tisroc, might have known about Lord Bar, his agent in Archenland, since it was in the first year of the current Tisroc's reign that Arsheesh found the baby.

Perhaps it was the failure of the Lord Bar plot that made the Tisroc so reluctant to get involved in any further Northern adventures. It would make more sense for him to pick on Archenland at that time, if he thought the White Witch still ruled Narnia. And Lord Bar's death would explain why the Grand Vizier's information was at least a decade out of date. (HHB, p. 91)

The problem I have with that scenario is that the timing is out. If Shasta was born in the first year of the Tisroc's reign, and that was the same year as when the White Witch was killed, 2000 according to Brian Sibley's timeline, he would have been thirteen or fourteen by the time the events in HHB took place, since the following year, the Pevensies followed the White Stag back to England.

Also, how did Rabadash learn about Susan, if the first time he saw her was in his visit to Cair Paravel?

For some reason, I just can't picture a Tarkhaan stooping low enough to ride a donkey. . . funny image though (and for all we're given in the text, it could have happened).

Walking back to the village would be slower than riding a donkey. They didn't have mobile phones in C.S.Lewis' day, let alone in Calormen. And no, we aren't told, because as Aslan keeps saying, nobody is told any story but his own.

Oh, and an earlier mistake of mine- I said that Lord Bar probably seized Shasta/Cor as a hostage; but checking the book it says that he definitely took Cor specifically because of the prophecy.

That's right and thank you for the compliments. But why would the prophecy upset Lord Bar? Did he feel that the Calormenes would be a better bet than the White Witch?

Hien, I think you are right. Arsheesh was a very practical sort of person, with no imagination, who never saw beyond the day's work. All he knew were the circumstances of how he found the baby. If he really understood just how valuable Shasta was, he would have asked for more money for him.

As it was, Shasta did have an acknowledged economic value, since as Anradin said, Arsheesh had profited by '10 times the worth of his (Shasta's) daily bread...in labour'. There was no point in Anradin saying more, to tell Arsheesh anything at all, having extracted enough information out of him to confirm any suspicions he might have had.

I don't imagine that Rabadash would have been involved in such a plot, though.

Hmmm, are people saying Anradin already knew about Shasta? I think at most he might have heard stories of a Northern boy of about the right age, and that probably very recently.

Perhaps it was the failure of the Lord Bar plot that made the Tisroc so reluctant to get involved in any further Northern adventures. It would make more sense for him to pick on Archenland at that time, if he thought the White Witch still ruled Narnia. And Lord Bar's death would explain why the Grand Vizier's information was at least a decade out of date. (HHB, p. 91)
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The problem I have with that scenario is that the timing is out. If Shasta was born in the first year of the Tisroc's reign, and that was the same year as when the White Witch was killed, 2000 according to Brian Sibley's timeline, he would have been thirteen or fourteen by the time the events in HHB took place, since the following year, the Pevensies followed the White Stag back to England.

I'm having a problem following you here -what info is that?

What problem with the timing?

Howdid Rabadash learn about Susan, if the first time he saw her was in his visit to Cair Paravel?

From a description? Narnia and Calormen must have opened trade relations by sea somewhat earlier; at the end of LWW it says kings sent their ambassadors to ask for Susan's hand.

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That's right and thank you for the compliments. But why would the prophecy upset Lord Bar? Did he feel that the Calormenes would be a better bet than the White Witch?

Depending on the exact dates, the Witch might have already been overthrown by the time the twins were born, leaving Calormen the most likely choice- unless Mt. Pire woke up again.

Hmmm, are people saying Anradin already knew about Shasta? I think at most he might have heard stories of a Northern boy of about the right age, and that probably very recently.

I don't know (well, none of us can!) but it is at least possible that Anradin did know that the Archenland prince had been stolen, because it is at least possible that it was Anradin's home that Lord Bar was making for when the ship ran into rough weather. Though now I see that I could be misinterpreting, and that you were asking if Anradin already knew that Shasta was that same missing child? And if so, no I don't think he knew, though he may have suspected (or, as I hinted above, may have thought that this boy could be passed off as the prince).

Of course, for a 'rightful heir' plot to succeed, Lune had to die at the right time, that is, when the 'heir' was to hand, and under control of the intended Regent - at the right time, and not before. Anradin may not have been Rabadash's man at all, but there at the battle to manipulate as the occasion allowed.

On a different point:

Walking back to the village would be slower than riding a donkey.

Oh, I don't think so; an angry man walks fast, and donkeys walk slow - more slowly than the angry man, anyway, over a shortish distance. But the picture of Anradin, fuming on a donkey is very funny!

Yes, a fully armed Tarkaan, riding on a donkey would look funny, and it would be humiliating for him, even if he led the donkey. But then the donkey would be worth something to trade with, if he wanted a better mount, now Bree had gone. Anradin, whatever he did with Arsheesh, would want to be compensated for the loss of Bree. Just my thoughts.

it is at least possible that Anradin did know that the Archenland prince had been stolen, because it is at least possible that it was Anradin's home that Lord Bar was making for when the ship ran into rough weather.

That is what I thought originally, that Anradin merely suspected that either the baby might have survived the battle, after all, or that it might just have been a useful co-incidence, that some time or other he could take advantage of. I also thought that a man who rides a Narnian horse might well have had dealings with the people who captured both Bree and Hwin, even if he wasn't directly involved with treachery in Archenland. I think though that Anradin would make a much more likely villain or suspect than Aravis' dad whose children certainly had a sense of honour.

Of course, for a 'rightful heir' plot to succeed, Lune had to die at the right time, that is, when the 'heir' was to hand, and under control of the intended Regent - at the right time, and not before.

Not necessarily. Shasta, because of his looks, and resemblance to Corin, would be a bankable asset, frozen in slavery for a future opportunity. I agree that the longer King Lune lives, the worse it is for anyone plotting against him.