I've a feeling that fan fiction works best when it is used to work out a plot-hole, or other mysteries within a story, or else with minor characters and incidents alluded to but never explained fully. EG. people like Swanwhite the Narnian Queen, or how King Gale defeated the Lone Island dragon. Or how Jadis got control over Narnia in the first place.

I agree, the main focus of fan fiction should be to explore what the author felt best to leave out. (Not necessarily plot holes-but it could include that- plot holes implies that the story does not make sense logically). It could be something the author mentioned but chose to not expand or something that happens beyond the story. (I do confess I wrote an alternate ending to the musical Love Never Dies, which in my opinion is a much better ending- but don't tell Andrew Lloyd Webber). The main focus should not be so much to alter what the author wrote, although at times it is necessary, but to expand upon the already existing story. Fan fiction is a great way to express oneself and improve one's writing; however, fan fiction at it's lowest point in my opinion is the slash fan fiction. In any case, these stories go way too far and are just plain disgusting.

To get back to the main focus of relationships in Narnia, there really is no need for romance within the stories Lewis already gave us. He chose what relationships were needed and avoided ones that complicated the story. He was obviously not opposed to romance, since Cor and Aravis later got married to each other and he mentions that even Hwin and Bree found a significant other. Beyond the stories we already have? It would be interesting to imagine what would have happened if Susan had married Rabadash or the wives of King Frank's sons.

To get back to the main focus of relationships in Narnia, there really is no need for romance within the stories Lewis already gave us. He chose what relationships were needed and avoided ones that complicated the story. He was obviously not opposed to romance, since Cor and Aravis later got married to each other and he mentions that even Hwin and Bree found a significant other. Beyond the stories we already have? It would be interesting to imagine what would have happened if Susan had married Rabadash or the wives of King Frank's sons.

I don't think that Susan would have married the wives of King Frank's sons. But I think that asking what would have happened - logically - if Susan had married Rabadash is quite a good question. Why, exactly, if C.S.Lewis only put in the romances that were necessary, did he have Susan knock back Rabadash? For example, how would it have affected the rest of the series if she hadn't? Does C.S.Lewis infer in any way in HHB or any of the other books that Susan would never marry? Or that she would be turned off the idea of any sort of romance entirely? And if Susan was dabbling with romance in HHB, what do you make of that well known criticism of LB that "Susan was debarred from Narnia heaven because she had discovered romance"?

Prince Caspian was a perfect example of how NOT to play cupid, stupid, immature and totally useless to the plot. If they had done it decently at least then I could appreciate the effort, but it was horribly done.

Er, by that statement, do you mean "Suspian"? I understand from the material included with the DVD of Walden's Prince Caspian, that Andrew Adamson felt that Susan's character in the books suggests she would flirt with Caspian if she had the chance, because that was also part of her character curve. Also, having messed with the Prince Caspian timeline and omitted much of the Narnia romp of the book, it was necessary to find something else for Susan to do besides being the wet blanket who criticised Lucy, in particular. And, if it was inappropriate for Susan to get involved with Prince Caspian romantically, how was it more appropriate for her to get involved at all with Rabadash in HHB, which has never been filmed?

(I do confess I wrote an alternate ending to the musical Love Never Dies, which in my opinion is a much better ending- but don't tell Andrew Lloyd Webber). The main focus should not be so much to alter what the author wrote, although at times it is necessary, but to expand upon the already existing story. Fan fiction is a great way to express oneself and improve one's writing....

If at any time you did meet Andrew Lloyd Webber, you might ask him why he ended his story the way he did instead of, say, your idea, whatever it was, or living happily ever after, or riding off into the sunset? I'm surprised he even supplied a sequel to Phantom of the Opera, which wasn't lacking in strategic deaths to round it off.

Nevertheless, I agree with you that some fan fiction might be a good way to understand the story as well as improve writing styles. One of my daughters, obliged to study an Australian novel, Criena Rohan's The delinquents, had to write a fan fiction style alternative ending to it as a class project. Is there anything wrong with writing such material when it is for school, or for a competition? Or do such efforts illustrate Ithilien's idea that it truly flatters the author?

Some authors do also write novels etc as commentaries on other literary works. Neil Gaiman, the author of Coraline, wrote a short story called 'The problem of Susan',which can be found in his volume, 'Fragile things', published in 2004. Here the alleged Susan Pevensie briefly revisits her romantic past before the train accident. And I've just finished reading another, similar, sort of literary work, Macbeth and Son, in which Jackie French, the author, explores the stark differences between the historic Macbeth and the Macbeth of Shakespeare's famous play. Ms French even goes to the trouble of including at the end of the book the sort of society Scotland was at that time, the sort of diet they had, the way they lived, their methods of selecting kings and she, herself, supplies within the book, some cogent answers as to why Shakespeare basically lied about this king, however good the play was.

What is your take on this sort of 'fan-fiction'?

I personally am not against that sort of fan-fiction because in the examples you gave, the fan-fiction mostly focused on expanding the given story. I've read through some fan-fiction and most of it focuses on an aspect of a story and adds more to it. (Most Narnia fan fiction that I've read is about Susan after her family's death.) A lot of fan-fiction focuses on keeping continuity with the story and adds emotional meaning to the story, for example Susan's emotions as she forgets Narnia and her family is all dead. I suppose that the emotion-based fan fiction could include the romances, but most of the time does not go along with the story. For me, especially with Narnia FF, it is very important to stick to the books and not make it totally random, i.e. an Edward Cullen/Lucy romance.

Erk! Lucy and Edward Cullen? How awful! Exactly what would these two characters from entirely different fantasy series, have in common, anyway, to be drawn together into someone's fan fiction? Or did the author of that fan fiction, not having read either series properly, not realise that the Twilight series, unlike Narnia, is definitely adult?

(Most Narnia fan fiction that I've read is about Susan after her family's death.) A lot of fan-fiction focuses on keeping continuity with the story and adds emotional meaning to the story, for example Susan's emotions as she forgets Narnia and her family is all dead.

Yes, Susan, definitely a dabbler in romance, herself, would be a most suitable subject for a fan fic. I wonder if that is why C.S.Lewis wrote her like that so that her fate would be open ended, not final like the others?

MOD NOTE: While this thread started out as a thread about various "ships," and then morphed into a discussion of fan-fiction in general, discussing ships between book series is going across the line. Please drop the conversation about a possible Lucy/Edward Cullen ship, and let's see if we can get back on topic.

DiGoRyKiRkE: Talk About Narnia Moderator.

Fair enough, we were discussing various ships, most of which found at popular websites are not canon. At first there was general agreement how bad fan fiction can be, and that the over inclusion of romance spilled over into films, including PC with its Suspian romantic inclusion. Strangely, these movies could play down canonical romances, such as Caspian and Liliandil in VDT. However, 'Suspian', in the film Prince Caspian, was terminated when Susan, herself, essentially pointed out the unsuitability of a Narnian romancing someone from our world because of the different timing of each world. However, this problem didn't seem to be the reason why she was fleeing from Rabadash in book HHB, chronologically before PC. And I'm not sure why C.S.Lewis felt that Uncle Andrew's vain fascination for Jadis in MN was silly, when I couldn't help thinking that Andrew and Jadis deserved each other.

Some posters have considered some 'ships' within the Narnia series, including Digory and Polly. Contrary to belief, C.S.Lewis did include romance in each of his Narnia books, except possibly the last. However, there had to be reasons within the stories why C.S.Lewis didn't want that particular 'ship'. Was it only because he had already written Digory as single in LWW, as Varnafinde pointed out? I still think it would be also a consequence of Uncle Andrew's meddling and the quarrel in Charn.

There is a danger with fan-fiction which intrudes upon an author's copyright, and so, unlike Ithilwen, a budding author, herself, not all authors would be as flattered by readers continuing to 'play in an author's sandpit'. But does this apply to exercises set in class on a novel that is being studied, which might include alternative endings, for example? Or to original works as commentaries on other people's writings? One such example I have mentioned is Neil Gaiman's 'The Problem of Susan', a short story about a journalist who believes that the retired professor of Children's Literature she is interviewing is 'that Susan Pevensie', since the professor, as a party-going young woman, had also lost her three siblings, one of which was called 'Ed', in the same life-changing train accident in which the Seven Friends of Narnia died in LB.

Lilygloves, who confesses to having written an alternative ending to a musical, and myself, were agreeing that some fan-fiction writings were to amplify and explain novels to help the writer understand them. Unsurprisingly, most of the fan-fictions Lilygloves has seen about Susan Pevensie seem to be also supplying alternative endings to her story and go some way to conform to the Narnia canon.

These seem to resemble the Gaiman short story, in which the journalist misquotes C.S.Lewis' observations that Susan was a vain and silly young woman who might mend and get to Narnia in her own time and way. Since Susan in HHB was definitely a dabbler in 'romance', and since 'romance' is definitely part of one's emotions, it would be highly unlikely that even these fan-fictions do not include 'romance' at some level, especially when from what is said about Susan in LB has led to well-known criticisms that Susan forgot Narnia because of her post VDT discovery of 'romance'.

So I have to wonder: Why exactly did C.S.Lewis leave Susan's lifestory open-ended? And I also wonder from reading the series what it would have meant for Narnia, and for Susan, herself, if Susan had gone ahead with her betrothal to Rabadash in HHB? Of course by the time HHB was published, Susan had already returned to the real world in LWW, she had a further adventure in Narnia in PC, and in VDT she was off to America. Was she still in America when she is next mentioned in the series, in LB, for instance? Or what else was she doing when the train accident killed the Seven Friends of Narnia and her parents?

I don't really care for Narnia fan fiction relationships that were not in the books, or written as Lewis intended.
I find it a nice change to not have every couple get to together at the end of every story! It seems so over done now, that whenever I re-read Narnia, each of the characters and their relationships seem more real to me because they didn't all get together like most stories do.

Even Lewis' explanation for Aravis and Cor getting married seems more real to me then the stuff written today:

Aravis also had many quarrels (and, I'm afraid, even fights) with Cor, but they always made it up again: so that years later, when they were grown up, they were so used to quarrelling and making it up again that they got married so as to go on doing it more conveniently.
Ch. 15 : Rabadash the Ridiculous

That's a very unromantic way of describing the relationship between Aravis and Cor, and I think it fits very well into the way Lewis writes all the books.

I've seen fan fiction stories that go deeper into their relationship, and which focus on adventures they had together - and gives examples of the quarrels! I think that's better than making them too romantic - most of Lewis' characters aren't. Except perhaps Lasaraleen. But then again he doesn't give us a lot of details about her.

I don't care much for Narnian fan-fiction because I personally like the series the way it is, and don't really see anything in them that would need to be changed or developed. I do like to daydream a little bit about certain characters and how they would go on living in New Narnia, but I don't care very much for writing it down as a continuation of lives in Narnia.
All that to say, though, I have to admit, I have a soft spot for a Tirian/Lucy and a Jill/The Telmorine who comes to New Narnia (I really seriously keep forgetting his name!!!!) relationship, and it's something I would like to think of as having happened in New Narnia.

I'll say that, while I enjoy fanfiction, I'm very much a "must fit within canon" reader/writer. As such, non-canon anything, but especially romances, are my biggest pet peeve of that particular section of the fandom. I don't... mind if someone wants to ship say, Digory and Polly, or Jill and Eustace, but it's not my cup of tea.

Besides that, I think the characters do just fine on their own, without the romance. A lot of stories of recent years throw in a romance subplot, even if it makes no logical sense, just because it's an easy way to create emotional tension between the hero and heroine. It's why love interests tend to be so annoyingly shallow in (for example) comic-book based movies or Lone Hero action flicks. :/

Some of the best Narnian fan fiction I've read, focuses on the Golden Age - all those years when the Pevensies ruled from Cair Paravel, and which Lewis only wrote one story from. So far the writer has written mostly about adventures and about Peter and Edmund defending each other in battles.

There would be room for romance in that period, although most likely coming to nothing, as there is no indication that any of the Four were married when they were taken back to England. (It might be possible, but I would see it as close to Alternative Universe if they were.)

This writer introduces a law that Edmund makes, saying that as Aslan intended the Four to be the rulers, any spouses would not become Kings or Queens. The law dashes the dreams of suitors who primarily want to become King or perhaps High Queen (so the law is commonly called The Dream Dasher).

Whether a non-canon romance should be in a movie adaptation or not depends a great deal on how it's done. If it comes across as shallow and unnecessary, it's obviously a bad idea. But if they find a way for it to benefit the story, then by all means, let it happen. I'm only a theme-purist. Not an event-purist. As long as the heart and soul of the books are there, I'm a happy viewer.

However, I think I personally would not like any romance involving Lucy, no matter how well it's done. That's because of what Lucy represents to me in the story. She's always been a sort of role model to me of following Christ rather than following people, even people close to you, if they contradict what Christ says. The real beauty about her is that her focus is entirely on Aslan, and no one else. If she was in love, her focus would be on both Aslan and a human. I think that would harm her character, overall.

~Riella

Interesting, Ithie. I've never liked Lucy romances just because of her age (she's 11 tops, people, this is not Soul Mate time!), but I wouldn't have had a problem with her finding someone later in life... So I guess you see Lucy as a sort of nun? In the good way, I mean, not the stuffy, marriage-is-evil sort of way.

Interesting, Ithie. I've never liked Lucy romances just because of her age (she's 11 tops, people, this is not Soul Mate time!), but I wouldn't have had a problem with her finding someone later in life... So I guess you see Lucy as a sort of nun? In the good way, I mean, not the stuffy, marriage-is-evil sort of way.

Yeah, I suppose a nun would be a good example. I view her as having the "Gift of Singleness" that Paul alludes to in the Bible, when he says it's better not to marry so that our entire focus can be on God.

I definitely see what you mean about her age. Although, that wouldn't be an issue in an HHB adaptation, since they're all grown up in that, I believe.

~Riella

Not an issue for HHB, no, but it's usually PC or VDT era for Lucy (...or Tumnus. *grimace*).

I don't know, though... I don't think a husband would have detracted from Lucy's love for Aslan, in fact I have a difficult time imagining Lucy wouldn't have gotten married (she's quite the people person, you see). Of course, the train accident blew all such plans out of the metaphysical water.