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[Closed] Narnian Language(s)

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HighQueenofNarnia
(@highqueenofnarnia)
NarniaWeb Nut

I am firmly convinced that there is at least one Narnian language in Narnia- possibly more. I was wondering what people's thoughts on Narnian language(s). What does it sound like? Did Aslan invent it or did King Frank and Queen Helen? Is there an Archenlandish language too? Are there any other origins? (Yes, the adjective for Archenland is Archenlandish, not Archenlandian or Archenlandese or something else.) I know that there is a Calormene language. I think that Aslan's song in MN is in a Narnian language, and many Narnians must have heard it. Also the letters on the Stone Table have the written form. By the way, does anyone have a transcript from LWW movie of those letters? I know that I've seen them somewhere, but I can't remember where! I hate that feeling!

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Topic starter Posted : February 24, 2010 12:11 pm
DiGoRyKiRkE
(@digorykirke)
The Logical Ornithological Mod Moderator

Hmm. . . I'm not entirely convinced that there is, and there certainly isn't any evidence for one in a book.

As for Frank and Helen "inventing" a language, I think that is highly unlikely. Just inventing a language is not easy. . . not in the least. It would definitely be out of the educational background of a London cabby, and his wife.

As for Archenland, they are descended from King Frank and Queen Helen (fifth generation I think. . . ), so it is highly unlikely that they would have invented a language. Not only would it have been difficult, but it would also have been utterly impractical.

As for Calormen, we're told that their race is descended from a group of bandits (not pirates). That information comes from the Narnian timeline, and can't be traced directly to the book, but evidence for a Calormene language just isn't there.

Aslan's song is likely in a language entirely his own. My guess would be that it is a similar language that is engraved on the stone table, as well as the firestones of the secret hill. My guess is that it would be a language spoken only between Aslan, and the emperor beyond the sea.

So, as far as your question goes, the only language that I think would be originally Narnian would be something that goes between the trees, rivers, nymphs, etc... You might be able to find enough evidence in the texts for a language between the giants of Ettinsmoor, but you also have the line in The Silver Chair which states that their words are meaningless.

Any ways, if you have any textual evidence for any of your claims, I'd be really intrigued in seeing them, but, as far as I remember, there are none.

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Posted : February 24, 2010 2:09 pm
stargazer
(@stargazer)
Member Moderator

I'd also thought of Aslan's creation-language as being special and unique (though that opinion might be influenced by its similarity (to me at any rate) to the creation account early in The Silmarillion).

I don't have textual evidence per se, but it seems that the characters from the various countries are able to understand each other pretty well: notably in HHB (with Narnians, Calormenes, and Archenlanders), PC (Telmarines and Narnians) and LB (the trade between Narnians and Calormenes). There's no indication of translators present in these scenes - though part of this may be because Narnia is primarily a work for children and Lewis may not have felt the need for multiple languages).

Interestingly, the Telmarines are descended from Pacific Ocean pirates who may not have spoken anything similar to the English Frank and Helen brought to Narnia, yet apparently they could be understood by the others in PC.

Still, I imagine that over the years various differences would develop in each country, due to separation from the others by geographic features (like mountains or deserts). But the result might be more like dialects than separate languages. Or perhaps there were more significant differences in each country's language, and there was some sort of lingua franca to facilitate trade and other negotiations.

But all night, Aslan and the Moon gazed upon each other with joyful and unblinking eyes.

Posted : February 24, 2010 3:15 pm
Meltintalle
(@mel)
Member Moderator

Not only would it have been difficult, but it would also have been utterly impractical.

Exactly. They already understood the Narnians, and the Narnians understood them.

Lewis created a world with fewer complexities than the one Tolkien created. As Stargazer mentioned, language barriers had no place in his stories, so although one could say that because the Calormen names have a similar feel (Aravis, Arsheesh, Zardeena) that set them apart from those of Narnia or Archenland (Cor, Lune, Darin) there must be a language to go with it, I'm not sure what the point would be.

I'm willing to be convinced that the Talking Horses had a language of their own, making them bilingual, but if your goal is to be able to speak a distinctly Narnian tongue two names without translation aren't going to get you very far.

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Posted : February 25, 2010 6:03 am
Aravis Narnia
(@aravis-narnia)
NarniaWeb Nut

I could see this being a plot hole...or a hint.

It seems like everyone is understanding each other easily.

The Narnian first language being English I can understand, since Frank and Helen (and Fledge) were pulled out of England.

But how about the non-human creatures living in other places? Such as the Marshwiggles and the giants. And even the talking animals- though these could be accounted for by picking up Frank's and Helen's language.

I know that English is considered the universal language. But had C.S. Lewis been truly objective, what language would it have been that Aslan had the creatures speak?

Spinoff- was C.S. Lewish himself familiar with Hebrew? How about Greek and Latin...although technically those were the languages of the civilians that had taken over.

Posted : February 26, 2010 1:03 am
DiGoRyKiRkE
(@digorykirke)
The Logical Ornithological Mod Moderator

I think if anything that a Narnian language would be strictly Narnian. I don't believe that it could be associated with any language here in this world. To assume otherwise is to assume a "our-world-centric" view of all worlds, which doesn't make a lot of sense. After all, our pool is no larger than any other.

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Posted : February 26, 2010 2:23 am
Lucy P.
(@lucy-p)
NarniaWeb Nut

C.S. Lewis was quite fluent in Latin; in fact, there is a collection of letters that he and an Italian priest wrote to each other in Latin since neither could understand the other's native language. For some reason, Greek is ringing a bell but I'm not sure whether Lewis knew it or not. It would make sense with the classical education he had.

However, I have noticed not evidence for language in Narnia based off of any language except English. Lewis liked to keep things simple. ;)

I should think though that in slang and idioms Archenland would be most like Narnia. I always imagined the relationship between the two countries to be like the one between Canada and the US- close physically, culturally, and ally-wise.


Quod Erat Demonstrandum

Posted : February 26, 2010 5:59 am
HighQueenofNarnia
(@highqueenofnarnia)
NarniaWeb Nut

Thanks for all your input! I just remembered that in LWW, there is "Deep Magic". Jadis knew this Deep Magic, as did Aslan. I'm not saying that there is a spoken language in this form, but how did Jadis come to know it? And Jadis could also understand Aslan's song in MN. Quote from book: "But the Witch looked as if, in a way, she understood the music much better than any of them."
There is also the "Deplorable Word" mystery in MN. But I know, I know, that is in Charn.
The giant's language is meaningless to the Narnians because they don't understand it. But the giants themselves, up in Ettinsmoor, understand the language.
Also, in MN when Aslan created the animals and gave them the ability to speak, they already knew a certain language. It seems to be English.
Would the Lone Islands have a language? or the stars?
I am still convinced that there is a language of the Narnians.

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Topic starter Posted : February 26, 2010 9:56 am
daughter of the King
(@dot)
Princess Dot Moderator

in LWW, there is "Deep Magic". Jadis knew this Deep Magic, as did Aslan. I'm not saying that there is a spoken language in this form, but how did Jadis come to know it? And Jadis could also understand Aslan's song in MN. Quote from book: "But the Witch looked as if, in a way, she understood the music much better than any of them."

She knew the Deep Magic because she was a magician herself. She could sense magic wherever it was. I'm not entirely sure she actually understood the words of Aslan's song, but she knew what they meant. As a magician, she would be able to tell what the magic was doing even if she didn't fully understand the spell causing it.

The giant's language is meaningless to the Narnians because they don't understand it. But the giants themselves, up in Ettinsmoor, understand the language.

I don't think the giants really had much of a language. It sounds like nonsense because it is nonsense. The giants are really like drastically overgrown toddlers and when they get mad they just start shouting and whining. "They stormed and jeered at one another in long, meaningless words of about twenty syllables each." The Wild Waste Lands of the North

As for the animals, they spoke the language that Aslan gave them. I really don't think C.S.Lewis put much thought into the languages. Tolkien would probably have written out separate languages for Narnia, Calormen, the Lone Islands, Archenland, and Dufflepud Island, knowing the detail he went into, but C.S.Lewis was more simplistic.

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Posted : February 26, 2010 11:09 am
Aravis Narnia
(@aravis-narnia)
NarniaWeb Nut

Were the inscriptions in the Stone Table trying to parallel the ancient Runes of Germanic languages that English descends from? Or trying to parallel Hebrew? Were any of the characters in LWW able to read them at all?

Posted : February 26, 2010 11:30 am
DiGoRyKiRkE
(@digorykirke)
The Logical Ornithological Mod Moderator

But the giants themselves, up in Ettinsmoor, understand the language.

It's all very well and good to make this claim, but without any text to back it up, they're just empty words. Daughter of the King correctly quotes The Silver Chair by saying that the words are meaningless. I wouldn't hold much merit in lthe linguistic skills of a group of people who's most difficult task is knocking over a pile of rocks, and have skulls so thick that stone mallets bounce off of them.

Would the Lone Islands have a language? or the stars?

I highly doubt that the Lone Islands would have had a different language than that of mainland Narnia (English). After all, they were a Narnian territory, who would have likely been peopled by Narnians (or Archenlanders, which are descended from Narnians). When King Gale rescued the Lone Islanders from the dragon, he likely cemented English as the main spoken language of the island.

As for the stars, The Magician's Nephew does mention the stars speaking. It is in the scene of Narnia's creation, as Aslan is singing. "The first wonder was that the voice was suddenly joined by other voices. More voices than any of them could count. They were in harmony with it, but far higher up the scale; cold, tingling, silvery voices." The problem with this, is that we're not told of the words that are spoken by the stars; Lewis only describes their voices. The fact that Ramandu speaks English suggests to me that the stars spoke the same language as men. If his native tongue was that of the stars (assuming of course that there is a language of the stars) he wouldn't speak English, because travellers to his island would be of such a rarity, that there wouldn't be sufficient exposure to language to learn English.

I am still convinced that there is a language of the Narnians.

Being convinced of something just doesn't make it true (although I wish that this were the case). If there were any evidence in the texts for such a claim, I would be more than willing to agree with you, but, until you can find some evidence to back up your claim, then we really can't assume anything about the texts. I urge you to search through the texts, and find something that backs up your claim. Always go back to the texts to find the bases for your claims, because if they are founded on anything else, then they're just empty words.

Were the inscriptions in the Stone Table trying to parallel the ancient Runes of Germanic languages that English descends from? Or trying to parallel Hebrew?

Again, I don't believe that you can parallel the language of Aslan to any language spoken in this or any other world. If Aslan does have a tongue of his own; a language imbued with magic capable of creating a world, then I highly doubt that any other creature would have been able to speak or understand it.

Member of Ye Olde NarniaWeb

Posted : February 26, 2010 12:29 pm
Narnia #1 Fan
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NarniaWeb Regular

Hmmm......

I don't recall ever reading about a Narnian language in the books. The only one I can think of is the Calormenes I think had a language they spoke. :)

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Posted : March 3, 2010 3:48 am
Varnafinde
(@varna)
Princess of the Noldor and Royal Overseer of the Talk About Narnia forum Moderator

I don't think Lewis mentions languages at all - if he does, it is only as a very minor issue.
He just assumes that everyone understands everyone else, which is a reasonable enough simplification in a book for children. The books don't even mention that English is spoken - the books are written in English, is all.

(Tolkien treats languages very differently, but then he's not writing for children, and he's not mixing people from different worlds.)

It makes sense, though, that English may have survived over the centuries, as it was the language of the royal court from King Frank and Queen Helen's time onwards.

Although it wouldn't have been without sense for there to have been some kind of native language as well, one that perhaps was only spoken by the animals and the 'mythological' creatures. But this is pure fan fiction (and useful for writers of such), and not somehing found in the books.


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Posted : March 3, 2010 5:17 am
Bother Eustace
(@bother-eustace)
NarniaWeb Junkie

I'm no linguist, but I'd agree with the general consensus that the development of separate languages probably wouldn't have been able to occur in Narnia, since all of the nations we know of stemmed from King Frank and Queen Helen (with the exception of the Telmarines, but they clearly speak English in PC). Separate dialects may have arisen, but even that is unlikely to occur without long periods of time and some sort of major cultural separation. If anyone did have a separate dialect, it would be the Calormenes or the Islanders.

I would say, though, that it's safe to assume there were many different accents in Narnia, depending on where one was from. The people of the separate islands could concievably develop their own natural 'flavor' of speaking.

EDIT: A thought just occured to me (a remembrance, really)... in Prince Caspian, when Peter and Edmund are being led by Trumpkin into the How, doesn't the book mention that the walls are covered in writings of some unknown language? I suddenly remember reading that... if so, what language would that be? For now I'm going to go check my PC book to see if I'm imagining this or not.


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Posted : March 4, 2010 9:08 am
daughter of the King
(@dot)
Princess Dot Moderator

in Prince Caspian, when Peter and Edmund are being led by Trumpkin into the How, doesn't the book mention that the walls are covered in writings of some unknown language?

The tunnels...were lined and roofed with smooth stones, and on the stones...Caspian saw strange characters and snaky patterns, and pictures in which the form of a Lion was repeated again and again. It all seemed to belong to an even older Narnia than the Narnia of which his nurse had told him. Old Narnia in Danger

"I say, Peter," whispered Edmund. "Look at those carvings on the walls. Don't they look old? And yet we're older than that. When we were last here, they hadn't been made." Sorcery and Sudden Vengeance

Based on those two quotes, I think the carvings are not another language, but simply a style of writing that Caspian is unfamiliar with.

ahsokasig
Narniaweb sister to Pattertwig's Pal

Posted : March 4, 2010 10:59 am
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