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Did Aslan create the Wood between the Worlds? If so, did he create Charn?

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KingEdTheJust
(@kingedthejust)
NarniaWeb Nut

I believe I mentioned this subject in another topic (The Worlds beyond the Pools) and I decided to make a topic on it. 

Posted by: @kingedthejust

If Aslan is the creator of Narnia and all things in that world, did he also create the wood between the worlds? And if he did, would he have created the worlds inside the wood such as Charn? If Aslan didn't create the woods, then perhaps his father, the Emperor over sea? Hmmm  

How much of Narnia did Aslan actually create? Just the land Narnia, the world Narnia ,or the Wood between the Worlds including Narnia and all the other pools? 

In The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe, Mr. Beaver says: 

"Aslan?” said Mr Beaver. “Why, don’t you know? He’s the King. He’s
the Lord of the whole wood," -The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe 

Although Lewis meant, the woods of Narnia of course, if the books were read in Chronological order, could it be implied that Aslan is the King of the Wood between the Worlds? 

-KingEdTheJust

"But even a traitor may mend. I have known one that did." - (King Edmund the Just, Horse and his Boy)

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Topic starter Posted : September 16, 2022 6:28 pm
coracle
(@coracle)
NarniaWeb's Auntie Moderator

@kingedthejust this is a difficult question. 

Reading in chronological order creates problems, since Lewis had no thought of the events of MN when he wrote LWW.  (And it sets up lots of spoilers for reading LWW too - it's much nicer to read in publication order, and go with Lucy innocently through the wardrobe for the first time)

Lewis was apparently planning to revise some of the inconsistencies, but became ill and couldn't do it. 

So perhaps we don't have a simple answer to your question. 

However, we know from VDT that Aslan IS in our world, where he has a different name, which Lewis wants us to understand is the name of the One who made our world. Lewis's faith and world-view would not allow anyone else to have created anything. (Note: MN was published after VDT)

So it seems we do have a simple answer: if Aslan is also the Creator of all things, then yes, he did make those other worlds and the Wood between them. Edit: and he is King of them.

(But:  when Lewis wrote MN, he may have still been working it all out, and what is true in the book is not true in our world in the same way - Lewis was definitely still fine-tuning that )

There, shining in the sunrise, larger than they had seen him before, shaking his mane (for it had apparently grown again) stood Aslan himself.
"...when a willing victim who had committed no treachery was killed in a traitor's stead, the Table would crack and Death itself would start working backwards."

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Posted : September 16, 2022 8:44 pm
Narnian78
(@narnian78)
NarniaWeb Guru

I always wondered if Charn was once a good world that had gone bad. When Digory and Polly arrived there they found that some of the people who had not been awakened had looked kind while others looked stern. This may have implied that some of them were not like Jadis and her sister.  It’s just like there can be good people living in a country ruled by tyrants. If Aslan is good, wouldn’t he have created all things good at the beginning of time (including people)?  And perhaps some of them would have remained that way.

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Posted : September 17, 2022 2:12 am
Courtenay
(@courtenay)
NarniaWeb Fanatic Hospitality Committee

@narnian78 It is implied very clearly in The Magician's Nephew that the people of Charn — or their rulers, who presumably are the only ones we see in the hall of statues — started out good and wise, but gradually became more and more corrupt and cruel down the generations. Here's what Digory and Polly see as they walk down the room (I think this may be one of the most evocative and thought-provoking passages of writing in all the Chronicles):

All the faces they could see were certainly nice. Both the men and women looked kind and wise, and they seemed to come of a handsome race. But after the children had gone a few steps down the room they came to faces that looked a little different. These were very solemn faces. You felt you would have to mind your P's and Q's, if you ever met living people who looked like that. When they had gone a little further, they found themselves among faces they didn't like: this was about the middle of the room. The faces here looked very strong and proud and happy, but they looked cruel. A little further on they looked crueller. Further on again, they were still cruel but they no longer looked happy. They were even despairing faces: as if the people they belonged to had done dreadful things and also suffered dreadful things. The last figure of all was the most interesting — a woman even more richly dressed than the others... with a look of such fierceness and pride that it took your breath away. Yet she was beautiful too.

That, of course, is Jadis, the last Queen of Charn, whose reign culminated in her destroying every living thing in her world with a single word — probably the ultimate act of evil if ever there was one. We're not told what it was that caused her ancestors' gradual descent through those increasing phases of cruelty, or whether anyone or anything could have reversed it and saved them at some stage before Jadis's time. Was Aslan (i.e. Christ) ever present there, in yet another form and under another name, but not enough people listened to and followed him? Did any of them at all still have at least some traces of goodness in them, even in the final years of Charn, and did any of them find themselves in Aslan's country after death? I would guess Lewis left that open for us to wonder about, rather than going off on tangents from a story that's mainly about Narnia, not Charn. But it's intriguing to speculate.

Given that Lewis was a very solid Christian and intended the Narnia books to reflect that faith, it doesn't make sense to believe he would invent a fantasy universe in which there is any creator other than the ONE God, who would have to be the same one who created our own world. So on that basis, there's no doubt whatsoever that Aslan did create the Wood between the worlds and did create Charn.

At least in the Narnia books, Lewis doesn't go into the unresolvable theological debate of God's omnipotence and omniscience vs human free will (I remember this coming up in another recent thread here), so we don't know to what extent the people of Charn were masters of their own destiny, or whether their decline and destruction was somehow pre-ordained and inevitable. I somehow don't think Lewis would have made it the latter; there's far too much throughout the Narnia books (and his other writings) about how people's own choices shape their fate, and how redemption through Christ IS possible for those with the humility and honesty to accept it when it's offered (like, of course, Edmund and Eustace, and unlike the Dwarfs in The Last Battle). It just doesn't seem at all likely that this God and Saviour, whom Lewis portrays in and as Aslan, would create a world and a people that were inherently doomed from the start and had no chance of salvation whatsoever. Which would have to mean that Aslan DID reach out to Charn in some way, but apparently was never accepted there, at least not by the vast majority of people. That's what makes sense to me, at least.

(Incidentally, re "the people who had not been awakened" in the hall at Charn — it's not set out in much detail, but according to Jadis: "I had already cast strong spells on the hall where the images of my ancestors sit. And the force of those spells was that I should sleep among them, like an image myself... till one struck the bell and awakened me." That clearly implies that the other figures in the hall were only "images", presumably statues, not the actual people themselves — whereas Jadis was still a real and living person, but became like a statue by her own magic. So that explains why she awoke when Digory rang the bell, but none of the other figures in the hall did. I wondered about that myself at first until I re-read the book and noticed that brief reference.)

"Now you are a lioness," said Aslan. "And now all Narnia will be renewed."
(Prince Caspian)

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Posted : September 17, 2022 5:43 am
Narnian78, Varnafinde, KingEdTheJust and 1 people liked
Narnian78
(@narnian78)
NarniaWeb Guru

@courtenay 

And the world was not stopped from ending even if there were still good people living in Charn.  It is like with Sodom and Gomorrah in the Bible.  I guess there weren’t enough righteous people living there so that the world of Charn could be saved. 

I avoid using capital letters to emphasize words in my messages because some people might see that as shouting. Maybe you feel differently about using them. Italics might be a better choice for online etiquette. That usually is my choice for making certain words stand out.  I’m sorry if I have offended you even if I have sometimes disagreed with you.  

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Posted : September 17, 2022 6:48 am
Courtenay
(@courtenay)
NarniaWeb Fanatic Hospitality Committee

@narnian78 You haven't offended me at all, and no, I wasn't intending to "shout" with capital letters! I just mean them as a slightly bigger emphasis than italics or bold text, that's all. But they definitely weren't a result of being upset (I'm not) and I'm happy to go back and edit them into bold or italics if you or anyone else did misunderstand my tone — I'm sorry, if so.

It's stated straight out in The Last Battle that "all worlds come to an end, except Aslan's country" — that's Jewel talking to Jill, but I only have a few minutes to write here and don't have time to get the book and find the exact quote. So from that, I take it that it wasn't simply a matter of how corrupt Charn was or whether its destruction could have been averted if there were enough good people still living there; there were certainly plenty of good Narnians left in Narnia in The Last Battle, as we see firsthand, and that didn't stop Narnia from coming to an end. So Charn, too, presumably would have ended some day even if it hadn't been for Jadis — just perhaps not as soon. And I should think we can also assume that the "real Charn" still exists in Aslan's country, like the "real Narnia" and the "real England" — the perfect and immortal version of which the mortal and doomed Charn was also only a shadow or a copy, and where the good that Charn did have in the beginning must have been preserved.

"Now you are a lioness," said Aslan. "And now all Narnia will be renewed."
(Prince Caspian)

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Posted : September 17, 2022 7:00 am
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Jasmine
(@jasmine_tarkheena)
NarniaWeb Guru

In The Last Battle, Jill mentions that our world was going to have an end someday. She asks Jewel if Narnia would go on and on. And Jewel says, "All worlds come to an end, except for Aslan's own country." And this is probably true of other worlds.

In Tolkien's Middle-Earth universe, Numenor, much like Charn, started out as a good nation. However, as time went on, it became corrupt and eventually was destroyed.

So Charn, as @narnian78 has said, started out as a good nation. In the hall of images, the first set of statues of kings and queens looked honest and kind. Then near the end, they looked proud and cruel. In The Last Battle, Narnia was taken over by the Calormenes, which was known to be a proud and cruel race (with the two exceptions, Aravis and Emeth, that is, but that's beside the point).

So could Aslan create other worlds, like Charn? Maybe the question should be, who created Charn?

 

 

 

"And this is the marvel of marvels, that he called me beloved."
(Emeth, The Last Battle)
https://escapetoreality.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/aslan-and-emeth2.jpg

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Posted : September 17, 2022 8:21 am
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KingEdTheJust
(@kingedthejust)
NarniaWeb Nut
Posted by: @jasmine_tarkheena

So could Aslan create other worlds, like Charn? Maybe the question should be, who created Charn?

It makes sense that Aslan created all the other worlds, including Charn, and like others said Charn most likely started off as a good world and then slowly developed into a bad one. However, if Aslan created all the worlds in the Wood between the Worlds, why was he only so involved in Narnia's future? Or was he? Was he just giving Charn the choice of free will? I wonder if Aslan also sent "heroes", like the Pevensies  into Charn to try to save it as he did Narnia. Was this Jadis's second time facing these "destined heroes?" Except in Narnia, she didn't succeed? Hmmm  

-KingEdTheJust 

"But even a traitor may mend. I have known one that did." - (King Edmund the Just, Horse and his Boy)

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Topic starter Posted : September 17, 2022 11:54 am
coracle
(@coracle)
NarniaWeb's Auntie Moderator

The point I left out of my earlier post is that if we reach the conclusion that Aslan created all the worlds in the Chronicles, and that Aslan is known in the Pevensies' home world of England, we still know that we are readers of a set of fictional stories. We have to draw a line between our world and all the places in Narnia. 

No matter how noble, good and beautiful it is, how much dignity and joy is there, it is the clever creation of one man and his pen. The humans are not real people, even though we have seen them played by real humans in film or on stage. There are no talking animals, living trees, or divine waters. 

But if we remove the Chronicles of Narnia, the One who created our world remains. The messages of the stories remain true and valid in our world. And that One may have created many things we have never heard of.

There, shining in the sunrise, larger than they had seen him before, shaking his mane (for it had apparently grown again) stood Aslan himself.
"...when a willing victim who had committed no treachery was killed in a traitor's stead, the Table would crack and Death itself would start working backwards."

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Posted : September 17, 2022 12:52 pm
KingEdTheJust
(@kingedthejust)
NarniaWeb Nut

Beautifully said, @coracle Applause  

It's hard to differentiate between our world and the world of books, but one thing that is always true about the literature we read is the messages that we learn from them. The lessons that Aslan teaches in Narnia, are still lessons we need to learn here on Earth. It's a wonderful thing, what we can learn from books. 

-KingEdTheJust

"But even a traitor may mend. I have known one that did." - (King Edmund the Just, Horse and his Boy)

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Topic starter Posted : September 17, 2022 1:10 pm
Courtenay and coracle liked
Narnian78
(@narnian78)
NarniaWeb Guru

@courtenay 

Thank you for changing the format of your wording.  In fact I agree with many of your ideas, and especially with the possibility of a good Charn within Aslan’s country. It would have been the way Aslan wanted it to be. Perhaps it did in fact exist in an opposite dimension like Star Trek’s “Mirror, Mirror” world.  I don’t know if I could so easily accept a Narnia in an opposite world that was like the Charn in The Magician’s Nephew, but I suppose that is possible, too.  However, I am not so comfortable with that idea. 🙂

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Posted : September 17, 2022 7:09 pm
Silverlily
(@silverlily)
NarniaWeb Junkie

...Hm... I sort of wonder. It seems like it's implied at least in places that Aslan is specifically the Son aspect of the Trinity, rather than being all of God? Son of the Emperor Over the Sea, etc? But at other times it seems like he's the embodiment of all of God. The three voices in the mist with Shasta being a clear Trinitarian echo, for instance. What I'm driving at is, did Aslan as Aslan create all the worlds, or was that God the Father/the Emperor's job? Is there a meaningful distinction??

Although yes, I would say that some manifestation of God created the Wood/Narnia-multiverse. Including Charn as it was before its corruption. And I have a personal hypothesis based on the bit about Lilith in LWW, George McDonald's Lilith-version, and Jadis' thing about being about to tell on sight if magic was in someone's family, that perhaps part of the decline and fall of Charn was magically powerful world-walkers wandering in and setting themselves up as gods, then intermarrying with noble bloodlines.

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Posted : January 12, 2023 1:07 am
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Courtenay
(@courtenay)
NarniaWeb Fanatic Hospitality Committee
Posted by: @silverlily

...Hm... I sort of wonder. It seems like it's implied at least in places that Aslan is specifically the Son aspect of the Trinity, rather than being all of God? Son of the Emperor Over the Sea, etc? But at other times it seems like he's the embodiment of all of God. The three voices in the mist with Shasta being a clear Trinitarian echo, for instance. What I'm driving at is, did Aslan as Aslan create all the worlds, or was that God the Father/the Emperor's job? Is there a meaningful distinction??

That's one thing I've never been sure about either and I don't think there's any definitive answer, either within the Chronicles themselves or in anything else Lewis stated about them. We're told a number of times that Aslan is the Son of the Emperor beyond the Sea or the Emperor-Over-Sea, and that it was the Emperor's Deep Magic that was put into Narnia from the very beginning (that's in LWW). But Aslan is the only embodiment of deity that we ever actually meet in the books, and it's very definitely he who creates Narnia with no other "Persons" present or even implied, and heaven for the Narnians is "Aslan's country", not "the Emperor's country", let alone "the Emperor's, Aslan's and..." (we're never given any Narnian term for the Holy Spirit at all).

(None of these ambiguities in Narnian theology worry me personally — I'm a non-Trinitarian Christian myself — but I'd say they do underscore the fact that Lewis wasn't trying to set out any kind of exact theological / doctrinal statements in the Chronicles and they're not intended to be read in that way, let alone used as a sort of Sunday School teaching manual.)

Posted by: @silverlily

And I have a personal hypothesis based on the bit about Lilith in LWW, George McDonald's Lilith-version, and Jadis' thing about being about to tell on sight if magic was in someone's family, that perhaps part of the decline and fall of Charn was magically powerful world-walkers wandering in and setting themselves up as gods, then intermarrying with noble bloodlines.

Now THAT is a really intriguing speculation and one I certainly hadn't heard or thought of before, but it would account for at least some of the disparities between what we hear of the White Witch's ancestry in LWW and what we see of her as Jadis in MN. That's quite fascinating to think about — thanks, silverlily! And I should say welcome, too — I just checked and saw you're new here. Smile  

"Now you are a lioness," said Aslan. "And now all Narnia will be renewed."
(Prince Caspian)

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Posted : January 12, 2023 11:09 am
Silverlily
(@silverlily)
NarniaWeb Junkie

@courtenay My pleasure to provide food for thought. ^_^ I like fiddling with ideas about Narnia's worldbuilding in my head sometimes--even though I know the Doylist explanation is often just "Lewis didn't think it through that far."

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Posted : January 12, 2023 11:42 am
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coracle
(@coracle)
NarniaWeb's Auntie Moderator
Posted by: @silverlily

...Hm... I sort of wonder. It seems like it's implied at least in places that Aslan is specifically the Son aspect of the Trinity, rather than being all of God? Son of the Emperor Over the Sea, etc? But at other times it seems like he's the embodiment of all of God. The three voices in the mist with Shasta being a clear Trinitarian echo, for instance. What I'm driving at is, did Aslan as Aslan create all the worlds, or was that God the Father/the Emperor's job? Is there a meaningful distinction?

In Biblical terms, in our world, the Trinity is not three separate individuals. They were there from before they beginning, and a Hebrew scholar could point to the plurals in the creation accounts. 

There is no fully developed Trinity theology in Narnia - it's for children - but it's convenient to apply some of what we know in our world. 

The Bible describes the second person of the Trinity (the Son) being present at Creation, sometimes as Wisdom or Logos/Word.

In MN we read how Aslan sang the land of Narnia into being. We can't base Christian theology on these books, but many people start their understanding of various issues with them.  My own simple answer has to be that of there is one creator, he made all the worlds. 

There, shining in the sunrise, larger than they had seen him before, shaking his mane (for it had apparently grown again) stood Aslan himself.
"...when a willing victim who had committed no treachery was killed in a traitor's stead, the Table would crack and Death itself would start working backwards."

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Posted : January 12, 2023 11:45 am
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