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Calormenes smell of onions and garlic?

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Jasmine
(@jasmine_tarkheena)
NarniaWeb Guru

@rose Aravis probably would be annoyed, because she's a Tarkheena.  She does however say in the book-

"My name," said the girl at once, "is Aravis Tarkheena and I am the only daughter of Kidrash Tarkaan, the son of Rishti Tarkaan, the son of Kidrash Tarkaan, the son of Ilsombreh Tisroc, the son of Ardeeb Tisroc who was descended in a right line from the god Tash."

So she is kind of a princess. But she does end up with Shasta, whose actually Prince Cor of Archenland. (Shasta doesn't know that he's a prince, so it makes it a plot twist).

I think in the Calormene culture, "women are seen as property of their fathers and husbands". It would have explained why Edmund fears that Prince Rabadash would force Susan to marry him. He would actually treat her more like property than as a person.

Ahoshta could possibly do the same to Aravis. Ahoshta was of low-birth, but it was flattery that got him into the upper class society, eventually rising up to be grand vizier. It's hard to say what was going on in Aravis's head when Ahoshta was groveling and being kicked around in the Tisroc's courts. But she knew well how women in the upper class society were treated; I think that gave her a reason to runaway.

I wouldn't be surprised if Rishda in The Last Battle did the same for any woman he is after. I'm not saying that Rishda is a womanizer (I'm sure he'd be offended if I did Tongue ), but he could possibly treat women like property, as an upper-class Tarkaan has been known for doing.

"And this is the marvel of marvels, that he called me beloved."
(Emeth, The Last Battle)
https://escapetoreality.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/aslan-and-emeth2.jpg

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Topic starter Posted : October 27, 2021 3:52 pm
Jasmine
(@jasmine_tarkheena)
NarniaWeb Guru

In talking about Calormene culture, in the Russian translation, Calormen is known as "Tarkhinstan". It could be a reference to Tarkaan, a Calormene nobleman. I honestly don't know why they've use "Tarkaan" after the name instead of before the name.

Anyhow, it's no wonder that the upper class society tended to be self-indulgent people. And we see it in the Chronicles; Lasaraleen has an extravagant lifestyle. Not that she eats garlic and onion, but she tends to talk a lot about the latest party she been to and the newest dress she got. But she shows how much authority she has where she gives the threat to her servants and slaves-

"Here. All of you. And you, doorkeeper. No-one is to be let out of the house to-today. And anyone I catch talking about this young lady will be first beaten to death and then burned alive and after that be kept on bread and water for six weeks. There."

It's like, "How is that even possible to be beaten to death then burned alive then be kept on bread and water for six weeks." She may have been trying to come up with something impressive, or just showing how much authority she has.

Rishda is no different. While not a lot of details are let out (how he treated his slaves or other Calormene soldiers, being the captain and all), he still shows how much authority he has. There's a moment where he gives a threat to the Narnians-

"Hearken", he said. "If the Boar and the Dogs and the Unicorn will come over to me and put themselves in my mercy, their lives shall be spared. The Boar shall go to a cage in the Tisroc's garden, the Dogs to the Tisroc's kennels, and the Unicorn, when I have sawn his horn off, shall draw a cart. But the Eagle, the children, and he who was the King shall be offered to Tash this night."

You could argue, "No more Mr. Nice Guy" there, but Rishda wasn't a nice guy to begin with. He shows how much authority he has. Maybe that's what you get for not only being a Tarkaan but also a captain in the Calormene army.

 

"And this is the marvel of marvels, that he called me beloved."
(Emeth, The Last Battle)
https://escapetoreality.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/aslan-and-emeth2.jpg

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Topic starter Posted : January 30, 2022 4:41 pm
Col Klink
(@col-klink)
NarniaWeb Junkie

This is changing the subject somewhat, but I find it funny that C. S. Lewis thought the smell of garlic and onions would have negative connotations for readers since it makes me think of pizza. LOL  

For better or worse-for who knows what may unfold from a chrysalis?-hope was left behind.
-The God Beneath the Sea by Leon Garfield & Edward Blishen check out my new blog!

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Posted : July 8, 2022 2:37 pm
coracle and Courtenay liked
coracle
(@coracle)
NarniaWeb's Auntie Moderator

People from different ethnicities eat differently, wear different clothes (made from a variety of fabrics), and use a variety of perfumes or soaps. One ethnic group  will be noticed by people from another, not just by looks or accent, but by smell.

Europeans smell of meat to many Asians, and their shoe polish, hair products, and other things they use add to the food smell  

I've heard that some Asian people consider the European smell unpleasant, if not offensive  

 

There, shining in the sunrise, larger than they had seen him before, shaking his mane (for it had apparently grown again) stood Aslan himself.
"...when a willing victim who had committed no treachery was killed in a traitor's stead, the Table would crack and Death itself would start working backwards."

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Posted : July 8, 2022 9:52 pm
Gretel liked
Jasmine
(@jasmine_tarkheena)
NarniaWeb Guru

Imagine Tirian and Jewel's reaction when the Calormene soldiers were circling around them, "smelling of garlic and onion".

"And this is the marvel of marvels, that he called me beloved."
(Emeth, The Last Battle)
https://escapetoreality.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/aslan-and-emeth2.jpg

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Topic starter Posted : July 9, 2022 2:04 pm
Col Klink
(@col-klink)
NarniaWeb Junkie

I'm rereading The Horse and his Boy now and honestly, I don't feel like the passage is specifically referring to the people smelling like garlic and onions. It's describing an overcrowded marketplace where food is being sold. I imagine there'd be a lot of food smells in such a place.

Of course, anyone who's offended still has the right to be offended. Even if C. S. Lewis wasn't being snobby toward Calormenes, he was still being snobby toward peasants. ("Unwashed people, unwashed dogs, etc.") 

For better or worse-for who knows what may unfold from a chrysalis?-hope was left behind.
-The God Beneath the Sea by Leon Garfield & Edward Blishen check out my new blog!

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Posted : July 18, 2022 4:00 pm
Courtenay and coracle liked
waggawerewolf27
(@waggawerewolf27)
Member Hospitality Committee

No, I don't think C.S.Lewis was being particularly snobby to refer to Calormenes as smelling of onions & garlic. Or as unwashed hot people with unwashed dogs either.  Garlic is used in cooking internationally, whichever continent of the world you care to visit. Though I might wonder about how scientists manage cooking, living in Antarctica. To cook without onions is to remove not only a good flavour but also the nourishment. Onions are said to be good for colds, & can anyone tell me of any stew, soup, pasta sauce or casserole, that one cooks, especially in winter, that doesn't have onions or garlic or both in it, somewhere?  Even Sam in The Two Towers, moaned that he could have done with onions & "taters" to cook with his "coneys" - rabbits I presume - as well as the herbs they found to flavour Gollum's catch. 

It is a well-known fact that people who don't eat garlic, themselves, are the only ones who really notice any garlicky bodily odour, when other people do eat garlic. No wonder that garlic has been promoted in folklore for keeping vampires away. Wink   I am also aware that the sorts of meals I remember from my childhood & from British-style diets did not usually use garlic before C.S.Lewis' death. As a rule, up until the great post WW2 migrations, when garlic is especially useful in Italian & Asian cooking, and when we varied our diets more, whatever C.S.Lewis said about British cooking was true for Australian cooking as well. When for the most part Shasta appeared to live on fish, bread of some sort, maybe cheese, he might well notice the smell of onions or garlic lingering around crowds of other people. 

As a matter of interest, when UK & USA have been having such hot summer temperatures lately, when I was reading about drought in seven states of USA, with possible water rationing, unwashed hot people with unwashed, & just as hot dogs, (not  American "hot dogs" Shocked ), in a crowded market place, anywhere that is hot in the world, sounds only too likely. One of my least enjoyable memories was of being on an overcrowded, sardine-packed bus, coming home from swimming on a Botany Bay beach, during a heatwave, my face jammed in someone or other's garlic smelling armpit, to the point I ended up physically ill after my swim. Neither in 1963 nor until much later, in Australia, did we have air conditioning in those days, & I don't remember us having electric fans then either. I very much doubt that UK, currently in temperatures of upwards of 38C or worse, yesterday & today, would have had air conditioning to retreat behind, in days gone by, whilst such luxuries would be unknown, of course, in Calormen.  

By the way, Jasmine, I do agree that Rishda Tarkaan doesn't sound very nice at all, either to his soldiers, or to anyone else, either. 

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Posted : July 19, 2022 1:01 am
Gretel and Courtenay liked
Courtenay
(@courtenay)
NarniaWeb Fanatic Hospitality Committee
Posted by: @waggawerewolf27

I very much doubt that UK, currently in temperatures of upwards of 38C or worse, yesterday & today, would have had air conditioning to retreat behind, in days gone by, whilst such luxuries would be unknown, of course, in Calormen.  

No, most people don't have A/C here (although my workplace does, being a care home Thumbs up ). I'm getting by just fine, as I happen to have a flat that stays cool very well, and I'm currently on night shifts, which means I don't have to be outside in the heat. But I realise for a lot of British people, it's a bit of a shock to the system.

Getting back on topic, I must say garlic isn't that common in cookery here in Britain — at least, not in traditional dishes — but onions are, of course. Maybe the Calormenes just use both of them more often in their cooking than the Narnians do, and that's why the smell stands out to those who don't regularly eat those foods?

As for the Calormenes in the heat, I'm guessing the Tarkaans / Tarkheenas and other rich people had luxury pleasure gardens and fountains and swimming pools and so on, whereas the poorer people must have just had to cope as best they could. We get a pretty good sense of the class divide in Lewis's description of Tashbaan as Shasta and Aravis and the Horses enter the city — first they're in a crowded and obviously poorer part of the city, which is where we get the description of the smells of unwashed people and so on, but then they come out into much better off places with trees and gardens and fountains. It's probably not much different from how cities were, and in some cases still are, in hotter parts of our own world.

"Now you are a lioness," said Aslan. "And now all Narnia will be renewed."
(Prince Caspian)

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Posted : July 19, 2022 6:56 am
Jasmine
(@jasmine_tarkheena)
NarniaWeb Guru
Posted by: @waggawerewolf27   

By the way, Jasmine, I do agree that Rishda Tarkaan doesn't sound very nice at all, either to his soldiers, or to anyone else, either. 

Oh yes, and we don't even know how Rishda treated his wife (if he had one, assuming she was younger than he was, given that a Tarkaan was known to have a younger wife). Though it might be safe to say he treated her more like property, as Calormene Tarkaans were known to treat their wives and daughters like property.

Posted by: @courtenay

Maybe the Calormenes just use both of them more often in their cooking than the Narnians do, and that's why the smell stands out to those who don't regularly eat those foods?

I haven't thought of that. I've always had the impression that Calormenes ate onion and garlic more than the Narnians do.

 

"And this is the marvel of marvels, that he called me beloved."
(Emeth, The Last Battle)
https://escapetoreality.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/aslan-and-emeth2.jpg

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Topic starter Posted : July 19, 2022 7:40 am
Jasmine
(@jasmine_tarkheena)
NarniaWeb Guru

Though I do kind of wonder if a Tarkaan having a much younger wife was still a thing by the time The Last Battle takes place. That not it's important to the story or anything, but is it possible that the custom of an arranged marriage was still a thing between HHB and LB? Or could have the custom change by then?

"And this is the marvel of marvels, that he called me beloved."
(Emeth, The Last Battle)
https://escapetoreality.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/aslan-and-emeth2.jpg

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Topic starter Posted : March 31, 2023 12:46 pm
Varnafinde
(@varna)
Princess of the Noldor and Royal Overseer of the Talk About Narnia forum Moderator

There were probably about fifteen hundred years between the events of those books, so there would be room for quite a few cultural changes, also in marriage customs.

What direction those changes would take, is difficult to say, though. I guess it's possible that arranged marriages could stay even if the average age of the brides was raised by some years.


(avi artwork by Henning Janssen)

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Posted : April 3, 2023 2:52 am
Jasmine
(@jasmine_tarkheena)
NarniaWeb Guru
Posted by: @varna

There were probably about fifteen hundred years between the events of those books, so there would be room for quite a few cultural changes, also in marriage customs.

What direction those changes would take, is difficult to say, though. I guess it's possible that arranged marriages could stay even if the average age of the brides was raised by some years.

There are some things that is just left to your own imagination. Though I think slavery was still a thing, given that Shift was selling Narnians to slavery to Calormenes. So I guess some things haven't changed between those two books.

There's also a whole section in Roar: A Christian Family Guide To Narnia called "Color and Culture in Narnia." It's really well worth reading.

"And this is the marvel of marvels, that he called me beloved."
(Emeth, The Last Battle)
https://escapetoreality.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/aslan-and-emeth2.jpg

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Topic starter Posted : April 3, 2023 7:57 am
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