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Aslan's creation includes the whole world Narnia is in, yes?

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Tumnus
(@tumnus)
NarniaWeb Regular

Hello everyone,

As I've re-read the Chronicles, one question that occurs to me is when we read of the beginnings of Narnia in the Magician's Nephew whether that pertains to the country of Narnia only or to the entire world in which Narnia exists. Since the end of Caspian mentions Telmarines arriving in Telmar from Earth and the land having been unpeopled before then, I always assumed that Aslan created the whole world and that the different nationalities of humans all arrived through portals, though in the case of Telmar that is specifically spelled out but with Calormen it is not.

Pardon if this topic has been covered before, I've been a fan for three decades but am new to this site.

"Narnia, Narnia, Narnia,
Awake.

Love. Think. Speak.

Be Walking Trees

Be Talking Beasts

Be Divine Waters"
-The Magician's Nephew

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Topic starter Posted : January 15, 2020 12:10 am
Col Klink
(@col-klink)
NarniaWeb Junkie

When Digory and Polly are flying on Fledge, they see the country that they assume will become Archenland. So, yes, creating Narnia in this context clearly means creating the whole world.

For better or worse-for who knows what may unfold from a chrysalis?-hope was left behind.
-The God Beneath the Sea by Leon Garfield & Edward Blishen check out my new blog!

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Posted : January 15, 2020 2:23 am
Courtenay liked
KingEdTheJust
(@kingedthejust)
NarniaWeb Nut

Yes, I'm pretty sure it includes the whole world.  

Posted by: @tumnus

I always assumed that Aslan created the whole world and that the different nationalities of humans all arrived through portals, though in the case of Telmar that is specifically spelled out but with Calormen it is not.

If Narnia was born all of Aslan's country, how did it split into different countries and nationalities that Aslan himself did not lead?  Aslan created Narnia as the Whole World, not just the country, so how did Narnia 'shrink' to a single country?

 

 

"But even a traitor may mend. I have known one that did." - (King Edmund the Just, Horse and his Boy)

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Posted : June 21, 2021 5:20 pm
Col Klink
(@col-klink)
NarniaWeb Junkie
Posted by: @kingedthejust

If Narnia was born all of Aslan's country, how did it split into different countries and nationalities that Aslan himself did not lead? 

Well, technically, Aslan didn't "lead" the kingdom of Narnia itself. He left Frank and Helen to lead it in his absence. I assume that as time went on, Narnia became too small for Frank and Helen's descendants and possibly other creatures, so they moved and founded other countries.

For better or worse-for who knows what may unfold from a chrysalis?-hope was left behind.
-The God Beneath the Sea by Leon Garfield & Edward Blishen check out my new blog!

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Posted : June 21, 2021 6:18 pm
Narnian78
(@narnian78)
NarniaWeb Guru

I think we get the impression from reading the books that Narnia and Archenland are small countries in comparison to Calormen.  You wonder why Aslan created the world of Narnia that way. If Calormen was a large country why wasn’t there more artistic beauty and culture in it?  I suppose Calormen could have some beauty in its desert, but it is mostly not presented as being so attractive as Narnia or Archenland.  Tashbaan was just a capital city of brutality and not very pretty to look at.  It was not a place of beauty like Cair Paravel.  So why didn’t Lewis want Calormen to be attractive like Narnia— especially if it took up more space?

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Posted : June 22, 2021 4:11 pm
Col Klink
(@col-klink)
NarniaWeb Junkie
Posted by: @narnian78

So why didn’t Lewis want Calormen to be attractive like Narnia— especially if it took up more space?

This may be a boring answer but I imagine it was because they were bad guys. Giggle   Bad guys tend to be more fun when they're either really ugly or deceptively beautiful. Calormen culture was arguably intended to be a little of both. (The statues of their gods and heroes are described, if I remember correctly, as being more impressive than appealing.) You're right that it probably doesn't make sense from a realistic perspective. 

This post was modified 3 years ago by Col Klink

For better or worse-for who knows what may unfold from a chrysalis?-hope was left behind.
-The God Beneath the Sea by Leon Garfield & Edward Blishen check out my new blog!

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Posted : June 22, 2021 8:43 pm
SonofStone
(@sonofstone)
NarniaWeb Regular
Posted by: @narnian78

 So why didn’t Lewis want Calormen to be attractive like Narnia— especially if it took up more space?

      Because when writing a story, it is massively campy if all the countries are beautiful and good. In my opinion, if any country from Narnia were to "come alive" Colormen would probably be the most similar of them all to what it was based on, a North African/Middle Eastern country, brutal, dirty and mostly dirt poor.

      Now, pertaining to the actual question here, I think Aslan created all the land around Narnia, yet it was the first (and only) established nation/country. As for Archenland, we are told that some of King Frank's sons and grandsons went to the south to start a new nation (not in rebellion, but with Frank and Helen's blessing). Then we are told in the LB that Colormen was not populated by our world (like Telmar), but renegades from Archenland went south and became Colormen. Why they are bigger than either Narnia and Archenland, I don't know, but I do think that it is made clear in HHB that it is bigger.

Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong. Let all that you do be done in love.
1 Corinthians 16:13-14

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Posted : June 23, 2021 1:24 pm
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Narnian78
(@narnian78)
NarniaWeb Guru

@sonofstone

It almost seems that almost everything about Calormen and its inhabitants is evil except Emeth and perhaps Lazaraleen, who is just silly but not completely bad.  Could Calormen be somewhat of a stereotype in being a country of mostly villains?  I don’t like Calormen much either (especially Tashbaan), but I sometimes wonder if it is because something more positive should have been there. Maybe there should have been more good people living there. I have kind of a prejudiced view of it, but perhaps that is because the country and its inhabitants were created so that we have mostly a negative view of the place and its people. You just wonder why Aslan would create a whole country that is mostly not very attractive to look at and has just a small minority of virtuous inhabitants.

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Posted : June 23, 2021 1:48 pm
KingEdTheJust
(@kingedthejust)
NarniaWeb Nut
Posted by: @narnian78

Maybe there should have been more good people living there. I have kind of a prejudiced view of it, but perhaps that is because the country and its inhabitants were created so that we have mostly a negative view of the place and its people. You just wonder why Aslan would create a whole country that is mostly not very attractive to look at and has just a small minority of virtuous inhabitants.

I don't believe Calmoren is completely bad, just the good people living there are rarely mentioned. Many of the good people living in Calmoren would probably not have anything to do with Narnia or care.  Therefore probably all the good people or at least neutral would most likely not be mentioned. Except, of course, Aravis and Emith. 

 Calmoren is probably not very attractive because it is a big country, so there would be more to take care of and more to pay for. Also like you said, Calmoren is often portrayed as a bad country, where people are cruel. On the other hand, Narnia is the main country. It is small but still ruled and loved by its beloved kings and queens and basically what the whole series revolves around.  So most likely it would be more beautiful and more well-kept than Calmoren. 

"But even a traitor may mend. I have known one that did." - (King Edmund the Just, Horse and his Boy)

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Posted : June 23, 2021 3:08 pm
Cobalt Jade
(@cobalt-jade)
NarniaWeb Nut

This is why I like Narnia more than Middle Earth. So many unanswered questions and room for exploration! This is a point that has always confused me as well, Narnia-the-country vs. Narnia-the-world. When Aslan created the Talking Beasts and (presumably) the mythological creatures like fauns, centaurs, dryads, etc. did he really mean for them to live just in Narnia, or did he mean for them to populate the entire world? The non-sentient animals did, and so did some mythical creatures, like giants (there was a two-headed giant in Archenland, and giants beyond the border of Narnia's north) and dragons. But nothing is mentioned of Talking Beasts or mythic creatures in Telmar, Calormen, the Western Wild, or Ettinsmore and the North.

If I didn't know any better  Smile it seems like the unexpected arrival of humans and Jadis at Narnia's dawn put a serious hitch into his plans, and he had to improvise. Thus the idea of a human king and queen to protect Narnia along with the guardian apple tree.

In the beginning I think all of Narnia was virgin and beautiful because the hand of man was not on it.

 

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Posted : June 25, 2021 6:22 pm
KingEdTheJust
(@kingedthejust)
NarniaWeb Nut
Posted by: @cobalt-jade

it seems like the unexpected arrival of humans and Jadis at Narnia's dawn put a serious hitch into his plans, and he had to improvise. Thus the idea of a human king and queen to protect Narnia along with the guardian apple tree.

I'm pretty sure Aslan did mean like you said for Narnia to be something different. A land of pure and happy creatures and probably humans were not involved. Yet this quote from Magician's Nephew says: 

"You see, friends," he said, "that before the new, clean world I gave you is seven hours old, a force of evil has already entered it; waked and brought hither by this son of Adam." The Beasts, even Strawberry,
all turned their eyes on Digory till he felt that he wished the ground would swallow him up. "But do not be cast down," said Aslan, still speaking to the Beasts. "Evil will come of that evil, but it is still a long
way off, and I will see to it that the worst falls upon myself. In the meantime, let us take such order that for many hundred years yet this shall be a merry land in a merry world. And as Adam's race has done
the harm, Adam's race shall help to heal it." - Magician's Nephew 

I feel that Aslan though he hoped, he knew that eventually an evil will come into Narnia. He probably would've wanted Narnia as one whole world united together, But he knew that he couldn't stop evil from coming to ruin the good. With that said, it is also that humans brought trouble and harm to Narnia and they themselves shall have to fix it.  That brought the cause of Helen and Frank, as the first kings and queens in Narnia, Digory having to get the silver apple and years later, the Pevensies coming to save Narnia from the White Witch. 

 

"But even a traitor may mend. I have known one that did." - (King Edmund the Just, Horse and his Boy)

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Posted : June 25, 2021 8:23 pm
Narnian78
(@narnian78)
NarniaWeb Guru

I wonder what would happen if a Lion would have created middle earth. I guess Tolkien didn’t like talking animals as much as Lewis. So we have both worlds created by the same God, but he is not in the same form. He did it with our world too, but he doesn’t appear very often there as a Lion. If Aslan’s creation includes the whole world why did he usually appear in just one form in Narnia but he did not appear in that form in other worlds such as ours?

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Posted : June 29, 2021 2:19 pm
Col Klink
(@col-klink)
NarniaWeb Junkie
Posted by: @sonofstone

In my opinion, if any country from Narnia were to "come alive" Colormen would probably be the most similar of them all to what it was based on, a North African/Middle Eastern country, brutal, dirty and mostly dirt poor.

I never got the impression that Calormen was "dirt poor." I mean some characters were like Arsheesh but there were others who were rich like Anradin and Aravis's family. The Horse and his Boy says that the Tisroc's least jewel was worth more than the all the Narnian lords' clothes and weapons.

But I realize you said, "mostly." Maybe if you added up all the people who live in Calormen, the poor would vastly outnumber the wealthy. It depends on how you define a country being "mostly poor."

For better or worse-for who knows what may unfold from a chrysalis?-hope was left behind.
-The God Beneath the Sea by Leon Garfield & Edward Blishen check out my new blog!

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Posted : June 27, 2022 11:48 pm
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Courtenay
(@courtenay)
NarniaWeb Fanatic Hospitality Committee

Very interesting topic, this — I've just been enjoying reading the discussion! Mind you, I think to some extent it's another of those things that Lewis probably never thought out in really great detail; he was writing stories for children and he definitely never attempted anything like a Tolkienesque level of world-building!!

Posted by: @tumnus

I always assumed that Aslan created the whole world and that the different nationalities of humans all arrived through portals, though in the case of Telmar that is specifically spelled out but with Calormen it is not.

Lewis doesn't say anything (as far as I remember) in the books themselves about where the Calormenes came from. However, in the Narnian timeline that he wrote some time after completing the series, we're told that in the year 204 (after the creation of Narnia), "Certain outlaws from Archenland fly across the Southern Desert and set up the new kingdom of Calormen." So the Calormenes apparently came from the same human stock as the Narnians and Archenlanders originally.

I do wonder, mind you, if other humans from our world got into Narnia (presumably also through those "chinks and chasms" that Aslan speaks of in Prince Caspian) after the time of Frank and Helen and their immediate descendants. Frank and Helen's children married nymphs and wood-gods and river-gods, we're told in The Magician's Nephew, but if that continued to happen with subsequent generations, within a few more decades there'd be virtually no human blood left in the original Narnian royal family (some descendants of which became the Archenland royal family). Not to mention, where did all the various other humans in Narnia and the surrounding countries descend from? To me, the only logical answer is that there must have been several more introductions of humans to the Narnian world at different times that simply weren't recorded in the history that we know of through Lewis. As we already know that could happen, it makes sense.

Posted by: @kingedthejust

If Narnia was born all of Aslan's country, how did it split into different countries and nationalities that Aslan himself did not lead?  Aslan created Narnia as the Whole World, not just the country, so how did Narnia 'shrink' to a single country?

I reckon we could easily ask the same question about our own world — if one God created it all in the beginning, how did it split into different countries and nationalities, not all of which worship the same deity? (There are, of course, various answers to that, depending on one's own beliefs or philosophies; I'm not going to try answering it myself, just throwing it out there! Giggle )

Aslan, as far as we see in the books, doesn't leave his creation entirely to its own devices, but he doesn't seem to "micro-manage" it either. I don't know exactly where Lewis stood on the whole question of "everything that happens is God's will" vs "humans have free will" — that's an endless theological debate!! — but it DOES come across as though, as @cobalt-jade suggests, the arrival of Jadis and humans "put a serious hitch into [Aslan's] plans and he had to improvise". The introduction of evil into Narnia doesn't seem to have been part of Aslan's original plans or intentions, but it happens, and while it doesn't stop Aslan from being the ultimate ruler, it does mean there's the potential for current and future inhabitants of that world to disobey and reject him.

As for the Calormen question, I don't get the impression at all that it's a country with no artistic beauty or that most people there were "dirt poor". We don't get an elaborate picture of it, but we learn enough in The Horse and His Boy to see that there's a huge variety of people even just in the city of Tashbaan. When Shasta and his friends enter the city gates, they find Tashbaan "did not at first seem so splendid as it had looked from a distance" — they start out in a narrow street of the lower town, with huge crowds of people, many of them "unwashed" and with "piles of refuse" everywhere, but they soon come to "fresher and pleasanter" areas and "finer streets" with "palm trees and pillared arcades", "green branches, cool fountains, and smooth lawns". Like any city in our world, there are nice and not-so-nice parts, rich people and poor people and everything in between.

And there are all the mentions of Tarkaans and Tarkheenas and their lavish houses and palaces and gardens — even Aravis, in her early conversation with Bree, gushes over the lake of Mezreel, which is where she knows Lasaraleen from originally: "What a delightful place it is. Those gardens, and the Valley of the Thousand Perfumes!" So clearly there ARE plenty of beautiful places within Calormen, even if it's mainly the upper classes who get to enjoy them, in contrast to those living in poverty or outright slavery. Again, not unlike a fair few societies in our own world!

The overriding impression I always get is that Calormen isn't inherently evil, but — perhaps because it was originally founded by "outlaws" who, we might speculate, rejected Aslan as their supreme ruler / deity — it's a very materialistic society, and also a very hierarchical one. (Lewis sums up Tashbaan's one traffic regulation as "everyone who is less important has to get out of the way for everyone who is more important", which seems implicitly to apply to everything else in Calormene society as well.) It's a great and obviously intentional contrast with Narnia's simplicity and unpretentiousness and relative lack of "development", which is much more true to Aslan's original intentions and which in turn apparently makes Narnia much more receptive, so to speak, to Aslan's influence.

So did Aslan plan for there to be another country within his created world that went in a completely different direction from his original land of Narnia, one whose people became worshippers of other gods and enemies of the Narnians? There's that question again that I'm not sure we can ever answer conclusively. But as others have already mentioned, for the purposes of a decent story, you need bad guys as well as good guys, so... Grin  

However, as we also see, Calormenes, like all humans, are inherently capable of good as well as of evil — and Aslan IS still truly their creator and supreme ruler despite most of them not knowing him. Emeth is deeply drawn to goodness and righteousness and truth (his name is actually the Hebrew word for "truth"!); even though he believes he's spent his life seeking for and serving Tash, he discovers after death that he was actually serving Aslan all along, and he instinctively recognises Aslan as the true deity when he meets him face to face.

And let's not forget Aravis, who grows up in the Calormene aristocracy, but unlike Lasaraleen, rejects her life of privilege and material comforts — and the gilded cage of an arranged marriage — in order to seek real freedom. We don't see much interaction between her and Aslan, unfortunately; their only conversation in the book is when he explains why he scratched her back and what she needed to learn from it, which is a rather sombre moment. But he addresses her as "Aravis my daughter" and "my dear" — which proves that despite her upbringing and her personal mistakes, Aslan sees her as innately on his side, before she even fully understands who he is and before she has any idea that she will one day be Queen of Archenland! So, going by those examples, I would guess there must surely have been other Calormenes we don't know about, down the ages, who also found their way to Aslan's country in the end.

"Now you are a lioness," said Aslan. "And now all Narnia will be renewed."
(Prince Caspian)

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Posted : June 28, 2022 1:40 pm
Narnian78
(@narnian78)
NarniaWeb Guru

I often wondered why there wasn’t much said about Archenland. It was presented by Lewis as a very good country with some excellent kings, but there isn’t much else said about it. It plays a small part as a setting for the books and like Narnia is threatened by the Tisroc in Calormen, but we know very little about its history.  Maybe Lewis didn’t want to create a duplicate of Narnia, although Archenland is much like it and Lewis described it as being a very pleasant land. Other than the stories about King Lune and Prince Cor (Shasta) and Corin there isn’t a whole lot else that we are told about Archenland.  I guess the country was just a friendly land on the border of Narnia.

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Posted : July 4, 2022 3:59 am
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