Whilst I know the presence of Father Christmas is something that Tolkien is said to have objected to at the time, I think at least some part of why it's perceived as being a jarring moment for modern readers can be explained by the way that the "Father Christmas" iconography has developed over the latter half of the 20th Century since LWW was published.

And to that extent it's worth noting that when it comes to physical personifications of the Christmas holiday, the English folklore of "Father Christmas" is technically different to the more recent tradition of St Nicolas / Santa Claus - even if both characters serve similar functions (i.e. to be a physical manifestation of the Christmas holiday)

Therefore once you start to look at his presence through the lense of English folklore, the inclusion of Father Christmas is perhaps no more unusual than the presence of other characters from Pagan, Roman, Norse and Ancient Greek Mythologies.

In fact, Father Christmas is not even alone in terms of being a physical personification of an abstract concept, because Father Time also appears in the Silver Chair & The Last Battle.

Hi @AtlantisBox, welcome to the forum! I think I fixed what was wrong with the blockquote; for some reason the strikethrough was stubborn to get rid of.

Posted by: @atlantisbox

Could Father Christmas be a star? Like Coriakin? Like Ramandu? Could we even suppose he was the "Star of Bethlehem"

I love this idea! I don't think I've ever seen anyone suggest it before.

I think for me, growing up in America, the presence of Father Christmas didn't strike me as overly strange because he already seemed like something different than the highly commercialized Santa Claus I was familiar with. Looking back, I'd also been exposed to the concept of Father Christmas enough (in storybooks and film adaptations) to see the two as different, too. I think I associate CoN's Father Christmas with the Ghost of Christmas Present more than Santa Claus, to be honest. And I've never once thought about Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer existing in Narnia, but he's an inseparable character from modern-day American "folklore" about Christmas.

@atlantisbox You should check out "Into the Wardrobe" on Youtube. One of the insights he gives is about Father Christmas. There is one possibility that he is able to travel to other worlds through the Woods Between the Worlds. He may have been in Archenland and Calormen, since they didn't suffer the eternal winter during the reign of the White Witch. He may have been in other worlds as well.

Where do the books say he exists in our world too? I thought they just said there are pictures of him in our world, and not always accurate pictures at that. 

Posted by: @atlantisbox

(even though the legend of Father Christmas and the story of Jesus Christ are sometimes seen as being at odds)????

I don't actually know much about the legends of Father Christmas. I'd be happy to have you enlighten me. But I don't think it's a huge inconsistency if they contradict the story of Jesus Christ. Narnia includes classical Roman gods, which could also be seen as contradictory to Christianity, a monotheistic faith. (On the old old forum-not the old one, the old old one-a Narniawebber called The Black Glove stated that this reflected C. S. Lewis's medieval worldview. The medieval Church believed that the classical gods were...well, I don't really remember, not being that interested in medievalism.) 

Posted by: @atlantisbox

However, his mere presence in the story at all, considering the fantastic circumstances, is still a bit of a silly thing. In my humble opinion, at least.

Would you say that the Christmas holiday itself existing in Narnia is silly? It's OK if you do. Go ahead and say it. I just find it odd that people are surprised by a fantasy character connected to Christmas appearing in a story about a fantasy world where it's established that Christmas exists in the second chapter. I mean, once you've established that, why not have a cameo from Father Christmas?

@rose Thank you for the warm welcome and the assistance with the strikethrough!

Posted by: @rose

I think for me, growing up in America, the presence of Father Christmas didn't strike me as overly strange because he already seemed like something different than the highly commercialized Santa Claus I was familiar with. Looking back, I'd also been exposed to the concept of Father Christmas enough (in storybooks and film adaptations) to see the two as different, too.

Yes, I also feel a difference between the familiar American-styled Santa Claus and the, mm, 'British version', Father Christmas. I think it's obvious Lewis had the same sort of distinction in mind! Actually, I think a better way to label the two parallel figures would be as "The Commercialized" and "The Traditional". 

Posted by: @col-klink

I don't actually know much about the legends of Father Christmas. I'd be happy to have you enlighten me. But I don't think it's a huge inconsistency if they contradict the story of Jesus Christ. Narnia includes classical Roman gods, which could also be seen as contradictory to Christianity, a monotheistic faith. (On the old old forum-not the old one, the old old one-a Narniawebber called The Black Glove stated that this reflected C. S. Lewis's medieval worldview. The medieval Church believed that the classical gods were...well, I don't really remember, not being that interested in medievalism.) 

I readily admit, I'm not much of an expert on those legends. My main point in the original post, though, was along these lines of thinking:

- Based on the distinction noted by @rose and @icarus, I think it's safe to say Lewis' Father Christmas in LWW is "The Traditional". This means he is the representation behind which stands centuries of folklore and myth and such, and not simply a "transfer" (used in the literary sense, meaning taking the credibility of a person or icon or symbol and attributing it to something else that is in connection to them) in the American world of advertising.

- Based on the that premise, this is the Father Christmas that is essentially in the same boat of mythology (despite the possibly-true old story of St. Nicholas, which of course contributed to the Santa Claus mythos whether it is true or not) as the Roman, Norse, Ancient Greek, and other 'classical gods'. Clearly, all of them were included in the CoN at some point, and all of them regardless of their, shall we say, previous affiliations? Their ties to paganism, I mean. (That is what I meant by my statement about Santa Claus and the story of Jesus being at odds. It's entirely possible to see one as merely contradicting to the other, but that means you are accepting both as true and trying to reconcile their differences. That can get a bit messy. What's more common is that one story is taken as a replacement for the other. Generally speaking, [Generally!] if you're a Christian your main belief about Christmas and your main focus is about the birth of Jesus Christ. If you're not a Christian, you're typically focusing on the Santa aspect of it. It's subtle, but there's still something of an ideological clash. I hope that's a fair assessment?)

- Characters like Bacchus and Silenus and the water god from PC, despite their classical/medieval/pagan ties, are not only included in the series of books written by a monotheistic Christian, but they all have something astonishing in common. They all adhere to Aslan. These ancient figures from a medieval worldview brought to life in Narnia don't seem to notice their own origins! Hang it all, I'll say it straight up: They're monotheists. They're polytheist figures with a monotheistic worldview! The irony... (Actually, it seems like everyone in Narnia is a monotheist or atheist, with the exception of Calormene because along with Tash, HHB mentions a moon goddess) The parade of mythology only comes when Aslan returns to defeat the Telmarines. The water god begs for release from Aslan. Father Time is only woken up in the last days by Aslan. Who does Father Christmas gladly note is on the move and wish long life to after presenting Peter with a shield bearing the device of a red lion? The "true King", Aslan.

- It seems, then, that Lewis, the medieval Oxford scholar, had no trouble challenging the traditional views of such figures, and found each one a way to conform to the story he was telling, even if that did fudge the lines a little between what the church held as reality and what the rest of the world held as reality. He put a Narnian spin on it all, making connections between our world and Narnia that were unique and at least most of the time didn't just take a story from our world and throw it carelessly in, hoping it would make sense or go unnoticed. There's always exceptions, though. For these reasons, I believe it isn't really important to know all the history and legend of Father Christmas. It'd be helpful, and I don't discourage learning it at all! But what I mean is, Narnia doesn't fit into a box. A wardrobe, to be sure, but not a box. Every book by Lewis after LWW expanded the perimeters and widened the characters and the story as a whole. There are established facts and rules in the world of Narnia, but of course there's no bounds set in stone for the ways that this fantasy world relates to what is considered to be reality in our world. Just because the famous sleigh is pulled in front by a red-nosed reindeer doesn't necessarily mean it's the same in Narnia. (And also, I grant, authors don't always think of every single little detail when they're writing, especially under this sort of circumstance where you're trying to mesh what's legend in our world with what's reality in another world)

- In conclusion, I'm not trying to make this like the "Captain Rex was in RotJ before anyone knew he'd be in TCW" debate 😂 but I think there is some validity to believing that the complexity of our minds means we can sometimes allow for 'accidental intentionals'. You look at the symptoms before you diagnose the ailment. Father Christmas was given certain attributes, and I believe that it isn't too far-fetched to see those attributes as checking a lot of other boxes now that we have VDT and the knowledge (knowledge that we only found out about the same time as Lewis, really) that there are stars in human form in Narnia. I traced the maze backwards, if you will.

Posted by: @col-klink

Where do the books say he exists in our world too? I thought they just said there are pictures of him in our world, and not always accurate pictures at that. 

Very fair point! You're right, perhaps it was wrong for me to say that he 'exists' in our world too. The other creatures of Narnia like fauns and satyrs and centaurs are described in that same way, that there are pictures of them in our world which are found in old paintings and drawings and story books and things, but of course I don't think it's ever implied in the books that people in our world have really seen them. It is simply in that way that I mean he 'exists' in our world, in the sense that we have stories of him and see images of him like we do with those other creatures and even the classical gods. We have the idea of him, at least, and the pretense that he 'might' exist for real, or have existed like unicorns and dragons and such.

Posted by: @col-klink

Would you say that the Christmas holiday itself existing in Narnia is silly? It's OK if you do. Go ahead and say it. I just find it odd that people are surprised by a fantasy character connected to Christmas appearing in a story about a fantasy world where it's established that Christmas exists in the second chapter. I mean, once you've established that, why not have a cameo from Father Christmas?

To be honest, yes, I do think to begin with that that's a fairly silly thing. Thank you for allowing me room to say it though, really! That is another very very fair point, and I don't disagree that the cameo from Father Christmas at that point after what has been established is very fitting and logical enough to please Professor Kirke himself. My reasoning is this: the entirety of LWW, especially compared to every CoN book after it, is a very bumpy road in terms of consistency. The most relevant example that I can give is one of the first mentions of Christmas in the book:

“The White Witch? Who is she?”
“Why, it is she that has got all Narnia under her thumb. It’s she that
makes it always winter. Always winter and never Christmas; think of
that!”
“How awful!” said Lucy. “But what does she pay you for?”

What's striking is that a few pages earlier, Mr. Tumnus and Lucy are in a game of back-and-forth where one is in total confusion about what the other is saying in reference to their own world. The same thing happens with the children and the beavers later on, when Mr. Beaver is always nodding his head and saying everything with an expectance that these kids who've never been in Narnia before must understand it all completely. It's a very comical element, and can be much appreciated, but it also has the tendency to break down throughout the book, like here in the example I gave. Lucy has no idea who the White Witch is, the distressed Tumnus is explaining to her, and it's completely missed that they just found a commonality between their two worlds, that they both celebrate Christmas and know what it is and when it's commonly celebrated! (And there's a lot of base theological differences between Narnians and humans, too, beyond the confusion of why they know Adam and Eve and the fact that Jesus Christ's birth did not happen in Narnia or have any effect on it unless their holiday celebrates the day Aslan came down as a little lion cub or something...) Lewis probably didn't include any comment about this slip-up for the sake of normalcy, but all the same, it's a bit of a slip-up in consistency. That's really the only problem I have with Christmas existing in Narnia, and though it's a small thing I think it's important, and it does somewhat weaken the connections made later on to Father Christmas himself, like why he's had to struggle so long to ride a sleigh into Narnia under the nose of the poorly under-staffed and ill-coordinated (aside from an outright war mustering) witch's army and secret police to bring a loosely-relatable holiday to the citizens of wintery Narnia, and also where he was before the 100-year reign of Jadis.

Posted by: @jasminetarkheena

@atlantisbox You should check out "Into the Wardrobe" on Youtube

I have!!! The channel is amazing so far and I'm looking forward to seeing it grow! The theories he's put together in that video are very intriguing indeed... Thanks for sharing that!

@atlantisbox Yes, and some are thought provoking. I also have a thread about "Narnia Conspiracy Theory" if you want to check it out. (here's a link: https://community.narniaweb.com/index.php/community/postid/333320/). I actually got the inspiration from that channel. And I think it will grow as well. I think he's already got a lot of subscribers, and he's planning to do a "Into the Wardrobe Live".

In talking about Father Christmas, possibly in Archenland, Calormen, and even Telmar, he goes by other names. Father Christmas is a name in the UK for Santa Claus in the US, and he goes by other names in other countries.

Posted by: @icarus

Whilst I know the presence of Father Christmas is something that Tolkien is said to have objected to at the time,

Not only Tolkien. Even Lewis' friend and biographer Roger Lancelyn Green, who was the first to encourage Lewis about LWW (he felt he was hearing the first reading of what would be a new classic), wasn't very happy about Father Christmas being in the book. He objected less and less to his presence over the years, though, he says in the biography.

Posted by: @rose

Looking back, I'd also been exposed to the concept of Father Christmas enough (in storybooks and film adaptations) to see the two as different, too. I think I associate CoN's Father Christmas with the Ghost of Christmas Present more than Santa Claus, to be honest. 

This is actually how I perceived it.  I received a book as a child that was about Christmas traditions around the world.  I loved the pictures of Father Christmas.  They reminded me of the pictures I'd seen of the Ghost of Christmas present.  

@atlantisbox 

For what it's worth though, regardless of whether he makes sense or not from a conceptual point of view, I actually think giving Father Christmas more of a "backstory" is a really interesting idea.

Christmas or no Christmas, he does somewhat just pop into and then out of the narrative somewhat, and so there is definitely scope to expand upon his intervention in the story.

I think making him the Star of Bethlehem might be a bit too "on the nose" as far as metaphors go, but otherwise it's not a bad shout.

If Netflix did want to try and expand the mythology and add in some additional world building to connect through all the books, then perhaps they could find a way to to explain all the random characters who just pop up from time to time (such as Bacchus) as being part of some sort of in-universe concept - like an elder council of folklore myths

Posted by: @atlantisbox

- Based on the that premise, this is the Father Christmas that is essentially in the same boat of mythology (despite the possibly-true old story of St. Nicholas, which of course contributed to the Santa Claus mythos whether it is true or not) as the Roman, Norse, Ancient Greek, and other 'classical gods'. Clearly, all of them were included in the CoN at some point, and all of them regardless of their, shall we say, previous affiliations? Their ties to paganism, I mean. (That is what I meant by my statement about Santa Claus and the story of Jesus being at odds. It's entirely possible to see one as merely contradicting to the other, but that means you are accepting both as true and trying to reconcile their differences. That can get a bit messy. What's more common is that one story is taken as a replacement for the other. Generally speaking, [Generally!] if you're a Christian your main belief about Christmas and your main focus is about the birth of Jesus Christ. If you're not a Christian, you're typically focusing on the Santa aspect of it. It's subtle, but there's still something of an ideological clash. I hope that's a fair assessment?)

- Characters like Bacchus and Silenus and the water god from PC, despite their classical/medieval/pagan ties, are not only included in the series of books written by a monotheistic Christian, but they all have something astonishing in common. They all adhere to Aslan. These ancient figures from a medieval worldview brought to life in Narnia don't seem to notice their own origins!

I don't have any C.S. Lewis biographies on hand at the moment, or I might be able to find direct quotes from Lewis himself on this question — why did he, as a Christian writer, have no problem with introducing figures from non-Christian mythology into Narnia? As far as I understand it, it comes down to the fact that he, from early childhood, was deeply touched and moved by pagan mythologies, particularly Norse and Greek. (One of his first experiences of what he called "Joy" — an intense longing for something beyond what this world can give — was when he, as a young boy, read a line from one of the Norse myths: "Baldur the beautiful is dead, is dead.")

When he met J.R.R. Tolkien in Oxford, the two of them bonded over their shared love of Norse myths — and a few years later, it was Tolkien who basically opened the way for Lewis's conversion to Christianity. He introduced Lewis to the idea that the pagan myths that Lewis loved could be seen as echoes or foreshadowings of the "true myth" that was made manifest in the incarnation and life and death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. So those mythical characters, although fictional, were signs of humanity's reaching out towards the divine and catching glimpses of ultimate truth. That's not exactly how Lewis put it when he explained it — as I said, I don't have any sources of direct quotes here — but that's essentially what he was getting at.

So I assume that's why Lewis felt perfectly comfortable populating Narnia with characters from pagan mythologies, because of how those mythologies had touched him in his youth and given him glimpses of what turned out to be something much higher. In Narnia, as you point out, they're all subservient to Aslan — and indeed, in Prince Caspian, Susan and Lucy acknowledge that they wouldn't feel safe meeting "Bacchus and all his wild girls" if they didn't have Aslan with them. With Aslan as master of ceremonies, so to speak, the pagan deities and other characters are able to spread wild joy and merriment without anyone being harmed, precisely because Christ is in charge and they can only act according to his will, not according to worldly or self-centred desires. I've always found that idea deeply moving and helpful in my own faith-journey.

As for Father Christmas / Santa Claus, to my knowledge he's a mixture of pre-Christian legendary figures (the Frost King or Father Frost are names I've heard) and the legends of St Nicholas. I've never really stopped to speculate what his "backstory" might be in Narnia, but it's interesting to think about! I don't think I seriously questioned his presence in the story when I first read it (or when Mum first read it to me, rather — I was a bit under 5 at the time!!), although it is a little odd. As others here have pointed out, it doesn't quite make sense to think of Narnians celebrating Christmas in the same way we do, when they don't have the equivalent of the Nativity story (we're never told that Aslan was born as a lion cub somewhere in the Narnian world; he always appears as a fully grown lion, including when he actually creates Narnia in MN!). Why do they even call it Christmas when they don't use the term "Christ" to describe their world's divine saviour??

I can only conclude those are things Lewis didn't really think about when he wrote the story and so he never went into all the potential inconsistencies and questions — he just wrote it how he wanted it, so I pretty much accept it as that. I often wonder what he would have changed if he'd lived to do the revised editions of the Chronicles that he hinted he'd like to do in an interview with Kaye Webb, the editor of Puffin Books (who published the first paperback editions some years later) — would Father Christmas's scene have been changed at all, or even removed entirely? Unfortunately I gather he made that statement only days before he died, so we'll never know!!

@courtenay I know people want to get politically correct and say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" (I think it actually covers all Holidays that are celebrated in December: Christmas, Hanukkah, though at times it does start late November, Kwanzaa, New Year's Eve). I know that in Australia, they have Christmas in the summer (I know because I actually have close friends who are from Australia).

I think it also makes you wonder what Christmas traditions Archenland and Calormen have, because I think the Narnian Christmas tradition is similar to English.

Posted by: @jasminetarkheena

I know that in Australia, they have Christmas in the summer (I know because I actually have close friends who are from Australia).

Er, yes, I know that too, having lived the first three decades of my life in Australia!!! And Christmas is in summer in every other country in the southern hemisphere that celebrates it, which is probably most of them...

Funnily enough, even as a 4 1/2 year old who had never seen a winter Christmas (or even snow, for that matter) in her life, I always instinctively understood what Mr Tumnus meant by it being "always winter and never Christmas" in Narnia. A perpetual winter with no relief, no happiness, no celebration to remind people that winter won't last forever. It's a very evocative line, even when you come from the side of the world it doesn't fit, or so I found!

I'm now remembering a commentator — I think it may have been Devin Brown — pointing out that when Lewis wrote that marvellous line, he pretty much painted himself into a corner, because now that he'd indicated that Narnians know what Christmas is and the White Witch's winter prevents it from coming, he had to make Christmas come to Narnia in order to show that the Witch's power is weakening. And how else could he do that, really, but with the obvious figure from our own world's Christmas mythology?

(I should add that even in Australia — and I daresay in other southern countries as well — we see a plethora of cards and Christmas decorations and so on with a winter theme, even though it's summer in late December for us. Which is probably why I knew already, even at a young age, that Christmas is in winter over the other side of the world. The stupidest example of wrong-hemisphere Christmas decorations I've ever seen, incidentally, was the giant Christmas tree one year in King George Square in Brisbane, covered all over with huge snowflake shapes. Brisbane is in the sub-tropics. But I digress... )

Father Christmas is a European traditional figure, who came from earlier personifications of the Yuletide (Midwinter) festivities. The Romans observed Saturnalia, a feast day honouring the god Saturn. The Norse god Odin seems to have been very like our Father Christmas, and travelled through the world bringing gifts or punishment. He wore a blue-hooded cloak and had a long white beard.

He was not called Father Christmas for many years.

The Santa Claus figure who is now heavily overlain with Hollywood and storybook additions, is easier to trace, from the actual 4th century bishop who brought gifts, according to legend about him, and was taken with Dutch immigrants across to USA (you can find this easily online).

@coracle I think the Russians have a gift bearer called "Ded Moroz", and he wears a blue robe and hooded cloak as well. And I think the Ghost of Christmas Present from Charles Dickens A Christmas Carol has an resemblance to Father Christmas.

The Walden adaptation of The Lion, The Witch, And Wardrobe portrayed Father Christmas as a Norse warrior, similar to Odin. It was because Andrew Adamson didn't want the cliche Jolly Old St Nicholas look.