Great thread! There is a lot to say about Aravis, and the way she changes over the novel.

When Shasta and Bree are forced to join Aravis and Hwin, she is escaping an arranged marriage, with Hwin's help. I expect that Aravis must have treated Hwin well, and with genuine affection for Hwin to be instrumental in saving her life. But I am also aware that a good equestrian bonds with his/her horse, anyway, even if it isn't a talking horse. There are books about horse ESP. Plus car stickers saying that poverty is owning a horse As Bree said, a warhorse is expensive, and a mare would also be a costly item in a family's budget.

But when Aravis first appears, she seems too proud and haughty to Shasta, in particular, that is to say on first impressions. She obviously doesn't have much of an opinion of Ahoshta, the man she is expected to marry, and that is understandable if he is physically unattractive, especially when there is such a huge age gap. But is her opinion of this bloke really warranted, and why? Does anyone think Aravis really meant it when she told Hwin, Shasta and Bree that she would prefer to marry her father's scullion than Ahoshta?

For all she knows at this stage, Shasta has base birth, also her father's scullion. It says much for Ahoshta that he could get so wealthy and powerful in Calormene society despite his 'base birth'. It would have been a good marriage from the point of view of Aravis' father and stepmother, anyway, whatever the family dynamics.

Of course Aravis is really too young to get married, but that is the Calormene custom, and her classmate, Lazaraleen doesn't seem to mind it all that much. In fact Lazaraleen thinks that Aravis is decidedly odd. What do you think of Lazaraleen's lifestyle, and what do you think is missing from it? Do you think that Aravis made the right choice?

At first Aravis thinks nothing of her drugged maid being whipped, and, to be fair to Aravis, Lazaraleen's attitude to her own servants is hardly any better. What changed Aravis' mind most? Was it the slave clothes that first Shasta then Lazaraleen organised for her? Was it Aslan's lashing her back to make her understand how her slave felt? Or, was it really only because Shasta went back to help her? Or could it be that all three factors played their part in changing Aravis's attitude?

I can imagine that when her marriage to Ahoshta was arranged, Aravis had never even seen him and was basing her opinion of him on what she'd heard on the grapevine. Him being of "base birth" was probably enough to turn her off him. But it's interesting that although she believed he had achieved his position as a Tarkaan through "flattery and evil counsels", she didn't make the connection that the Tisroc approved of this until she overheard the secret council between the Tisroc, Rabadash and Ahoshta. Up till that point, she still would interject "May he live for ever" whenever she said the word "Tisroc". But afterwards, she calls him "that horrible Tisroc" - no "May he live for ever" any more.

So I think her attitude generally was dictated by the very rigid class structure in Calormen, and she can hardly be blamed for this as she didn't know any different. Slaves and people like Ahoshta and Shasta (so she thought) were way below her, the Tisroc was above her and worthy of reverence, until she sees with her own eyes what an evil man he was. It was a massive mental leap for her to accept that not just Shasta, but Bree and Hwin (as free Narnian citizens) were her equals. Bree had to rebuke her for insisting that Hwin was her horse, saying that one could just as well say that she was Hwin's human.

I think when she said (to Lasaraleen) that she'd rather marry her father's scullion than Ahoshta, I think she was just trying to shock Lasaraleen into accepting what an awful man Ahoshta was. Lasaraleen appeared to be blind to it - she still called him a "great man", even after witnessing the secret council, just because he had the privilege of being able to speak to the Tisroc face to face. I think Lasaraleen was one of those people who only saw and heard what she wanted to see and hear, and anything that disturbed her equilibrium she blocked out - a bit like the Dwarfs in the Stable in The Last Battle. But to be fair to her, she had been thrown into the situation because of Aravis - it wasn't her escape. Aravis, on the other hand, had had some preparation for understanding that a person's goodness was not necessarily related to where they stood in the social scale, by the time she had spent up till then with Shasta and the Horses.

I don't think Lasaraleen was a bad person. She was an upper-class girl for whom life was one long party, and it never occurred to her that anything could go wrong. So she thought that Aravis, who was in a similar position to her, was mad to reject that lifestyle. But she still loved her friend, given that she was still prepared to go through with helping her to escape, even though she had to be bullied a bit, and given that she still embraced Aravis affectionately when they parted. I like to think that years later, when Aravis was Queen of Archenland, Lasaraleen would have received an invitation to visit Anvard.

I think the thing that changed Aravis' mind the most was seeing Shasta run up to what she believed to be a wild lion in order to save her. When she drugged her maid, it wasn't just a necessary act to effect her escape, she despised her maid because she said she was a spy of her stepmother's. So I think Aravis might have hoped that the maid had been beaten and been rather glad of it (a bit like me, aged 11, hoping that the school bullies who intimidated me would themselves get beaten up by people bigger than themselves). Had it not been for Shasta's self-sacrifice, she may have understood what Aslan's actions meant but I don't think she would have been truly sorry.

I think that Aravis is a good reminder that people can be "good", but they still mess up. As one of the protagonists, she usually makes the right choices. However, she obviously has flaws. She is rude to Shasta and they both immediately judge each other. On the other hand, she sticks to her morals and ideals. Even though Ahoshta is incredibly rich, she refuses to marry him. She is a very admirable character. The audience grows with her and learns the same lessons of humbleness and to not judge a book by its cover.

I was thinking that the contrast between Aravis and Lasaraleen is rather like the contrast between Lucy and Susan. Aravis is more of a tomboy, being interested in outdoor pursuits, while Lasaraleen is more "girly" (apologies for sounding like a right male chauvinist pig). Similarly, Lucy (as an adult) goes into battles alongside Edmund, while Susan is "more like an ordinary grown-up lady" as Corin says, and stays at home.

I get the feeling from the tone of the narrative that Lewis approved more of Aravis and Lucy than Lasaraleen and Susan. Aravis and Lucy achieve good things; Lasaraleen and Susan, whilst they may be good people, are ineffectual. (Again, a complete contrast to the Walden movie version of Susan, more like Xena than the character in the book.)

One of my favorite things in HHB is how each character gets an enormous blessing out of their journey of faith. I think Aravis's may have been one of the most complex blessings. On the surface, she gained (or kept) her freedom, helped to save Narnia and Archenland, was wounded by a Lion, left behind while Shasta went on, and then ended up with a home at Anvard, eventually becoming queen.
Perhaps I can identify with some of her weaknesses, and hope to emulate her strengths. I could hardly stand her at the beginning. Her heartlessness to Shasta and the slave girl made me shake my head and shudder, respectively. Perhaps the uncomfortable thing for me is that, in her place, I would have probably done the exact same thing...if I had the courage to escape. In her defense, I think that she probably felt the slave girl was an extension of her step-mother ("she was only a tool and spy of my stepmother's" to closely paraphrase). Personally, I think that it was Aravis' attitude that Aslan was punishing, not the fact that Aravis drugged her knowing what would happen.
I think that Aravis changed the most in Tashbaan. She saw how hollow the Calormene system was, and how the Tisroc himself was a wicked, selfish, tyrant.
She realized that she would be "a nobody" when she arrived North - and that was a liberating realization. The change was almost complete, but there was still the pride, heartlessness, and underestimation of others that needed to be stripped away. I think one of the most disappointing moments in the story was when she looked prim when Shasta had no shoes across the desert.
It is interesting to me that the first friendly words I remember her saying regarding Shasta are said when she comes to at the Hermit's. She is exhausted, sore, humbled, wonders about her friend, and realizes that the mission can - and will - be finished without her. She does not yet know the meaning of her wounds, but I have a hard time believing that she may not have remembered the slave.
I could certainly identify with her lack of sympathy for others, and recently had my come-downance (rather than come-uppance) about it. I needed to know what it felt like to have a friend judge me harshly, misunderstand me, and believe me, I have thought often of Aravis
I think that in with her recent memory of the cruel Calormenes, Shasta's true nobility in trying to save her shown more brightly. Perhaps it also reminded her of her brother...we are not told much about him, but it sounded as if he and Aravis had been good friends. I wondered also if after the Anvard battle was over, she was sort of more at peace with the fact that he had died years earlier...if not, would he have been in the battle?
In my opinion, Lasaraleen in her attempts to be super-feminine had missed the boat. Aravis was more feminine. If being feminine is about worrying about clothes, hair and gossip all the time, count me out! I love cooking, sewing, and wear dresses all the time, but I love bicycling, walk nearly 2.5 miles a day, am interested in outdoor survival, and hope to take up archery soon. (Partly inspired by Lucy, Aravis, Jill, etc.) To me, it isn't at all conflicting, but that it all is equally feminine. Many of the Bible women were strong, brave, and beautiful, and I love how the main Narnian women and girls echo that theme. End of rabbit trail.
Isn't it interesting also how Aslan visits the Hermit's home just before Shasta comes? It seems like a new beginning for them all, especially Aravis and Bree. I thought it was interesting that Aravis seemed more willing to leave her old self behind than Bree did.
One last thought - am I alone in hoping that one day Aravis somehow sent a message and purchased (then, of course, immedietly freed) the slave girl? She probably didn't, but that would have been neat.

No, you aren't the only one who hopes that later on, Aravis might have intervened to remedy the wrong she did to the slave girl. Though I rather expect that the slave girl found the courage to run away, or maybe she was on-sold to someone else who treated her more fairly.

I could hardly stand her at the beginning. Her heartlessness to Shasta and the slave girl made me shake my head and shudder, respectively. Perhaps the uncomfortable thing for me is that, in her place, I would have probably done the exact same thing...if I had the courage to escape. In her defense, I think that she probably felt the slave girl was an extension of her step-mother ("she was only a tool and spy of my stepmother's" to closely paraphrase). Personally, I think that it was Aravis' attitude that Aslan was punishing, not the fact that Aravis drugged her knowing what would happen.

Yes, I think it was Aravis' attitude that Aslan was punishing in particular. It is hardly fair for Aravis to blame an underling for well, being an underling, when the slave girl had no choice but to do what Aravis' stepmother told her to do. Shasta, who had also been treated harshly, could understand that. Why couldn't Aravis? That the slave girl was beaten for letting Aravis out of her sight was the only real instance that we have that the step-mother was a nasty person, really.

Do we have any evidence otherwise that Aravis was ill-treated by her stepmother? She was lucky to have a maid at all, let alone keep her own horse etc. It seems though Aravis had been treated well and with affection, when her father's secretary was prepared to write a letter for her. It isn't too hard to imagine that Aravis' stepmother might have merely considered Aravis to be somewhat too prideful, and needed taking down a peg or two.

When we first meet Aravis we learn that she is the great-great granddaughter of Ilsombreh Tisroc. And that accordingly, Kidrash Tarkaan, Aravis' father, was one of the very few people who had the privilege of standing before the Tisroc. Like Rabadash, and unlike Ahoshta Tarkaan. This is one of the first things we learn about Aravis.

I keep wondering exactly why Aravis didn't want to marry Ahoshta. Was it mostly because he was 'base born'? Or was it because he was old and ugly? For that matter, do we ever see Lazaraleen's husband? Or do we ever think to ask what he was like? For all we know, Lazaraleen's husband could be equally old and ugly. We don't even get to know if he got to stand before the Tisroc, even if he is high-born, or whether or not he had to grovel, like everyone else.

So I think her attitude generally was dictated by the very rigid class structure in Calormen

No doubt this is true. After all, there was only one traffic rule in Tashbaan. People who were less important had to get out of the way of people who were more important. And it isn't as if Lazaraleen doesn't have the same attitude to her slaves. Lazaraleen is almost comical when she threatens to have her slaves 'boiled alive, beaten to death, then forced to live on bread and water', I think it was. Gruesome, over-the-top punishments which show how little they thought of consequences to other people, even if those punishments were never meted out.

Lasaraleen and Susan, whilst they may be good people, are ineffectual.

I think, Lady Rosalia, that you have the right idea to a point, when you say that it might be limiting to be interested only in clothes, hair and gossip, like Lazaraleen. But I think that it wasn't a matter of Aravis not being interested in these things. It was more the case that Lazaraleen was really only interested in her own clothes, her own grooming, and her own interests at parties etc, whilst Aravis had to stew in isolation at home and escape dressed in totally inappropriate and demeaning slave gear.

It isn't as if Aravis and Lucy couldn't get together to discuss clothes at Anvard. I think it was more the case that Aravis, and certainly Lucy, were better able to relate to fellow creatures than was Lazaraleen. Aravis mourned for both her lost mother and her brother, she was friends with her horse, Hwin, though it must have been a shock to her when Bree told her that she was as much Hwin's girl as Hwin was Aravis' horse. Even though Aravis ill-treated her maid, her father's old secretary seemed to be fond of her.

I don't think Lazaraleen was ineffectual, either. Merely overawed by the high-born company she had been allowed to keep, all as unthinking and self-centred as she is, herself. And, like Susan, not one to really question the conventions she lived under. After all, Lazaraleen was only a 14 year old girl, who, like Aravis, had been married off in what was probably an arranged marriage.

I think that getting Aravis through the Tisroc's palace was the first really unselfish thing Lazaraleen had been required to do for anyone else in her life. And it was the first time in Laz's life she had had to think seriously about the consequences of her own actions. It says heaps about Lazaraleen that she was prepared to stick her neck out for Aravis. Would Lazaraleen have been able to do as much as she did, or even play the mad jokes she said she did, if her husband had been around? I rather doubt that if he had been present in her household that Lazaraleen's husband would let her even parade around Tashbaan to show off a new dress.

Am I the only one to hope that while Lazaraleen enjoys her lovely life, that she doesn't do or say anything to reveal her responsibility in helping Aravis's escape? As for Susan, I think that again it was a matter of bowing to convention when she allowed herself to go to Tashbaan with prospects of marrying Rabadash. The trouble is, that if she had accepted Rabadash, what would the consequences to herself, to Narnia, and to her siblings have been?

Waggawerewolf27 wrote:

I think, Lady Rosalia, that you have the right idea to a point, when you say that it might be limiting to be interested only in clothes, hair and gossip, like Lazaraleen. But I think that it wasn't a matter of Aravis not being interested in these things. It was more the case that Lazaraleen was really only interested in her own clothes, her own grooming, and her own interests at parties etc, whilst Aravis had to stew in isolation at home and escape dressed in totally inappropriate and demeaning slave gear.

It isn't as if Aravis and Lucy couldn't get together to discuss clothes at Anvard. I think it was more the case that Aravis, and certainly Lucy, were better able to relate to fellow creatures than was Lazaraleen.

I agree! Sorry if I gave the idea that it's wrong to like pretty clothes, hair, accessories, etc. I love them all! What I meant was, it seems to me that outdoor/ "adventureous" interests are sometimes considered "unfeminine", while being interested exclusively in "girly stuff" is "feminine." To me, being strong is part of being feminine. One thing I loved about Lucy was that she seemed to have a good balance...doesn't it mention that she and Aravis were discussing clothes when Lucy arrived at Anvard?
One book that has really helped me with this is Captivating, by John and Stasi Eldredge.

Aravis has learned that her actions have long term consequences. That they may not just affect her and nobody else.

And that Aslan will make sure they are fair. That only Aslan can hand out the discipline. Sorry, but I am sensitive about disproportionate retribution due to my being judged way too harshly when I have made mistakes in the past and bad things happened that were NOT a result of the errors I made.

Aravis learned that not only was being alone better than being in bad company- but better than being in mediocre company. I am pretty sure Lasaraleen's husband was not an abusive monster like Ahoshta Tarkhaan- but she was not in love with him either, only marrying him to get financial security and social status.

Most important, Aravis learned to never give up. That things can, do, and will get better.

And that Aslan is a more caring deity than Tash and Zardeenah (and anyone else the Calormenes worshipped) could ever be.

I am pretty sure Lasaraleen's husband was not an abusive monster like Ahoshta Tarkhaan- but she was not in love with him either, only marrying him to get financial security and social status.

I'm also fairly sure that somewhere Bree said that all Calormene girls married about age 14 in all the big Tarkaan families, though I haven't checked out the references. Since Aravis and Lazaraleen were classmates it makes sense that they were the same age, that is to say, far too young for either girl to decide for themselves who they should marry, or from our Western point of view, to be married at all. As in other analogous societies, where girls are married off young by their families, I am sure that Lazaraleen's marriage was arranged by her family with her financial security and social status in mind. Whom she would have liked to marry, herself, was a secondary consideration.

When Aravis' marriage was first proposed, financial security definitely was a consideration, but obviously, Aravis' social status was to be set aside, hence, I think, her discomfiture at having to marry Ahoshta. As in all such marriages it is how the family as a whole benefits, not the prospective bride, even if nightmares about her future security does haunt the darkest dreams of the parents of the bride.

And as in similarly militaristic societies, where the accumulation of wealth and social status are the main reasons for selecting a bridegroom, it is extremely unlikely that Lazaraleen's husband is any more likely than Ahoshta to be the tall, dark and handsome romantic figure (um, er, Rabadash?) that most young girls of 14 or so would prefer to marry. The trouble is with such societies is that their young men often have to survive military service before getting a chance to marry.

Two questions:

1. Where do you get this idea that Lasaraleen and Aravis were classmates? The book never gives us this information, and merely tells us that the two of them know each other, and are friends with one another.

2. Bree tells Shasta (when he questions about Aravis' marrying at her age), when Aravis is telling her story, "Shasta, don't display your ignorance. They're always married at that age in the great Tarkhaan families."

Two questions:

1. Where do you get this idea that Lasaraleen and Aravis were classmates? The book never gives us this information, and merely tells us that the two of them know each other, and are friends with one another.

p. 35 (end of Ch 2). "For in Calormen, story-telling (whether the stories are true or made-up) is a thing you are taught..."

p. 78 (beginning Ch. 7) "She knew Lasaraleen quite well, almost as if they had been at school together - because they had often stayed in the same houses and been to the same parties. And Aravis couldn't help looking up to see what Lasaraleen looked like now that she was married and a very great person indeed."

p. 173. "And to this day in Calormene schools if you do anything unusually stupid, you are very likely to be called 'a second Rabadash'.

Presumably they did have schools, Aravis and Lasaraleen did get some sort of education, unlike Shasta, and Aravis and Lasaraleen had sufficient contact with each other to be almost like classmates. I know I should have checked out the references beforehand.

I doubt that Lasaraleen was much more than a few months or at most a year or so older than Aravis, because of the way Aravis spoke to her. Surely she would not have told a much older Lasaraleen to shut up, which she did more than once. Especially as Lasaraleen does seem to have married one of the biggest fish in the Calormene society's food chain.

But he must have been something of a cold fish if Lasaraleen has to parade around Tashbaan to get her nice new dress noticed.

2. Bree tells Shasta (when he questions about Aravis' marrying at her age), when Aravis is telling her story, "Shasta, don't display your ignorance. They're always married at that age in the great Tarkhaan families."

That would have been about 14, since the Pevensies had a reign of about 15 years, I have heard. References?

1. Arsheesh says: p.15 (Ch 1) "But in that same year as the Tisroc (may he live forever) began his august and beneficient reign....and a child, still living". The child was Shasta.

2. p.41 Shasta says: "You're not grown up, I don't believe you're any older than I am. I don't believe you're as old. How could you be getting married at your age?"

3. p.91 Grand Vizier (Ahoshta) says: :Know, O enlightened Prince....that until the year in which your exalted father began his...reign, the land of Narnia was covered with ice and snow and was moreover ruled by a most powerful enchantress"

I expect that the events of LWW coincided with the coming of a new Tisroc to the Calormene throne and the abduction of Shasta. And I expect, for COPPA reasons, that 13 or 14 would be "that age in the great Tarkaan families", as Bree mentioned.

I always imagined Lasaraleen to be older than Aravis, and I'm sorry, but I do not consider those passages "evidence" that they went to school together. Yes, I guess they show that there were schools in Calormen, but I don't think you can extrapolate that Lasaraleen and Aravis were in school together.

I always imagined Lasaraleen to be older than Aravis, and I'm sorry, but I do not consider those passages "evidence" that they went to school together. Yes, I guess they show that there were schools in Calormen, but I don't think you can extrapolate that Lasaraleen and Aravis were in school together.

Yes, Lasaraleen would be older than Aravis, but not necessarily by much more than a year or so. If "that age" was 13 or 14, I doubt that Lasaraleen would be much more than 15 or 16 at most, still too young really to be considered a married woman. I don't think it is wrong to assume that Aravis hadn't seen Lasaraleen once the latter had married, as in this passage: "And Aravis couldn't help looking up to see what Lasaraleen looked like now that she was married and a very great person indeed".

And no, they probably didn't go to school together the way we understand 'going to school'. That is to say, sitting in a classroom with many others with books etc. Probably both Aravis and Lasaraleen were instructed by their families' slaves in basics, at least up to a point. I can't see Aravis' stepmother being able to instruct Aravis much, if only because they had such a poor relationship.

And yes, I would agree that all those parties and staying at houses, where Aravis and Lasaraleen made friends, is by our standards somewhat extra-curricular. But I still think that in line with medieval girls' education, and for long afterwards, that all those parties and staying at the same houses, since they provided a social setting, could well have also included school-like sessions in deportment, fashion and personal grooming for young well-born lasses, maybe something along the lines of finishing schools of the 19th century.

You know the sort of thing. How low do you grovel to the Tisroc? What is the correct way to address a more important Tarkaan or a less important Tarkeena? Dancing, most likely. The correct way to tell a story, and which is the right sort of outfit to wear when meeting the Tisroc, meeting Rabadash or meeting one's prospective husband? Which sort of outfit does the various ranks of slaves have to wear. Not to mention the correct cut of one's horse's tail.

Oh I can just see it. I'm sure that Aravis and Lasaraleen would have been educated to deal with party-going and the sort of life that Lasaraleen, at least, would be expected to live. Much depends anyway on what you call school, what you call a party (tupperware, Calormene-style, anyone?) and what was going on to justify young girls going to houseparties. Also, school doesn't have to be within specially designated four walls. It could be nothing more than a stack of books littering the lounge room floor. Or it could be a ball room or an oval for the local dog obedience school.

I think education for a young Tarkheena would take place in her own home. She wouldn't be sent anywhere to receive instruction with other children, although this might have been more possible for her elder brother.

Therefore I don't think the girls would have got their education together, other than what they might learn from being at a party together. But the parties would be where they got to know each other, and where they got close over the years.