It could possibly go either way: Aslan as a male just voiced by an actress (I’ve seen animated movies or series where a male character is actually voiced by an actress) or the possible rumor of Aslan being changed into a female. But as nothing has been confirmed as of yet, I’m sure there are other actors out there that would be qualified to voice Aslan. Then there’s the challenge of getting Aslan right. Whoever voices him, getting him right should at least count for something.

Now, I haven’t had time to go back and read everything that’s been said, and someone may have already made this point, but isn’t it worth considering that all this back and forth about authorial intent, theology, and Christianity might be part of an intentional dialogue that Gerwig herself wants to engage in?

As we know, Lewis once described Aslan as “an invention giving an imaginary answer to the question, ‘What might Christ become like if there really were a world like Narnia and He chose to be incarnate and die and rise again in that world as He actually has done in ours?’”

So, with that in mind, seeing Aslan not as a literal reproduction of Christ in every detail, but as an imaginative response to a theological question, what if Gerwig’s choice to portray Aslan with a female voice (or even form) is not a betrayal of Lewis’s intent, but a continuation of the imaginative experiment he began? Lewis invited us to explore what the incarnation might look like in another world. Gerwig may simply be offering another, perhaps more complex, answer for a new generation.

Probably no one can force Greta Gerwig to cast a male actor for Aslan or have him be a lion instead of a lioness. I guess it is all legal in the casting as far as Greta and Meryl Streep are concerned. The petition, which I have already signed, may encourage both of them to change their minds. They have the freedom to make the movie as they please, but many fans of the books may be disappointed in the film, which could affect its box office performance.

I saw a very interesting comment under the latest Talking Beasts episode by MT. I'm not sure if MT is part of the forum (maybe under another name?), but I thought I would quote it here:

Thinking about Meryl Streep and the talk you had earlier in this episode about hinting the older/deeper magic brought me to some ideas. Imagine Meryl Streep being Aslan but not a lion.
From what we see in the books every world has his own appearance of Aslan. Our world’s Aslan is supposed to be Jesus. Narnia’s Aslan is, well Aslan. When we look at this. we see a male saviour in a patriarchal society. It’s a lion in a animal world, and I wouldn’t be surprised by a mother like figure in a world like charn which looks to be a somewhat matriarchal world. So she could play the Aslan figure of Jadis’ homeworld. Maybe Jadis will even partially see her instead of a lion during the creation of Narnia.
Just my 2 ct.

This is both a scenario that I personally would have no problem with, and is also the most plausible I have heard so far that doesn't include making Aslan a lioness.

I said before, my problem with a female Aslan is mainly adaptational and not theological, and I've since realized there is a simple way of testing this. Suppose, instead of a lioness, they made Aslan a man in the new adaptations. I would dislike it just as much, even though it would be a representation of Christ even closer to how he appeared in our world. There is the added dimension that making Aslan female would feel designed to elicit outrage in a way that making him human wouldn't (whether that's the intention or not). But the main thing is... a female Aslan or a human Aslan just wouldn't be Aslan.

But Aslan appearing in Charn as matriarchal queen figure.... interesting! I can't believe my mind never went there before, but I never considered how he appeared in Charn. It's never explicitly mentioned that Charn is a matriarchal world, but it isn't much of a stretch. It may be significant that Jadis and her sister were fighting for control of the world rather than Jadis and her brother or an uncle or something. I can see the logic of making the Aslan-figure female there.

Another intriguing angle to this is that it would give Jadis and Aslan a history before they meet in Narnia. Maybe the Aslan of that world serves as the High Queen, whom the queens of that world are answerable to, in a similar way to how the rulers of Narnia are kings and queens under Aslan. And maybe, when Jadis decides to war against her sister, a rift is created between her and the Aslan of that world.

I'm trying to not get my hopes up. This is just speculation after all. But... this is intriguing. It would make a lot of things suddenly make sense.  

@reepicheep775 I thought that was one of the better ideas too. Except I'd fear it would be contrived to show Aslan in Charn. With some Narnia books, I'd be interested in expanding on some characters and subplots but to me, The Magician's Nephew is sort of perfect, and I don't want them messing with it. (I don't think that's just because it's my favorite. I love The Horse and his Boy equally, but I'd be interested to see an adaptation expand on certain characters like Lasaraleen or Aravis's father.) Also, Netflix is making a movie now, not a miniseries like Douglas Gresham was initially interested in doing, so any time spent on new stuff will mean less time given to stuff from the book. 

Also, for the record, whether or not I have firm beliefs about the gender of God, I know that a lot of fans do, and while I don't believe anyone adapting Narnia should pander to that section of the fanbase, it'd bug me if it seemed like they were going out of their way to alienate those fans. 

But, as you say, I'd have much less of a problem with that if it was a subplot in Charn's backstory than in the main plot and it could definitely be well done. 

Posted by: @jasmine_tarkheena

I’m sure there are other actors out there that would be qualified to voice Aslan. Then there’s the challenge of getting Aslan right. Whoever voices him, getting him right should at least count for something.

In spite of all the problems that a female non-maned Lion would cause, I do actually think that Greta Gerwig gets the other parts of Aslan's character if you listen to the way she speaks about working with Meryl Streep previously.

Much like Aslan, she describes working with Meryl Streep very much in terms of dichotomies - being absolutely terrified of her, and yet in awe of her knowledge and wisdom about filmmaking.... Daunting and yet thrilling ... Intimatading and uncomfortable, yet ultimately rewarding.

https://www.landmarkcinemas.com/movie-news/greta-gerwig-was-intimidated-by-meryl-streep-on-little-women

I can very much imagine that her opening conversation with the Casting Director was that she wanted to find someone who would make the children feel the way she felt in the presence of Meryl Steep... and perhaps things just evolved from there.

As you say though, there's still a lot we don't yet know, and we've made our voice on the matter very much heard, so not much more we can do but wait now.

Fingers crossed for a positive outcome.

Posted by: @jasmine_tarkheena

It could possibly go either way: Aslan as a male just voiced by an actress (I’ve seen animated movies or series where a male character is actually voiced by an actress) or the possible rumor of Aslan being changed into a female. But as nothing has been confirmed as of yet, I’m sure there are other actors out there that would be qualified to voice Aslan. Then there’s the challenge of getting Aslan right. Whoever voices him, getting him right should at least count for something.

And I couldn't agree more. Just looking around me and listening to voices, there is no hard and fast measurement of the range & depth of average male and female voices. How many women could reach Sarah Brightman's soprano tones (as Christine) in Phantom of the Opera, & how many men could sing in the same bass tones of Lee Marvin ("I was born under a wandering star") in Paint your Wagon? Listen to "At the back of the holy temple", a duet between a tenor and a baritone, in The Pearl Fishers, to get a musical idea of what I've been trying to say. As a child, I adored listening in class, to Peter and the Wolf, an introduction to the different musical instruments in the orchestra. I remember lecturers & preachers with honeyed but monotonous middling tenor male voices that left me struggling to stay awake to concentrate on what they are trying to say. I listen to the gravelly tones of a bloke on the radio, denying he is a robot, explaining to us that damage to his larynx and respiratory system was due to a heavy smoking habit, & why his voice is more suited to Mullugutherum's midnight tones in Silver Chair rather than Aslan's rich baritone or bass, not sure which. How would a lion sing, anyway? In a rather rumbling, growling sort of voice? A bit like a cat manages to do? 

There also seems to be an acting or singing convention that male or female, the younger the actor the higher the voice, and the older & more experienced the character is supposed to be the deeper the voice. Thanks to a lifetime of respiratory problems, I reckon that sometimes I could give Star Wars' Darth Vader a run for his money, complete with heavy wheezing behind his mask. Given that Meryl Streep is 75, she might even find it more comfortable to speak in a somewhat deeper voice, than what she has been used to, previously. 

@PrinceRillianIX  Now, I haven’t had time to go back and read everything that’s been said, and someone may have already made this point, but isn’t it worth considering that all this back and forth about authorial intent, theology, and Christianity might be part of an intentional dialogue that Gerwig herself wants to engage in?

Perhaps you are right, though I don't think NarniaWeb is the only fan website that might have an interest in Greta Gerwig's MN production, though it might be interesting if Talking Beasts could secure an interview with her, some time, some way down the production line.  

Posted by: @rilianix

So, with that in mind, seeing Aslan not as a literal reproduction of Christ in every detail, but as an imaginative response to a theological question, what if Gerwig’s choice to portray Aslan with a female voice (or even form) is not a betrayal of Lewis’s intent, but a continuation of the imaginative experiment he began? Lewis invited us to explore what the incarnation might look like in another world. Gerwig may simply be offering another, perhaps more complex, answer for a new generation.

I have heard this argued, as I said somewhere before — I can't remember where the article was, sorry — and it's an interesting take on the whole debate. It could possibly be Gerwig's intention (or rationalisation), IF she is indeed planning to portray Aslan with a female voice and/or in a female form. Don't forget, we still don't know for sure if any of this is going to happen.

Considering the Christian God / Christ in feminine terms is actually not unprecedented — and I'm not just talking about the modern era. It's an idea that goes back centuries. The best example I know of is the medieval English female visionary Julian of Norwich, who lived from about 1342 AD till some time after 1415. At the age of 30, she became seriously ill, and while lying on what was expected to be her deathbed, contemplating a crucifix that was placed within her sight, she had a series of visions (or "showings", as she called them) that concluded with her finding herself restored to health. She became a religious recluse and apparently spent much of the rest of her life writing about those visions and meditating on all that she learned from them of God's love. One of the most striking features of her writings is that for a good portion of them, she writes of God / Christ explicitly as our Mother and describes the divine acts of creation and redemption and nurturing in feminine, mothering terms. Her book — there are many translations of it into modern English — is really worth reading if anyone's interested, but further discussions of that definitely belong in the "Christianity, Religion and Philosophy" thread in the Spare Oom, not here!  

So, a female or feminine Christ-figure would not be a totally new idea at all. And as I've said several times already, I'd be open to reading or watching a fantasy saga that featured such a figure, and would judge it on its own merits. I can imagine somebody creating a story like that as something of a tribute to Narnia, if you like — partly inspired by Lewis's own depiction of God / Christ as a lion, but taking this concept in a new direction. (A bit like a positive variation on the way Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials trilogy was partly inspired by Narnia — in that case, in a totally negative way.) 

But the point here is that Greta Gerwig and Netflix are not proposing to make a new fantasy series somewhat inspired by Narnia; they are making an actual adaptation of Narnia. And that, for me, is where it seriously grates.

Now I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that C.S. Lewis himself was familiar with Julian of Norwich's writings and I think he really appreciated them — I don't know where I picked that up, so if anybody could help with a reference, I'd be very grateful.   (There wouldn't have been much that he wasn't familiar with in medieval English literature, after all — it was his main area of academic study — AND he famously had a photographic memory for everything he read!!)

But, going by everything else I'm aware of that he wrote on theology and gender, I really do NOT think he would have been open to the idea of his own fictional Christ-figure, Aslan, being reimagined as female. We'll never know, of course, because he's not here to give his opinion, but I get the feeling he'd reject that proposal at least as strongly as he rejected the idea of Aslan being depicted on TV by a man standing upright and wearing a lion mask.

(I also forget where he made that comment, but he definitely did. Interestingly, that's exactly how Aslan was portrayed in the first-ever screen adaptation of The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe in 1967, of which only a few minutes of footage survive, including part of Aslan's conversation with the White Witch about the Deep Magic. But Lewis died a few years before that was made, so he wasn't around to complain, and obviously his estate allowed it at the time.)

And meanwhile, we still don't have any fully verified information at all about what actually IS being planned for Aslan in this Netflix production, so until that changes — and it must eventually — we still can't do anything but speculate back and forth...

I wonder if people will accept a male lion with a female voice.  They might be more willing to accept that than if Aslan appears as a lioness. But if people are accustomed to have someone with a deep voice portray Aslan it might be difficult to find someone female with such a voice. Meryl Streep probably has a high voice, and I am not so sure that she could lower it to play Aslan. How Aslan sounds on the screen is very important.

Posted by: @narnian78

I wonder if people will accept a male lion with a female voice.  They might be more willing to accept that than if Aslan appears as a lioness. … How Aslan sounds on the screen is very important.

 

Agreed - though perhaps if Streep could pull off something like Cate Blanchett in “I’m not here” it might be okay. I haven’t seen that movie but I’ve heard several people say that Cate gave best performance as Bob Dylan. It’s a stretch, but Meryl Streep is a very good actress, so maybe she can do an impressive male lion voice.  Having said that, I still I’ll come back to ‘why not just cast a male actor with a natural range closer to what Aslan is described as - is casting Meryl Streep really going to serve the story better?’

@narnian78 I definitely agree. I know there have been a few comments here from people who reckon Meryl Streep would be fine as the voice of Aslan, even an outwardly male Aslan, but I just can't see that.

Aslan as written is a huge presence in all senses of the word. We're given to understand that his physical size can vary (and with a CGI rendition, that's not an issue on screen as it would be if they were using a puppet like the BBC TV version), but it's clear that he's significantly bigger than an ordinary lion. And he needs to have a commanding, powerful, absolutely magnificent aura about him. If that's not reflected in his voice, a great deal of the effectiveness of the character will be lost.

Others may think differently, but I honestly cannot imagine seeing the image of this towering, awesome, radiant-maned (and therefore ostensibly male) Lion and yet hearing him speak with a female voice. It would just be jarring and make the character feel totally wrong. As indeed it would feel to see the hugely imposing (but terrifying in a different way), stunningly beautiful, definitely female Jadis on screen and hearing her speak in a deep bass-baritone register!

Seriously — I've said it before and I'll say it again — Meryl Streep is an utterly brilliant voice actress, as she's shown for a remarkable range of female characters (from Lindy Chamberlain through Margaret Thatcher to Florence Foster Jenkins), but she is not going to be capable of producing an appropriate voice for a gigantic male Lion. Unless they're going to modify her voice after she's recorded her lines to make it sound a lot deeper and more masculine, but in that case, why employ a female voice actor in the first place?

The only way I can see Streep (or any other actress) genuinely making sense as a voice actor for Aslan is if they do actually portray Aslan as a female lion. Which, as we've all discussed, brings issues of its own. Whether it could ever be right to depict God / Christ in a female form is a matter of theological debate, on which different people will have different views, but it's definitely a highly controversial issue and, as we've already seen, potentially a complete turn-off for a significant number of Narnia fans.

And once again, it's something that Lewis himself, going by all we know of him, would not have seen as acceptable for the character he created (whether it's Aslan being portrayed as a male lion with a female voice, or outright as a lioness).

I just keep on reminding myself that we still do not know what Gerwig and Netflix are actually planning to do with Aslan — and once we do know for sure, THEN we can judge.

@Courtenay   And meanwhile, we still don't have any fully verified information at all about what actually IS being planned for Aslan in this Netflix production, so until that changes — and it must eventually — we still can't do anything but speculate back and forth...

And that is exactly right. In today's New Idea, on page 35 there is a mushy, gossipy article featuring Meryl Streep and her co-star, Martin Short, who were seen in New York City, "on set for the upcoming fifth season of their hit crime comedy, "Only Murders in the Building", where they play a married couple". Meryl Streep and Martin Short, I learned, are both 75 years old. So, at the moment, Meryl Streep is otherwise occupied with working in a USA comedy series, regardless of what the New Idea likes to speculate about her & co-worker's private lives. I bolded what I consider the key sentence of the article, which in my opinion is more for publicity for the "upcoming season" of this comedy. 

In the light of that article, I wonder if the whole rumour is a misheard misunderstanding blown up out of proportion & out of context, especially when it wouldn't be the first or last time, some reporter or other thinks they've found a mountain when they were really looking at a molehill, on the search for that breathless scoop.   

@DavidD   Agreed - though perhaps if Streep could pull off something like Cate Blanchett in “I’m not here” it might be okay. I haven’t seen that movie, but I’ve heard several people say that Cate gave best performance as Bob Dylan. It’s a stretch, but Meryl Streep is a very good actress, so maybe she can do an impressive male lion voice.

That is the assumption I've been working on when Aslan, whoever plays the part, will surely be a CGI production, possibly with a whole team's dancing attendance on the part, to bring it to life. Whether or not Meryl Streep is cast as Aslan, himself, is turned into a lioness, when they couldn't get the mane right, or merely as a helpful lioness, on the side, she wouldn't even need a wig for the mane that I joked about, when whoever the person is speaking the part won't be seen at all and is hopefully not just a stunt man all dressed up in a lion suit.  

@narnian78   Meryl Streep probably has a high voice, and I am not so sure that she could lower it to play Aslan. How Aslan sounds on the screen is very important.

We'd have to be certain of that, when according to the information in this week's New Idea, she is already aged 75, an age when many people are already thinking of retirement. I've already pointed out that people's voices can also deepen as they grow older, not only because of heavy smoking consumption but also through illness or wear and tear. I suppose I could watch this crime comedy series, if it, too, is shown on Netflix, if anyone else in the family is interested, which I don't think they would be. 

@icarus   Much like Aslan, she describes working with Meryl Streep very much in terms of dichotomies - being absolutely terrified of her, and yet in awe of her knowledge and wisdom about filmmaking.... Daunting and yet thrilling ... Intimatading and uncomfortable yet ultimately rewarding.

From your description, it sounds like Greta Gerwig holds Meryl Streep in great respect, which suggests to me that she was more interested in Meryl Streep's opinions as a consultant in the project rather than auditioning her to act the part as Aslan. 

Posted by: @waggawerewolf27

And that is exactly right. In today's New Idea, on page 35 there is a mushy, gossipy article featuring Meryl Streep and her co-star, Martin Short, who were seen in New York City, "on set for the upcoming fifth season of their hit crime comedy, "Only Murders in the Building", where they play a married couple". Meryl Streep and Martin Short, I learned, are both 75 years old. So, at the moment, Meryl Streep is otherwise occupied with working in a USA comedy series, regardless of what the New Idea likes to speculate about her & co-worker's private lives. I bolded what I consider the key sentence of the article, which in my opinion is more for publicity for the "upcoming season" of this comedy. 

In the light of that article, I wonder if the whole rumour is a misheard misunderstanding blown up out of proportion & out of context, especially when it wouldn't be the first or last time, some reporter or other thinks they've found a mountain when they were really looking at a molehill, on the search for that breathless scoop.   

Now that's an interesting snippet from a good (?) old Aussie gossip magazine that my late gran used to read.   And it's a good point. It could be that the reason why Netflix hasn't said anything to confirm or deny the "Meryl Streep as Aslan" rumour is because it's a complete furphy and they just don't care to dignify it with a response.

I'm guessing — or hoping — that if it was true, then by now Netflix would have confirmed it, as they've confirmed who they've chosen for the role of Jadis. They may well just be figuring that at least the rumour has got more and more people talking and speculating wildly about the new Narnia movie, and in a few more weeks or months, they'll reveal their actual choice for Aslan — a very capable male actor (well, most of us hope) — and we'll all breathe a huge sigh of relief and get on with looking forward to the production.

I still think that's not very good handling of PR, but it seems to be how Netflix works — keeping totally shtum on everything until they figure it's time for the next big reveal — and hey, I'm not an expert...

That is the assumption I've been working on when Aslan, whoever plays the part, will surely be a CGI production, possibly with a whole team's dancing attendance on the part, to bring it to life. Whether or not Meryl Streep is cast as Aslan, himself, is turned into a lioness, when they couldn't get the mane right, or merely as a helpful lioness, on the side, she wouldn't even need a wig for the mane that I joked about, when whoever the person is speaking the part won't be seen at all and is hopefully not just a stunt man all dressed up in a lion suit.  

Yes, but as we've also discussed, the question is not whether or not Meryl Streep would be capable of providing the voice of a CGI character, but whether or not she in particular would be the right choice for this specific role, whether it's a male Aslan with Streep's voice or a female Aslan with Streep's voice. The vast majority of Narnia fans (going by what we've seen) are not happy with either option.  

As for Streep's age, I remember someone bringing that up earlier. Given that Netflix is ostensibly aiming to make films of all seven books in the series, and each film is likely to take at least two years to produce... if Meryl Streep really is going to provide Aslan's voice, and they're wanting to keep that the same throughout the series, does she really want to be doing this up until she's nearly 90, or potentially even older??

@icarus   Much like Aslan, she describes working with Meryl Streep very much in terms of dichotomies - being absolutely terrified of her, and yet in awe of her knowledge and wisdom about filmmaking.... Daunting and yet thrilling ... Intimatading and uncomfortable yet ultimately rewarding.

From your description, it sounds like Greta Gerwig holds Meryl Streep in great respect, which suggests to me that she was more interested in Meryl Streep's opinions as a consultant in the project rather than auditioning her to act the part as Aslan. 

I'm in agreement with that too (and forgot to reply to your post earlier, @icarus). It really could be that Gerwig has been gushing about how awed she is by Meryl Streep and all the wisdom she brings to a filming project, and somebody heard this and put two and two together about what role Greta wants Meryl to play in Narnia...  

Hey all! It's been a while. Just coming here to drop a thought that I couldn't find by searching. I'm very concerned about Greta's choice of Meryl, however, I am not freaking out quite yet since nothing is confirmed. That said - even if Meryl isn't cast, the idea of a woman voicing Aslan could still happen. The fact that she is thinking this way as a Director knowing full well that it might upset a fan base is curious to me. The fact that Netflix isn't cramping the decision yet is also curious because they have had some financial struggles. 

So...I've had to ask myself what could they be thinking if this is the direction they go. Knowing Greta's influences and how she does deep homework for the thing she writes makes me wonder if:

1) Meryl won't be the ONLY voice of Aslan. 
2) Aslan's voice could be made of multiple voices.
3) Aslan's voice will change with each book/adventure in Narnia based on the story and adventure itself.

Number 3 is particularly interesting to me since the first film she is working on is The Magician's Nephew. The Magician's Nephew. 

If any of the books would give Aslan a feminine voice it would be that one. Genesis 1:2 says the Spirit of God hovers over the deep just before creation. The actual word used for the Holy Spirit in this instance is 'Ruach' - often used in the original Hebrew text as a feminine word and usually in the context of 'the breath of God' and even more specifically when the Breath of God is moving in an act of creation. This is what happens in The Magician's Nephew (a thing we FINALLY get to see!). Is it possible Greta is going to use a feminine voice because the original text does? 

Additionally, for readers of Planet Narnia, The Magician's Nephew is connected to Venus. It is the most feminine of all the stories. In it the contrast of the all powerful beautiful witch and Digory's quite weak and powerless mother is a central fulcrum of everything that changes Digory and effects the decisions he makes. 

What if (and this is all it is) Greta is going to follow a pattern of giving Aslan a changing voice in the same way the Hebrew text does? And if this is what they are doing, how on earth would they describe it in advance without weirding fans out?

My thoughts are to 1) first wait to see if any contracts are confirmed and 2) wait to see what they're thinking and 3) hope for the best from a director who seems to actually deeply love Narnia.

For me the most important thing for children to see in LWW in today's world is a male lion who empathizes with the (outwardly) least worthy Pevensie and lays himself down meekly in his place. The current cultural notion of masculine being at all times aggressive and ready for a fight can only be made worse by switching this beautiful sacrificial act into "something only a female would do."  We have enough of that going around. I want a male voice for LWW - but I may be ready to at least consider the idea of a feminine presence at Narnia's creation, since the Biblical text suggests the same. Or even a voice that embodies multiple voices.

Posted by: @cymru

The current cultural notion of masculine being at all times aggressive and ready for a fight can only be made worse by switching this beautiful sacrificial act into "something only a female would do." 

Funny you should mention that because I was just going to post something similar myself, only about The Magician's Nephew, not The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. 

One of the big emotional moments in MN is when Aslan, who has come across as stern and sort of heartless towards Digory, weeps over the prospect of his mother dying and shares in his grief. That's something people expect more from a woman. We probably shouldn't expect that because there are plenty of insensitive women and sensitive men, but we just can't seem to shake the idea. The moment could definitely still work with a gender flipped Aslan, assuming that Aslan's interactions with Digory start out stern as in the book, but I still feel like it'd be a bigger surprise with a male lion.

Posted by: @cymru

1) Meryl won't be the ONLY voice of Aslan. 
2) Aslan's voice could be made of multiple voices.
3) Aslan's voice will change with each book/adventure in Narnia based on the story and adventure itself.

While those possibilities would technically be closer to the books, I feel like Aslan just being female would actually work better artistically. Like mixing different actors' performances or even having a different voice in each movie sounds interesting but, practically speaking, it would be "interesting" in the sense of not being good. Most viewers wouldn't be able to concentrate on Aslan's words because they were so distracted by his (its?) voice. They shouldn't need to know everything about the Hebrew Bible to be able to appreciate the movie (though I know we all enjoyed reading your post, Cymru. Feel free to partake in the forum more often.)